This thread is reserved for your comments and ongoing discussion regarding the papers posted in the previous thread.
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By Bryan Laue One of the articles that caught my attention was the one posted by Jonathan Pawson which stated: “When talking to many different students about their thoughts of E. G. White, some say they don’t believe in her ministry as a prophet but that she was a good person and a founder of the church, while others say the complete opposite.” I have also seen these views among the membership. I really feel that there are a lot of misunderstanding in our church and in the general population about inspiration happens and the role and work of a prophet. I believe that until we put together a more complete and Christ centered, Biblical and relevant presentation of the role and work of a prophet we will continue to have these kinds of problems.
By Bryan Laue One of the articles that caught my attention was the one posted by Kevin Kim where he says: “In our attempt to validate our claim as the remnant as defined in the book of Revelation as those who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony (faith) of Jesus, we have put a registered trademark (R) after the "testimony of Jesus" as the "Spirit of Prophecy." I believe that this is so real for many of the people in our church today. We have limited our view of the Testimony of Jesus and the Spirit of Prophecy. We have gotten part of the answer yet we stop there and do not continue to study and learn what the more holistic meaning behind either of these statements. I believe that we must strive to bring out a more holistic meaning that again is Christ centered, Bible based and relevant to the world in which we live.
Comment on Jonathan Burnett’s “Ellen White a Spiritual Lazy Boy?”
I enjoyed reading Jonathan Burnett’s reflection on the misuse of Ellen White as a “spiritual lazy boy” and laughed out loud at the clever analogy of “Whitekido” as a type of defensive/offensive verbal martial art enjoyed by Adventists. It is true that sometimes we quote her with pride and intellectualism, thinking that somehow we are more spiritual just by uttering the words “Ellen White said…,” as if our halos glow brighter as we mention her name. One of the pivotal points of the paper is that “The same Spirit of Prophecy that inspired Ellen White is needed to fulfill her prophetic counsel in the hearts and lives of men and women today.” I think this is the most relevant point of application for us as individual Christians and as a Church. Rather than putting Ellen White on a pedestal, we should ask God to give each of us the Spirit of God, which is the testimony of Jesus. This testimony stems from our personal relationship with Him, where He endows us with the Spirit and gives us spiritual gifts so that our lives, words and actions can truly be a letter written to the world for all to see (2 Cor 3:2,3).
As to the greater understanding of the investigative judgment to be more than the one event of 1844, I appreciated Jonathan’s listing of the seven periods of judgment in the history of the world. The seven delineated judgments have global and universal significance. However, I would add that judgment of groups, nations and individuals should also be taught in context of 1844. God judged Cain and Abel. He judged Sodom and Gomorrah. He judged the Canaanite nations and Egypt. Each person and group had a long probation period where God showed His long-suffering and mercy. Not only is it important to teach the judgment a time when “God’s people are rescued from Satan and not accused by God,” but it is also vital to teach that the period leading up to the judgment is also when God is pleading for all to be saved. That is why we as the remnant church have an urgent and serious mission to reach others NOW, before the Judgment of the Second Coming or before the end of individual lives. The time before the judgment is the time to make OUR judgments between choosing God or Satan.
I was challenged by Jonathan’s contemplation of humanity, the “crowning act of God’s creation,” as frail beings who die “in just 4 inches of water” and in fire even though “God is described as being a consuming fire and we were made to live in His presence.” He proposes that after the fall, we fell under the law of nature but that Jesus showed that we are recreated in His image and can be above the law by walking on water, etc. That is a wonderful visualization of how He redeems us. We are no longer under the law – moral, ceremonial, natural (and I would add health) – BUT now we live in Christ, who brings us to a spiritual level higher than the letter of the law . . . so that now, we keep the law but on a higher plane, where we can walk on water spiritually as well as physically. As Pastor Cortes shared in chapel service this Wednesday, to spiritually walk on water is to conquer our sins and share in the victory of Christ. When we have our glorified bodies in heaven, it will be wonderful to see the fulfillment of the recreation of our mind, body and spirit into the perfect image of Christ.
Comment on “The Great Controversy” by Enno Mueller I agree with your statement that the Seventh-day Adventist understanding of the Great Controversy offers a degree of comfort, but in my opinion I don’t think that it makes life any easier for us. I understand what you meant by that, but I feel that having the knowledge of the spiritual warfare going on all around us and the origin of evil…etc, actually places a heavier burden on us for those that are on the in the dark about it all. But I’m sure you can agree with me when I say that though it is a difficult and heavy burden to carry, it is also a most wonderful and exciting work to do for the Lord! But like you, I realized through the reading and lectures in class that there is so much more to the Great Controversy than I had thought about or known about previously. Having discovered that, I’ve been challenged to do a deeper Bible study on it. Comment by Jonathan Kim
The article posted by Mitch Williams entitled, “The Dual Natures of Christ,” has helped me gain an even greater appreciation into the two natures of Christ. Williams points out that Christ did not use His divinity in ways unavailable to humans. While on earth, Christ gained an intimate understanding of human nature and can thus empathize with us. Ellen White says that when someone is born again they are connected to the divine power (MR 1003 August 4, 1983). What a sublime thought! Fallen man can be connected with the Divine nature of Christ. Christ was essentially born into this world as a “born-again”. When someone is born again they will be connected to the vine Jesus Christ and begin to reflect His fruits of character. Keeping our eyes on Him brings courage and strength to the Christian who is continually growing grace.
Comment on Enno Mueller’s Paper on “The Great Controversy”
I appreciated Enno’s honest reflection on his own weaknesses and desires in light of holistic interpretation and continual spiritual growth. I also question myself and feel my desperate need for God to give me a spirit of discernment and wisdom as well as open-mindedness and humility to learn from Him and others.
I agree with Enno that The Great Controversy is truly a “great blessing to the theology of our church.” The Great Controversy narrates the history of God’s solution to the sin-problem in powerful language and explains biblical doctrines in a compelling way. That is perhaps why it is such a great literature for evangelism. However, it should still be seen as a “blessing” and not the source of our theology. The Bible is our foundation, on which Ellen White herself built her writings on, and when we share The Great Controversy with a new believer, we should do so in conjunction with the Bible. I have made the mistake of thinking that I could give someone a copy of The Desire of Ages and The Great Controversy and that it would be enough for them to “see the light.” But as we learned in class, the prophetess’ writings are the lesser light pointing to the greater light and we have so many other revelations of God’s Spirit. The Bible should be the final authority.
I agree with Enno that it is so difficult to “hit the middle road” between liberalism and conservatism. In fact, I prefer not to use those labels anymore. As Professor Hanna pointed out, there are always two sides of the coin to legalism – you could be legalistic by judging on a letter of the law, and you can be legalistic by saying, “Don’t judge me by the letter of that law.” So who is really liberal or conservative? Those are labels we put to make ourselves feel more spiritual (no matter what side you’re on). The liberal feels smug saying that someone is “conservative” and the conservative feels proud saying someone is “liberal.” They are both expressing judgment. Rather than being distinguishing ourselves as straying to the right or left, we should focus on Jesus Christ, who will take us moment by moment down the narrow path, where we don’t have to worry about swerving as long as we’re following Him.
Enno pointed out a great observation, that when we are not following the light on an issue, we rationalize and justify ourselves in order to continue our status quo. On the other hand, when we think we ARE doing something “right,” we make it the “absolute truth” so that we can judge others by it and feel good about ourselves. Either way, we are rejecting God’s guidance in stubborn pride. Why is it so difficult to change? I think whenever we look at ourselves too much, we either grow proud (because of the “right” things we do, like morning devotions) or too guilt-stricken (because of the “wrong” things we do, like watch too much TV) . . . the best way to change is truly by beholding His beauty of holiness and letting that light reflect and absorb in us.
I have truly enjoyed reading your post and reflection letter. I especially enjoyed the emphasis that you placed upon the name 7th day Adventist. Our name is a sermon all together and should be broadcasted all over and placed upon everything we do. Thank you for sharing that. You have brought up some other great points as well that have left me pondering over the same topic. My perspective has been living in the States and I have been asking the question for quite some time. Why are there so many different views about Ellen White both good and bad, what has broken our unity on spiritual gifts of the church and pull out the spirit of prophecy from among the list? Thank you for your comments.
What do you think is the main cause for such criticism of Ellen White in the Netherlands?
Do you feel that the US has the same problem with her or do you see them coming from a completely different area?
I appreciated the reflection written by Emanuel Millen about Ellen White’s physical manifestations while under “inspiration”. Millen raises the intriguing point that these manifestations alone (i.e., not breathing while in vision, holding up a heavy bible over her head and pointing to various verses) are not enough to build the case for White having the gift of prophecy. Millen reminds us that the devil can also counterfeit unnatural phenomena, as was shown in the bible (i.e., the raising of Samuel). Therefore, when we evaluate whether Mrs. White had the gift of prophecy, we must look at all the evidence. Visions and dreams alone, along with their dramatic characteristics, is but a small part of showing proof that Mrs. White was inspired. Millen also points out that Ellen White was human, and therefore did make mistakes and even changed her position from time to time. This does not necessarily mean she was not inspired. This truth reminds us that we too are on a growth path. God will (if we surrender to Him) continue to mold us and make us into the person He requires (i.e., Moses, Peter and Paul), and as He did for Ellen White.
I have enjoyed your reflection paper because it hit home for me as well. Change is hard and needed for proper growth in everything that we do and if we don’t change we die. I once heard a saying: “The devil doesn’t care if you’re upstream or downstream, just as long as you’re extreme!” I think that is the main point that I pulled out of the class. We have to be very careful with the word of God and the Spirit of Prophecy and not abuse them in either direction. A balanced approach is what is needed in all that we do. Thank you for your comments.
Do you think that changing this thought of scriptures and Ellen White will be easy to do when you arrive at your church?
How will you take this new belief and administer it to a church that is conservative or a church that is Liberal keeping everything in balance?
Geraldine O'Neal in her “Reflections From Section V” gave an interesting insight into the fact that true prophets build on top of what previous prophets have said rather than say things contrary to them. Ellen White used scripture extensively in her testimonies and build on top of, rather than undermined scripture. She provided greater depth into various Biblical principles including those on enjoying a life full of good health and happiness. The well documented longevity of Adventists attest to the benefits of the health principles God gave to His people through His servant Ellen White. They were way ahead of her time and modern science has exonerated her prophetic gift in this area.
Comment on "A Drowning Elephant and Wading Baby" by Simona Mills First of all, you made an awesome point when you said, “I guess the key is in knowing when to wade, when to snorkel or when to put on your scuba gear when coming to scripture.” I find myself struggling with that as well. It seems that every day in class I learn that there is more and more depth to Scripture than I had ever imagined. That proves to me that this book has truly been inspired by God for only he could inspire one to write a string of words with so many layers beyond the surface. “Scripture can be deep enough to drown an elephant yet shallow enough for a babe to wade in,” is such a profound quote! I too have been challenged by our class discussions to approach Bible study with “three dimensional vision” – time, place, and circumstance. With the Spirit guiding me, I’m sure this new approach will bring a wonderful new perspective to my quiet times with God, but I also know that it’s going to shake up my spiritual foundations a bit as well. But I’m a believer that we need to have our faith shaken every once in a while in order for us to dig a little deeper in Scripture. I also agree that it’s refreshing to know that our prophetess took some time every once in a while to crack a couple of clean jokes here and there, between her busy life working for the Lord. - Comments by Jonathan Kim
Dani Carmona wrote an interesting reflection paper identifying the debate over whether Ellen White is a prophet as simply pure “Spiritual Warfare”. I agree with Carmona. The devil is in the middle of the debate about Ellen White’s authenticity and candidacy as a prophet. The devil has erected the White debate to create doubt about her role, her writings and her messages. What I find interesting is that those who attack her seldom have read her. Rather than studying Mrs. White’s writings, we are instead drawn to the works of other “safe” religious authors, all the while in search of truth. Carmona also points out that we are a church that seems to be slowly ebbing away from it’s recognition as the remnant church. Instead, many Adventists, even Pastors, appear to prefer the likeness of the mainline protestant churches, along with their methods of ministry. As Seventh-day Adventist future leaders, we have a responsibility to understand accurately the person of Ellen White, and our mission as a church. And getting it right means much prayer and study of the scripture which we always lead to truth.
Kendrick Cid thorough inspirational comment on the testimony of Jesus helps me to understand this concept with more enlightenment. By mentioning the Standpoint of Dr. Pauline convinces on his interest of the subject and clarifies the theory that the Testimony of Jesus is a gift. As all gifts are from the Holy Spirit Therefore the remnant Church is the Church that moves by the dictates of the Holy Spirit. Now I understand that whoever is looking for a blessing from God should be asking for the Holy Spirit which is the blessing of all. The biggest blessing that we have from the Holy Spirit is the incarnation of Jesus. It would be impossible for us to understand the Divine and the human nature of Christ without the direct intervention of the Holy Spirit on the Person of Mary. The blessing of the Holy Spirit works in a life time process through us and in us, preparing the soul for the encounter of the Redeemer. I like to add, base on the information provided by Kendrick on the test of the prophet, that Ellen White successfully pass those tests. And because she did, many skeptics who witnessed the Holy Sprit working through her accepted the message of the new Adventists. Now my question will be: 1. By mentioning that the gift of prophecy has been restored through Ellen white. Is it mean that before Her the gift was destroyed?
2. If the gift has been restored could it be that other people will continue to benefit from it. Or the restoration was only for a specific period of time and for one particular individual since the seventh Adventist Church recognizes her only?
3. How does one’s consider the Theology of certain Churches that heavily base their teachings on the receiving of the Holy Spirit and The remnant Church that possess the testimony of Jesus which is the work of the Spirit?
Kendrick Cid thorough inspirational comment on the testimony of Jesus helps me to understand this concept with more enlightenment. By mentioning the Standpoint of Dr. Pauline convinces on his interest of the subject and clarifies the theory that the Testimony of Jesus is a gift. As all gifts are from the Holy Spirit Therefore the remnant Church is the Church that moves by the dictates of the Holy Spirit. Now I understand that whoever is looking for a blessing from God should be asking for the Holy Spirit which is the blessing of all. The biggest blessing that we have from the Holy Spirit is the incarnation of Jesus. It would be impossible for us to understand the Divine and the human nature of Christ without the direct intervention of the Holy Spirit on the Person of Mary. The blessing of the Holy Spirit works in a life time process through us and in us, preparing the soul for the encounter of the Redeemer. I like to add, base on the information provided by Kendrick on the test of the prophet, that Ellen White successfully pass those tests. And because she did, many skeptics who witnessed the Holy Sprit working through her accepted the message of the new Adventists.
Now my question will be: 1. By mentioning that the gift of prophecy has been restored through Ellen white. Is it mean that before Her the gift was destroyed?
2. If the gift has been restored could it be that other people will continue to benefit from it. Or the restoration was only for a specific period of time and for one particular individual since the seventh Adventist Church recognizes her only?
3. How does one’s consider the Theology of certain Churches that heavily base their teachings on the receiving of the Holy Spirit and The remnant Church that possess the testimony of Jesus which is the work of the Spirit?
Kendrick Cid thorough inspirational comment on the testimony of Jesus helps me to understand this concept with more enlightenment. By mentioning the Standpoint of Dr. Pauline convinces on his interest of the subject and clarifies the theory that the Testimony of Jesus is a gift. As all gifts are from the Holy Spirit Therefore the remnant Church is the Church that moves by the dictates of the Holy Spirit. Now I understand that whoever is looking for a blessing from God should be asking for the Holy Spirit which is the blessing of all. The biggest blessing that we have from the Holy Spirit is the incarnation of Jesus. It would be impossible for us to understand the Divine and the human nature of Christ without the direct intervention of the Holy Spirit on the Person of Mary. The blessing of the Holy Spirit works in a life time process through us and in us, preparing the soul for the encounter of the Redeemer. I like to add, base on the information provided by Kendrick on the test of the prophet, that Ellen White successfully pass those tests. And because she did, many skeptics who witnessed the Holy Sprit working through her accepted the message of the new Adventists.
Now my question will be: 1. By mentioning that the gift of prophecy has been restored through Ellen white. Is it mean that before Her the gift was destroyed?
2. If the gift has been restored could it be that other people will continue to benefit from it. Or the restoration was only for a specific period of time and for one particular individual since the seventh Adventist Church recognizes her only?
3. How does one’s consider the Theology of certain Churches that heavily base their teachings on the receiving of the Holy Spirit and The remnant Church that possess the testimony of Jesus which is the work of the Spirit?
Allens’ Comment on Enno Mueller paper Enno Muelle chooses to write his paper on a hot topic that everybody is interested in or supposed to. The fact that he is concern about it, attest that he is an alert Bible student who is walking under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The great controversy theme that he selected is the heart of Ellen G. White writings too. Like he mentioned, every human being wrestles with this subject regardless your belief. That is an undeniable truth. And as his paper is so inspiring and rich in content he talks about another topic, this one pierces into the depth of Christianity. Certainly there is a big struggle today between conservative and liberal. To be honest, sometimes I don’t know what end of the cord to tear. That why I consider his paper relevant to our Christian journey. It helps me to think about my own struggle. The last view that I share with brother Mueller is his honesty. I am glad he can say aloud what everybody seems to deny. Human being feels more comfortable in generalizing matter. We need to challenge ourselves to leave room for diversity and others opinions. This is very encouraging to see somebody who is determine to think rather than to accept others people view blindly. My questions are: 1. We all know that we need to have balance in life. Could it be that by focusing too much on balance, we make it become a law for ourselves? 2. What is our attitude when the general opinion considers something right unfortunately we have problem to accept it as an ultimate truth? 3. If the great controversy theme is so important, what would be the reason given by certain Christian authors who prefer not to write or talk about it?
Comment on "The Challenge Now" by Morumbwa Dickson
First, as a female it is so comforting to know that in Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female for we are all one in Christ Jesus. What a blessing to know! Secondly, along with Galatians 3:28 and the Great Commission that christ gives us in Matthew 28:19,20 it is even more of a blessing to know that God has called us all even women to rise to the challenge of finishing the work and we all need each other to finish it. I personally am working toward loving all my brothers and sisters as Christ loves me so the world is able to see Christ through my witness. I pray for a time when we all can do this so we can finish the work and go home. Thank you Brother Dickson, for your paper has inspired me. I will rise to the "challenge Now," for love will be the factor to make us one in Christ. This is how the world will know we are His Disciples.
"First Impressions and a Sense of Humor" by Bryan Laue
It's a blessing to know that a Pastor is interested in sharing this information with the churches. I think if our churches could have someone like Dr. Hanna come and give a systematic study on Ellen White and the Spirit of Prophecy there wouldn't be so many misunderstandings and misapplying her writings. Not having all the facts causes confusion. Just think of how comforting it would be to know that Ellen White has a sense of humor and is practical in what she has to say to the world. It think a lot of people would be suprised to see that she is a real person just like us. May God bless you in your endeavors in this great task!
I have read the reflexion paper of Josue Manigat. He has stated one of my favorite theme about Ellen G. White It is about the demonstration that she was a true prophetess. One day in our class I share a comment about one of my students of the Bible who do not believe in Ellen White writings as a prophetess of the Lord. Josue has tried to explain how to recognize a true prophet. His statement helped me more to understand about these theme. In this way I can explain to my students too. Josue said that he understood the way that God works to meet people and to enlighten them according to their need. He also said that she was a simple person. After her accident when she was 9 years old, she continued being an ill person, but God used her as His instrument to show us that from a simple human being, He can make a great person in his or her obedience. Finally, Josue stated that if she was a sinner or not. I agree with him, she was, and that help me to understand that God chose sinner people. I agree, that if I repent of my sins and abandon them, God can use me as His intstruments.
Comment on The ceremonial and the moral law by Wayne C. Hosten.
This was one of the theme that I was better understood with our professor Dr. Hanna. I did not know that the ceremonial law was not abolished in a sense, but was fulfilled in Jesus Christ. When Mr. Hanna explained it I was amazing because I have never ever heard that explaination concerning to the ceremonial law. Wayne C. Hosten, stated that these laws fulfilled points to Jesus and places him at the center of the Torah. that give us understanding on the role in humanity salvation; past present and future. I remember when Mr. Hanna told us about that, but reading Wayne C. Hosten reflexion I have understood better this theme.Thank you Mr. Hanna for give us this space to share with our fellows, that have help us to understand better your explainations in class.
By Philip Dah I appreciate Dani Carmona’s reflection titled Wanted: Better Instruction & Instructors where he says “The negative church experiences for our youth are far too common. Many have been “knocked down” with their developing questions because they’ve heard all too often that they cannot do this or that because “Sister White said…..” Because of the inappropriate application of her counsel, many youth associate Sister White only with restrictions and not with encouragement or inspiration. The youth learn to shun certain conversations around certain adults because they know what the response will be – another unpractical lecture that leaves little light on the matter.” I also have experienced this and saw many of my buddies while growing up leave God. I actually told myself when I left for college that I would never go back to the SdA church and doubted if God was real and even have this clear memory telling my mother how “I will never go to Andrews.” Ha, now I’m here. My experience with EGW changed when in Bible study four years ago when someone used her writings with much love, and after we had studied the Bible for much time. Many in the study were already in tears and the leader used EGW just to bring home what we already saw in the scriptures. I think we must challenge ourselves to always present Scripture and EGW in a caring way as we become leaders and instructors.
By Philip Dah I appreciate stevie c. comments on race in our church. Some of his words are “Now that we are years into the future, can we look back and say that what was done then was worth it due to what we have now. I am still shaky about this due to the fact that the church is now still divided and race relations is just a fraction better that it was then.” I think he has been willing to address an issue many are not willing to face. I believe the time has come to rewrite conference lines within our church. Now is the time to dismantle our conferences and rewrite them based solely on geographic location only. This may seem radical but it makes sense…shouldn’t everyone in the same location be working together with one goal? It is so embarrassing trying to “explain” why we have two conferences in the same place. As we become the leaders of our church we should not be afraid to speak out. Who cares if we lose our jobs, there’s always Walmart.
Comment on Jonathan Burnett’s “Ellen White a Spiritual Lazy Boy?”
I must say that I was tickled by Jonathan's title. But as funny as the title is, unfortunately his conclusions are true. I have experienced people who knew exact quotes and where they are found for E.G. White but stumbled when quoting the Bible. While I don't claim to be a Bible scholar yet, I can say that until we actually follow the true and clear words EG White states when she says she is the lesser light pointing to the greater light (the scripture) then we will continue to stumble as individuals and a church into the "Lazy boy" and sleep right through the Second Coming of Christ! Thanks for the insite Jonathan.
Comment on Jonathan Pawson's To Be or Not To Be… Paper 2
I feel your frustration oooozing out of your reflection paper when you talk about the "watering down of the scripture". I feel your pain. I sometimes get so caught up in the emotion of the way a minister, Bible class teacher or small group leader presents scripture based doctrine that I don't go back and read for myself. It is a creeping compromise we are increasingly facing when we begin to move away from scripture and base our knowledge of the word on the interpretation of an interpretation of an interpretation someone heard 6 years ago from a minister who preached for Youth Day. Members are not hot, bothered and drenched with the sweat of sin enough to dive into the cool pool of scripture and refresh their souls (myself included). I guess we really need to pray for each other and keep spreading the word that there is a place of cool refuge where our heated souls can find comfort... the Word, the Testimony of Christ. As for your title "To Be or Not Be" I choose to be and will proudly shout from the mountain tops "I am a Seventh Day Adventist... I choose Christ". If I perish, I perish at least I stand for Him (well lets hope I don't perish before I get the MDiv - just kidding). Thank you for your insight.
While I agree with your comment about "...the Great Controversy making life easy for us..." by answering life questions, I think that as you mentioned later on in your reflection, it can make us lazy and not "challenge" us to search further for deeper scripture based truth. Or even search to see if there is even deeper truth to find. My heart still races when I read about the last days in the Great Controversy and the events that the Bible and EG White write about that lead up to the end. I guess my fear comes from not always feeling that I am read-up, prayed-up or SDA theologied-up enough to stand in the end. I am with you on trying to be more willing to be open to the challenges of understanding the scripute outside of my comfort zone. Thank you for your insight.
Since the world is in total confussion with every dick and harry claiming to have divine revelation I support Dayv Lounsbury on his article "MESSANGER OF THE LORD AND THE REMNANT" where he makes a classic comparison between Ellen White and John as being very humble as opposed to the modern self proclaimed prophets. This gives us the beautiful picture of how Christ did miracles yet He was not ready to be assocaited with them.I believe that remnants will always get the right meassage from the most humble people identified by the writer. Keep it on and your explanation will alter the critics' position.
Eric Washburn, thanks for your wonderful insights.
Regarding the issue of the early Advent movement’s eating of swine’s flesh, you pointed out Ellen White’s statement:
“He will teach His church their duty… I saw that the angels of the God would lead His people no faster than they could receive and act upon the important truths that are communicated to them” (Testimony to the Church Vol.1, pg 206-7).
Yes, it is very thoughtful of God to first make sure the church has a structural base and unity of spirit that is needed to shoulder a health reform vision and other priorities.
It is amazing to see God’s patience as the Advent movement developed in its views (doctrines) and practice. God’s way is so contrary to the way we Adventists treat people who wants to be baptized. We go through a list of things they need to say “yes” to before we entertain the thought of baptism. Most of the time, we judge people outwardly, because we can be skilled at it. Who can judge people’s hearts, anyway?
1 I recall a book written by Richard Rice (Loma Linda University and La Sierra University professor) that is entitled, “Believing, Behaving, Belonging.” Which is first?
2 Do we want people to believe our doctrines first, then expect them to behave and imitate certain behaviors, then they can belong to our church?
3 Or do we lovingly show them that we want to serve them as Christ would serve them? Show them the Word of God and pray for the Holy Spirit to tug at their hearts and to win their hearts over through our loving witness and testimony?
I also believe in small groups – a place where people can be invited to taste and see what church is all about, where people can trust others, receive Christ(learn about God), receive strength, find encouragement and affirmation, be discipled, receive support and love without the pressure of having to believe and behave first. In other words, we give them the treasured gift first (belonging), then the rest (believing and behaving) as they are prompted by the Holy Spirit and our testimony. Eric, you are so right. The small group is where we can inject (show) that vegetarianism isn’t so bad, after all. In fact, we don’t need to hurry people to convert into vegetarianism. That is not the way to feed meat-eaters. FIRST, We’ve got to encourage them to eat more vegetables. That is the NUMBER ONE way to go. Help them learn to eat more vegetables by improving our way of cooking veggie foods.
I remember my wife who was a meat-eater, and could still be, if we aren’t together. When she first came to Hawaii from Philippines and experienced her first potluck in Molokai, Hawaii, she cried that week. I didn’t find that out immediately. Poor her. We have to LEARN to be considerate to meat eaters. Raw food and vegan(ism) is not the next step for them. The first step is to eat more vegetables; just simply THAT. Now my wife cooks the best vegetarian dishes. It is unbelievable.
So, when we were back in Hawaii, the church tried its best to encourage and show the community by inviting them to a dinner we called “Pathway to Life.” This dinner was to demonstrate to them that there are non-threatening ways to introduce them to the biblical ideal diet. FIRST, from eating pork and other unclean animals, they can begin cutting that off and eat simply clean animals like chicken and beef and fish. At the same time we encouraged them to eat more vegetables. This will help them transition much better. SECOND, they can choose to be lacto-ovo vegetarians. They could eat eggs and dairy products. We also encouraged the people to eat organic (dairy products, veggies, and milk and eggs). THIRD, they can choose to be vegans (no meat, eggs and other dairy products). And lastly, they can really engage themselves into eating raw foods (the healthiest).
This presentation gave people the idea that God was still on their side, still under the umbrella of the gospel. And we showed them that we were there for them to help them transition into a much better lifestyle.
ANOTHER POINT. I remember vividly elder Art Bushnell’s sermon where he showed a great principle from the story. Here is how it goes.
Rachel had stolen Laban's idols. Laban accused Jacob of stealing them so Jacob told him to search for them. Laban did not find them. Then, Jacob rebuked Laban. Laban had treated him poorly by changing his wages ten times. Then Jacob and Laban made a covenant not to harm each other.
Jacob sent messengers to Esau. The messengers told Jacob that Esau was coming to meet him with four hundred men. Jacob was afraid that Esau was coming to hurt him. So, he sent a present of many animals to Esau so that he would not be mad. Then Jacob split his family into two companies and prayed that God would protect them. (Gen. 32:7).
Jacob divided his family into two groups, “so that if one should be attacked, the other might have an opportunity to escape” (PP, 196). AND BUSHNELL SAID THAT JACOB WOULD NOT MOVE FORWARD FASTER THAN ANY OF THESE TWO BANDS. He patiently waited as he guided and protected his family. So should we be in treating other people.
Certainly, as Eric said, “we can learn a lot from how God has dealt with His people in the past, and practice the same kind of mercy, and patience He did to each other.”
A complicated issue is made simple by Eric Washburn in his article 'should we baptize pork eaters?' in that the ceremonial laws nailed on the cross are valid to those who knows the role Jesus did on the cross.We cannot finish the divine work if we go against the laws of Health for example. So let us follow what God requires of us at all times.Jesus did all and we should do what is required of usand teach others this plain truth. thanks.
I like the idea of using small evangelistic fellowship groups to introduce people to the experience of belonging even before they believe all the distinctive teachings of Seventh-day Adventism and behave accordingly. These small groups can also be our Sabbath School classes. We should promote Sabbath School membership by non-Adventists.
At the same time, to make this work we will have to make these classes friendly places. To often the Sabbath School Class is a place for legalistic Adventists to argue about disputed matters in such a way that we would hope there are no visitors present to witness such displays of heat without light! Fortunately, not all our classes are like that. Praise the Lord!
A response to Dayv Lounsbury reflection, “Messenger of the Lord and the Remnant” by Eric Washburn
I enjoyed Dayv’s thoughts on why Ellen White chose her title “Messenger of the Lord”. Dayv with his sanctified imagination said that Ellen like the Angel in Revelation, might of took the title messenger so that John and God’s people would not worship a created being. I do agree with Dayv that people to hold her up, even sometimes higher than the words of Jesus. Occasionally people use her writings to cast judgment on others, taking seat in Jesus seat. I still wonder why she chose the title messenger over prophet. In the passage it doesn’t say that John wanted to worship the prophet standing before him, because a good Jewish Christian would never bow down and worship a prophet or even a angel. John mistakenly identified the Angel as being God. Ellen White even with the title Messenger of the Lord is still being worshiped by some. Could she have chose the name because that’s what God gave her, a message, or maybe the title of prophet had such bad connotation then, and even today, that most people would run from such a person.
I agree with you Dayv that we need to be careful about the claim of being the remnant in a pious and un-Christ like way. Or making the claim and not living up to all the spiritual standards of the that claim. I was thinking, even when Israel failed as God’s remnant nation, their was a remnant within who were still holding on to God. So even if the Adventist Church fell apart structurally, financially, and theologically, there would still be a remnant within the forfeiting remnant, still hold true to God and the testimony of Jesus Christ (all four revelations☺). I really believe a remnant is one of heart and obedience and not by denominational name.
1. Our church has many uncircumcised hearts, that are being used as tools in the hands of the devil. Should they be included as being part of the remnant? No way! A remnant is not a denominational umbrella that covers who ever is under it. A remnant to me not only has a message to preach, but also live out. What do you think?
2. Do you think the title Messenger of Lord/ prophet is a title that any of us can claim? A prophet doesn’t have to predict the future, couldn’t they be a preacher who is guided by God to write his or her sermon? Sometimes I feel we have blown these titles out of portion, and God is actively choosing people to speak for Him today. What do you think?
3. Does a prophet have to go in vision to be a prophet, could not God guide the prophet to the write down a passage and inspire his or her thoughts on a message for the people?
A response to Darlene Thomas reflection, “"Thanks for More Light" by Eric Washburn
Darlene, I too have seen things from a new perspective on the hand writing written against us, mention in Col. 2:14 being nailed to the cross. I have study with someone on the Sabbath and they than told me that it was nailed to the cross. I than gave a good old Adventist response telling them it was the ceremonial law not the moral law nailed to the cross.
I think we need to be careful to say what was discussed in class as new light or being true. Don’t settle with this being a “thus saith the Lord”, without really studying it out. I am sure if we dive into the Greek and read the whole chapter in the whole context of the letter, and even do a thorough historical study of presiding conflict they were confronted with we could come to a more solid position. Even than we should always be open to study or hearing another perspective.
I am not convinced as of yet that the moral law was nailed to the cross. I can agree that its condemnation that we deserve was done away with in the sacrifice of Jesus in our place on the cross. I do see from our class discussion that we need to be careful in our future studies with non-Adventist, to not to be so dogmatic in proving which law was nailed to the cross. And I think we should be careful in how we say the moral law was nailed to the cross if we do happen to be persuaded of that. We wouldn’t want someone to misunderstand us and think its okay to not keep the Sabbath, and all the rest of the Ten Commandments. As Dr. Hanna was trying to get across, something of both laws was nailed to the cross, but it doesn’t mean it is completely abolished. Both ceremonial and the moral law have principles that we ought to live out today.
I totally agree with you that the law leads us to Christ, and that we are not saved by keeping it. I know I do my best, which is not saying a whole lot, to keep the commandments. The God who sees all things, knows that I do not keep it perfectly. There is so many grey areas that I cannot not tell if they are sins or not. God didn’t spell out every sin, but gave us principles to follow. There is a lot of freedom in keeping the commandments, we as human wish God would give us a hundred of commandment in how to keep the Sabbath, so we can keep it perfectly. How do I know this, because we already have come up with hundred of rules on our own. God kept it simple, why do we try to complicate things. So what it boils down to, for me, is that no matter how successful I am keeping the law, its flawed. It is only through Christ perfect life being is presented to the Father in my place that my record is perfect. I will never be able to merit salvation, but it is only through Christ substitution that I will have full assurance of victory. Do we not keep the law because its not spelled out perfectly, or we will always fall short of keeping it perfect? No we keep it, and ask Christ to bridge the gap for us.
I agree with the warning that we should not carelessly speak of the law being nailed to the cross lest we give the impression that the law is abolished. We should exercise the same care that Ellen White manifested when she did not promote herself as a prophet because people misunderstand the meaning of that title. Similarly people will misunderstand if we say that the law was nailed to the cross.
At the same time, when the question arises as to what was nailed to the cross, we must have an intelligent and biblical answer. In order to do so, we must recognize that the term “nailed to the cross” has literal and symbolic dimensions.
On the one hand, Jesus was literally nailed to the cross. The accusation that he was king of the Jews was also literally nailed to the cross.
On the other hand, our sins are, as it were, “nailed to the cross” since Jesus bore our sins. Also, the accusation that we are transgressors of God’s law is, as it were, nailed to the cross when we believe in Jesus.
All of this is illustrated through the figures/types/symbols of the ceremonial law which is itself nailed to the cross in the sense that it was fulfilled by the death of Christ. Jesus is the reality to which these symbols pointed. The glory of the symbols are, as it were, abolished by the greater glory of the reality to which they point.
So I do not teach that the law was nailed to the cross and abolished. Instead, I teach that when Christ was nailed to the cross the law was fulfilled in Him. Also, when we have faith in Jesus, the law is also fulfilled in us.
Josue you wrote, “Ellen G. W., as a prophet, is a confirmation that God meets people where they are…….” Josue ~ thanks for sharing your thoughts about God meeting people where they are. I truly believe that God is a wonderful instructor, and knows what we can handle and how much we can handle & when we can handle it. Like a parent knows when his children need instruction, God provides us with our needs. Josue, I am of the opinion the the Holy Spirit is a better teacher than any teacher on the planet. I’ve seen some incredible educators, who understand that students cannot be overwhelmed with vocabulary, language and information that is not relevant. They also understand that in order for OPTIMAL learning to take place & understand what you are reading, you must already know 90 percent of the words BEFORE you start reading (technically between 93 – 97 percent). A lot of research has shown that – it's called instructional level. If higher, it’s too easy (independent level) any lower, it's too hard (frustration level). Learning can take place within the frustration level but it takes longer as it interrupt the students fluency, Well, the Holy Spirit knows exactly what we need and when – thus no Heavenly mistakes were made with inspiration Sister White’s ministry – the mistakes were & are all down here on earth’s side! Thanks… dani
I want to thank you for your courageous words and inspiring all of us to Christian action…. There is so much work to be done, and so much forgiveness that’s needed. There is so much that has not been revealed, and so much we need to learn from each other…. In the spirit of extending on your solid comments, allow me to share some thoughts…
Reflection of our Heritage! I believe that race relations in the SDA church are a reflection of race relations in U.S. history. Just read this next sentence, “It’s late at night, noticed by a police officer, a Black man is seen driving his car into an affluent neighborhood, the officer ……” What happens next? The sentence and situation is loaded. I invite you to read it again. How one responds to the blank above reveals our attitudes, preconceptions, and experience. Obviously, there are dozens of ways to respond. There is no “one right” answer- because it “depends” on our attitudes, preconceptions and experience. Yes, we may go to church on Sabbath, but we still live in America. We are all affected in one way or another by this larger culture. Race relations are real. By this I mean they are still here TODAY. To BE an American or live in America, means to be a citizen or resident of a country with a rough racial background. It is touchy business, and it can get messy. It is also complicated. Denying the issue does not make the issue go away. It may be a knee-jerk reaction, but denial is not an appropriate response. What is denial? The dictionary helped me here, denial is: “disbelief in the existence or reality of a thing” “refusal to recognize or acknowledge” “in Psychology an unconscious defense mechanism used to reduce anxiety by denying thoughts, feelings, or facts that are consciously intolerable.”
All of these apply to how many Americans – and Adventists - have traditionally responded to race issues, by pretending it is not there.
I propose that this larger culture HAS had an effect on SDA culture –more than we believe.
Consider the following: •There are presently 9 SDA regional conferences in the U.S. [Regional conferences in Adventism are not exclusively, but historically, African American conferences]. •Regional conferences have a membership of approximately 300,000 members. •In 2003, nearly 30% of new baptisms in the North American Division (NAD) came from regional conferences. •In 2004, regional conferences comprised nearly 30% of the NAD population.
SDA congregations racially divided? It may SEEM disharmonious with our global mission, I PROPOSE that a review of history may shed some light on this multi-faceted & complicated discussion.
Adventists don’t live in the United States of AMNESIA. Please let’s remember the following:
*Black people were involved in the Millerite movement, although he never officially took a stand, the anti-slavery orator Frederick Douglass became a believer in the movement. His daughter Rosetta Sprauge became a member of the First SDA Church in Washington, D.C.
*The names of several African-Americans appear in Millerite publications, Father Bowles, John Lewis, and William Foy.
*Strong promoter of racial equality, Sister White understood the negative influences of slavery, and landed heavily on the White brethren at General Conference Session in 1891 in Battle Creek, MI. The E. G. White Estate archives show the following record:
"Understanding the growing restrictions being applied to Blacks throughout the southern states, she [E.G. White] recognized that she was plunging into an explosive topic, “but I do not mean to live a coward or die a coward.” She pointed out that “the black man’s name is written in the book of life beside the white man’s. . . . Birth, station, nationality, or color cannot elevate or degrade men.” Further, those who “slight a brother because of his color are slighting Christ.” Then she turned to the church’s neglect, acknowledging with regret that “we have not made a greater effort for the salvation of souls among the colored people.” She recognized that she was referring to “perplexing questions,” that both White and Black Adventists were needed to educate millions who had been “downtrodden” for so long, and that church workers in the South “must not carry things to extremes and run into fanaticism on this question.”
*In 1878, J. L. Loughborough baptized C. M. Kinney in Reno, Nevada who later became the first African-American ordained minister of the SDA church.
*Uriah Smith baptized Sojourner Truth in 1887.
*It was culturally OK for early Adventists to exclude “colored” from their worship services.
*In 1909, the General Conference established the Colored Department to foster the work among African-Americans. The first secretary of this new department was A. J. Haysmer, a Caucasian.
*TEN years later in 1919, the first African-American was appointed to the leadership of the GC Colored Department, W. H. Green, a Washington D.C.-lawyer-turned-Adventist-clergyman.
*For the next ten years Green worked out of his Detroit residence. He was not given office space at the GC.
*By the time F. L. Peterson, an African American, was appointed in 1929, the GC officers provided office space for him at the headquarters.
*In 1939, Elder Crowe, an African-American ordained minister was called to work in Indiana district for the Lake Union – the church workers of color faced SEVERE disparity when compared to their White counterparts. During this difficult time, most African-Americans hired by the SDA church were hired as janitors. African American members complained to church administrators to have equal hiring of their ministers into SDA organizational structure. Black members wanted to be INTEGRATED into the life of the church in more ways than janitorial service. Black members called the conference to follow the Biblical mandate and INTEGRATE. In response, the Lake Union Conference President, J. J. Nethery, suggested that Blacks be given their own conferences because the CHURCH leadership did not want integration. There was an understanding among the White conference officials that should colored conferences develop, they would quickly collapse due to poor administration and the colored members would come back crawling to re-join the White conferences.
*In 1944, then, the Lake Region Conference of SDA, the first Black conference was established.
*During the same year, other than cleaning staff, the only other African American at the General Conference was Elder Peters, secretary of the Negro Department.
*In 1945, Blacks were allowed to eat at public cafeterias in Washington, D.C. In the same area, Adventists were still behind on this matter, thus, Elder Peters, an African American GC elected official was denied service at the Review & Herald Publishing cafeteria – even though White non-Adventists were admitted. His wife had to make his lunch every morning in a brown paper bag. Sometimes we Adventist “out-herod Herod” we do worse on race relations than the world.
*Elder Crowe submits that today, the GC is much more integrated BECAUSE of regional conferences opened this door.
*In 1943, Lucy Byard, a Black Adventist woman, died after a Washington, D.C., Adventist hospital refused to admit her as a patient.
*In 1961, two GIANTS in Adventist History, Frank Hale and Mylas Martin – both African Americans Adventists, organized laymen under the Laymen’s Leadership Conference LLC for the purpose of: (1) ending segregation and the “quota system” in Seventh-day Adventist schools; (2) ending employment bias in the Seventh-day Adventist Church organization; (3) ending the Seventh-day Adventist denomination’s “silence” on its race problems; (4) ending segregation in every Seventh-day Adventist congregation; (5) republishing, by the church’s leadership, of Ellen G. White’s earliest writings on race, collected under the book title The Southern Work.
*At the 1962 General Conference in San Francisco the LLC – loyal to the church – requested a meeting with Ruben Fighur, the GC president. At first, he said, yes, then sent another Elder to tell them that no GC representative would meet with them. The LLC’s contingency plan was to go public, so on July 2. 1962 – they did just that holding a press conference. The invited list was extensive:
“The New York Times, Time magazine, Associated Press, United Press International, San Francisco Chronicle, San Francisco Times, Los Angeles Times, San Francisco television and radio stations, and other media outlets. The story broke the next morning and went nationwide. Wire services even took it to several countries in Europe. Nothing like this ever before had happened in our church communion. It brought the start of stunning change… On Sunday morning, July 29, 1962, the General Conference in session elected Elder Frank L. Peterson as a vice president, the first Black American to be elected to that post. In August through December, 1962, a number of Black Americans were appointed to positions within union conferences, at the Review and Herald Publishing Association, and at educational and medical institutions. In 1966 the church republished the long-out-of-print “The Southern Work.”
Issues continued, in 1965, Adventist boarding academies, elementary schools and colleges in the U.S. routinely practiced racial segregation. Many refused to accept any Black Americans. Yes. Columbia Union College, Southern Adventist and Southwestern Adventist universities were three higher institutions that REFUSED to accept Blacks. But all of the others used rigid quota systems. They yearly limited the number of Black Americans enrolled. This was not unusual treatment.
Sister White consistently followed the Biblical belief of integration, yet she understood the complexity of racial cancer in the U.S. – she was NOT in denial, when she wrote regarding race relations at THAT time:
“I said plainly that the work done for the colored people would have to be carried on along lines different from those followed in some sections of the country in former years. Let as little as possible be said about the color line, and let the colored people work chiefly for those of their own race. In regard to white and colored people worshiping in the same building, this cannot be followed as a general custom with profit to either party—especially in the South. . . . This is particularly necessary in the South, in order that the work for the white people may be carried on without serious hindrance. Let the colored believers be provided with neat, tasteful houses of worship. Let them be shown that this is done not to exclude them from worshiping with white people, because they are black, but in order that the progress of the truth may be advanced. Let them understand that this plan is to be followed until the Lord shows us a better way. . . . If you see that by doing certain things which you have a perfect right to do, you hinder the advancement of God’s work, refrain from doing these things. . . . All things may be lawful, but all things are not expedient.”
The context of her statement was in the late 1800’s – a challenging time in America. Are we in the same condition today? Some Adventists believe that we are completely OK. OF COURSE race should not be an issue in the light of the cross – BUT IT IS! Twenty years ago, my wife attended SDA boarding school, I won't name the state, where her class was openly taught by the White teacher, that when we get to Heaven, the White folks would go visit the Black folks on their side of Heaven. The teacher was not kidding, and the teacher could not be corrected on the matter, as this was a legitimate belief - by a certified SDA teacher. This is not that long ago... There are uglier stories, I will not mention them here, Spend time with Black Adventists and ask them if this is currently a real phenomenon or not. So where do we go from here? It’s not enough to sing, “Oh How I Love Jesus” & disenfranchise our brother – this has been part of the experience in America!
Some propose that black conferences be dismantled and reorganized by joining in mixed congregations. Some would certainly see this as an intrusion on their religious liberty to worship according to dictates of their conscience, experience, worship style, and CHOICE. Others might assume that there is embedded racism in presuming that White conferences are more “legitimate” Adventists than Black conferences. So who is more Adventist, Black or White bretheren? Who should dismantle their organization, Blacks or Whites? Should the Black conferences break up their conference and join the White conferences or vice versa? Should the conferences be redistributed? Who will have oversight over the “redistribution” of members? How will local constituencies react? What about “white flight”? White flight is a real estate (not exclusively) phenomenon in which Caucasian Americans move from their residence [they sell their homes and leave to another] once a number of African-Americans move into their neighborhood. Does going to church on Sabbath stop white flight? Sadly, my experience has been, “No.”
Better yet, who will tell the specific Adventist minority stories of HOW the Lord brought us through? Are the stories worth telling? I believe with ALL my heart that they are a testament to God’s Hand working in the affairs of humankind. Same as Black History, I believe IT IS American History (not just cool stories to tell in February), I believe that regional conference history IS legitimately Adventist history. This may be the first time that some have even heard of this part of Adventist history. Here is a question for the reader - Why do most Adventist history students not know the names of the Black leaders mentioned in this article? Why are their stories not told? Are their names and stories relevant? Doesn’t the fact that they are coming up on a blog site speak in itself? Friend, we have a situation on our hands. A serious situation.
Are we getting better? Yes, but historically speaking, in the grand scope of things, 100 years is not a lot of time. It was just 100 years ago that severe racial laws were in effect – and I have mentioned other more recent events in this writing, and have excluded current uglier experiences. Think of what has happened in the last century, yes, there has been change, but we are still sick. Stevie, you are right, talk is a start, but more action is needed.
In Feb 2003, the Office for Regional Conference Ministry [OCRM] received NAD Church Status – this means “full status” as an official church entity. Friends, the official church position is one of support for regional conferences as a legitimate worship entity – I say amen for the support. But look at how we got started? Have we grown as a people since then? Are the conditions that started regional conferences the same that exist today? Is having a historically African American church relevant? Is it a sin? If someone is thinking of dismantling regional conferences, what's next, Oakwood College, Pine Forge Academy (a historically black boarding academy in the U.S.)?
Incredible growth in evangelism, leadership and baptism has occurred because of regional conference development. If I had been an adult living fifty or sixty years ago, what would have happened to me without a regional conference? If your skin color looked like mine, what would become of you? What would have happened to my voice? Would I even have a voice?
Where do we go from here?
1. Most Adventists simply do not know the history. History is relevant. The action I am proposing is to begin a movement to encourage the discussion & review of history about race relations at the division level, which should trickle to the unions & conferences. Even if we have already done it in the past, do it again, this time get some younger church members involved (this generation has a different experience & therefore completely different take on this topic). I am open to a supporting ministry either leading or being involved in the discussion if its too heavy for the division.
2. Set a time table for action. What action? I don’t know. But there can be no action without at least a partially informed discussion first.
3. Switch conference presidents based on race for a year as a trial – this is pretty radical, like a reality “switch show” (this may be improbable given the legal constitutions of our conferences – but we need something like this). Although I am not sure if this one is going anywhere, the thought here is that EXPERIENCE is the best way to learn and identify with someone else’s experience.
4. Utilize the experiences and example of other SDA congregations, conferences, & divisions (in other countries - I am thinking of Sotuh Africa) who have already been there by inviting them as consultants.
5. Determine that reform must come – but WITHOUT splintering our organization. At all costs, no matter what, we will still be Seventh-day Adventists.
6. Start a prayer network on race. Like Count von Zinzendorf, who started a 100 year continual prayer movement – folks took turns praying around the clock for a century…
FINAL THOUGHTS
There is an understanding among Catholics that one’s political party and nationalism end when & where the pope says - its called ultramontanism. Ultramontanism is a religious philosophy within the Roman Catholic community that places strong emphasis on the powers of the pope. In particular, ultramontanism may consist in asserting the superiority of Papal authority over the authority of local government or spirit of the times. It literally refers to support for those dwelling "beyond the mountains" (ultra montes). When it comes to supporting the pope, for Catholics, there is an understanding that red & yellow, black & white, no matter the color, the pope is right! Loyalty to the pope is to transcend racial hang-ups / nationalism or ethnic hang-ups or baggage. Regardless of race, the pope and his mandates come first. If the pope says jump, well you know how it goes… Why are Catholics better at laying down their race issues for the pope than we are to obey our KING on the matter of race? What does this say about us when we compare our faith to theirs considering what we believe about Catholicism?
Galatians 3: 28 ~ There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
White, E.G. Testimonies, vol. 9, pp. Washington, D.C.: Review and Herald Publishing Association, 199-215.
White, E.G. The Southern Work, Washington, D.C.: Review and Herald Publishing Association, 1966), p. 10. Found in the Ellen G. White Estate Official Website, http://www.whiteestate.org/books/mol/Chapt19.html#note56
I think there is a very good point in this article. Although, I think the answer is only present indirectly, Morumbwa Dickson gives a clearer understanding of what the solution should be. Jonathan points out correctly that we are living in a pluralistic society where anything and anyone can come up with theological ideas. I also believe that there are certain guidelines in how we study and approach the Bible that need to be applied. Otherwise we can come to any understanding. Instead of getting hung up on the age long dialogue of conservative vs. liberal I think we need a new paradigm shift. This is where I believe Morumbwa Dickson has the right solution. Regardless of what we look at, regardless of what source it comes from we need to test it with scriptural principles and in the end it has to be Christ centered. This should be the rule of faith and should be our determining factor for truth.
I have enjoyed this reflection paper, because this honest response reminds me that I have thought similarly. Too often we see the idea of a prophet singularly as Ellen White. Well we know that in the history of our earth there have been so many more. And to think that this gift is limited to only EGW is false as well. I think Si On also made a good point in referring to what the mission of the church is. I think often we distinguish the two, but after reading the paper I have to say that the two inevitably go hand in hand.
I want to respond to "Ragnheidur Olafsdottir(Lala) Reflection paper nr.1
Sola Scriptura and EGW as a bonus!!"
Your testimony blessed me. It was great to find Ellen White's writings to be so helpful in your growth as a Christian, and it's refreshing to hear how she always pointed you to the Bible. I have found the same true in my own life. I think that in some ways you have an advantage in becoming an Adventist 11 years agp. Having grown up in Adventistism there is a tendency to think that you know it all. So many of us who have grown up in the church have never really read Mrs. White or studied the Bible for ourselves but we know just enough to make us think we know it all. So many of us play with our spiritual food because we have been fed so well all our lives that we don't feel hungry. So we push it around the plate picking and chosing which parts look the most appealing and that is what we eat. Consequently we are malnurished and weak. The challege I leave for myself and everyone who may read this is; has spending 30 hours discussing issues relating to the life and ministry of Ellen White caused us to spend more time reading her writings to gain a deeper understanding of the Christ she knew, loved and lived for? If not maybe we have spent this time in vain.
I want to respond to darlene thomas "A Prophet In These Days"
I am glad to hear that the Holy Spirit is so active in your life and leading you to a deeper understanding of truth. I have heard people say that the gift of prophecy ended with Revelation. This view reminds me of how the Jews thought that prophecy ended with Malachi. I too have had my understanding of what prophecy is deeped by this class. Something that especially blew my mind was the thought that angels in heaven also have Spiritual gifts. The angel told John that he was one of his brethern who also had the spirit of prophecy. Maybe when we get to heaven we will understand that prophets are beings who are able to recieve messages from God and pass them on better than other's or maybe anyone can be a prophet is God so chooses. In anycase it is true that God can raise up a prophet at anytime. Off shoot movements are never welcome at anytime. We must be careful that we do not pursecute them. We should take the attitude that Jewish Rabbi who trained Paul, Gamaliel, who argued not to fight against off shoots. If what they are proposing is of human origin it will fail but if it is of God you will not be able to stop it. If we review the history of the Advent movement out of all the groups that came out of the great disappoinment only the Seventh-Day Adventist's are still growing. At the last count our church had 16 million members and the next largest adventist church has about 6,000. We should reluectantly with sadness be forced to seperate from brother's who will no longer walk with us and also keep the door of reconciliation open to them.
I appreciate how you brought out the White family’s dedication to sacrifice. There is no doubt in my mind that these two ministers’ lifestyles truly mirrored Christ’s priorities. They truly walked the talk. That is not to say they were perfect, because they could have found a better balance between ministry and their children. And this same zeal may have contributed to the physical and mental breakdown of James. I know James and Ellen White walked closer with Christ than I ever will, so I do not question their passion or commitment. I just think that today’s ministers must find a Spirit-led balance regarding sacrifice.
I also appreciate how you focused on the Whites’ commitment to each other. I cannot think of many contemporary examples where a ministry team of both husband and wife genuinely love each other and their calling. But even if we ourselves are not formal ministers like the Whites, this couple’s legacy still shows us how to love our spouses. I like to believe that they loved each other in so far as they loved Jesus. And not only were they under the added stress of being ministers, but one of them was a prophet. Ha! Imagine having a prophet for a spouse. I would venture to say that many of us would have failed miserably, and perhaps that is why James was the “best man to ever wear shoe leather.”
But the most thought provoking question in your essay was, “How can the church stay connected with such differing views about the spiritual gifts in our church, and where do these thoughts about Ellen White come from?” I too have struggled with this question since my early childhood because I could see even then how people were approaching her, understanding her, and applying her. I believe Adventism can indeed exist – but cannot thrive with such a divergent hermeneutic on EGW. Leaders are too busy being firefighters than evangelism equippers. Our energy and resources are directed internally at Adventist issues, that there is little left to focus on reaching people for Christ. Google “Ellen White” and see how critics either attack or bait us, forcing us to fight the battle on their terms of the legitimacy of Ellen White, instead of on our terms of the beauty of Scripture.
If people know us better as Seventh-day Vegetarians ® who uplift a prophet, instead of as movement of three angels’ gospel messengers who lift up Christ, then I think we have failed. Participating in field school just a few weeks ago has convicted me that despite the immeasurable blessings of the seminary which I am forever thankful for, I am better prepared to make Adventists better Adventists, than make seekers better disciples.
Dear Jonathan Burnett (Ellen White a Spiritual Lazy Boy),
I appreciate your creative take on seven major divine judgments in the history of the world. With this framework, you show that the hour of God’s judgment has always been with us. This confirms what we discussed in class regarding 1844 as being just one of Christ’s judgments. I also agree that God saves His people, and I would also suggest that judgment is always two-fold: punitive and redemptive. There needs to be greater understanding on the part of Adventists in this area. There are too many former-Adventists because the wrong presentation of the investigative judgment led to a lack of assurance, which ultimately resulted in fear.
I also appreciated those questions you raised about humanity falling under the natural law after sin. I always realized that creation was cursed because of us and that our relationship with nature was fractured (just like our relationship with God and with each other). But I never considered the idea that fire would not harm us since we were made to live in the presence of a God who is a consuming fire. While I am not sure about the walking on water thing, I agree that we should include the natural law when we are studying the moral and ceremonial.
But most of all, I am grateful for your treatment of the issue of Ellen White being used as the rule of faith and practice. Like you so humorously mentioned, the spiritual gift of prophecy was never intended to be featured in films like Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. Whether Ellen White or Paul, the writings in themselves have no power to change people apart from the Holy Spirit.
This is really the crux of the issue for me. Legalism is not just a narrow-minded lifestyle or an emphasis on works, but according to the Bible, legalism is doing anything without the Spirit. This suggests that legalism is closely related to the unpardonable sin of blaspheming against the Holy Spirit. Spiritual things can only be discerned by spiritual means. I would suggest that perhaps Professor Hanna’s model of theology (Christ-centered, Bible-based, and relevant to the world) can also include “Spirit-led.” This is only a suggestion since Professor Hanna has probably already included the Holy Spirit into the model. I would insist however that the component of the Holy Spirit must be subordinate to Scripture. If we are truly the remnant, the Holy Spirit was not a just a blip on the radar at the turn of the 19th century.
Eric Washburn, "Human Like Me" Much of what you said,wer expressions of my sentiments exactly. I appreciated reading the thoughts that you shared of E.G. White's concept of the family because it is impossible to look at her inspirational contributions and overlook the sacrifices and loses that this family experienced. I empathize with them in their losses of children and significant others, because of three recent losses in my own family. Furthur evidence of the presence of God working in her life was His help in overcoming these adversities. Just as God was a very present help for me, he is aavilable to all who call upon Him... it's just better to know Him before trouble comes. Vital to me also from a human perspective, was the discussion of the letter of apology that was written as well as relating a vision that ultimately helped in the recovery process for her husband who was also a close friend. I had started a discussion in one of my reflection papers with my views of the closeness of the marriage union that was evidenced not only in her responses to him but in James' support and expressions of endearment toward Ellen. Because of lack of space I reduced my comments to summarize sacrifices that this family, both E.G. White and James white made for truth. Thank you for your thougthful contribution. May God bless you to continue to share a compassionate nature of God in all that you do. Best Wishes! A Sister in Christ, Geraldine O'Neal
Eric Washburn, "Human Like Me" Much of what you said, expressed my sentiments exactly. I appreciated reading the thoughts that you shared of E.G. White's concept of the family because it is impossible to look at her inspirational contributions and overlook the sacrifices and loses that this family experienced. I empathize with them in their losses of children and significant others, because of three recent losses in my own family. Furthur evidence of the presence of God working in her life was His help in overcoming these adversities. Just as God was a very present help for me, he is aavilable to all who call upon Him... it's just better to know Him before trouble comes. Vital to me also from a human perspective, was the discussion of the letter of apology that was written as well as relating a vision that ultimately helped in the recovery process for her husband who was also a close friend. I had started a discussion in one of my reflection papers with my views of the closeness of the marriage union that was evidenced not only in her responses to him but in James' support and expressions of endearment toward Ellen. Because of lack of space I reduced my comments to summarize sacrifices that this family, both E.G. White and James white made for truth. Thank you for your thougthful contribution. May God bless you as you continue to share a compassionate nature of God in all that you do. Best Wishes! A Sister in Christ, Geraldine O'Neal
Steve your paper was good and rose a couple of things that bother me also. You brought a question up that still applies to my life. You said this, "This opens another question, should pastors in the Adventists faith preach on the authority of the writings of the messenger, like many do today, or on the words found in scripture?" What do we do as pastors? I been at churches where pastors preach and half, sometimes more than there seromons are on Ellen White's quotes. These pastors will say that they do this because Ellen White is a prophet of God and we should not be ashamed in any way of her and her writings. If she is a prophet of God and has a message for His people, let it be known. I struggle than with the fact that we are trying to reach the unchurched. The majority do not know of Ellen, and most unchurched come to try out Christ. And so when they hear the sermon and hear Ellen White here and Ellen White there, you can just imagine what is going on in their minds. This is troubling for me. I believe our emphasis as pastors is to lead people to Christ and His love for us, before we present them to the "messenger of the Lord". Once they find Christ than it will be easier, I think, to lead them to the heavier food, which icludes the writings of Ellen White.
Then my other question would be when is it the correct time to present her writings to the individual and the church? We cannot just ignore her teachings. Her writings are definitely for the endtime in which we live in. Do we present her writings or study material during personal bible studies? Or do we do it during sabbath school or prayer night?
We definitely need a balance, but I say make sure we present Christ first, than the rest will come in place.
Salvador A. Garcia's comment/posting on Jose's Reflection Paper for Week #2
Jose, I would like to commend you and congratulate you for continuing your reflections and thoughts beyond the class discussion and conversations. You have clearly shown that you have have been seriously thinking about the subject of biblical inspiration and prophecy. If you continue on this path, you will grow in your knowledge and understanding of inspiration and biblical prophets/prophecy, and will be a source of knowledge and blessing to others you encounter in your ministry for Christ.
Three things that I would like to say in response to your reflection for week #2:
1) First, in thinking about the human personality of Ellen G. White, I think that you have expressed the need to have a balanced biblical understanding of the ministry and gift of prophecy. You have stated how Ellen White was "not perfect" (perhaps in the sense of not being sinless, or without human character flaws), and yet God called her to fulfill the role of a prophet, as God had previously called Hazen Foss and others who did not respond to God's call to the prophetic ministry. I think that the biblical doctrine of inspiration and prophecy is clear that there is both a human side and a divine side in biblical inspiration and revelation. God uses the human prophet and writer to communicate a divine message (2 Pet. 1:19-21).
Second, I would like to comment on your thought about the need to know the biblical tests of a true prophet in the day and age that we live in. You mention three criteria that can be used to test a person to see if they are a true or false prophet: 1) Christ-centered, 2) Biblical, and 3) Relevant to the World in which they live. I agree with you, and think that you also would agree to the biblical tests of a prophet delineated in the Bible, and given in class. In today's society and age, many individuals claim to have the gift of prophecy, and as a Christian Pastor and Teacher, you have the privilege of sharing the tests of a biblical prophet and showing other "misinformed" or "misled" individuals, the true tests of a Biblical prophet from Holy Scripture. Even within the dissident movements in Adventism and "offshoot movements", there exist claims by these movements and groups to the gift of bible prophecy. For instance, the Shepherd's Rod Movement believe the Victor Houteff, a Bulgarian immigrant, had the gift of prophecy, like Ellen G. White had. Yet his life and ministry, do not harmonize with his claims to having the gift of prophecy. So this subject as you see, is rich not only for preaching, and teaching, but also for correcting and instructing in righteousness.
Thirdly and finally, you raise the question of receiving a spiritual gift similar to that of Ellen G. White. While some may object and think that your statement is on the verge of making a claim to biblical prophecy or the like, I think that you have recognized the true nature of spiritual gifts. You have recognized that while some gifts are greater than others, God gives all believers spiritual gifts to exercise in the church and in the world. God bless you as you use your gifts for God's glory (1 Cor. 10:31).
I agree Jose that distinguishing a true prophet from a false prophet is relavent today. Christ said Himself that in the last days there will be false Christs and fals prophets. If there are false prophets during the last days there should also be true prophets. Today we have in South America people who are saying that they are Christ. I found out that one Adventis elder became a follower of one these imposters. I believe this is just the beginning. Ellen White says that Satan will disguise himself as Christ and we need to be ready to defend our beliefs, because he will definitely convince the elect.
I also find it interesting the timeframe Ellen White became to be a prophet. During the late 1800's we see a lot of activity spiritually. We see false prophets arise such as Joseph Smith and others. We see also false teachings increase during this time. With this I see a strong force at work. Satan is doing all he can to confuse people from the truth and present truth. Now that this earth is closer than ever to it's final days, we must be prepared for more confusion and distractions from the enemy. May we be all prepared with the armor of God.
Salvador A. Garcia's comment/posting on Jose's Reflection Paper for Week #2
Jose, I would like to commend you and congratulate you for continuing your reflections and thoughts beyond the class discussion and conversations. You have clearly shown that you have have been seriously thinking about the subject of biblical inspiration and prophecy. If you continue on this path, you will grow in your knowledge and understanding of inspiration and biblical prophets/prophecy, and will be a source of knowledge and blessing to others you encounter in your ministry for Christ.
Three things that I would like to say in response to your reflection for week #2:
1) First, in thinking about the human personality of Ellen G. White, I think that you have expressed the need to have a balanced biblical understanding of the ministry and gift of prophecy. You have stated how Ellen White was "not perfect" (perhaps in the sense of not being sinless, or without human character flaws), and yet God called her to fulfill the role of a prophet, as God had previously called Hazen Foss and others who did not respond to God's call to the prophetic ministry. I think that the biblical doctrine of inspiration and prophecy is clear that there is both a human side and a divine side in biblical inspiration and revelation. God uses the human prophet and writer to communicate a divine message (2 Pet. 1:19-21).
Second, I would like to comment on your thought about the need to know the biblical tests of a true prophet in the day and age that we live in. You mention three criteria that can be used to test a person to see if they are a true or false prophet: 1) Christ-centered, 2) Biblical, and 3) Relevant to the World in which they live. I agree with you, and think that you also would agree to the biblical tests of a prophet delineated in the Bible, and given in class. In today's society and age, many individuals claim to have the gift of prophecy, and as a Christian Pastor and Teacher, you have the privilege of sharing the tests of a biblical prophet and showing other "misinformed" or "misled" individuals, the true tests of a Biblical prophet from Holy Scripture. Even within the dissident movements in Adventism and "offshoot movements", there exist claims by these movements and groups to the gift of bible prophecy. For instance, the Shepherd's Rod Movement believe the Victor Houteff, a Bulgarian immigrant, had the gift of prophecy, like Ellen G. White had. Yet his life and ministry, do not harmonize with his claims to having the gift of prophecy. So this subject as you see, is rich not only for preaching, and teaching, but also for correcting and instructing in righteousness.
Thirdly and finally, you raise the question of receiving a spiritual gift similar to that of Ellen G. White. While some may object and think that your statement is on the verge of making a claim to biblical prophecy or the like, I think that you have recognized the true nature of spiritual gifts. You have recognized that while some gifts are greater than others, God gives all believers spiritual gifts to exercise in the church and in the world. God bless you as you use your gifts for God's glory (1 Cor. 10:31).
Salvador A. Garcia's comment and response to Ezekiel Nichols' Reflections for Week #2
Brother Ezekiel. I want to commend you for bringing your previous experience as a pastor, and your undergraduate knowledge about the ministry of Ellen G. White into your reflections and thoughts discussed in your paper. You have commented on three important issues, and I would like to respond and comment briefly on those three points.
First, I think that the "fifth test" of a biblical/extra-biblical prophet that you mention (Deut. 18:1-4), having to do with avoiding the occult or divination, is important for understanding the true role of a biblical prophet and the gift of prophecy. Now a days, with the many "prophets" and spokesmen/spokeswomen in the New Age Movement (Spiritualism), people like Shirley Temple and Paramahansa Yogananda (The Self Realization Temple / Hinduism) who claim to communicate with ancestors, spirits, and guides, need also to be "tested" by all of the biblical tests of a true prophet. I think that if we teachers and preachers of the Word of God, can share all the biblical tests for a true biblical and inspired prophet, many in false movements such as the New Age and Spiritualism will hear the voice of God and "come out" and become a part of God's flock and fold in these last days in which we are living.
Second, I appreciate your question dealing with why God allows people to accept/reject his call to be a prophet, and why it seems that God almost always wins! You raise the important issue of free will and God's sovereignty, and I think that as Seventh-day Adventists ministers , pastors, and teachers, we need to have a biblically informed postion and theology on Free Will and God's Knowledge of the future. I know that in my undergrad, I was exposed to George Rice's view on Open Theism, the Open View of God's knowledge, or Openness theology. I don't think his view answers all questions, but it shows that as Seventh-day Adventists, we are struggling and moving in a positive direction. The Biblical examples in Scripture teach that God does not force his call upon most prophets (Moses, Jonah, etc.), but at times his call is so strong, that it is almost overwhelming (Jeremiah 1). I think that God's pursuit of those he foreordains and chooses to serve him in a special way is powerful and strong, but still allows the individual to exercise their freedom of will in choosing or rejecting to serve God in that particular capacity. What do you think?
Third, your emphases and comments on Remnant Church Theology is important for all of us "servants in Divinity" (Not just pastors, but all the body of Christ) to remember as we share the Three Angel's Messages which include the Everlasting Gospel (Rev. 14:6). While the Bible clearly teaches that God has a Remnant Church in the end of time on this earth, God's remnant church are not an exclusive club and are called to "God and make disciples" and to compel others to come into the Banquet Hall of Heaven. I told my wife today, that being at Andrews University has helped me to reflect upon a hidden danger that we face as Seventh-day Adventists who live and work in "Adventist Ghettos" and Institutions. It is possible I think, to grow up in an Adventist home, go to Adventist Schools (K-College), work in Adventist Hospitals, Schools,etc., and associate and buy groceries only with other Adventists and at Adventist stores, and fail to interact and mingle with God's other children who are still "outside" of the reaches and confines of Adventism. How tragic! That's why I told my wife I personally feel compelled to work outside of Adventist institutions, and mingle with God's children, both Christian converts and non-converts, in an effort to be the salt and light of the world in my small sphere of influence for King Jesus! May your comments, ministry, and example reflect the Gospel of Jesus Christ and his invitation to "all nation, kindreds, peoples, and tongues!" God bless you!!!
Linda Wooning’s reaction to Kendrick N. Cid “An epistle and a temple of the Holy Spirit”
Reading this reflection paper, made my heart pound faster! If he continues like this, I believe his future congregation will be very blessed! The author compares certain Pauline texts about us being the Holy Temple of God, in which the Holy Spirit dwells. The author makes the point here, that we also are holy because the Holy Spirit which is holy, lives in us. What a wonderful thought! We are partakers! God sanctifies us, this is in accordance to Ezekiel 20:12, in which God states that He will sanctify us.
The author stated this very interesting question cq. remark: “the ceremonial systems are being fulfilled in the hearts of people by the Holy Spirit not only through the Bible but also through the inspired writings of Ellen G. White. They still apply in our lives in a spiritual sense.” Could this be true? Are the ceremonial laws still spiritual? Or, where they fulfilled by Christ (type met antitype) by which they automatically became spiritual through the life and example of Christ? Interesting questions. Why would God spend so many chapters / books in the Bible on the ceremonial law, and then to do away with them, somehow, it doesn’t seem logical. Do the principles still apply? In my home church in the Netherlands, I compared the situation there (children running around) to the temple in the OT. If God had so many rules / guidelines, why wouldn’t the principles of that still apply to church here? That is also God’s house, His presence is there when the congregation comes together on His special Sabbath day to worship Him. Maybe the author has a point, and are the ceremonial laws spiritual still. Where does Ellen White come in? I think by pointing us back to eternal truths, pointing us back to the life and example of Jesus Christ.
The author goes on to say; “. Ellen White also wrote in Evangelism: “The word of God is our sanctification and righteousness because it is spiritual food. To study it is to eat the leaves of the Tree of Life” (138). Which is why Jesus Christ Himself said, “The words that I speak to you are Spirit and they are life” (John. 6:63).” We are to study the Scriptures, the entire Scriptures. Why should she urge / encourage us to do that, if half the things written in it, don’t apply to us anymore? Most likely, there is a much deeper implication to it then people realize (including myself of course) when we say that the ceremonial law was nailed to the cross, abolished and done away with.
The author connects Haggai 2:7 to this all. He concludes that ‘this house’ refers to the people of God, although I wished he or she would explain why he or she believes it that way. Although I have no reason not to believe it, it would make it easier if there would be Biblical interpretation to it. But reading the verse, it can also apply to the church, individuals, and yes, God’s people. It all comes back to the beginning, “I will fill this house with glory.” Moses asked God to show him His glory, to which God responded with the following words; “The Lord, the Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth” (Exodus 34:6). Isn’t that wonderful, the glory of God, which is revealed in the face of Jesus Christ, will come into our hearts by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, that we to, might become partakers of the tree of life!
Linda Wooning’s reaction to Eric Wasburn’s paper “Should we baptize Pork eaters?”
The first part of Eric Wasburn’s third paper entitled “Should we baptize Pork eaters?” sounded very familiar to me. I too struggled with the ‘new’ interpretation presented in class about both laws. He writes that the new interpretation (or new understanding) of both the moral and ceremonial law being nailed to the cross (that is, our transgression of the written record) is in sharp contrast to only the ceremonial law being nailed to the cross. But if that would be so, who has the ‘Spirit of discernment’ to distinguish between temporary truths (e.g. sacrificial system) and eternal truths (e.g. health laws). For if the entire ceremonial law was nailed to the cross, or abolished, and the health laws were done away with, God went contrary to Himself by anew revealing those truths to Ellen White, as if He regretted doing them away. Which of course doesn’t make sense. J.N Andrews had an interesting statement in his Sabbattract (1854), he writes: “The fulfillment of the law is obedience, not abolishment.” Could this be the case in view of the principles of the ceremonial law being ‘nailed to the cross’, or done away with, or fulfilled? Christ was obedient to the law, even obedient until death, that by His death, type met antitype and the law was fulfilled; to that sense that the principles are still applying to us.
Eric wrote down another interesting statement, “But verse 25 goes on to say that we are no longer under the law, but under Christ. I think we are no longer under the condemnation of the law, but it requirements of obedience are still binding upon us. Jesus abolished the consequences (condemnation) of the Law that we deserved in His flesh, so that we who believe can stand as new creature in peace with God (Ephesians 2:15).” With my little theological background, it is like the pantheism crisis, truth and error are so close, and the line between them is so thin, it is hard to say where truth ends and error starts. But reading this statement, brought my mind to Romans 6:23; “For the wages of sin is death.” If Jesus did abolish the consequences of sin, why would Paul write this, many years after Christ died? Maybe Eric meant that we are no longer under the condemnation of sin, because Christ gave us an example how to live the law, that by faith in Him we become righteous. This is such a complex issue, and at many times so far beyond my understanding! Skip MacCarty has an interesting point in his new book “In granite or ingrained”, which somehow relates to this point. He makes a distinction between the experimental new and old covenant. The old covenant is a heart of stone, the new (experimental) covenant is, when we by faith in Jesus, have the law written in our heart, and by faith keep it. If that makes sense, we are no longer under the schoolmaster, for the schoolmaster is in us. This wasn’t mentioned in class (as I remember), but my own thoughts upon it.
In his second part of the paper, Eric reflects upon the reading. What amazes me is that it took the Advent believers 20 years to organize into a church. 20 Years is quite a long time. But perhaps it was good that it took a long time. A tree that grows to fast is thin, and will break in two when a heavy storm comes. But a tree that grows slowly, which has its roots deep down, will withstand whatever comes. Maybe this applies to the formation of the church. They developed their doctrines, and formed a unity upon those truths, binding the all together. Anyway, Eric points out God’s patience in dealing with humankind, in waiting to give the health message after they were united on more important matters. But does that make the health message less important? Or was God so gracious, to give the growing body of believers one truth at a time, so that they wouldn’t be too overwhelmed. Eric compares this to evangelistic efforts that take place nowadays. People get many new truths presented in a short time, and are expected (we pray for that) to accept the Biblical truth. He points out that, as God waited for them to give the health message, maybe we should too. And yes, in one sense, I agree and understand were he is coming from, it is not a salvation issue, but it seems among certain groups that they make or present it that way. On the other hand, God didn’t give us the health message to confront the world and make them follow it, or else…. God intended it to be a blessing, for both physical and spiritual health. There is a great influence between what we eat, and how we perceive God’s Spirit knocking on the door of our heart. God wants to bless us, also with spiritual health. People are so quick to blame God when they get sick, but might it not just be the result of their own actions (e.g. long cancer when one smoked for a very long time). Looking at Ellen White’s time, people weren’t as far in their understanding of health as we are now. People were advised to smoke, to relieve or cure long diseases. We know better now!
Although Eric doesn’t directly answer the question asked in his title (Should we baptize pork eaters), the direction he is heading, would answer this question with a yes. In a sense, I agree with him. It is not a salvation issue, but on the other hand, it was important enough for God to give a vision, and spend directly two chapters in the Bible on this topic. Who are we to decide if it is not important enough? What if we would baptize this person, and later on he found out he had been deceived? It is a delicate matter, but many truths are. Ellen White writes wonderful advice for this: “We should choose the right because it is right, and leave the consequences with God” (GC 460).
"Should People Be Baptized Into The SDA Church Who Are Not Aware of the Prophetic Ministry of Ellen G. White?"
Hola Salvador, I share your appreciation for the wealth of information received in classroom discussion in The Life and Ministry of E.G. White. Your paper touches upon many interesting questions for contemplation. I agree with your statement that E.G. White's messages are relevant for everyone including non-Adventist. Just think of all of the writings that many have read and through the guidance of the Holy Spirit have led them into this Bible teaching church. Interestingly enough, some non-Adventist share a greater thirst for the writings than people of the faith. It's perceptive that you mention the mission of this church which is to proclaim to all people the everlasting gospel in the context of the three angels' messages in Rev. 14:6-12. The commission of Jesus is to lead others to accept Jesus as their personal Savior and to unite with His church, and nurture them in preparation for His soon return. I think it is the responsibility of the preacher or bible intructor to teach from the Bible the doctrinal beliefs before baptism. They should also go over the baptismal vows prior to baptism. This can be accomplished through bible study classes. At the point and time that the Holy Spirit convicts a person, just how thorough their understanding of the doctrinal beliefs, remains to be seen. I feel that is where nurturing is essential. Additional study after baptism can come through participation in a New Believer's class or a Baptismal Class for an indepth continuation of Bible Study. Salvador, I would like to express this view that we share: Jesus is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. II Pet. 3:9. Let us stand on the promise that if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.I Jn.1:9. Whosoever will Let Him Come. Which would you prefer? Let's take a hypothetical situation of a young man or woman just recently baptized, without the understanding of Spirit of Prophecy or a candidate by letter of transfer without the same. Within a short period of time that person discovers that he/she has a terminal illness. Would you rather that person be denied a short period of fellowhip and acceptance of Jesus along with the fellowship and friendship of like faith or on the other hand, be denied baptism and die not experiencing the joy of renouncing the world and engaging in a closer walk with Jesus and fellowship with kindred faith? Which would you prefer? The scriptures say there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth. Luke 15:10 Best wishes as you continue to lift up the meaning of you name Salvador (Savior) to a dying world. Best Wishes, Geraldine O'Neal
I totally agree with Dani Carmona’s reflection, “Spiritual Warfare.” I feel it is more than echoing a fear or frustration, but really putting a finger on the problem of identity, who or what do Seventh-day Adventist believe in? While it may be true that our grandparents, parents, pastors, and anyone who misused Ellen White as a substitute for the Bible or a tool of coercion or even to foster complacency, that’s not her fault. Today, in my experience, the greater problem is not legalism but licentiousness. As we have studied this past month, God uses various means to reveal Himself including the spirit of prophecy. While our definition of spirit of prophecy has been broadened, at least for me, it in no wise cheapens the already established prophetic ministry of Ellen White; in fact, it ought to strengthen our belief, unabashed promotion, and careful study of her writings. The Seventh-day Adventist church was established by God for these end times to point the world back to Him, letting it know the eternal truth, God is Love. The eternal destiny of souls depends on that message. With the stakes that high, God, whom is longsuffering not willing that any should perish but all would come to repentance, would bask in the sanctified, abundant life and be safe to be saved, thereby entering into the joy of His Salvation for all eternity. Would He mess around and give a prophet that we would not have to pay attention to, read, study, and even share her work with non-SDAs? After all, she is the most translated women in the world. Could she be an end time prophet for this world? Sacred history shows us the danger when God’s prophets are unduly criticized, marginalized, philosophized, and then ultimately, fossilized. In the ministry of Ellen White, we have live messages for these end times. They are lesser light to the Holy Scriptures but they are light nonetheless! Today, as spiritualism is making its march via the megachurch movement throughout Christianity; as eastern mysticism puts on the Christian garb and is repackaged as contemplative prayer as well as breath prayer elements of “spiritual formation” or discipline (does Ignatius of Loyola ring a bell?); as our ministers and members drink at these wells for spiritual nourishment only to thirst again; it is our duty before God, to study His lights of truth, pray for soul conversion, and proclaim the Three Angels Message for a world hungering for the Truth. Arrogance has no place in the lives of Heaven bound folks but neither does acquiescence. With all that has been said, I definitely see my need to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit to be fully furnished as a minister of the Gospel of Jesus Christ in these last days. Ellen White pleaded for this and the fruit of her ministry shows us that God is faithful to His Word. I need to know that.
Mitch Williams’ reflection, “The Sanctuary Doctrine” really struck a chord with me. When I was a child, I loved going to Sabbath School, meeting my friends, and, even though it took some getting used to, I could even get into the sermon. I loved reading my Bible, especially the biographies and miracles of God. However, around 10 or 11, my little bubble burst when I started hearing about judgment. I could not help but think of it as me being busted as the world found out about all my sins and failures as off to hell I went. My parents, pastor, and schoolteacher explained the concept but I think in the back of my mind or may be somewhere closer to the front, I wondered what my actual position in the judgment is. Years would pass and I actually stopped going to church regularly deciding I would be my own god. After 10 years, I accepted God’s call to come back home. I think my problem all along was I really never knew Jesus. As I studied His life, His sacrificial life and brutal death on my behalf, I knew and know that He loves me. But what about judgment? I am no longer confused, nor scared, nor have a distorted view about judgment. Why? Because of the Sanctuary doctrine. David tells us in Psalms 77:13, “Thy way O Lord is in the Sanctuary, who is so great a God as our God?” The character of God can be seen in the sanctuary. He redeems us, sanctifies and equips us, then forgives us, and confesses us before the Father, thus paving the way for our glorification. Who is so great a God as our God? We do not deserve this love at all! Yet, the sanctuary is all about relationship. In Exodus 25:8, the Lord tells Moses, “And let them make me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them.” God counts us among His People. Could it be, because He fully understands what the sanctuary must accomplish if we simply submit to the One who walks among the candlesticks, a representation of His Church (Revelation 1:20)? The Sanctuary teaches us about the God we serve. Again, the Psalmist declares, “To see thy power and thy glory, so as I have seen thee in the sanctuary” (Psalms 63:2). It is reassuring to know that my all powerful Savior and Lord who craves relationship is in the sanctuary on my behalf. However, He has made me a promise that if I confess Him here on earth, He will confess me before the Father in Heaven (Matthew 10:32). This is vitally important, and, again, why I appreciate Mitch’s focus on the Sanctuary message. As Jesus now stands in the Most Holy Place conducting the Investigative Judgment commenced in 1844, I do not have anything to fear as long as I decide to allow the Holy Spirit to dwell and work in me, confess Jesus and He will confess me before the Father. Now judgment is no longer vengeance but vindication and Jesus vouching for my place in Heaven based on my spiritual choices! This is too good to keep to ourselves. We definitely need to strengthen the faith of SDAs in the God given sanctuary doctrine but while doing so, let’s not forget the rest of the world Jesus unashamedly died to save.
I would like to make a comment on the reflection paper posted by Wayne C. Hosten. Especially attracted my attention was the statement, “Perhaps the only solution to the competing interpretations of the ministry and role of Ellen White is to evaluate her in the light of Scripture.” Throughout this session, I have been thinking how we can evaluate the prophetic ministry of E.G.White. He gives us the concrete method for evaluating the office of the prophet. To do that will not only encourages our faith, but also help our church protect itself against other denominations or non-Christian people. However, remaining question is how we consider the relevance of the prophetic work of someone to the world in which we live. When we talk about the relevance to the world, can we say that "if something/someone has more relevance to the cosmic, it is the better revelation than the other?" As Wayne says in the last paragraph, “as we go along, I hope I become more knowledgeable about her so I can share her with others.”
Another comment that I would like to make is also on the reflection paper from Wayne C. Hosten. He explains in detail in the paper on the second week lectures the distinction between the ceremonial law and moral law using biblical evidences. I have been an Adventist for about six years now and rarely taught the distinction between these two kinds of laws. And without knowledge, I could hardly make a distinction between two sets of laws. Thus, I agree his statement that “now, I do not assume for one moment that the intent of the holistic approach is to equate the two laws in such a way that the distinctions are not explained but it can easily appear to do so.” As Adventists, we should discuss and talk more about the laws, even if it is not pleasant to do so.
"The Cosmic Christ in the Scriptures" Thwnk you for the excerpts that you shared from the book. Cosmic Doctrine: A definition for cosmic is having to do with the universe as a whole. Universe is defined as all space including planets and stars. The Bible infers that thaere are three heavens. II Cor.12:2 The first heaven is the atmospheric heaven, where the birds fly; the second heaven is the stellar heaven, where the sun, moon and stars move in orbit; and the third heaven is Paradise, where God's throne is. Gen 1:8,20, Ps.8:3,4, Ps.103:19. Incarnation Doctrine: The doctrine that the Son of God was concieved in the womb of Mary by the power of the Holy Spirit.Matt.1:18,22-25; Luke:1:26-38. Also Jesus is true God and true Man. But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death. crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.Heb.2:9 Other scriptures, II Cor.8:9, Phil.2:6-7, II Pet.1:16...The disciples were eyewitnesses. John 1:1-12. in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
All of Genesis 1&2 beginning with vs. 1: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth, show the Christ of the the cosmos and earth including the creation of the first man and woman, Adam and Eve. Although the earth is blighted by the pollution of sin, still nature testifies of the awesomeness of the God of Creation. I had planned to share a poem that the Lord blessed me to write on the beauty of his creation, but time does not permit. Blessings and Peace! Geraldine O'Neal
Somona Mills week 3 paper I really enjoyed your paper on the third week of this class. I too have had my core shaken in regards to the traditions that I held as biblical truth. I realized during the last few weeks of class how necessary it is for all church members from the Pastor to the janitor to study the word of God. I realize how easily we just follow the letter of the laws without truly understanding the meaning of the law. I agree with what you said about how we try to place our beliefs in nice and efficient boxes, hoping that in doing so we can easily return to those boxes when a situation arises and we need to unload this carefully placed information. I was left at the end of some of the discussions with the phrase “dose not compute, Danger Will Robinson!!” flashing across my fore head, but the best part of this was the yearning to study deeper and to learn more. This is the true essence of the study of scripture, to be humbled by the word while still being intrigued and yearning to learn more and to go deeper. The great thing about scripture is that it is immense enough for us to be awed by the majesty of our God but still small enough for us to know that that same God is with us every step of the way.
-A comment on "Ellen White Human like me!" by Eric Washburn
I've always wondered why we-SDAs- call ourselves "The remnant" and are criticized because of it by other denominations.
Reading the reflections of the classmates to write a comment, I found Eric's thoughts on the reasons why we can be remnants make a lot of sense to me. And like Eric describes, I feel a little hostile to the assertion of some SDA that we are the remnant because of the "Spirit of Prophesy".
He wrote:The remnant is group of people who keep the commandments, and have the scriptures which that testify of Jesus Christ. So, having Ellen White doesn’t make us “The” remnant, but having the scriptures does. This means to me personally that the remnant is not a denomination but any individual believer who holds the Bible as the rule of faith and practice (Commandment keeping included).
I totally agree with his opinion about the identity of "the" remnant. Having E.G.White doesn't simply make us "the" remnant. And the title "the" remnant doesn't gurantee us salvation.
I believe that there was always a group of people who deserve the name "the" remnant such as the Waldenses who strived to keep the scripture as precious as their life and devoted their lives to live the Scriptures through the history. God planted the seeds of His true followers at each corner of spiritual devastation through the history and with His Holy Spirit, God led their way through and made them stood upright in the truthful faith in Him so His saving truth can be blazed and carried to the mankind. The question of whether we are "the" remnant or not is not so important as far as I'm concerned because I'm pretty sure that God will not ask us "Are you the remnant?" and also the name of the remnant won't be the crucial matter when we try to introduce our Father to those who don't know Him, yet.
We will have to face the final judgment with Jesus' protecting Grace and at that moment, "the" remnant who has had the truthful faith in Christ and had lived their life as "the" remnant will remain as "the" remnant.
"The" remnant who will be appeared to be "the" remnant when the final scenes of the earth start are already "the" remnant. I'm not talking about predestination but the truthful identity as "the" remnant.
There's a daily question for everybody. 'Am I living my life as a real remnant today?'
One of the articles that caught my attention was the one posted by Steve Creft. He said, Mrs. White wrote “When Christ healed disease, He warned many of the addicted ones, ‘Sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee’ (John 5: 14). Thus he taught that they had brought diseases upon themselves by transgressing the laws of God, and health could only be preserved by obedience.” He said he had a really had a hard time moving off this line, “how could she say this?” Then he said, how can a woman who seems to be sick most of her life say that sickness comes from the sins of the person or their ancestors? When he heard this having a mother who is fighting cancer and a sister that struggles with sick-a-cell, he struggled with this thought how these things could be their fault. Too often when we don’t view things holistically we will find era. The good thing is Steve was able to discover later on that his questions were answered as he continued to search. I am glad that he did not stop at the first answer that Ellen gave. Later in his paper he states “now what was so awesome about this prophet was that she was willing to fix what she said and fix her mistakes.” He found a quote where she realized era in her previous statement and she was willing to express that God is a redeemer and restores the sinner and makes them whole.
Professor Bernett and the Ellen White Lazy boy I really enjoyed your paper and I must say laughter is good for the soul and I thank you. I have been a victim of “verbal martial art of ‘Whitekido’” so I know the pain this can cause. It is true that we wish for the easy way out of the true study of the word. I am guilty of taking the easy way out of my own personal study like you said with the digital versions of Mrs. White’s writings it is real easy to just type my questions into the “magic 8 ball”. You also got me thinking when you pointed out the 7 types of judgment, it is great thought that I look forward to looking deeper into my studies of the word. The last point that you made concerning the natural law and how we now fall under its jurisdiction was another eye brow raiser and a great discussion point that I would love to use in my youth group discussions. Thank you again my friend for the essay.
Comments on Simona Mills paper “Shaking the Foundations of Tradition”
I found this paper to very relevant to me. Simona starts off with an important question. What is the true foundation of my beliefs, traditions or biblical truths? I thought I knew what they were until I experience the challenge of looking at scripture in a holistic view and studying it where is in not biased or no longer biblically based. Too often I find myself trying to convince myself of certain doctrines or theological ideas never understanding the text fully. I have discovered that I have done more isogesis then exegesis. Trying to make things fit that is not there. Simona spoke about the ceremonial laws, she said “for years I have been taught and convinced (not by my own personal study) that the ceremonial laws have been done away with. I must admit, that is an easier argument to support rather than the view point that laws are not abolished. Jesus said it Himself that He did not come to change times and laws but came to fulfill them.” I believe that it is important for us a church to shake the foundations of tradition. It is my belief that we should minister as Jesus did on earth. There are times where it will be necessary to shake the foundations of tradition by being: Christ centered, Bible based and Relevant to the Cosmos.
-A comment on "The Spirit of the Law goes beyond the letter." by Jonathan Burnett
I came to think and realize more about God's love toward me menifested in God's law reading Jonathan's reflection.
Jonathan writes:We so zealously try to preserve the truth that we have (and so we should) that we are guilty of destroying it. Truth is living and therefore it must grow and develop. If we try to keep it by preventing it from growing, we will cause it to decay and die.
God wants to reveal Himself to us. He reveals Himself because He loves us. He reveals Himself in various ways. Law is one of the ways through which He reveals who He is.
Truth itself is everlasting and can never be changed. But I believe that the ways of applying it to a human life and interpreting it can be changed because our understanding and the prospective about the truth can be changed according to time and culture. Human beings change, not God or the truth. It's we that sets the limits of the truth, the love of God and the manifestation of God's character.
So, I would say that there's some flexibility in the application of the nature of the truth even though the truth is never changed.
We are human full of limits and boundaries. So, we can learn and enlarge our capacity of applying the truth through our mistakes with the help of the Holy Spirit.
The issue will be whether we have the courage to apply the developed truth into pratice and the humility to accept the fact that we might make mistakes in the process of applying the developed truth into our life practice.
God's recommendation to us is simple and clear. "Keep growing in the knowledge of knowing me till the truth can be fully blossomed in your life..."
"And we pray this in order that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and may please him in every way:bering fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God..." - Colossians 1:20 -
Hello everyone. I am enjoying reading your comments and I really appreciate the courtesy your are demonstrating to each other in your discussions. Here are a few comments that I would like to share concerning some matters mentioned by various participants.
First, I agree with the suggestion that in addition to being Christ-centered, biblical and relevant to the world, authentic SDA theology should be Spirit filled.
Second, there has been some good discussion about WHEN to present Ellen White to non-Adventists. I would add that equally important is HOW we present Ellen White. As some one mentioned, our presentation of Ellen White should be Christ-centered, biblical, and relevant to the world, and of course Spirit-filled.
Third, I agree that there are some dangers involved in using the CDRom technology to find statements that agree with what we want Ellen White to say. At the same time, this technology is excellent for helping us to find everything she has said on a subject. Therefore, if we are looking for a holistic interpretation we can find it through this technology.
Fourth, I would like to comment on the subject of teaching doctrines to those whom we baptize. We should survey the entire scope of SDA theology for such persons. It is improper to baptize someone into the church without informing them about the beliefs of the church. At the same time we should adapt the depth of our survey to the readiness of the individual. All persons do not have the readiness to study each aspect of our doctrines in equal depth. Therefore, it is important to continue to teach new members after baptism. The suggestion someone made about a new member Sabbath School class is a good one.
Fifth, God does have a visible remnant institution in the world today which is the SDA church. This continues the precedent from the Old Testament when God had an institutional remnant which was the nation of Israel. At the same time, there is a spiritual remnant which consists of the true believers within and without the visible remnant! We must not assume that we are automatically part of the spiritual remnant because we have membership in the visible remnant.
Sixth, both Jesus and Ellen White teach that sickness is a result of sin. If Adam and Even had not sinned there would be no sickness or death in the world. In addition, our sinful lifestyles can contribute to sickness. Even medical science is demonstrating this fact.
At the same time, there is a need for seeing the other side of the holistic biblical teaching on the relation between sin and sickness. Both Jesus and Ellen White teach that the fact that someone is sick does not necessarily indicate that their sickness is directly related to their personal sin. We should not judge those who are sick to be greater sinners than those who are not sick!
Lala commenting on Darlene's reflection. Darlene Thomas said... Reflection #3
"Just A Thought
I decided to comment on Darlene's reflection since I saw she was writing about the various problems God's people have concerning the Sabbath. In my mind came the thought of how many problems indeed we have when it comes to Sabbath. We as Seventh day Adventist are always struggling with what to do and what not to do on the Sabbath. But while listening to Dr.Hanna's lectures it came more clear to me that when we are in Christ, His Spirit will remind us and educate us to the right approaches to be in God's presence on Sabbath. We all know the feeling when we feel that we shouldn't be doing this or that on a Sabbath and I believe that it is true what the Bible says..if it is not done in faith then it is a sin. If we realize that what we are doing is not appropriate for us (and perhaps will damage our relationship with Christ)..and yet we do it!...then we are being disobedient and we do not follow what the Spirit of God is trying to enlighten us with. And because Sabbath is all about our relationship with God, then God will have to respond to us in a different way(because each relationship is unique)...not because HE has changed...His law will forever endure and His Character..but more like...I have much to say to you but you cannot understand it yet..you can not bear it yet...(like Jesus told His disciples) Therefore if we as SDA would consider that some are not as close to God as perhaps others and perhaps not as enlightened , then we would do much better in our "freedom in Christ"...we do not have to worry about everyone else...all we have to worry about is what is in OUR heart...because after all, God cares about what is in our heart...is is hatred towards those who do not keep Sabbath like we do? Or is it tolerance like God has for us EVERYSINGLE day of our lives. I do appreciate Darlene's comments about this...especially about that God will never change and we should think about that. But my response is more like an ongoing thought about these various problems that I feel are constant in the SDA church. May God bless each and everyone of us to love His commandments and to have the faith of Jesus, Amen.
Title: What is Prophet Si On Sung Reaction Paper #1
I couldn´t but agree with Si On Sung about the fact that while we thought we were taking a class with Ellen G White we barely touched on that topic that first week...rather, the professor was very biblical and took us on a theological journey wich was very interesting. Looking back I do feel that this course was such a blessing. Though we didn´t always talk about Ellen White in class our discussion still harmonized with her writings...Because after all Ellen White was always pointing us towards the Bible. I believe that many of us were quite curious before entering this course, but as we traveled together through the various topics I feel that the class became more and more relaxed towards Ellen White. That tells us that most of the time, all we need is EDUCATION and to look at things in a new perspective...in a Holistic way of thinking. The "Holistic thinking" took on a new meaning for me during this class and for that I am ever grateful to Dr.Hanna wich is a wonderful teacher. Overall I was enormously blessed by reading the book and I can wholeheartedly agree with so many of the students reflections. Si On Sung wrote about that the course revealed what a prophet really is, and it was a blessing to graps the fuller meaning of what it means to be a prophet. And I am not sure that the “church in general” can really grasp and understand what a prophet really is. And what comes to my mind is that , many years ago I watched a film where the leading actor always said “explain it to me like I.m a five years old”…I thought it was funny at that time..and even though I cannot remember what film it was then I always remembered this phrase because some of us…or some of the people out there do need explanations…we are going out into a field, where people have a dwarfed thinking when it comes to thinking of theological terms…we must go out there and explain it all to them…but sometimes…like they were five years old…and let´s enjoy it!! Because the harvest is reap and all they sometimes need is to be taught and explained to. Also…thinking about all the students who have been brought up as Seventh day Adventists and still haven´t gotten the real meaning or understanding of the term “prophet” then how can we expect to reach to those who are very far away from the Lord…We have to let the Lord educate us, enlighten us and then He will give us words to speak when it comes to explaining it to others…Lords blessings to all of you, Lala(from Iceland)
63 comments:
By Bryan Laue
One of the articles that caught my attention was the one posted by Jonathan Pawson which stated: “When talking to many different students about their thoughts of E. G. White, some say they don’t believe in her ministry as a prophet but that she was a good person and a founder of the church, while others say the complete opposite.” I have also seen these views among the membership. I really feel that there are a lot of misunderstanding in our church and in the general population about inspiration happens and the role and work of a prophet. I believe that until we put together a more complete and Christ centered, Biblical and relevant presentation of the role and work of a prophet we will continue to have these kinds of problems.
By Bryan Laue
One of the articles that caught my attention was the one posted by Kevin Kim where he says: “In our attempt to validate our claim as the remnant as defined in the book of Revelation as those who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony (faith) of Jesus, we have put a registered trademark (R) after the "testimony of Jesus" as the "Spirit of Prophecy." I believe that this is so real for many of the people in our church today. We have limited our view of the Testimony of Jesus and the Spirit of Prophecy. We have gotten part of the answer yet we stop there and do not continue to study and learn what the more holistic meaning behind either of these statements. I believe that we must strive to bring out a more holistic meaning that again is Christ centered, Bible based and relevant to the world in which we live.
Comment on Jonathan Burnett’s “Ellen White a Spiritual Lazy Boy?”
I enjoyed reading Jonathan Burnett’s reflection on the misuse of Ellen White as a “spiritual lazy boy” and laughed out loud at the clever analogy of “Whitekido” as a type of defensive/offensive verbal martial art enjoyed by Adventists. It is true that sometimes we quote her with pride and intellectualism, thinking that somehow we are more spiritual just by uttering the words “Ellen White said…,” as if our halos glow brighter as we mention her name. One of the pivotal points of the paper is that “The same Spirit of Prophecy that inspired Ellen White is needed to fulfill her prophetic counsel in the hearts and lives of men and women today.” I think this is the most relevant point of application for us as individual Christians and as a Church. Rather than putting Ellen White on a pedestal, we should ask God to give each of us the Spirit of God, which is the testimony of Jesus. This testimony stems from our personal relationship with Him, where He endows us with the Spirit and gives us spiritual gifts so that our lives, words and actions can truly be a letter written to the world for all to see (2 Cor 3:2,3).
As to the greater understanding of the investigative judgment to be more than the one event of 1844, I appreciated Jonathan’s listing of the seven periods of judgment in the history of the world. The seven delineated judgments have global and universal significance. However, I would add that judgment of groups, nations and individuals should also be taught in context of 1844. God judged Cain and Abel. He judged Sodom and Gomorrah. He judged the Canaanite nations and Egypt. Each person and group had a long probation period where God showed His long-suffering and mercy. Not only is it important to teach the judgment a time when “God’s people are rescued from Satan and not accused by God,” but it is also vital to teach that the period leading up to the judgment is also when God is pleading for all to be saved. That is why we as the remnant church have an urgent and serious mission to reach others NOW, before the Judgment of the Second Coming or before the end of individual lives. The time before the judgment is the time to make OUR judgments between choosing God or Satan.
I was challenged by Jonathan’s contemplation of humanity, the “crowning act of God’s creation,” as frail beings who die “in just 4 inches of water” and in fire even though “God is described as being a consuming fire and we were made to live in His presence.” He proposes that after the fall, we fell under the law of nature but that Jesus showed that we are recreated in His image and can be above the law by walking on water, etc. That is a wonderful visualization of how He redeems us. We are no longer under the law – moral, ceremonial, natural (and I would add health) – BUT now we live in Christ, who brings us to a spiritual level higher than the letter of the law . . . so that now, we keep the law but on a higher plane, where we can walk on water spiritually as well as physically. As Pastor Cortes shared in chapel service this Wednesday, to spiritually walk on water is to conquer our sins and share in the victory of Christ. When we have our glorified bodies in heaven, it will be wonderful to see the fulfillment of the recreation of our mind, body and spirit into the perfect image of Christ.
Comment on “The Great Controversy” by Enno Mueller
I agree with your statement that the Seventh-day Adventist understanding of the Great Controversy offers a degree of comfort, but in my opinion I don’t think that it makes life any easier for us. I understand what you meant by that, but I feel that having the knowledge of the spiritual warfare going on all around us and the origin of evil…etc, actually places a heavier burden on us for those that are on the in the dark about it all. But I’m sure you can agree with me when I say that though it is a difficult and heavy burden to carry, it is also a most wonderful and exciting work to do for the Lord! But like you, I realized through the reading and lectures in class that there is so much more to the Great Controversy than I had thought about or known about previously. Having discovered that, I’ve been challenged to do a deeper Bible study on it. Comment by Jonathan Kim
The article posted by Mitch Williams entitled, “The Dual Natures of Christ,” has helped me gain an even greater appreciation into the two natures of Christ. Williams points out that Christ did not use His divinity in ways unavailable to humans. While on earth, Christ gained an intimate understanding of human nature and can thus empathize with us. Ellen White says that when someone is born again they are connected to the divine power (MR 1003 August 4, 1983). What a sublime thought! Fallen man can be connected with the Divine nature of Christ. Christ was essentially born into this world as a “born-again”. When someone is born again they will be connected to the vine Jesus Christ and begin to reflect His fruits of character. Keeping our eyes on Him brings courage and strength to the Christian who is continually growing grace.
Comment on Enno Mueller’s Paper on “The Great Controversy”
I appreciated Enno’s honest reflection on his own weaknesses and desires in light of holistic interpretation and continual spiritual growth. I also question myself and feel my desperate need for God to give me a spirit of discernment and wisdom as well as open-mindedness and humility to learn from Him and others.
I agree with Enno that The Great Controversy is truly a “great blessing to the theology of our church.” The Great Controversy narrates the history of God’s solution to the sin-problem in powerful language and explains biblical doctrines in a compelling way. That is perhaps why it is such a great literature for evangelism. However, it should still be seen as a “blessing” and not the source of our theology. The Bible is our foundation, on which Ellen White herself built her writings on, and when we share The Great Controversy with a new believer, we should do so in conjunction with the Bible. I have made the mistake of thinking that I could give someone a copy of The Desire of Ages and The Great Controversy and that it would be enough for them to “see the light.” But as we learned in class, the prophetess’ writings are the lesser light pointing to the greater light and we have so many other revelations of God’s Spirit. The Bible should be the final authority.
I agree with Enno that it is so difficult to “hit the middle road” between liberalism and conservatism. In fact, I prefer not to use those labels anymore. As Professor Hanna pointed out, there are always two sides of the coin to legalism – you could be legalistic by judging on a letter of the law, and you can be legalistic by saying, “Don’t judge me by the letter of that law.” So who is really liberal or conservative? Those are labels we put to make ourselves feel more spiritual (no matter what side you’re on). The liberal feels smug saying that someone is “conservative” and the conservative feels proud saying someone is “liberal.” They are both expressing judgment. Rather than being distinguishing ourselves as straying to the right or left, we should focus on Jesus Christ, who will take us moment by moment down the narrow path, where we don’t have to worry about swerving as long as we’re following Him.
Enno pointed out a great observation, that when we are not following the light on an issue, we rationalize and justify ourselves in order to continue our status quo. On the other hand, when we think we ARE doing something “right,” we make it the “absolute truth” so that we can judge others by it and feel good about ourselves. Either way, we are rejecting God’s guidance in stubborn pride. Why is it so difficult to change? I think whenever we look at ourselves too much, we either grow proud (because of the “right” things we do, like morning devotions) or too guilt-stricken (because of the “wrong” things we do, like watch too much TV) . . . the best way to change is truly by beholding His beauty of holiness and letting that light reflect and absorb in us.
Linda,
I have truly enjoyed reading your post and reflection letter. I especially enjoyed the emphasis that you placed upon the name 7th day Adventist. Our name is a sermon all together and should be broadcasted all over and placed upon everything we do. Thank you for sharing that. You have brought up some other great points as well that have left me pondering over the same topic. My perspective has been living in the States and I have been asking the question for quite some time. Why are there so many different views about Ellen White both good and bad, what has broken our unity on spiritual gifts of the church and pull out the spirit of prophecy from among the list? Thank you for your comments.
What do you think is the main cause for such criticism of Ellen White in the Netherlands?
Do you feel that the US has the same problem with her or do you see them coming from a completely different area?
God Bless
I appreciated the reflection written by Emanuel Millen about Ellen White’s physical manifestations while under “inspiration”. Millen raises the intriguing point that these manifestations alone (i.e., not breathing while in vision, holding up a heavy bible over her head and pointing to various verses) are not enough to build the case for White having the gift of prophecy. Millen reminds us that the devil can also counterfeit unnatural phenomena, as was shown in the bible (i.e., the raising of Samuel). Therefore, when we evaluate whether Mrs. White had the gift of prophecy, we must look at all the evidence. Visions and dreams alone, along with their dramatic characteristics, is but a small part of showing proof that Mrs. White was inspired. Millen also points out that Ellen White was human, and therefore did make mistakes and even changed her position from time to time. This does not necessarily mean she was not inspired. This truth reminds us that we too are on a growth path. God will (if we surrender to Him) continue to mold us and make us into the person He requires (i.e., Moses, Peter and Paul), and as He did for Ellen White.
Jinha,
I have enjoyed your reflection paper because it hit home for me as well. Change is hard and needed for proper growth in everything that we do and if we don’t change we die. I once heard a saying: “The devil doesn’t care if you’re upstream or downstream, just as long as you’re extreme!” I think that is the main point that I pulled out of the class. We have to be very careful with the word of God and the Spirit of Prophecy and not abuse them in either direction. A balanced approach is what is needed in all that we do. Thank you for your comments.
Do you think that changing this thought of scriptures and Ellen White will be easy to do when you arrive at your church?
How will you take this new belief and administer it to a church that is conservative or a church that is Liberal keeping everything in balance?
God Bless
Geraldine O'Neal in her “Reflections From Section V” gave an interesting insight into the fact that true prophets build on top of what previous prophets have said rather than say things contrary to them. Ellen White used scripture extensively in her testimonies and build on top of, rather than undermined scripture. She provided greater depth into various Biblical principles including those on enjoying a life full of good health and happiness. The well documented longevity of Adventists attest to the benefits of the health principles God gave to His people through His servant Ellen White. They were way ahead of her time and modern science has exonerated her prophetic gift in this area.
Comment on "A Drowning Elephant and Wading Baby" by Simona Mills
First of all, you made an awesome point when you said, “I guess the key is in knowing when to wade, when to snorkel or when to put on your scuba gear when coming to scripture.” I find myself struggling with that as well. It seems that every day in class I learn that there is more and more depth to Scripture than I had ever imagined. That proves to me that this book has truly been inspired by God for only he could inspire one to write a string of words with so many layers beyond the surface. “Scripture can be deep enough to drown an elephant yet shallow enough for a babe to wade in,” is such a profound quote! I too have been challenged by our class discussions to approach Bible study with “three dimensional vision” – time, place, and circumstance. With the Spirit guiding me, I’m sure this new approach will bring a wonderful new perspective to my quiet times with God, but I also know that it’s going to shake up my spiritual foundations a bit as well. But I’m a believer that we need to have our faith shaken every once in a while in order for us to dig a little deeper in Scripture. I also agree that it’s refreshing to know that our prophetess took some time every once in a while to crack a couple of clean jokes here and there, between her busy life working for the Lord. - Comments by Jonathan Kim
Dani Carmona wrote an interesting reflection paper identifying the debate over whether Ellen White is a prophet as simply pure “Spiritual Warfare”. I agree with Carmona. The devil is in the middle of the debate about Ellen White’s authenticity and candidacy as a prophet. The devil has erected the White debate to create doubt about her role, her writings and her messages. What I find interesting is that those who attack her seldom have read her. Rather than studying Mrs. White’s writings, we are instead drawn to the works of other “safe” religious authors, all the while in search of truth. Carmona also points out that we are a church that seems to be slowly ebbing away from it’s recognition as the remnant church. Instead, many Adventists, even Pastors, appear to prefer the likeness of the mainline protestant churches, along with their methods of ministry. As Seventh-day Adventist future leaders, we have a responsibility to understand accurately the person of Ellen White, and our mission as a church. And getting it right means much prayer and study of the scripture which we always lead to truth.
Comment on Kendrick Cid reflection paper
Kendrick Cid thorough inspirational comment on the testimony of Jesus helps me to understand this concept with more enlightenment. By mentioning the Standpoint of Dr. Pauline convinces on his interest of the subject and clarifies the theory that the Testimony of Jesus is a gift. As all gifts are from the Holy Spirit Therefore the remnant Church is the Church that moves by the dictates of the Holy Spirit. Now I understand that whoever is looking for a blessing from God should be asking for the Holy Spirit which is the blessing of all. The biggest blessing that we have from the Holy Spirit is the incarnation of Jesus. It would be impossible for us to understand the Divine and the human nature of Christ without the direct intervention of the Holy Spirit on the Person of Mary. The blessing of the Holy Spirit works in a life time process through us and in us, preparing the soul for the encounter of the Redeemer. I like to add, base on the information provided by Kendrick on the test of the prophet, that Ellen White successfully pass those tests. And because she did, many skeptics who witnessed the Holy Sprit working through her accepted the message of the new Adventists.
Now my question will be:
1. By mentioning that the gift of prophecy has been restored through Ellen white. Is it mean that before Her the gift was destroyed?
2. If the gift has been restored could it be that other people will continue to benefit from it. Or the restoration was only for a specific period of time and for one particular individual since the seventh Adventist Church recognizes her only?
3. How does one’s consider the Theology of certain Churches that heavily base their teachings on the receiving of the Holy Spirit and The remnant Church that possess the testimony of Jesus which is the work of the Spirit?
Allens’ Comment on Kendrick Cid reflection paper
Kendrick Cid thorough inspirational comment on the testimony of Jesus helps me to understand this concept with more enlightenment. By mentioning the Standpoint of Dr. Pauline convinces on his interest of the subject and clarifies the theory that the Testimony of Jesus is a gift. As all gifts are from the Holy Spirit Therefore the remnant Church is the Church that moves by the dictates of the Holy Spirit. Now I understand that whoever is looking for a blessing from God should be asking for the Holy Spirit which is the blessing of all. The biggest blessing that we have from the Holy Spirit is the incarnation of Jesus. It would be impossible for us to understand the Divine and the human nature of Christ without the direct intervention of the Holy Spirit on the Person of Mary. The blessing of the Holy Spirit works in a life time process through us and in us, preparing the soul for the encounter of the Redeemer. I like to add, base on the information provided by Kendrick on the test of the prophet, that Ellen White successfully pass those tests. And because she did, many skeptics who witnessed the Holy Sprit working through her accepted the message of the new Adventists.
Now my question will be:
1. By mentioning that the gift of prophecy has been restored through Ellen white. Is it mean that before Her the gift was destroyed?
2. If the gift has been restored could it be that other people will continue to benefit from it. Or the restoration was only for a specific period of time and for one particular individual since the seventh Adventist Church recognizes her only?
3. How does one’s consider the Theology of certain Churches that heavily base their teachings on the receiving of the Holy Spirit and The remnant Church that possess the testimony of Jesus which is the work of the Spirit?
Allens’ Comment on Kendrick Cid reflection paper
Kendrick Cid thorough inspirational comment on the testimony of Jesus helps me to understand this concept with more enlightenment. By mentioning the Standpoint of Dr. Pauline convinces on his interest of the subject and clarifies the theory that the Testimony of Jesus is a gift. As all gifts are from the Holy Spirit Therefore the remnant Church is the Church that moves by the dictates of the Holy Spirit. Now I understand that whoever is looking for a blessing from God should be asking for the Holy Spirit which is the blessing of all. The biggest blessing that we have from the Holy Spirit is the incarnation of Jesus. It would be impossible for us to understand the Divine and the human nature of Christ without the direct intervention of the Holy Spirit on the Person of Mary. The blessing of the Holy Spirit works in a life time process through us and in us, preparing the soul for the encounter of the Redeemer. I like to add, base on the information provided by Kendrick on the test of the prophet, that Ellen White successfully pass those tests. And because she did, many skeptics who witnessed the Holy Sprit working through her accepted the message of the new Adventists.
Now my question will be:
1. By mentioning that the gift of prophecy has been restored through Ellen white. Is it mean that before Her the gift was destroyed?
2. If the gift has been restored could it be that other people will continue to benefit from it. Or the restoration was only for a specific period of time and for one particular individual since the seventh Adventist Church recognizes her only?
3. How does one’s consider the Theology of certain Churches that heavily base their teachings on the receiving of the Holy Spirit and The remnant Church that possess the testimony of Jesus which is the work of the Spirit?
Allens’ Comment on Enno Mueller paper
Enno Muelle chooses to write his paper on a hot topic that everybody is interested in or supposed to. The fact that he is concern about it, attest that he is an alert Bible student who is walking under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The great controversy theme that he selected is the heart of Ellen G. White writings too. Like he mentioned, every human being wrestles with this subject regardless your belief. That is an undeniable truth. And as his paper is so inspiring and rich in content he talks about another topic, this one pierces into the depth of Christianity. Certainly there is a big struggle today between conservative and liberal. To be honest, sometimes I don’t know what end of the cord to tear. That why I consider his paper relevant to our Christian journey. It helps me to think about my own struggle. The last view that I share with brother Mueller is his honesty. I am glad he can say aloud what everybody seems to deny. Human being feels more comfortable in generalizing matter. We need to challenge ourselves to leave room for diversity and others opinions. This is very encouraging to see somebody who is determine to think rather than to accept others people view blindly.
My questions are:
1. We all know that we need to have balance in life. Could it be that by focusing too much on balance, we make it become a law for ourselves?
2. What is our attitude when the general opinion considers something right unfortunately we have problem to accept it as an ultimate truth?
3. If the great controversy theme is so important, what would be the reason given by certain Christian authors who prefer not to write or talk about it?
Comment on "The Challenge Now" by Morumbwa Dickson
First, as a female it is so comforting to know that in Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female for we are all one in Christ Jesus. What a blessing to know!
Secondly, along with Galatians 3:28 and the Great Commission that christ gives us in Matthew 28:19,20 it is even more of a blessing to know that God has called us all even women to rise to the challenge of finishing the work and we all need each other to finish it. I personally am working toward loving all my brothers and sisters as Christ loves me so the world is able to see Christ through my witness. I pray for a time when we all can do this so we can finish the work and go home.
Thank you Brother Dickson, for your paper has inspired me. I will rise to the "challenge Now," for love will be the factor to make us one in Christ. This is how the world will know we are His Disciples.
"First Impressions and a Sense of Humor" by Bryan Laue
It's a blessing to know that a Pastor is interested in sharing this information with the churches. I think if our churches could have someone like Dr. Hanna come and give a systematic study on Ellen White and the Spirit of Prophecy there wouldn't be so many misunderstandings and misapplying her writings. Not having all the facts causes confusion. Just think of how comforting it would be to know that Ellen White has a sense of humor and is practical in what she has to say to the world. It think a lot of people would be suprised to see that she is a real person just like us.
May God bless you in your endeavors in this great task!
Evangelista Polanco
I have read the reflexion paper of Josue Manigat. He has stated one of my favorite theme about Ellen G. White It is about the demonstration that she was a true prophetess. One day in our class I share a comment about one of my students of the Bible who do not believe in Ellen White writings as a prophetess of the Lord. Josue has tried to explain how to recognize a true prophet. His statement helped me more to understand about these theme. In this way I can explain to my students too. Josue said that he understood the way that God works to meet people and to enlighten them according to their need. He also said that she was a simple person. After her accident when she was 9 years old, she continued being an ill person, but God used her as His instrument to show us that from a simple human being, He can make a great person in his or her obedience. Finally, Josue stated that if she was a sinner or not. I agree with him, she was, and that help me to understand that God chose sinner people. I agree, that if I repent of my sins and abandon them, God can use me as His intstruments.
Evangelista Polanco
Comment on The ceremonial and the moral law by Wayne C. Hosten.
This was one of the theme that I was better understood with our professor Dr. Hanna. I did not know that the ceremonial law was not abolished in a sense, but was fulfilled in Jesus Christ. When Mr. Hanna explained it I was amazing because I have never ever heard that explaination concerning to the ceremonial law. Wayne C. Hosten, stated that these laws fulfilled points to Jesus and places him at the center of the Torah. that give us understanding on the role in humanity salvation; past present and future. I remember when Mr. Hanna told us about that, but reading Wayne C. Hosten reflexion I have understood better this theme.Thank you Mr. Hanna for give us this space to share with our fellows, that have help us to understand better your explainations in class.
By Philip Dah
I appreciate Dani Carmona’s reflection titled Wanted: Better Instruction & Instructors where he says “The negative church experiences for our youth are far too common. Many have been “knocked down” with their developing questions because they’ve heard all too often that they cannot do this or that because “Sister White said…..” Because of the inappropriate application of her counsel, many youth associate Sister White only with restrictions and not with encouragement or inspiration. The youth learn to shun certain conversations around certain adults because they know what the response will be – another unpractical lecture that leaves little light on the matter.” I also have experienced this and saw many of my buddies while growing up leave God. I actually told myself when I left for college that I would never go back to the SdA church and doubted if God was real and even have this clear memory telling my mother how “I will never go to Andrews.” Ha, now I’m here. My experience with EGW changed when in Bible study four years ago when someone used her writings with much love, and after we had studied the Bible for much time. Many in the study were already in tears and the leader used EGW just to bring home what we already saw in the scriptures. I think we must challenge ourselves to always present Scripture and EGW in a caring way as we become leaders and instructors.
By Philip Dah
I appreciate stevie c. comments on race in our church. Some of his words are “Now that we are years into the future, can we look back and say that what was done then was worth it due to what we have now. I am still shaky about this due to the fact that the church is now still divided and race relations is just a fraction better that it was then.” I think he has been willing to address an issue many are not willing to face. I believe the time has come to rewrite conference lines within our church. Now is the time to dismantle our conferences and rewrite them based solely on geographic location only. This may seem radical but it makes sense…shouldn’t everyone in the same location be working together with one goal? It is so embarrassing trying to “explain” why we have two conferences in the same place. As we become the leaders of our church we should not be afraid to speak out. Who cares if we lose our jobs, there’s always Walmart.
Comment on Jonathan Burnett’s “Ellen White a Spiritual Lazy Boy?”
I must say that I was tickled by Jonathan's title. But as funny as the title is, unfortunately his conclusions are true. I have experienced people who knew exact quotes and where they are found for E.G. White but stumbled when quoting the Bible. While I don't claim to be a Bible scholar yet, I can say that until we actually follow the true and clear words EG White states when she says she is the lesser light pointing to the greater light (the scripture) then we will continue to stumble as individuals and a church into the "Lazy boy" and sleep right through the Second Coming of Christ! Thanks for the insite Jonathan.
Comment on Jonathan Pawson's
To Be or Not To Be… Paper 2
I feel your frustration oooozing out of your reflection paper when you talk about the "watering down of the scripture". I feel your pain. I sometimes get so caught up in the emotion of the way a minister, Bible class teacher or small group leader presents scripture based doctrine that I don't go back and read for myself. It is a creeping compromise we are increasingly facing when we begin to move away from scripture and base our knowledge of the word on the interpretation of an interpretation of an interpretation someone heard 6 years ago from a minister who preached for Youth Day. Members are not hot, bothered and drenched with the sweat of sin enough to dive into the cool pool of scripture and refresh their souls (myself included). I guess we really need to pray for each other and keep spreading the word that there is a place of cool refuge where our heated souls can find comfort... the Word, the Testimony of Christ. As for your title "To Be or Not Be" I choose to be and will proudly shout from the mountain tops "I am a Seventh Day Adventist... I choose Christ". If I perish, I perish at least I stand for Him (well lets hope I don't perish before I get the MDiv - just kidding). Thank you for your insight.
Comment on Enno Mueller's "The Great Controversy"
While I agree with your comment about "...the Great Controversy making life easy for us..." by answering life questions, I think that as you mentioned later on in your reflection, it can make us lazy and not "challenge" us to search further for deeper scripture based truth. Or even search to see if there is even deeper truth to find. My heart still races when I read about the last days in the Great Controversy and the events that the Bible and EG White write about that lead up to the end. I guess my fear comes from not always feeling that I am read-up, prayed-up or SDA theologied-up enough to stand in the end. I am with you on trying to be more willing to be open to the challenges of understanding the scripute outside of my comfort zone. Thank you for your insight.
Since the world is in total confussion with every dick and harry claiming to have divine revelation I support Dayv Lounsbury on his article "MESSANGER OF THE LORD AND THE REMNANT" where he makes a classic comparison between Ellen White and John as being very humble as opposed to the modern self proclaimed prophets. This gives us the beautiful picture of how Christ did miracles yet He was not ready to be assocaited with them.I believe that remnants will always get the right meassage from the most humble people identified by the writer.
Keep it on and your explanation will alter the critics' position.
"Should we Baptize Pork eaters?"
Eric Washburn, thanks for your wonderful insights.
Regarding the issue of the early Advent movement’s eating of swine’s flesh, you pointed out Ellen White’s statement:
“He will teach His church their duty… I saw that the angels of the God would lead His people no faster than they could receive and act upon the important truths that are communicated to them” (Testimony to the Church Vol.1, pg 206-7).
Yes, it is very thoughtful of God to first make sure the church has a structural base and unity of spirit that is needed to shoulder a health reform vision and other priorities.
It is amazing to see God’s patience as the Advent movement developed in its views (doctrines) and practice. God’s way is so contrary to the way we Adventists treat people who wants to be baptized. We go through a list of things they need to say “yes” to before we entertain the thought of baptism. Most of the time, we judge people outwardly, because we can be skilled at it. Who can judge people’s hearts, anyway?
1 I recall a book written by Richard Rice (Loma Linda University and La Sierra University professor) that is entitled, “Believing, Behaving, Belonging.” Which is first?
2 Do we want people to believe our doctrines first, then expect them to behave and imitate certain behaviors, then they can belong to our church?
3 Or do we lovingly show them that we want to serve them as Christ would serve them? Show them the Word of God and pray for the Holy Spirit to tug at their hearts and to win their hearts over through our loving witness and testimony?
Grace & peace,
Kendrick C.
"Should we Baptize Pork eaters?"
Hey Eric, here's another one.
I also believe in small groups – a place where people can be invited to taste and see what church is all about, where people can trust others, receive Christ(learn about God), receive strength, find encouragement and affirmation, be discipled, receive support and love without the pressure of having to believe and behave first. In other words, we give them the treasured gift first (belonging), then the rest (believing and behaving) as they are prompted by the Holy Spirit and our testimony. Eric, you are so right. The small group is where we can inject (show) that vegetarianism isn’t so bad, after all. In fact, we don’t need to hurry people to convert into vegetarianism. That is not the way to feed meat-eaters. FIRST, We’ve got to encourage them to eat more vegetables. That is the NUMBER ONE way to go. Help them learn to eat more vegetables by improving our way of cooking veggie foods.
I remember my wife who was a meat-eater, and could still be, if we aren’t together. When she first came to Hawaii from Philippines and experienced her first potluck in Molokai, Hawaii, she cried that week. I didn’t find that out immediately. Poor her. We have to LEARN to be considerate to meat eaters. Raw food and vegan(ism) is not the next step for them. The first step is to eat more vegetables; just simply THAT. Now my wife cooks the best vegetarian dishes. It is unbelievable.
So, when we were back in Hawaii, the church tried its best to encourage and show the community by inviting them to a dinner we called “Pathway to Life.” This dinner was to demonstrate to them that there are non-threatening ways to introduce them to the biblical ideal diet. FIRST, from eating pork and other unclean animals, they can begin cutting that off and eat simply clean animals like chicken and beef and fish. At the same time we encouraged them to eat more vegetables. This will help them transition much better. SECOND, they can choose to be lacto-ovo vegetarians. They could eat eggs and dairy products. We also encouraged the people to eat organic (dairy products, veggies, and milk and eggs). THIRD, they can choose to be vegans (no meat, eggs and other dairy products). And lastly, they can really engage themselves into eating raw foods (the healthiest).
This presentation gave people the idea that God was still on their side, still under the umbrella of the gospel. And we showed them that we were there for them to help them transition into a much better lifestyle.
ANOTHER POINT. I remember vividly elder Art Bushnell’s sermon where he showed a great principle from the story. Here is how it goes.
Rachel had stolen Laban's idols. Laban accused Jacob of stealing them so Jacob told him to search for them. Laban did not find them. Then, Jacob rebuked Laban. Laban had treated him poorly by changing his wages ten times. Then Jacob and Laban made a covenant not to harm each other.
Jacob sent messengers to Esau. The messengers told Jacob that Esau was coming to meet him with four hundred men. Jacob was afraid that Esau was coming to hurt him. So, he sent a present of many animals to Esau so that he would not be mad. Then Jacob split his family into two companies and prayed that God would protect them. (Gen. 32:7).
Jacob divided his family into two groups, “so that if one should be attacked, the other might have an opportunity to escape” (PP, 196). AND BUSHNELL SAID THAT JACOB WOULD NOT MOVE FORWARD FASTER THAN ANY OF THESE TWO BANDS. He patiently waited as he guided and protected his family. So should we be in treating other people.
Certainly, as Eric said, “we can learn a lot from how God has dealt with His people in the past, and practice the same kind of mercy, and patience He did to each other.”
God bless,
Kendrick C.
A complicated issue is made simple by Eric Washburn in his article 'should we baptize pork eaters?' in that the ceremonial laws nailed on the cross are valid to those who knows the role Jesus did on the cross.We cannot finish the divine work if we go against the laws of Health for example. So let us follow what God requires of us at all times.Jesus did all and we should do what is required of usand teach others this plain truth.
thanks.
Hello everyone.
I like the idea of using small evangelistic fellowship groups to introduce people to the experience of belonging even before they believe all the distinctive teachings of Seventh-day Adventism and behave accordingly. These small groups can also be our Sabbath School classes. We should promote Sabbath School membership by non-Adventists.
At the same time, to make this work we will have to make these classes friendly places. To often the Sabbath School Class is a place for legalistic Adventists to argue about disputed matters in such a way that we would hope there are no visitors present to witness such displays of heat without light! Fortunately, not all our classes are like that. Praise the Lord!
Martin Hanna.
A response to Dayv Lounsbury reflection, “Messenger of the Lord and the Remnant” by Eric Washburn
I enjoyed Dayv’s thoughts on why Ellen White chose her title “Messenger of the Lord”. Dayv with his sanctified imagination said that Ellen like the Angel in Revelation, might of took the title messenger so that John and God’s people would not worship a created being. I do agree with Dayv that people to hold her up, even sometimes higher than the words of Jesus. Occasionally people use her writings to cast judgment on others, taking seat in Jesus seat. I still wonder why she chose the title messenger over prophet. In the passage it doesn’t say that John wanted to worship the prophet standing before him, because a good Jewish Christian would never bow down and worship a prophet or even a angel. John mistakenly identified the Angel as being God. Ellen White even with the title Messenger of the Lord is still being worshiped by some. Could she have chose the name because that’s what God gave her, a message, or maybe the title of prophet had such bad connotation then, and even today, that most people would run from such a person.
I agree with you Dayv that we need to be careful about the claim of being the remnant in a pious and un-Christ like way. Or making the claim and not living up to all the spiritual standards of the that claim. I was thinking, even when Israel failed as God’s remnant nation, their was a remnant within who were still holding on to God. So even if the Adventist Church fell apart structurally, financially, and theologically, there would still be a remnant within the forfeiting remnant, still hold true to God and the testimony of Jesus Christ (all four revelations☺). I really believe a remnant is one of heart and obedience and not by denominational name.
1. Our church has many uncircumcised hearts, that are being used as tools in the hands of the devil. Should they be included as being part of the remnant? No way! A remnant is not a denominational umbrella that covers who ever is under it. A remnant to me not only has a message to preach, but also live out. What do you think?
2. Do you think the title Messenger of Lord/ prophet is a title that any of us can claim? A prophet doesn’t have to predict the future, couldn’t they be a preacher who is guided by God to write his or her sermon? Sometimes I feel we have blown these titles out of portion, and God is actively choosing people to speak for Him today. What do you think?
3. Does a prophet have to go in vision to be a prophet, could not God guide the prophet to the write down a passage and inspire his or her thoughts on a message for the people?
A response to Darlene Thomas reflection, “"Thanks for More Light" by Eric Washburn
Darlene, I too have seen things from a new perspective on the hand writing written against us, mention in Col. 2:14 being nailed to the cross. I have study with someone on the Sabbath and they than told me that it was nailed to the cross. I than gave a good old Adventist response telling them it was the ceremonial law not the moral law nailed to the cross.
I think we need to be careful to say what was discussed in class as new light or being true. Don’t settle with this being a “thus saith the Lord”, without really studying it out. I am sure if we dive into the Greek and read the whole chapter in the whole context of the letter, and even do a thorough historical study of presiding conflict they were confronted with we could come to a more solid position. Even than we should always be open to study or hearing another perspective.
I am not convinced as of yet that the moral law was nailed to the cross. I can agree that its condemnation that we deserve was done away with in the sacrifice of Jesus in our place on the cross. I do see from our class discussion that we need to be careful in our future studies with non-Adventist, to not to be so dogmatic in proving which law was nailed to the cross. And I think we should be careful in how we say the moral law was nailed to the cross if we do happen to be persuaded of that. We wouldn’t want someone to misunderstand us and think its okay to not keep the Sabbath, and all the rest of the Ten Commandments. As Dr. Hanna was trying to get across, something of both laws was nailed to the cross, but it doesn’t mean it is completely abolished. Both ceremonial and the moral law have principles that we ought to live out today.
I totally agree with you that the law leads us to Christ, and that we are not saved by keeping it. I know I do my best, which is not saying a whole lot, to keep the commandments. The God who sees all things, knows that I do not keep it perfectly. There is so many grey areas that I cannot not tell if they are sins or not. God didn’t spell out every sin, but gave us principles to follow. There is a lot of freedom in keeping the commandments, we as human wish God would give us a hundred of commandment in how to keep the Sabbath, so we can keep it perfectly. How do I know this, because we already have come up with hundred of rules on our own. God kept it simple, why do we try to complicate things. So what it boils down to, for me, is that no matter how successful I am keeping the law, its flawed. It is only through Christ perfect life being is presented to the Father in my place that my record is perfect. I will never be able to merit salvation, but it is only through Christ substitution that I will have full assurance of victory. Do we not keep the law because its not spelled out perfectly, or we will always fall short of keeping it perfect? No we keep it, and ask Christ to bridge the gap for us.
I agree with the warning that we should not carelessly speak of the law being nailed to the cross lest we give the impression that the law is abolished. We should exercise the same care that Ellen White manifested when she did not promote herself as a prophet because people misunderstand the meaning of that title. Similarly people will misunderstand if we say that the law was nailed to the cross.
At the same time, when the question arises as to what was nailed to the cross, we must have an intelligent and biblical answer. In order to do so, we must recognize that the term “nailed to the cross” has literal and symbolic dimensions.
On the one hand, Jesus was literally nailed to the cross. The accusation that he was king of the Jews was also literally nailed to the cross.
On the other hand, our sins are, as it were, “nailed to the cross” since Jesus bore our sins. Also, the accusation that we are transgressors of God’s law is, as it were, nailed to the cross when we believe in Jesus.
All of this is illustrated through the figures/types/symbols of the ceremonial law which is itself nailed to the cross in the sense that it was fulfilled by the death of Christ. Jesus is the reality to which these symbols pointed. The glory of the symbols are, as it were, abolished by the greater glory of the reality to which they point.
So I do not teach that the law was nailed to the cross and abolished. Instead, I teach that when Christ was nailed to the cross the law was fulfilled in Him. Also, when we have faith in Jesus, the law is also fulfilled in us.
Martin Hanna.
Josue you wrote, “Ellen G. W., as a prophet, is a confirmation that God meets people where they are…….” Josue ~ thanks for sharing your thoughts about God meeting people where they are. I truly believe that God is a wonderful instructor, and knows what we can handle and how much we can handle & when we can handle it. Like a parent knows when his children need instruction, God provides us with our needs. Josue, I am of the opinion the the Holy Spirit is a better teacher than any teacher on the planet. I’ve seen some incredible educators, who understand that students cannot be overwhelmed with vocabulary, language and information that is not relevant. They also understand that in order for OPTIMAL learning to take place & understand what you are reading, you must already know 90 percent of the words BEFORE you start reading (technically between 93 – 97 percent). A lot of research has shown that – it's called instructional level. If higher, it’s too easy (independent level) any lower, it's too hard (frustration level). Learning can take place within the frustration level but it takes longer as it interrupt the students fluency, Well, the Holy Spirit knows exactly what we need and when – thus no Heavenly mistakes were made with inspiration Sister White’s ministry – the mistakes were & are all down here on earth’s side! Thanks… dani
Stevie C, regarding race issues in our church...
I want to thank you for your courageous words and inspiring all of us to Christian action…. There is so much work to be done, and so much forgiveness that’s needed. There is so much that has not been revealed, and so much we need to learn from each other…. In the spirit of extending on your solid comments, allow me to share some thoughts…
Reflection of our Heritage!
I believe that race relations in the SDA church are a reflection of race relations in U.S. history. Just read this next sentence, “It’s late at night, noticed by a police officer, a Black man is seen driving his car into an affluent neighborhood, the officer ……” What happens next? The sentence and situation is loaded. I invite you to read it again. How one responds to the blank above reveals our attitudes, preconceptions, and experience. Obviously, there are dozens of ways to respond. There is no “one right” answer- because it “depends” on our attitudes, preconceptions and experience. Yes, we may go to church on Sabbath, but we still live in America. We are all affected in one way or another by this larger culture. Race relations are real. By this I mean they are still here TODAY. To BE an American or live in America, means to be a citizen or resident of a country with a rough racial background. It is touchy business, and it can get messy. It is also complicated. Denying the issue does not make the issue go away. It may be a knee-jerk reaction, but denial is not an appropriate response. What is denial? The dictionary helped me here, denial is: “disbelief in the existence or reality of a thing” “refusal to recognize or acknowledge” “in Psychology an unconscious defense mechanism used to reduce anxiety by denying thoughts, feelings, or facts that are consciously intolerable.”
All of these apply to how many Americans – and Adventists - have traditionally responded to race issues, by pretending it is not there.
I propose that this larger culture HAS had an effect on SDA culture –more than we believe.
Consider the following:
•There are presently 9 SDA regional conferences in the U.S.
[Regional conferences in Adventism are not exclusively, but historically, African American conferences].
•Regional conferences have a membership of approximately 300,000 members.
•In 2003, nearly 30% of new baptisms in the North American Division (NAD) came from regional conferences.
•In 2004, regional conferences comprised nearly 30% of the NAD population.
SDA congregations racially divided? It may SEEM disharmonious with our global mission, I PROPOSE that a review of history may shed some light on this multi-faceted & complicated discussion.
Adventists don’t live in the United States of AMNESIA. Please let’s remember the following:
*Black people were involved in the Millerite movement, although he never officially took a stand, the anti-slavery orator Frederick Douglass became a believer in the movement. His daughter Rosetta Sprauge became a member of the First SDA Church in Washington, D.C.
*The names of several African-Americans appear in Millerite publications, Father Bowles, John Lewis, and William Foy.
*Strong promoter of racial equality, Sister White understood the negative influences of slavery, and landed heavily on the White brethren at General Conference Session in 1891 in Battle Creek, MI. The E. G. White Estate archives show the following record:
"Understanding the growing restrictions being applied to Blacks throughout the southern states, she [E.G. White] recognized that she was plunging into an explosive topic, “but I do not mean to live a coward or die a coward.” She pointed out that “the black man’s name is written in the book of life beside the white man’s. . . . Birth, station, nationality, or color cannot elevate or degrade men.” Further, those who “slight a brother because of his color are slighting Christ.” Then she turned to the church’s neglect, acknowledging with regret that “we have not made a greater effort for the salvation of souls among the colored people.” She recognized that she was referring to “perplexing questions,” that both White and Black Adventists were needed to educate millions who had been “downtrodden” for so long, and that church workers in the South “must not carry things to extremes and run into fanaticism on this question.”
*In 1878, J. L. Loughborough baptized C. M. Kinney in Reno, Nevada who later became the first African-American ordained minister of the SDA church.
*Uriah Smith baptized Sojourner Truth in 1887.
*It was culturally OK for early Adventists to exclude “colored” from their worship services.
*In 1909, the General Conference established the Colored Department to foster the work among African-Americans. The first secretary of this new department was A. J. Haysmer, a Caucasian.
*TEN years later in 1919, the first African-American was appointed to the leadership of the GC Colored Department, W. H. Green, a Washington D.C.-lawyer-turned-Adventist-clergyman.
*For the next ten years Green worked out of his Detroit residence. He was not given office space at the GC.
*By the time F. L. Peterson, an African American, was appointed in 1929, the GC officers provided office space for him at the headquarters.
*In 1939, Elder Crowe, an African-American ordained minister was called to work in Indiana district for the Lake Union – the church workers of color faced SEVERE disparity when compared to their White counterparts. During this difficult time, most African-Americans hired by the SDA church were hired as janitors. African American members complained to church administrators to have equal hiring of their ministers into SDA organizational structure. Black members wanted to be INTEGRATED into the life of the church in more ways than janitorial service. Black members called the conference to follow the Biblical mandate and INTEGRATE. In response, the Lake Union Conference President, J. J. Nethery, suggested that Blacks be given their own conferences because the CHURCH leadership did not want integration. There was an understanding among the White conference officials that should colored conferences develop, they would quickly collapse due to poor administration and the colored members would come back crawling to re-join the White conferences.
*In 1944, then, the Lake Region Conference of SDA, the first Black conference was established.
*During the same year, other than cleaning staff, the only other African American at the General Conference was Elder Peters, secretary of the Negro Department.
*In 1945, Blacks were allowed to eat at public cafeterias in Washington, D.C. In the same area, Adventists were still behind on this matter, thus, Elder Peters, an African American GC elected official was denied service at the Review & Herald Publishing cafeteria – even though White non-Adventists were admitted. His wife had to make his lunch every morning in a brown paper bag. Sometimes we Adventist “out-herod Herod” we do worse on race relations than the world.
*Elder Crowe submits that today, the GC is much more integrated BECAUSE of regional conferences opened this door.
*In 1943, Lucy Byard, a Black Adventist woman, died after a Washington, D.C., Adventist hospital refused to admit her as a patient.
*In 1961, two GIANTS in Adventist History, Frank Hale and Mylas Martin – both African Americans Adventists, organized laymen under the Laymen’s Leadership Conference LLC for the purpose of: (1) ending segregation and the “quota system” in Seventh-day Adventist schools; (2) ending employment bias in the Seventh-day Adventist Church organization; (3) ending the Seventh-day Adventist denomination’s “silence” on its race problems; (4) ending segregation in every Seventh-day Adventist congregation; (5) republishing, by the church’s leadership, of Ellen G. White’s earliest writings on race, collected under the book title The Southern Work.
*At the 1962 General Conference in San Francisco the LLC – loyal to the church – requested a meeting with Ruben Fighur, the GC president. At first, he said, yes, then sent another Elder to tell them that no GC representative would meet with them. The LLC’s contingency plan was to go public, so on July 2. 1962 – they did just that holding a press conference. The invited list was extensive:
“The New York Times, Time magazine, Associated Press, United Press International, San Francisco Chronicle, San Francisco Times, Los Angeles Times, San Francisco television and radio stations, and other media outlets. The story broke the next morning and went nationwide. Wire services even took it to several countries in Europe. Nothing like this ever before had happened in our church communion. It brought the start of stunning change… On Sunday morning, July 29, 1962, the General Conference in session elected Elder Frank L. Peterson as a vice president, the first Black American to be elected to that post. In August through December, 1962, a number of Black Americans were appointed to positions within union conferences, at the Review and Herald Publishing Association, and at educational and medical institutions. In 1966 the church republished the long-out-of-print “The Southern Work.”
Issues continued, in 1965, Adventist boarding academies, elementary schools and colleges in the U.S. routinely practiced racial segregation. Many refused to accept any Black Americans. Yes. Columbia Union College, Southern Adventist and Southwestern Adventist universities were three higher institutions that REFUSED to accept Blacks. But all of the others used rigid quota systems. They yearly limited the number of Black Americans enrolled. This was not unusual treatment.
Sister White consistently followed the Biblical belief of integration, yet she understood the complexity of racial cancer in the U.S. – she was NOT in denial, when she wrote regarding race relations at THAT time:
“I said plainly that the work done for the colored people would have to be carried on along lines different from those followed in some sections of the country in former years. Let as little as possible be said about the color line, and let the colored people work chiefly for those of their own race. In regard to white and colored people worshiping in the same building, this cannot be followed as a general custom with profit to either party—especially in the South. . . . This is particularly necessary in the South, in order that the work for the white people may be carried on without serious hindrance. Let the colored believers be provided with neat, tasteful houses of worship. Let them be shown that this is done not to exclude them from worshiping with white people, because they are black, but in order that the progress of the truth may be advanced. Let them understand that this plan is to be followed until the Lord shows us a better way. . . . If you see that by doing certain things which you have a perfect right to do, you hinder the advancement of God’s work, refrain from doing these things. . . . All things may be lawful, but all things are not expedient.”
The context of her statement was in the late 1800’s – a challenging time in America. Are we in the same condition today? Some Adventists believe that we are completely OK. OF COURSE race should not be an issue in the light of the cross – BUT IT IS! Twenty years ago, my wife attended SDA boarding school, I won't name the state, where her class was openly taught by the White teacher, that when we get to Heaven, the White folks would go visit the Black folks on their side of Heaven. The teacher was not kidding, and the teacher could not be corrected on the matter, as this was a legitimate belief - by a certified SDA teacher. This is not that long ago... There are uglier stories, I will not mention them here, Spend time with Black Adventists and ask them if this is currently a real phenomenon or not. So where do we go from here? It’s not enough to sing, “Oh How I Love Jesus” & disenfranchise our brother – this has been part of the experience in America!
Some propose that black conferences be dismantled and reorganized by joining in mixed congregations. Some would certainly see this as an intrusion on their religious liberty to worship according to dictates of their conscience, experience, worship style, and CHOICE. Others might assume that there is embedded racism in presuming that White conferences are more “legitimate” Adventists than Black conferences. So who is more Adventist, Black or White bretheren? Who should dismantle their organization, Blacks or Whites? Should the Black conferences break up their conference and join the White conferences or vice versa? Should the conferences be redistributed? Who will have oversight over the “redistribution” of members? How will local constituencies react? What about “white flight”? White flight is a real estate (not exclusively) phenomenon in which Caucasian Americans move from their residence [they sell their homes and leave to another] once a number of African-Americans move into their neighborhood. Does going to church on Sabbath stop white flight? Sadly, my experience has been, “No.”
Better yet, who will tell the specific Adventist minority stories of HOW the Lord brought us through? Are the stories worth telling? I believe with ALL my heart that they are a testament to God’s Hand working in the affairs of humankind. Same as Black History, I believe IT IS American History (not just cool stories to tell in February), I believe that regional conference history IS legitimately Adventist history. This may be the first time that some have even heard of this part of Adventist history. Here is a question for the reader - Why do most Adventist history students not know the names of the Black leaders mentioned in this article? Why are their stories not told? Are their names and stories relevant? Doesn’t the fact that they are coming up on a blog site speak in itself? Friend, we have a situation on our hands. A serious situation.
Are we getting better? Yes, but historically speaking, in the grand scope of things, 100 years is not a lot of time. It was just 100 years ago that severe racial laws were in effect – and I have mentioned other more recent events in this writing, and have excluded current uglier experiences. Think of what has happened in the last century, yes, there has been change, but we are still sick. Stevie, you are right, talk is a start, but more action is needed.
In Feb 2003, the Office for Regional Conference Ministry [OCRM] received NAD Church Status – this means “full status” as an official church entity. Friends, the official church position is one of support for regional conferences as a legitimate worship entity – I say amen for the support. But look at how we got started? Have we grown as a people since then? Are the conditions that started regional conferences the same that exist today? Is having a historically African American church relevant? Is it a sin? If someone is thinking of dismantling regional conferences, what's next, Oakwood College, Pine Forge Academy (a historically black boarding academy in the U.S.)?
Incredible growth in evangelism, leadership and baptism has occurred because of regional conference development. If I had been an adult living fifty or sixty years ago, what would have happened to me without a regional conference? If your skin color looked like mine, what would become of you? What would have happened to my voice? Would I even have a voice?
Where do we go from here?
1. Most Adventists simply do not know the history. History is relevant. The action I am proposing is to begin a movement to encourage the discussion & review of history about race relations at the division level, which should trickle to the unions & conferences. Even if we have already done it in the past, do it again, this time get some younger church members involved (this generation has a different experience & therefore completely different take on this topic). I am open to a supporting ministry either leading or being involved in the discussion if its too heavy for the division.
2. Set a time table for action. What action? I don’t know. But there can be no action without at least a partially informed discussion first.
3. Switch conference presidents based on race for a year as a trial – this is pretty radical, like a reality “switch show” (this may be improbable given the legal constitutions of our conferences – but we need something like this). Although I am not sure if this one is going anywhere, the thought here is that EXPERIENCE is the best way to learn and identify with someone else’s experience.
4. Utilize the experiences and example of other SDA congregations, conferences, & divisions (in other countries - I am thinking of Sotuh Africa) who have already been there by inviting them as consultants.
5. Determine that reform must come – but WITHOUT splintering our organization. At all costs, no matter what, we will still be Seventh-day Adventists.
6. Start a prayer network on race. Like Count von Zinzendorf, who started a 100 year continual prayer movement – folks took turns praying around the clock for a century…
FINAL THOUGHTS
There is an understanding among Catholics that one’s political party and nationalism end when & where the pope says - its called ultramontanism. Ultramontanism is a religious philosophy within the Roman Catholic community that places strong emphasis on the powers of the pope. In particular, ultramontanism may consist in asserting the superiority of Papal authority over the authority of local government or spirit of the times. It literally refers to support for those dwelling "beyond the mountains" (ultra montes). When it comes to supporting the pope, for Catholics, there is an understanding that red & yellow, black & white, no matter the color, the pope is right! Loyalty to the pope is to transcend racial hang-ups / nationalism or ethnic hang-ups or baggage. Regardless of race, the pope and his mandates come first. If the pope says jump, well you know how it goes… Why are Catholics better at laying down their race issues for the pope than we are to obey our KING on the matter of race? What does this say about us when we compare our faith to theirs considering what we believe about Catholicism?
Galatians 3: 28 ~ There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Thanks
Dani
Works Cited
Regional Voice, Commemorative Issue 7/21/05 , Office of Regional Conference Ministry, http://www.regionalministry.org/index.html
White, E.G. Testimonies, vol. 9, pp. Washington, D.C.: Review and Herald Publishing Association, 199-215.
White, E.G. The Southern Work, Washington, D.C.: Review and Herald Publishing Association, 1966), p. 10. Found in the Ellen G. White Estate Official Website,
http://www.whiteestate.org/books/mol/Chapt19.html#note56
To Be or Not To Be . . .
by Jonathan Pawson
I think there is a very good point in this article. Although, I think the answer is only present indirectly, Morumbwa Dickson gives a clearer understanding of what the solution should be. Jonathan points out correctly that we are living in a pluralistic society where anything and anyone can come up with theological ideas. I also believe that there are certain guidelines in how we study and approach the Bible that need to be applied. Otherwise we can come to any understanding. Instead of getting hung up on the age long dialogue of conservative vs. liberal I think we need a new paradigm shift. This is where I believe Morumbwa Dickson has the right solution. Regardless of what we look at, regardless of what source it comes from we need to test it with scriptural principles and in the end it has to be Christ centered. This should be the rule of faith and should be our determining factor for truth.
What is a Prophet
by Si On Sung
I have enjoyed this reflection paper, because this honest response reminds me that I have thought similarly. Too often we see the idea of a prophet singularly as Ellen White. Well we know that in the history of our earth there have been so many more. And to think that this gift is limited to only EGW is false as well.
I think Si On also made a good point in referring to what the mission of the church is. I think often we distinguish the two, but after reading the paper I have to say that the two inevitably go hand in hand.
I want to respond to "Ragnheidur Olafsdottir(Lala)
Reflection paper nr.1
Sola Scriptura and EGW as a bonus!!"
Your testimony blessed me. It was great to find Ellen White's writings to be so helpful in your growth as a Christian, and it's refreshing to hear how she always pointed you to the Bible. I have found the same true in my own life.
I think that in some ways you have an advantage in becoming an Adventist 11 years agp. Having grown up in Adventistism there is a tendency to think that you know it all. So many of us who have grown up in the church have never really read Mrs. White or studied the Bible for ourselves but we know just enough to make us think we know it all. So many of us play with our spiritual food because we have been fed so well all our lives that we don't feel hungry. So we push it around the plate picking and chosing which parts look the most appealing and that is what we eat. Consequently we are malnurished and weak. The challege I leave for myself and everyone who may read this is; has spending 30 hours discussing issues relating to the life and ministry of Ellen White caused us to spend more time reading her writings to gain a deeper understanding of the Christ she knew, loved and lived for? If not maybe we have spent this time in vain.
I want to respond to darlene thomas "A Prophet In These Days"
I am glad to hear that the Holy Spirit is so active in your life and leading you to a deeper understanding of truth.
I have heard people say that the gift of prophecy ended with Revelation. This view reminds me of how the Jews thought that prophecy ended with Malachi. I too have had my understanding of what prophecy is deeped by this class. Something that especially blew my mind was the thought that angels in heaven also have Spiritual gifts. The angel told John that he was one of his brethern who also had the spirit of prophecy. Maybe when we get to heaven we will understand that prophets are beings who are able to recieve messages from God and pass them on better than other's or maybe anyone can be a prophet is God so chooses. In anycase it is true that God can raise up a prophet at anytime.
Off shoot movements are never welcome at anytime. We must be careful that we do not pursecute them. We should take the attitude that Jewish Rabbi who trained Paul, Gamaliel, who argued not to fight against off shoots. If what they are proposing is of human origin it will fail but if it is of God you will not be able to stop it. If we review the history of the Advent movement out of all the groups that came out of the great disappoinment only the Seventh-Day Adventist's are still growing. At the last count our church had 16 million members and the next largest adventist church has about 6,000. We should reluectantly with sadness be forced to seperate from brother's who will no longer walk with us and also keep the door of reconciliation open to them.
Dear Jonathan Pawson (In the beginning…Paper 1),
I appreciate how you brought out the White family’s dedication to sacrifice. There is no doubt in my mind that these two ministers’ lifestyles truly mirrored Christ’s priorities. They truly walked the talk. That is not to say they were perfect, because they could have found a better balance between ministry and their children. And this same zeal may have contributed to the physical and mental breakdown of James. I know James and Ellen White walked closer with Christ than I ever will, so I do not question their passion or commitment. I just think that today’s ministers must find a Spirit-led balance regarding sacrifice.
I also appreciate how you focused on the Whites’ commitment to each other. I cannot think of many contemporary examples where a ministry team of both husband and wife genuinely love each other and their calling. But even if we ourselves are not formal ministers like the Whites, this couple’s legacy still shows us how to love our spouses. I like to believe that they loved each other in so far as they loved Jesus. And not only were they under the added stress of being ministers, but one of them was a prophet. Ha! Imagine having a prophet for a spouse. I would venture to say that many of us would have failed miserably, and perhaps that is why James was the “best man to ever wear shoe leather.”
But the most thought provoking question in your essay was, “How can the church stay connected with such differing views about the spiritual gifts in our church, and where do these thoughts about Ellen White come from?” I too have struggled with this question since my early childhood because I could see even then how people were approaching her, understanding her, and applying her. I believe Adventism can indeed exist – but cannot thrive with such a divergent hermeneutic on EGW. Leaders are too busy being firefighters than evangelism equippers. Our energy and resources are directed internally at Adventist issues, that there is little left to focus on reaching people for Christ. Google “Ellen White” and see how critics either attack or bait us, forcing us to fight the battle on their terms of the legitimacy of Ellen White, instead of on our terms of the beauty of Scripture.
If people know us better as Seventh-day Vegetarians ® who uplift a prophet, instead of as movement of three angels’ gospel messengers who lift up Christ, then I think we have failed. Participating in field school just a few weeks ago has convicted me that despite the immeasurable blessings of the seminary which I am forever thankful for, I am better prepared to make Adventists better Adventists, than make seekers better disciples.
- Kevin Kim
Dear Jonathan Burnett (Ellen White a Spiritual Lazy Boy),
I appreciate your creative take on seven major divine judgments in the history of the world. With this framework, you show that the hour of God’s judgment has always been with us. This confirms what we discussed in class regarding 1844 as being just one of Christ’s judgments. I also agree that God saves His people, and I would also suggest that judgment is always two-fold: punitive and redemptive. There needs to be greater understanding on the part of Adventists in this area. There are too many former-Adventists because the wrong presentation of the investigative judgment led to a lack of assurance, which ultimately resulted in fear.
I also appreciated those questions you raised about humanity falling under the natural law after sin. I always realized that creation was cursed because of us and that our relationship with nature was fractured (just like our relationship with God and with each other). But I never considered the idea that fire would not harm us since we were made to live in the presence of a God who is a consuming fire. While I am not sure about the walking on water thing, I agree that we should include the natural law when we are studying the moral and ceremonial.
But most of all, I am grateful for your treatment of the issue of Ellen White being used as the rule of faith and practice. Like you so humorously mentioned, the spiritual gift of prophecy was never intended to be featured in films like Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. Whether Ellen White or Paul, the writings in themselves have no power to change people apart from the Holy Spirit.
This is really the crux of the issue for me. Legalism is not just a narrow-minded lifestyle or an emphasis on works, but according to the Bible, legalism is doing anything without the Spirit. This suggests that legalism is closely related to the unpardonable sin of blaspheming against the Holy Spirit. Spiritual things can only be discerned by spiritual means. I would suggest that perhaps Professor Hanna’s model of theology (Christ-centered, Bible-based, and relevant to the world) can also include “Spirit-led.” This is only a suggestion since Professor Hanna has probably already included the Holy Spirit into the model. I would insist however that the component of the Holy Spirit must be subordinate to Scripture. If we are truly the remnant, the Holy Spirit was not a just a blip on the radar at the turn of the 19th century.
- Kevin Kim
Eric Washburn,
"Human Like Me"
Much of what you said,wer expressions of my sentiments exactly.
I appreciated reading the thoughts that you shared of E.G. White's concept of the family because it is impossible to look at her inspirational contributions and overlook the sacrifices and loses that this family experienced. I empathize with them in their losses of children and significant others, because of three recent losses in my own family. Furthur evidence of the presence of God working in her life was His help in overcoming these adversities. Just as God was a very present help for me, he is aavilable to all who call upon Him... it's just better to know Him before trouble comes.
Vital to me also from a human perspective, was the discussion of the letter of apology that was written as well as relating a vision that ultimately helped in the recovery process for her husband who was also a close friend.
I had started a discussion in one of my reflection papers with my views of the closeness of the marriage union that was evidenced not only in her responses to him but in James' support and expressions of endearment toward Ellen. Because of lack of space I reduced my comments to summarize sacrifices that this family, both E.G. White and James white made for truth. Thank you for your thougthful contribution.
May God bless you to continue to share a compassionate nature of God in all that you do. Best Wishes!
A Sister in Christ,
Geraldine O'Neal
Eric Washburn,
"Human Like Me"
Much of what you said, expressed my sentiments exactly.
I appreciated reading the thoughts that you shared of E.G. White's concept of the family because it is impossible to look at her inspirational contributions and overlook the sacrifices and loses that this family experienced. I empathize with them in their losses of children and significant others, because of three recent losses in my own family. Furthur evidence of the presence of God working in her life was His help in overcoming these adversities. Just as God was a very present help for me, he is aavilable to all who call upon Him... it's just better to know Him before trouble comes.
Vital to me also from a human perspective, was the discussion of the letter of apology that was written as well as relating a vision that ultimately helped in the recovery process for her husband who was also a close friend.
I had started a discussion in one of my reflection papers with my views of the closeness of the marriage union that was evidenced not only in her responses to him but in James' support and expressions of endearment toward Ellen. Because of lack of space I reduced my comments to summarize sacrifices that this family, both E.G. White and James white made for truth. Thank you for your thougthful contribution.
May God bless you as you continue to share a compassionate nature of God in all that you do. Best Wishes!
A Sister in Christ,
Geraldine O'Neal
A reflection to Stevie's paper.
Steve your paper was good and rose a couple of things that bother me also. You brought a question up that still applies to my life. You said this, "This opens another question, should pastors in the Adventists faith preach on the authority of the writings of the messenger, like many do today, or on the words found in scripture?" What do we do as pastors? I been at churches where pastors preach and half, sometimes more than there seromons are on Ellen White's quotes. These pastors will say that they do this because Ellen White is a prophet of God and we should not be ashamed in any way of her and her writings. If she is a prophet of God and has a message for His people, let it be known. I struggle than with the fact that we are trying to reach the unchurched. The majority do not know of Ellen, and most unchurched come to try out Christ. And so when they hear the sermon and hear Ellen White here and Ellen White there, you can just imagine what is going on in their minds. This is troubling for me. I believe our emphasis as pastors is to lead people to Christ and His love for us, before we present them to the "messenger of the Lord". Once they find Christ than it will be easier, I think, to lead them to the heavier food, which icludes the writings of Ellen White.
Then my other question would be when is it the correct time to present her writings to the individual and the church? We cannot just ignore her teachings. Her writings are definitely for the endtime in which we live in. Do we present her writings or study material during personal bible studies? Or do we do it during sabbath school or prayer night?
We definitely need a balance, but I say make sure we present Christ first, than the rest will come in place.
Salvador A. Garcia's comment/posting on Jose's Reflection Paper for Week #2
Jose, I would like to commend you and congratulate you for continuing your reflections and thoughts beyond the class discussion and conversations. You have clearly shown that you have have been seriously thinking about the subject of biblical inspiration and prophecy. If you continue on this path, you will grow in your knowledge and understanding of inspiration and biblical prophets/prophecy, and will be a source of knowledge and blessing to others you encounter in your ministry for Christ.
Three things that I would like to say in response to your reflection for week #2:
1) First, in thinking about the human personality of Ellen G. White, I think that you have expressed the need to have a balanced biblical understanding of the ministry and gift of prophecy. You have stated how Ellen White was "not perfect" (perhaps in the sense of not being sinless, or without human character flaws), and yet God called her to fulfill the role of a prophet, as God had previously called Hazen Foss and others who did not respond to God's call to the prophetic ministry. I think that the biblical doctrine of inspiration and prophecy is clear that there is both a human side and a divine side in biblical inspiration and revelation. God uses the human prophet and writer to communicate a divine message (2 Pet. 1:19-21).
Second, I would like to comment on your thought about the need to know the biblical tests of a true prophet in the day and age that we live in. You mention three criteria that can be used to test a person to see if they are a true or false prophet: 1) Christ-centered, 2) Biblical, and 3) Relevant to the World in which they live. I agree with you, and think that you also would agree to the biblical tests of a prophet delineated in the Bible, and given in class. In today's society and age, many individuals claim to have the gift of prophecy, and as a Christian Pastor and Teacher, you have the privilege of sharing the tests of a biblical prophet and showing other "misinformed" or "misled" individuals, the true tests of a Biblical prophet from Holy Scripture. Even within the dissident movements in Adventism and "offshoot movements", there exist claims by these movements and groups to the gift of bible prophecy. For instance, the Shepherd's Rod Movement believe the Victor Houteff, a Bulgarian immigrant, had the gift of prophecy, like Ellen G. White had. Yet his life and ministry, do not harmonize with his claims to having the gift of prophecy. So this subject as you see, is rich not only for preaching, and teaching, but also for correcting and instructing in righteousness.
Thirdly and finally, you raise the question of receiving a spiritual gift similar to that of Ellen G. White. While some may object and think that your statement is on the verge of making a claim to biblical prophecy or the like, I think that you have recognized the true nature of spiritual gifts. You have recognized that while some gifts are greater than others, God gives all believers spiritual gifts to exercise in the church and in the world. God bless you as you use your gifts for God's glory (1 Cor. 10:31).
Reflection on Jose's paper 2nd week.
I agree Jose that distinguishing a true prophet from a false prophet is relavent today. Christ said Himself that in the last days there will be false Christs and fals prophets. If there are false prophets during the last days there should also be true prophets. Today we have in South America people who are saying that they are Christ. I found out that one Adventis elder became a follower of one these imposters. I believe this is just the beginning. Ellen White says that Satan will disguise himself as Christ and we need to be ready to defend our beliefs, because he will definitely convince the elect.
I also find it interesting the timeframe Ellen White became to be a prophet. During the late 1800's we see a lot of activity spiritually. We see false prophets arise such as Joseph Smith and others. We see also false teachings increase during this time. With this I see a strong force at work. Satan is doing all he can to confuse people from the truth and present truth. Now that this earth is closer than ever to it's final days, we must be prepared for more confusion and distractions from the enemy. May we be all prepared with the armor of God.
Salvador A. Garcia's comment/posting on Jose's Reflection Paper for Week #2
Jose, I would like to commend you and congratulate you for continuing your reflections and thoughts beyond the class discussion and conversations. You have clearly shown that you have have been seriously thinking about the subject of biblical inspiration and prophecy. If you continue on this path, you will grow in your knowledge and understanding of inspiration and biblical prophets/prophecy, and will be a source of knowledge and blessing to others you encounter in your ministry for Christ.
Three things that I would like to say in response to your reflection for week #2:
1) First, in thinking about the human personality of Ellen G. White, I think that you have expressed the need to have a balanced biblical understanding of the ministry and gift of prophecy. You have stated how Ellen White was "not perfect" (perhaps in the sense of not being sinless, or without human character flaws), and yet God called her to fulfill the role of a prophet, as God had previously called Hazen Foss and others who did not respond to God's call to the prophetic ministry. I think that the biblical doctrine of inspiration and prophecy is clear that there is both a human side and a divine side in biblical inspiration and revelation. God uses the human prophet and writer to communicate a divine message (2 Pet. 1:19-21).
Second, I would like to comment on your thought about the need to know the biblical tests of a true prophet in the day and age that we live in. You mention three criteria that can be used to test a person to see if they are a true or false prophet: 1) Christ-centered, 2) Biblical, and 3) Relevant to the World in which they live. I agree with you, and think that you also would agree to the biblical tests of a prophet delineated in the Bible, and given in class. In today's society and age, many individuals claim to have the gift of prophecy, and as a Christian Pastor and Teacher, you have the privilege of sharing the tests of a biblical prophet and showing other "misinformed" or "misled" individuals, the true tests of a Biblical prophet from Holy Scripture. Even within the dissident movements in Adventism and "offshoot movements", there exist claims by these movements and groups to the gift of bible prophecy. For instance, the Shepherd's Rod Movement believe the Victor Houteff, a Bulgarian immigrant, had the gift of prophecy, like Ellen G. White had. Yet his life and ministry, do not harmonize with his claims to having the gift of prophecy. So this subject as you see, is rich not only for preaching, and teaching, but also for correcting and instructing in righteousness.
Thirdly and finally, you raise the question of receiving a spiritual gift similar to that of Ellen G. White. While some may object and think that your statement is on the verge of making a claim to biblical prophecy or the like, I think that you have recognized the true nature of spiritual gifts. You have recognized that while some gifts are greater than others, God gives all believers spiritual gifts to exercise in the church and in the world. God bless you as you use your gifts for God's glory (1 Cor. 10:31).
Salvador A. Garcia's comment and response to Ezekiel Nichols' Reflections for Week #2
Brother Ezekiel. I want to commend you for bringing your previous experience as a pastor, and your undergraduate knowledge about the ministry of Ellen G. White into your reflections and thoughts discussed in your paper. You have commented on three important issues, and I would like to respond and comment briefly on those three points.
First, I think that the "fifth test" of a biblical/extra-biblical prophet that you mention (Deut. 18:1-4), having to do with avoiding the occult or divination, is important for understanding the true role of a biblical prophet and the gift of prophecy. Now a days, with the many "prophets" and spokesmen/spokeswomen in the New Age Movement (Spiritualism), people like Shirley Temple and Paramahansa Yogananda (The Self Realization Temple / Hinduism) who claim to communicate with ancestors, spirits, and guides, need also to be "tested" by all of the biblical tests of a true prophet. I think that if we teachers and preachers of the Word of God, can share all the biblical tests for a true biblical and inspired prophet, many in false movements such as the New Age and Spiritualism will hear the voice of God and "come out" and become a part of God's flock and fold in these last days in which we are living.
Second, I appreciate your question dealing with why God allows people to accept/reject his call to be a prophet, and why it seems that God almost always wins! You raise the important issue of free will and God's sovereignty, and I think that as Seventh-day Adventists ministers , pastors, and teachers, we need to have a biblically informed postion and theology on Free Will and God's Knowledge of the future. I know that in my undergrad, I was exposed to George Rice's view on Open Theism, the Open View of God's knowledge, or Openness theology. I don't think his view answers all questions, but it shows that as Seventh-day Adventists, we are struggling and moving in a positive direction. The Biblical examples in Scripture teach that God does not force his call upon most prophets (Moses, Jonah, etc.), but at times his call is so strong, that it is almost overwhelming (Jeremiah 1). I think that God's pursuit of those he foreordains and chooses to serve him in a special way is powerful and strong, but still allows the individual to exercise their freedom of will in choosing or rejecting to serve God in that particular capacity. What do you think?
Third, your emphases and comments on Remnant Church Theology is important for all of us "servants in Divinity" (Not just pastors, but all the body of Christ) to remember as we share the Three Angel's Messages which include the Everlasting Gospel (Rev. 14:6). While the Bible clearly teaches that God has a Remnant Church in the end of time on this earth, God's remnant church are not an exclusive club and are called to "God and make disciples" and to compel others to come into the Banquet Hall of Heaven. I told my wife today, that being at Andrews University has helped me to reflect upon a hidden danger that we face as Seventh-day Adventists who live and work in "Adventist Ghettos" and Institutions. It is possible I think, to grow up in an Adventist home, go to Adventist Schools (K-College), work in Adventist Hospitals, Schools,etc., and associate and buy groceries only with other Adventists and at Adventist stores, and fail to interact and mingle with God's other children who are still "outside" of the reaches and confines of Adventism. How tragic! That's why I told my wife I personally feel compelled to work outside of Adventist institutions, and mingle with God's children, both Christian converts and non-converts, in an effort to be the salt and light of the world in my small sphere of influence for King Jesus! May your comments, ministry, and example reflect the Gospel of Jesus Christ and his invitation to "all nation, kindreds, peoples, and tongues!" God bless you!!!
Linda Wooning’s reaction to Kendrick N. Cid “An epistle and a temple of the Holy Spirit”
Reading this reflection paper, made my heart pound faster! If he continues like this, I believe his future congregation will be very blessed! The author compares certain Pauline texts about us being the Holy Temple of God, in which the Holy Spirit dwells. The author makes the point here, that we also are holy because the Holy Spirit which is holy, lives in us. What a wonderful thought! We are partakers! God sanctifies us, this is in accordance to Ezekiel 20:12, in which God states that He will sanctify us.
The author stated this very interesting question cq. remark: “the ceremonial systems are being fulfilled in the hearts of people by the Holy Spirit not only through the Bible but also through the inspired writings of Ellen G. White. They still apply in our lives in a spiritual sense.” Could this be true? Are the ceremonial laws still spiritual? Or, where they fulfilled by Christ (type met antitype) by which they automatically became spiritual through the life and example of Christ? Interesting questions. Why would God spend so many chapters / books in the Bible on the ceremonial law, and then to do away with them, somehow, it doesn’t seem logical. Do the principles still apply? In my home church in the Netherlands, I compared the situation there (children running around) to the temple in the OT. If God had so many rules / guidelines, why wouldn’t the principles of that still apply to church here? That is also God’s house, His presence is there when the congregation comes together on His special Sabbath day to worship Him. Maybe the author has a point, and are the ceremonial laws spiritual still. Where does Ellen White come in? I think by pointing us back to eternal truths, pointing us back to the life and example of Jesus Christ.
The author goes on to say; “. Ellen White also wrote in Evangelism: “The word of God is our sanctification and righteousness because it is spiritual food. To study it is to eat the leaves of the Tree of Life” (138). Which is why Jesus Christ Himself said, “The words that I speak to you are Spirit and they are life” (John. 6:63).” We are to study the Scriptures, the entire Scriptures. Why should she urge / encourage us to do that, if half the things written in it, don’t apply to us anymore? Most likely, there is a much deeper implication to it then people realize (including myself of course) when we say that the ceremonial law was nailed to the cross, abolished and done away with.
The author connects Haggai 2:7 to this all. He concludes that ‘this house’ refers to the people of God, although I wished he or she would explain why he or she believes it that way. Although I have no reason not to believe it, it would make it easier if there would be Biblical interpretation to it. But reading the verse, it can also apply to the church, individuals, and yes, God’s people. It all comes back to the beginning, “I will fill this house with glory.” Moses asked God to show him His glory, to which God responded with the following words; “The Lord, the Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth” (Exodus 34:6). Isn’t that wonderful, the glory of God, which is revealed in the face of Jesus Christ, will come into our hearts by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, that we to, might become partakers of the tree of life!
Linda Wooning’s reaction to Eric Wasburn’s paper “Should we baptize Pork eaters?”
The first part of Eric Wasburn’s third paper entitled “Should we baptize Pork eaters?” sounded very familiar to me. I too struggled with the ‘new’ interpretation presented in class about both laws. He writes that the new interpretation (or new understanding) of both the moral and ceremonial law being nailed to the cross (that is, our transgression of the written record) is in sharp contrast to only the ceremonial law being nailed to the cross. But if that would be so, who has the ‘Spirit of discernment’ to distinguish between temporary truths (e.g. sacrificial system) and eternal truths (e.g. health laws). For if the entire ceremonial law was nailed to the cross, or abolished, and the health laws were done away with, God went contrary to Himself by anew revealing those truths to Ellen White, as if He regretted doing them away. Which of course doesn’t make sense. J.N Andrews had an interesting statement in his Sabbattract (1854), he writes: “The fulfillment of the law is obedience, not abolishment.” Could this be the case in view of the principles of the ceremonial law being ‘nailed to the cross’, or done away with, or fulfilled? Christ was obedient to the law, even obedient until death, that by His death, type met antitype and the law was fulfilled; to that sense that the principles are still applying to us.
Eric wrote down another interesting statement, “But verse 25 goes on to say that we are no longer under the law, but under Christ. I think we are no longer under the condemnation of the law, but it requirements of obedience are still binding upon us. Jesus abolished the consequences (condemnation) of the Law that we deserved in His flesh, so that we who believe can stand as new creature in peace with God (Ephesians 2:15).” With my little theological background, it is like the pantheism crisis, truth and error are so close, and the line between them is so thin, it is hard to say where truth ends and error starts. But reading this statement, brought my mind to Romans 6:23; “For the wages of sin is death.” If Jesus did abolish the consequences of sin, why would Paul write this, many years after Christ died? Maybe Eric meant that we are no longer under the condemnation of sin, because Christ gave us an example how to live the law, that by faith in Him we become righteous. This is such a complex issue, and at many times so far beyond my understanding! Skip MacCarty has an interesting point in his new book “In granite or ingrained”, which somehow relates to this point. He makes a distinction between the experimental new and old covenant. The old covenant is a heart of stone, the new (experimental) covenant is, when we by faith in Jesus, have the law written in our heart, and by faith keep it. If that makes sense, we are no longer under the schoolmaster, for the schoolmaster is in us. This wasn’t mentioned in class (as I remember), but my own thoughts upon it.
In his second part of the paper, Eric reflects upon the reading. What amazes me is that it took the Advent believers 20 years to organize into a church. 20 Years is quite a long time. But perhaps it was good that it took a long time. A tree that grows to fast is thin, and will break in two when a heavy storm comes. But a tree that grows slowly, which has its roots deep down, will withstand whatever comes. Maybe this applies to the formation of the church. They developed their doctrines, and formed a unity upon those truths, binding the all together. Anyway, Eric points out God’s patience in dealing with humankind, in waiting to give the health message after they were united on more important matters. But does that make the health message less important? Or was God so gracious, to give the growing body of believers one truth at a time, so that they wouldn’t be too overwhelmed. Eric compares this to evangelistic efforts that take place nowadays. People get many new truths presented in a short time, and are expected (we pray for that) to accept the Biblical truth. He points out that, as God waited for them to give the health message, maybe we should too. And yes, in one sense, I agree and understand were he is coming from, it is not a salvation issue, but it seems among certain groups that they make or present it that way. On the other hand, God didn’t give us the health message to confront the world and make them follow it, or else…. God intended it to be a blessing, for both physical and spiritual health. There is a great influence between what we eat, and how we perceive God’s Spirit knocking on the door of our heart. God wants to bless us, also with spiritual health. People are so quick to blame God when they get sick, but might it not just be the result of their own actions (e.g. long cancer when one smoked for a very long time). Looking at Ellen White’s time, people weren’t as far in their understanding of health as we are now. People were advised to smoke, to relieve or cure long diseases. We know better now!
Although Eric doesn’t directly answer the question asked in his title (Should we baptize pork eaters), the direction he is heading, would answer this question with a yes. In a sense, I agree with him. It is not a salvation issue, but on the other hand, it was important enough for God to give a vision, and spend directly two chapters in the Bible on this topic. Who are we to decide if it is not important enough? What if we would baptize this person, and later on he found out he had been deceived? It is a delicate matter, but many truths are. Ellen White writes wonderful advice for this: “We should choose the right because it is right, and leave the consequences with God” (GC 460).
Salvador A. Garcia on:
"Should People Be Baptized Into The SDA Church Who Are Not Aware of the Prophetic Ministry of Ellen G. White?"
Hola Salvador,
I share your appreciation for the wealth of information received in classroom discussion in The Life and Ministry of E.G. White. Your paper touches upon many interesting questions for contemplation. I agree with your statement that E.G. White's messages are relevant for everyone including non-Adventist. Just think of all of the writings that many have read and through the guidance of the Holy Spirit have led them into this Bible teaching church. Interestingly enough, some non-Adventist share a greater thirst for the writings than people of the faith.
It's perceptive that you mention the mission of this church
which is to proclaim to all people the everlasting gospel in the context of the three angels' messages in Rev. 14:6-12. The commission of Jesus is to lead others to accept Jesus as their personal Savior and to unite with His church, and nurture them in preparation for His soon return.
I think it is the responsibility of the
preacher or bible intructor to teach from the Bible the doctrinal beliefs before baptism. They should also go over the baptismal vows prior to baptism. This can be accomplished through bible study classes. At the point and time that the Holy Spirit convicts a person, just how thorough their understanding of the doctrinal beliefs, remains to be seen. I feel that is where nurturing is essential. Additional study after baptism can come through participation in a New Believer's class or a Baptismal Class for an indepth continuation of Bible Study.
Salvador, I would like to express this view that we share: Jesus is not willing that any should perish, but that all should
come to repentance. II Pet. 3:9. Let us stand on the promise that if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.I Jn.1:9.
Whosoever will Let Him Come.
Which would you prefer?
Let's take a hypothetical situation of a young man or woman just recently baptized, without the understanding of Spirit of Prophecy or a candidate by letter of transfer without the same. Within a short period of time that person discovers that he/she has a terminal illness. Would you rather that person be denied a short period of fellowhip and acceptance of Jesus along with the fellowship and friendship of like faith or on the other hand, be denied baptism and die not experiencing the joy of renouncing the world and engaging in a closer walk with Jesus and fellowship with kindred faith? Which would you prefer?
The scriptures say there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth. Luke 15:10
Best wishes as you continue to lift up the meaning of you name Salvador (Savior) to a dying world.
Best Wishes,
Geraldine O'Neal
I totally agree with Dani Carmona’s reflection, “Spiritual Warfare.” I feel it is more than echoing a fear or frustration, but really putting a finger on the problem of identity, who or what do Seventh-day Adventist believe in? While it may be true that our grandparents, parents, pastors, and anyone who misused Ellen White as a substitute for the Bible or a tool of coercion or even to foster complacency, that’s not her fault. Today, in my experience, the greater problem is not legalism but licentiousness. As we have studied this past month, God uses various means to reveal Himself including the spirit of prophecy. While our definition of spirit of prophecy has been broadened, at least for me, it in no wise cheapens the already established prophetic ministry of Ellen White; in fact, it ought to strengthen our belief, unabashed promotion, and careful study of her writings. The Seventh-day Adventist church was established by God for these end times to point the world back to Him, letting it know the eternal truth, God is Love. The eternal destiny of souls depends on that message. With the stakes that high, God, whom is longsuffering not willing that any should perish but all would come to repentance, would bask in the sanctified, abundant life and be safe to be saved, thereby entering into the joy of His Salvation for all eternity.
Would He mess around and give a prophet that we would not have to pay attention to, read, study, and even share her work with non-SDAs? After all, she is the most translated women in the world. Could she be an end time prophet for this world? Sacred history shows us the danger when God’s prophets are unduly criticized, marginalized, philosophized, and then ultimately, fossilized. In the ministry of Ellen White, we have live messages for these end times. They are lesser light to the Holy Scriptures but they are light nonetheless!
Today, as spiritualism is making its march via the megachurch movement throughout Christianity; as eastern mysticism puts on the Christian garb and is repackaged as contemplative prayer as well as breath prayer elements of “spiritual formation” or discipline (does Ignatius of Loyola ring a bell?); as our ministers and members drink at these wells for spiritual nourishment only to thirst again; it is our duty before God, to study His lights of truth, pray for soul conversion, and proclaim the Three Angels Message for a world hungering for the Truth. Arrogance has no place in the lives of Heaven bound folks but neither does acquiescence. With all that has been said, I definitely see my need to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit to be fully furnished as a minister of the Gospel of Jesus Christ in these last days. Ellen White pleaded for this and the fruit of her ministry shows us that God is faithful to His Word. I need to know that.
Mitch Williams’ reflection, “The Sanctuary Doctrine” really struck a chord with me. When I was a child, I loved going to Sabbath School, meeting my friends, and, even though it took some getting used to, I could even get into the sermon. I loved reading my Bible, especially the biographies and miracles of God. However, around 10 or 11, my little bubble burst when I started hearing about judgment. I could not help but think of it as me being busted as the world found out about all my sins and failures as off to hell I went. My parents, pastor, and schoolteacher explained the concept but I think in the back of my mind or may be somewhere closer to the front, I wondered what my actual position in the judgment is. Years would pass and I actually stopped going to church regularly deciding I would be my own god. After 10 years, I accepted God’s call to come back home. I think my problem all along was I really never knew Jesus. As I studied His life, His sacrificial life and brutal death on my behalf, I knew and know that He loves me. But what about judgment? I am no longer confused, nor scared, nor have a distorted view about judgment. Why? Because of the Sanctuary doctrine.
David tells us in Psalms 77:13, “Thy way O Lord is in the Sanctuary, who is so great a God as our God?” The character of God can be seen in the sanctuary. He redeems us, sanctifies and equips us, then forgives us, and confesses us before the Father, thus paving the way for our glorification. Who is so great a God as our God? We do not deserve this love at all! Yet, the sanctuary is all about relationship. In Exodus 25:8, the Lord tells Moses, “And let them make me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them.” God counts us among His People. Could it be, because He fully understands what the sanctuary must accomplish if we simply submit to the One who walks among the candlesticks, a representation of His Church (Revelation 1:20)?
The Sanctuary teaches us about the God we serve. Again, the Psalmist declares, “To see thy power and thy glory, so as I have seen thee in the sanctuary” (Psalms 63:2). It is reassuring to know that my all powerful Savior and Lord who craves relationship is in the sanctuary on my behalf. However, He has made me a promise that if I confess Him here on earth, He will confess me before the Father in Heaven (Matthew 10:32). This is vitally important, and, again, why I appreciate Mitch’s focus on the Sanctuary message. As Jesus now stands in the Most Holy Place conducting the Investigative Judgment commenced in 1844, I do not have anything to fear as long as I decide to allow the Holy Spirit to dwell and work in me, confess Jesus and He will confess me before the Father. Now judgment is no longer vengeance but vindication and Jesus vouching for my place in Heaven based on my spiritual choices! This is too good to keep to ourselves. We definitely need to strengthen the faith of SDAs in the God given sanctuary doctrine but while doing so, let’s not forget the rest of the world Jesus unashamedly died to save.
I would like to make a comment on the reflection paper posted by Wayne C. Hosten. Especially attracted my attention was the statement, “Perhaps the only solution to the competing interpretations of the ministry and role of Ellen White is to evaluate her in the light of Scripture.” Throughout this session, I have been thinking how we can evaluate the prophetic ministry of E.G.White. He gives us the concrete method for evaluating the office of the prophet. To do that will not only encourages our faith, but also help our church protect itself against other denominations or non-Christian people. However, remaining question is how we consider the relevance of the prophetic work of someone to the world in which we live. When we talk about the relevance to the world, can we say that "if something/someone has more relevance to the cosmic, it is the better revelation than the other?"
As Wayne says in the last paragraph, “as we go along, I hope I become more knowledgeable about her so I can share her with others.”
Another comment that I would like to make is also on the reflection paper from Wayne C. Hosten. He explains in detail in the paper on the second week lectures the distinction between the ceremonial law and moral law using biblical evidences. I have been an Adventist for about six years now and rarely taught the distinction between these two kinds of laws. And without knowledge, I could hardly make a distinction between two sets of laws. Thus, I agree his statement that “now, I do not assume for one moment that the intent of the holistic approach is to equate the two laws in such a way that the distinctions are not explained but it can easily appear to do so.” As Adventists, we should discuss and talk more about the laws, even if it is not pleasant to do so.
"The Cosmic Christ in the Scriptures"
Thwnk you for the excerpts that you shared from the book.
Cosmic Doctrine: A definition for cosmic is having to do with the universe as a whole.
Universe is defined as all space including planets and stars.
The Bible infers that thaere are three heavens. II Cor.12:2
The first heaven is the atmospheric heaven, where the birds fly; the second heaven is the stellar heaven, where the sun, moon and stars move in orbit; and the third heaven is Paradise, where God's throne is. Gen 1:8,20, Ps.8:3,4, Ps.103:19.
Incarnation Doctrine: The doctrine that the Son of God was concieved in the womb of Mary by the power of the Holy Spirit.Matt.1:18,22-25; Luke:1:26-38.
Also Jesus is true God and true Man. But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death. crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.Heb.2:9
Other scriptures, II Cor.8:9, Phil.2:6-7, II Pet.1:16...The disciples were eyewitnesses.
John 1:1-12. in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
All of Genesis 1&2 beginning with vs. 1: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth, show the Christ of the the cosmos and earth including the creation of the first man and woman, Adam and Eve.
Although the earth is blighted by the pollution of sin, still nature testifies of the awesomeness of the God of Creation.
I had planned to share a poem that the Lord blessed me to write on the beauty of his creation, but time does not permit.
Blessings and Peace!
Geraldine O'Neal
Somona Mills week 3 paper
I really enjoyed your paper on the third week of this class. I too have had my core shaken in regards to the traditions that I held as biblical truth. I realized during the last few weeks of class how necessary it is for all church members from the Pastor to the janitor to study the word of God. I realize how easily we just follow the letter of the laws without truly understanding the meaning of the law. I agree with what you said about how we try to place our beliefs in nice and efficient boxes, hoping that in doing so we can easily return to those boxes when a situation arises and we need to unload this carefully placed information. I was left at the end of some of the discussions with the phrase “dose not compute, Danger Will Robinson!!” flashing across my fore head, but the best part of this was the yearning to study deeper and to learn more. This is the true essence of the study of scripture, to be humbled by the word while still being intrigued and yearning to learn more and to go deeper. The great thing about scripture is that it is immense enough for us to be awed by the majesty of our God but still small enough for us to know that that same God is with us every step of the way.
-A comment on "Ellen White Human like me!" by Eric Washburn
I've always wondered why we-SDAs- call ourselves "The remnant" and are criticized because of it by other denominations.
Reading the reflections of the classmates to write a comment, I found Eric's thoughts on the reasons why we can be remnants make a lot of sense to me.
And like Eric describes, I feel a little hostile to the assertion of some SDA that we are the remnant because of the "Spirit of Prophesy".
He wrote:The remnant is group of people who keep the commandments, and have the scriptures which that testify of Jesus Christ. So, having Ellen White doesn’t make us “The” remnant, but having the scriptures does. This means to me personally that the remnant is not a denomination but any individual believer who holds the Bible as the rule of faith and practice (Commandment keeping included).
I totally agree with his opinion about the identity of "the" remnant. Having E.G.White doesn't simply make us "the" remnant. And the title "the" remnant doesn't gurantee us salvation.
I believe that there was always a group of people who deserve the name "the" remnant such as the Waldenses who strived to keep the scripture as precious as their life and devoted their lives to live the Scriptures through the history. God planted the seeds of His true followers at each corner of spiritual devastation through the history and with His Holy Spirit, God led their way through and made them stood upright in the truthful faith in Him so His saving truth can be blazed and carried to the mankind.
The question of whether we are "the" remnant or not is not so important as far as I'm concerned because I'm pretty sure that God will not ask us "Are you the remnant?" and also the name of the remnant won't be the crucial matter when we try to introduce our Father to those who don't know Him, yet.
We will have to face the final judgment with Jesus' protecting Grace and at that moment, "the" remnant who has had the truthful faith in Christ and had lived their life as "the" remnant will remain as "the" remnant.
"The" remnant who will be appeared to be "the" remnant when the final scenes of the earth start are already "the" remnant. I'm not talking about predestination but the truthful identity as "the" remnant.
There's a daily question for everybody. 'Am I living my life as a real remnant today?'
One of the articles that caught my attention was the one posted by Steve Creft. He said, Mrs. White wrote “When Christ healed disease, He warned many of the addicted ones, ‘Sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee’ (John 5: 14). Thus he taught that they had brought diseases upon themselves by transgressing the laws of God, and health could only be preserved by obedience.” He said he had a really had a hard time moving off this line, “how could she say this?” Then he said, how can a woman who seems to be sick most of her life say that sickness comes from the sins of the person or their ancestors? When he heard this having a mother who is fighting cancer and a sister that struggles with sick-a-cell, he struggled with this thought how these things could be their fault. Too often when we don’t view things holistically we will find era. The good thing is Steve was able to discover later on that his questions were answered as he continued to search. I am glad that he did not stop at the first answer that Ellen gave. Later in his paper he states “now what was so awesome about this prophet was that she was willing to fix what she said and fix her mistakes.” He found a quote where she realized era in her previous statement and she was willing to express that God is a redeemer and restores the sinner and makes them whole.
Professor Bernett and the Ellen White Lazy boy
I really enjoyed your paper and I must say laughter is good for the soul and I thank you. I have been a victim of “verbal martial art of ‘Whitekido’” so I know the pain this can cause. It is true that we wish for the easy way out of the true study of the word. I am guilty of taking the easy way out of my own personal study like you said with the digital versions of Mrs. White’s writings it is real easy to just type my questions into the “magic 8 ball”. You also got me thinking when you pointed out the 7 types of judgment, it is great thought that I look forward to looking deeper into my studies of the word. The last point that you made concerning the natural law and how we now fall under its jurisdiction was another eye brow raiser and a great discussion point that I would love to use in my youth group discussions. Thank you again my friend for the essay.
Comments on Simona Mills paper “Shaking the Foundations of Tradition”
I found this paper to very relevant to me. Simona starts off with an important question. What is the true foundation of my beliefs, traditions or biblical truths? I thought I knew what they were until I experience the challenge of looking at scripture in a holistic view and studying it where is in not biased or no longer biblically based. Too often I find myself trying to convince myself of certain doctrines or theological ideas never understanding the text fully. I have discovered that I have done more isogesis then exegesis. Trying to make things fit that is not there. Simona spoke about the ceremonial laws, she said “for years I have been taught and convinced (not by my own personal study) that the ceremonial laws have been done away with. I must admit, that is an easier argument to support rather than the view point that laws are not abolished. Jesus said it Himself that He did not come to change times and laws but came to fulfill them.” I believe that it is important for us a church to shake the foundations of tradition. It is my belief that we should minister as Jesus did on earth. There are times where it will be necessary to shake the foundations of tradition by being: Christ centered, Bible based and Relevant to the Cosmos.
-A comment on "The Spirit of the Law goes beyond the letter." by Jonathan Burnett
I came to think and realize more about God's love toward me menifested in God's law reading Jonathan's reflection.
Jonathan writes:We so zealously try to preserve the truth that we have (and so we should) that we are guilty of destroying it. Truth is living and therefore it must grow and develop. If we try to keep it by preventing it from growing, we will cause it to decay and die.
God wants to reveal Himself to us. He reveals Himself because He loves us. He reveals Himself in various ways. Law is one of the ways through which He reveals who He is.
Truth itself is everlasting and can never be changed. But I believe that the ways of applying it to a human life and interpreting it can be changed because our understanding and the prospective about the truth can be changed according to time and culture. Human beings change, not God or the truth. It's we that sets the limits of the truth, the love of God and the manifestation of God's character.
So, I would say that there's some flexibility in the application of the nature of the truth even though the truth is never changed.
We are human full of limits and boundaries. So, we can learn and enlarge our capacity of applying the truth through our mistakes with the help of the Holy Spirit.
The issue will be whether we have the courage to apply the developed truth into pratice and the humility to accept the fact that we might make mistakes in the process of applying the developed truth into our life practice.
God's recommendation to us is simple and clear. "Keep growing in the knowledge of knowing me till the truth can be fully blossomed in your life..."
"And we pray this in order that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and may please him in every way:bering fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God..." - Colossians 1:20 -
Hello everyone. I am enjoying reading your comments and I really appreciate the courtesy your are demonstrating to each other in your discussions. Here are a few comments that I would like to share concerning some matters mentioned by various participants.
First, I agree with the suggestion that in addition to being Christ-centered, biblical and relevant to the world, authentic SDA theology should be Spirit filled.
Second, there has been some good discussion about WHEN to present Ellen White to non-Adventists. I would add that equally important is HOW we present Ellen White. As some one mentioned, our presentation of Ellen White should be Christ-centered, biblical, and relevant to the world, and of course Spirit-filled.
Third, I agree that there are some dangers involved in using the CDRom technology to find statements that agree with what we want Ellen White to say. At the same time, this technology is excellent for helping us to find everything she has said on a subject. Therefore, if we are looking for a holistic interpretation we can find it through this technology.
Fourth, I would like to comment on the subject of teaching doctrines to those whom we baptize. We should survey the entire scope of SDA theology for such persons. It is improper to baptize someone into the church without informing them about the beliefs of the church. At the same time we should adapt the depth of our survey to the readiness of the individual. All persons do not have the readiness to study each aspect of our doctrines in equal depth. Therefore, it is important to continue to teach new members after baptism. The suggestion someone made about a new member Sabbath School class is a good one.
Fifth, God does have a visible remnant institution in the world today which is the SDA church. This continues the precedent from the Old Testament when God had an institutional remnant which was the nation of Israel. At the same time, there is a spiritual remnant which consists of the true believers within and without the visible remnant! We must not assume that we are automatically part of the spiritual remnant because we have membership in the visible remnant.
Sixth, both Jesus and Ellen White teach that sickness is a result of sin. If Adam and Even had not sinned there would be no sickness or death in the world. In addition, our sinful lifestyles can contribute to sickness. Even medical science is demonstrating this fact.
At the same time, there is a need for seeing the other side of the holistic biblical teaching on the relation between sin and sickness. Both Jesus and Ellen White teach that the fact that someone is sick does not necessarily indicate that their sickness is directly related to their personal sin. We should not judge those who are sick to be greater sinners than those who are not sick!
Lets keep this discussion going. Its fun!
Martin Hanna.
Lala commenting on Darlene's reflection.
Darlene Thomas said...
Reflection #3
"Just A Thought
I decided to comment on Darlene's reflection since I saw she was writing about the various problems God's people have concerning the Sabbath.
In my mind came the thought of how many problems indeed we have when it comes to Sabbath. We as Seventh day Adventist are always struggling with what to do and what not to do on the Sabbath. But while listening to Dr.Hanna's lectures it came more clear to me that when we are in Christ, His Spirit will remind us and educate us to the right approaches to be in God's presence on Sabbath. We all know the feeling when we feel that we shouldn't be doing this or that on a Sabbath and I believe that it is true what the Bible says..if it is not done in faith then it is a sin. If we realize that what we are doing is not appropriate for us (and perhaps will damage our relationship with Christ)..and yet we do it!...then we are being disobedient and we do not follow what the Spirit of God is trying to enlighten us with.
And because Sabbath is all about our relationship with God, then God will have to respond to us in a different way(because each relationship is unique)...not because HE has changed...His law will forever endure and His Character..but more like...I have much to say to you but you cannot understand it yet..you can not bear it yet...(like Jesus told His disciples)
Therefore if we as SDA would consider that some are not as close to God as perhaps others and perhaps not as enlightened , then we would do much better in our "freedom in Christ"...we do not have to worry about everyone else...all we have to worry about is what is in OUR heart...because after all, God cares about what is in our heart...is is hatred towards those who do not keep Sabbath like we do? Or is it tolerance like God has for us EVERYSINGLE day of our lives.
I do appreciate Darlene's comments about this...especially about that God will never change and we should think about that. But my response is more like an ongoing thought about these various problems that I feel are constant in the SDA church.
May God bless each and everyone of us to love His commandments and to have the faith of Jesus, Amen.
Lala comments on Si On Sung reflection paper;
Title: What is Prophet
Si On Sung
Reaction Paper #1
I couldn´t but agree with Si On Sung about the fact that while we thought we were taking a class with Ellen G White we barely touched on that topic that first week...rather, the professor was very biblical and took us on a theological journey wich was very interesting.
Looking back I do feel that this course was such a blessing. Though we didn´t always talk about Ellen White in class our discussion still harmonized with her writings...Because after all Ellen White was always pointing us towards the Bible.
I believe that many of us were quite curious before entering this course, but as we traveled together through the various topics I feel that the class became more and more relaxed towards Ellen White. That tells us that most of the time, all we need is EDUCATION and to look at things in a new perspective...in a Holistic way of thinking. The "Holistic thinking" took on a new meaning for me during this class and for that I am ever grateful to Dr.Hanna wich is a wonderful teacher. Overall I was enormously blessed by reading the book and I can wholeheartedly agree with so many of the students reflections.
Si On Sung wrote about that the course revealed what a prophet really is, and it was a blessing to graps the fuller meaning of what it means to be a prophet. And I am not sure that the “church in general” can really grasp and understand what a prophet really is. And what comes to my mind is that , many years ago I watched a film where the leading actor always said “explain it to me like I.m a five years old”…I thought it was funny at that time..and even though I cannot remember what film it was then I always remembered this phrase because some of us…or some of the people out there do need explanations…we are going out into a field, where people have a dwarfed thinking when it comes to thinking of theological terms…we must go out there and explain it all to them…but sometimes…like they were five years old…and let´s enjoy it!! Because the harvest is reap and all they sometimes need is to be taught and explained to.
Also…thinking about all the students who have been brought up as Seventh day Adventists and still haven´t gotten the real meaning or understanding of the term “prophet” then how can we expect to reach to those who are very far away from the Lord…We have to let the Lord educate us, enlighten us and then He will give us words to speak when it comes to explaining it to others…Lords blessings to all of you,
Lala(from Iceland)
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