Post your comments on your colleagues' papers: Summer 2008.
This thread is reserved for your comments and ongoing discussion regarding the papers posted in the previous thread.
47 comments:
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Response to Scottie Baker: This comment is in response to Scottie Baker’s posting. I really enjoyed the way you expanded on our thoughts from class. It was great seeing your mind at work and going further with your understanding. Your additional scripture passages were helpful to me because you presented them in a clear and distinct way that progressed smoothly and really added emphasis to your point of the testimonies being seen metaphorically as “Light.” I agree with your statement on Ellen Whites writings being lesser to scripture due to the fact that she was not adding to them, rather casting light into darkness and allowing believers to be led back to scripture. Thank you for your careful and concise understanding and presentation, I appreciated it.
In response to Tammy post: Tammy it seemed to startle you in referring to the Holy Spirit = E.G.W. This phrase also was foreign to me as well. I think that this choice of words can be seen as ambiguous to Adventist or non-Adventist. I like how Dr Hanna simply explained from the Bible that the testimony of God = Jesus and that the testimony of Jesus is the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of prophecy. Then he explained from the Bible that one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is the gift of prophecy of which sister White had. Using the Bible as my reference this is the way in which I will now explain Ellen White and the Spirit of Prophesy. I think that this is simple way in which any Adventist or non-Adventist could understand. Enjoyed your post! Keenan
My response to Shelley Leblanc post: I really liked how you brought personal application at the end of your paper. It’s kind of scary to think that when we die someone might go through our email, blogs, home video, and ask other people what they thought of us. I think Douglass does a good job of searching EGW past to see who she really was. However I think he’s a little basis just because he’s a SDA, I think it would be interesting to have someone look at EGW who’s not a Adventist. Maybe they would focus on other things that Douglass avoided. I know the books of heaven has a record of our whole life, there’s nothing hidden up there. I think it would be interesting to read what God recorded about our own life. I don’t think He’s basis, unless you’re covered by the blood of His Son. ☺
I would to begin my reflection on my colleague’ paper by saying that he did a great job in assessment the fundamental issues surrounding the life of E.G White and Herbert Douglass’s book. My colleague seems to make some pertinent discoveries about the person of E.G Whites as well as her prophetic roles and ministry. All these are important elements which would help us to better understand her writings and at the same time position us to provide more accurate explanation about her counsels to each other and our flocks. My colleague appears to find comfort and hope in the fact that sister White was not a supernatural human being, but rather a normal person who was inspired by the spirit of prophecy. In addition, even though she was given the office of the prophet, she did not neglect her role as a wife, mother and prophetess; such offered much encouragement to my classmate because the prophetess is not above the rest of God’s people. I also think Pastor Staphane did a good job in outlining the social-political and socio-economical period during the time of sister White’s ministry. Furthermore, I suspect my colleague is very appreciative for all the discussions and questions which have been raised in class because they seemed to force him to think out loud and out of the box for firmer bible truth. Another observation that I make is that my colleague seems to have had some unsettled concerns about the topics we have been discussed, however, as a result of our class discussion, he seems to have a clearer views of things in regards to the prophetic ministry and life of E.G White. Also, I think my colleague found new approaches on how to teach others about the prophetess and her works without doing injustice to the bible and the church. However, having said that, I would recommend that in future discourse my colleague be a little bit more selective because I think one would do a greater job when not dealing with multiples issues and/or topics. All in all, my friend did a fabulous job in summarizing his ideas and views with respect to the issue at hands.
I am commenting on what Allen shared. I appreciate that Allen poured out his heart and raised many questions with his inquisitive mind. I liked the first part of his reflection paper; he summarized well what he understood from this class thus far, and it has enriched my understanding. I do have one observation to make: I think I understand what Allen is saying in the second part of his paper; however, it appears to me, even though he raised great questions, that it muddied the first part of his paper. What I mean by muddied is that there seems to be a kind of circular reasoning going which appears to depart from the principle of spirit of prophecy being brought out by both Dr. Hanna and Herbert Douglass. Perhaps some clarification is needed, as he seems to imply that everyone is equally inspired and the only difference is the size of the audience to whom the message is imparted. If this is what he means, I have a problem with that concept. Saying that we are all equally inspired for different sizes of audiences by the same Holy Spirit is problematic; there are different levels of inspiration. For example, Paul’s words to the Corinthians were inspired to a greater degree than were those of the saints of Corinth to whom he wrote and spoke.
Response to Allen Decena's Post Entitled "Greater light versus greater light"
Allen brings up an interesting point about which light is greater, especially since both the Bible (including Abraham, Elisha, Moses, & Paul) and Ellen White are inspired by the same Holy Spirit. Ellen White says that she is the lesser light pointing to the greater light. I think it's important to remember that when Ellen White wrote this, she never thought of elevating herself nor her writings to the same level as the Bible, though she was inspired by the same Holy Spirit. I liken her to John the Baptist who went before and paved the way for Jesus. John, we could say, was a lesser light, who prepared the people's hearts and then pointed them to the greater light - Jesus Christ. Jesus is always the greater light! Sometimes there might be confusion as to whether it is Jesus or the Bible that is the greater light, but the account that we have of Jesus is in the Bible! So I believe reference to the Bible in this respect seems to be synonymous with reference to Jesus. I would consider Abraham, Elisha, Moses, & Paul all lesser lights pointing to the greater light - Jesus. Of course, God is the greatest light of all!
You have a point regarding the off-shoot groups. Basically it comes down to that humility you were speaking about. If we aren't careful then it becomes easy to count all that do not agree with us as finally and ultimately lost.
But as you implied, we should be cautious. It seems that we as humans are like camera's. We can only see a snap-shot of someones life at any given moment. That is all we have to go by. Only over the course of time can one see the overall trend of anothers life. But, with most people we meet on a day to day basis, or an off-shoot group, we don't usually have the luxury of being able to instantly know their history. We just get a snap-shot of where they are at that moment. We just simply cannot see that far. So, it is true that we cannot ultimately tell if someone is going to finally be lost when it is all over and done.
However, it seems that this word of caution should be tempered in some way because we do have a clear thus saith the Lord in Isaiah 8:20 "To the law and to the testimony if they speak not according to this word it is because there is NO light in them."
It seems that the word of God allows for clear and objective tests by which to determine the fruits of somone's life. If they do not speak according to the law or the testimony, they don't have light. So, this is helpful. Because it tells us "do not put stock in those who don't have light." But, this text does not say that those who may be without light "today" will necessarily be without light "tomorrow." This is where the caution is needed. For tomorrow those very people could repent of their sins and turn. Thus the one who is an apostate today could be a repentant and humble servant tomorrow if the grace of God grabs hold of them.
Basically what I am saying is this: I agree with you that we should be cautious relegating people to final damnation when they apostatize today because we don't ultimately know if they will turn before its too late. However, that does not nullify the Christian's need to be able to test and try the spirits "currently."
Response to Andy Hunte's "Traumatic Experiences and Thorns in the Flesh"
Your posting was a blessing to me. In addition to a well written "paper" (straightforward with logical transitions) I appreciated your insights. We are in agreement that although we don't understand why bad things happen to us, God can use them to draw us closer to Him. It reminded me of my personal "thorn in the flesh." On many occasions, I have plead with God to take asthma from me. A few years ago, God used this thorn to remind me that every breath comes from Him. Looking back, without this physical ailment, I may have not realized my dependence on God for life. As the song says, "We are weak but He is strong!" I valued your discussion regarding how God can use us, despite the lack of formal education. If God can use a physically-weak-grammar-school-educated teenager, to present His message, then there is hope for us! "For consider your calling, brethren, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble; but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong." 1 Corinthians 1:26-27
I really resonated with the comments that James W. Dieujuste wrote regarding Ellen White’s dealing discouragement, hardships and a whole host of other issues. Here was a messenger from God whom we have put on a pedestal thinking that she was out of touch with the issues we too deal with. But in reality, she had the same issues of discouragement, loneliness, conflict with church hierarchy that we as ministers have dealt with and will have to deal with. How comforting that to know that the words of encouragement and advice she gave are not just ones coming from a person who had never experienced any of the trials that ministers go through, but one who had to deal with similar issues and even larger issues that many if not most of us will never have to endure.
I also appreciated the link that James did to Jesus and how He too had to endure many trials and through it all remained faithful at all times to His Father. What a challenge for us as ministers to follow, not just simply Ellen White’s example, but the example that Ellen White followed and that was Jesus. Challenges in ministry will happen, but our job is to remain faithful and hang on to Jesus like those who went before us.
Olilla, Man are you sure you’re not a Jesuit! Just kidding! I love the idea of taking our knowledge straight to other churches. Let’s share the truth that we have where they are. But let’s take it a little further. Why do we have to require new believers to take the label of SDA? Why can’t they believe the three angels’ message, keep the commandments of God and stay in whatever their denomination is? We could simply encourage them to transform their home church into a church of God from the inside out? We seem to have taken the call to come out of Babylon as only applying to people leaving the Catholic Church or her protestant daughters and then entering into the SDA Church. Is it possible that come out of Babylon is bigger than that traditional understanding? Is it possible that Babylon represents error and the true church represents—The Truth? If so then could we preach the gospel to Lutherans (I’m just picking on them) and advise them to stay in their church so that they can share the truth with their members until the other Lutheran’s kick them out and straight out reject The Truth? (I’m using Truth as short hand for the 3 angels’ message, 10 Commandments, the gospel and the testimony of Jesus Christ—the SDA message.) Just some thoughts for discussion…
Chad Washburn, I really related to Washburn’s comments about speaking. I love preaching or any opportunity to share insights about Jesus. Often times before and after a sermon, I worry if I will or have shared the message well. Just seeing how the Holy Spirit worked with EG White so thousands of people could hear, understand and enjoy the message of the gospel from her is impressive. Further, how the Holy Spirit guided her in her studies of self improvement gives all of us great hope.
Response to Shelley LeBlanc – “As others knew her” By James Dieujuste
My comment is in response to Shelley Leblanc’s posting. I truly enjoyed reading what you wrote. I like how you integrated your personal experience into your comment. We really ought to think about the legacy that we will leave behind if/when we pass away. I don’t believe that Ellen G. White knew ahead of time that her most private writings would one day be exposed before the entire world. Hence, we need to live life constantly reflecting God’s image even when we are away from the public’s eye. We need to be faithful both in our private and public lives. Even though we may not be called to hold the office of prophet, we are, however, called to faithfully convey a Christ-centered message in the area our calling and ministry. I also liked the connection that you made in regards to John the Baptist. I agree that we, like John the Baptist, need to “decrease and faithfully exalt Christ.” Thanks for reminding us of that.
I appreciate the applications that Eric derived from the lectures and readings. I sensed in his comments his burden for evangelism. To bring others to a deeper knowledge of Our Lord and Saviour. I always appreciate those that are looking and thinking about new ways to reach out. Since I was one who was plucked like a brand plucked from the fire, I am always encouraged to hear the voice of those who will be bold for the Lord. Praise the Lord!! In terms of the delicate issue of how to keep that light burning in our hearts and to not lose our unique identity as Israel did- I think that the only way is to remember the way that we were led in the past. We still have much too learn that is too quickly and easily being forgotten. One of the surest ways to be successful in evangelism and "infiltration" is to use what we already have as a guide. I think that Eric highlighted the first most important principle that is so simple, yet we ignore or resist it- The principle can be summed up in one simple word... "GO!" Evangelism (p.54.1) -Christ "went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom and healing all manners of sickness." He preached in the synagogues because thus He could reach the many who gathered there. Then He went our and taught by the seaside and in the great thoroughfares of travel. The precious truths that He proclaimed were not confined to synagogues..."
My prayer is that we will continue to be light bearers to this lost and dying world. I appreciate the emphasis of this class and hope that all our information and dialogue will help the fire's in our hearts to burn brighter.
I too was greatly impressed with how our textbook outlined the conversion of Ellen White- How she was led to repentance and conversion by beholding the love of the Savior. It is impressive that Ellen White’s first vision had to do with a correct picture of God and as Douglas writes, “For the next 75 years, her most compelling mission was to tell the truth about the character of God.”
It is equally interesting to me the chapters that point out Ellen White’s experience as a wife and mother. She is real and we can relate to her. She is an example to us of how we can have an intimate connection with Christ through all of our trials.
It is a heartbreaking experience to loose any family member to death, and here is a mother who lost two of her children and her husband and still maintained her faith on the Lord. She kept her hand on the “green chord of faith” even in her darkest hours. God surely must have been her best friend and I am so thankful that he can be our best friend too!! May we all have “the beauty and simplicity of trusting in God” dawn on our souls. Amen!
This is in response to Stephane's comments of which I am grateful for his time and effort. Here is my clarification: first off, the 'equally inspired' comment means that the message given to any given person by the Holy Spirit is fully inspired: not partially inspired, not half inspired or sprinkling of inspiration, but a full on inspiration by the Holy Spirit. Furthermore, I refute Stephane's concept of inspiration levels in two ways: first, the MODE of inspiration (i.e. dreams, visions, word dictation, or thought inspiration) may be clearer in its delivery from one mode to another but that does diminish the fullness of the inspiration by the Holy Spirit. Could it be that humans 'taint' the message with different or heretical thoughts? Absolutely, but that doesn't mean that inspiration given by the Holy Spirit is any less, it just means that the messenger messed up the message. Secondly, the example that Stephane gave of Paul's words being more inspired (which implies dictatory inspiration - which many would argue that it is thought inspiration - but...meh) I would not only argue that the Corinthian 'saints' had messages that were mainly relevant to JUST the Corinthian church whereas Paul's letters (already viewed by Peter as Scripture) were relevant to a broader audience (i.e. the Christian church as a whole), but that early Christian 'fathers' whose writing were NOT included in the Canon was that it was concluded (if I am not mistaken) that such writings were NOT inspired. Is there truth in their messages? Probably. But that doesn't mean that the particular message was inspired by the Holy Spirit and it certainly doesn't mean that these messages were partially inspired as Stephane seems to suggest. (disclaimer - if EGW says they are then I will humbly and gratefully stand corrected ;) In addition, hindsight being what it is, I should probably not have included the comment about Elisha having a double portion of the spirit, yet I still stand behind my comments in that the messages given by Elisha is no more inspired than was Paul's, but that Elisha had greater access to the Holy Spirit and therefore a greater possibility of MORE fully inspired messages BY the Holy Spirit. (but I can see where that is confusing) On another side note, I have no idea what my last sentence (in my posting) is trying to say - it really looks and sounds like gibberish, but it made perfect sense at the time. What does this all mean? It means that unless I want to spend another hour and a half writing a defense of my positions, I should try to be a little bit more clearer in my words.
Response to Clifford Lim’s post of 7/13/08 Cliff, as I neared the end of your post, your last sentence touched me. You said (in reference to Ellen White’s constant pursuit of a close relationship with God), “What a challenge for me today, who has not had God talk to me, like she had, to pursue a relationship with God as she did.” How right you are! She actually talked with Him in vision, saw and visited with actual angels, walked in vision through Heaven, and yet she never stopped trying to get closer to Him. Perhaps the reason she did this was because the more she saw Him for who He truly is, the more she wanted to see more. I think that it is too often, today, that we “dumb-down” Jesus. In our attempt to relate to Him we over-humanize Him and (in a way) we treat Him as the Greeks did to their gods. We make Him into our own image and from that image we try to relate to Him. Ellen uplifted His divinity, authority, kingship, and absolute mastery of everything that exists. In this she saw Him in His greatness and that put in bold relief (when she then saw how He was constantly trying to reach us) His compassion. Your post challenged me to stop humanizing Jesus for purposes of “helping” Him to be relevant to sinful Mankind, and to begin to uplift His supremacy. I now feel that it is through these efforts that what He did (His condescending to help us in the way He did) will be put in sharper focus and draw myself and others to Him. “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.” (John 12:32).
Response to Allen Decena’s post on “The Loneliness of Mrs. White.”
Allen, I can relate to your post and appreciated you having the courage to address the issue of loneliness. I too have experienced this struggle in my ministry as a Chaplain and have heard how damaging it can be and has been in the lives of other pastors. It seems so funny to think that a person with such an important role in guiding, teaching, admonishing, and counseling others would be neglected in those areas themselves and be lacking strong personal friendships. It was strengthening to hear uplifting words from Ellen White and not only that but also that she struggled with loneliness and overcame. As a seminary student I am enjoying the relationships I am building here and am being blessed immensely by them. I can only hope that the relationships formed here will carry on into our various forms of ministry and form somewhat of a relief/support network for each other. If we can stay connected with our friends and fellow pastors and rely on one another during difficult times our ministries should flourish and never feel the emptiness that loneliness brings. Thanks again my friend. Blessings, -MR
In response to James Dieujuste “A light unto our path” post. James I completely agree with your post. As a church we need to stay humble and have a teachable spirit in order to continue to grow in grace and truth. Psalms 36:9 says: “For with thee is the fountain of life: in thy light shall we see light.”
So therefore we must continue to stay in this light in order to continue to see more and more light. The only way that we are going to do this is to stay in prayer and Bible Study. Can you imagine the light that God would give us if we were to spend as much time studying and praying as the pioneers did back then? Can you imagine the Bible truths that would be revealed to us? But the same illumination that was available to the pioneers is available to us today, but like you said we must remain teachable. Good post!
This response is to Chad’s second reflection paper.
I am impressed with his lucid and trenchant insight. I really enjoyed the first part where he raised an important question regarding “when illumination of the Word of God is drastically conflicting with the indispensable truths found in God’s Word. In Christianity we have so many denominations and everyone claims that the Holy Spirit has revealed to them what they hold as doctrine truth. Why are there contradictions when the same Spirit illuminates the word of God to all people?” I have to say that what Chad wrote in expressing his view in understanding illumination is also my query. I also concur with the reason that Chad gave, and I would like to bolster Chad’s reflection by saying that most people have an agenda in how to interpret the Scripture that interferes with what God wants really for His people. This is perhaps why God from time to time needs to raise a prophet to enlighten His people on the missing marks and in other areas. Another thought, along with what Chad said in the second part of his paper, is that as people we think that we know almost everything and thus we do not need the help of the prophet’s view. When we throw out his/her light, we as a people are also heading for the rocks. Thus, the Testimonies are vital for a living church. Illumination is good to a certain degree, but it is not enough. The Church also needs the Testimonies; otherwise we see the same scenario being repeated as in Judges—they did what was right in their own eyes. Thanks for your thoughts, Chad.
Response to Bill Watson-Payne's post on "A Modern Day Prophet"
Like we have been saying (at least us students who have not taken a formal class on EGW), there is a very real human side to Mrs. White that we, at least I, was not exposed to growing up in an Adventist home/church. We're pretty much relegated to the ethereal prophecies that she has brought to our denomination and iconic pedestal that our denominational has placed her on lends to a feeling of discontinuity between us (the lowly, struggling-in-our-Christian-walk members) and THE "prophet" - the bright shinning light of the remnant church. Yet, through this book (I guess not really discussed that much in class though) is the other side of her: the wife (fairly loving - although images of Puritan comportment as far as wife/husband relationships go still is conjured up in my mind); mother; mentor to younger women (the red dress story was absolutely enlightening); the human side to the icon. One comment in particular in your post struck me was that although there were these two sides to Mrs. White and it seems (at least that's the impression I get) that she tried very hard to keep them separate, there were times where these two sides of her life, the human and the icon, clashed. The point where she tried to overcompensate her time with her children is a by-product of her 'office' tasks and role, I don't know if there was anyway that she could have avoided it. And I can't help but think that even we, as pastors, have trouble not letting our families be affected by our tasks and roles, how much more problematic would it have been for the Whites in which both parents were HEAVILY involved in ministry. At times we have this inclination to do as much as we can for the cause of Christ and yet there are times when we are faced with the choice of paying a heavy price (the health of our families) in pursuit of that inclination. I can only console myself, in the midst of horror stories of rebellious and degenerate PK's and dysfunctional pastoral families, that God will help us balance our 'office' life and family life and cling to the hope and promise that all things work for good for them that love the Lord.
This is in response to Scottie Baker's post: Strength of Frailty
I too am amazed at the amount accomplished by one so 'frail'. And I think you raise an interesting question 'do we need to be at our worst constantly to have the perfect support and strength from God', and I would agree with you that it should absolutely not be the case. In fact I believe that God wants us to always try our best to also bring light to the weaknesses and short comings that we humans are plagued with ever since the fall if for no other reason that for God to get all the glory when things that get accomplished, by all logical reasoning, should not be accomplished. Isn't that why God chose the Israelite nation (to a certain degree)? Isn't that why he choose people of humility and noticeable frailty like EGW and Paul and Moses and Luther and Peter and....so that we cannot say that it was by our might or power but by God's Spirit? I see this dynamic as part and parcel of the method in which God uses to draw people close to Him and I think EGW played her part perfectly.
Response to Tammie Lindsey’s post entitled “Rebuking, Repenting, Baptism and the Remnant”
In this post, Tammie asked a lot of questions! Questions, I’m sure, which lingers in many other people’s minds as well. I will respond to her question on baptism: “Is baptism required to enter heaven?” It is true, in class we said no. And specifically pertaining to either water baptism or Holy Spirit baptism, I still say neither are necessary to enter heaven. Romans 10:9-10 says “if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.”
This passage reminds me of the thief on the cross. After witnessing the activities surrounding Jesus’ crucifixion, he really had a change of heart! He was converted in that moment. His conversion led him to confess that truly Jesus was the son of God. He believed and had a repentant heart! And Jesus assured him that he would be saved in the heavenly kingdom.
I find this to be a exemplary story because it answers the question of the necessity of water baptism. The thief was not afforded the opportunity to get water-baptized after he took his stand for Jesus. I would also add that he also did not get the opportunity to become Holy-Spirit baptized after he took his stand for Jesus! This now leads us to question what “Holy-Spirit baptism” really entails; and I may be wrong here, but if the thief was not Holy-Spirit baptized either, then this means that neither water nor Holy-Spirit baptism is necessary for entry into heaven.
Baptism is an outward symbol of an inward change. This symbol tells others that a change has happened on the inside. However, the change could still happen even if the symbol is not present to show it. I believe God is ultimately concerned with the actual change of heart that takes place more than the outward symbols.
My comment is in response to Scottie Baker’s posting. I really like the insights that you brought forth in your posting. It is true that we need to acknowledge our weakness in comparison to God’s awesome strength. When we believe that we have the capacity to do things on our own, we put ourselves in a position where God can decide to show us how weak we really are. God wants us to remember that the things we are able to accomplish are not done by our power or by our might but that they are done by His Spirit (Zechariah 4:6). When we lower ourselves and acknowledge our weakness, God seizes the opportunity to lift us up. We also need to remember to glorify God when He takes us out of our weakness and lifts us up to a high place. Thanks Scottie for your comment on this subject matter.
Response to Clifford Lim’s post regarding Section III.
I appreciated the selections that you presented in your post regarding Ellen White’s humility. This section further helped me gain an appreciation of this misunderstood messenger as well. There are hundreds, perhaps thousands, who continue to view her as a smug old lady eager to shake a gnarled finger at the evildoer. Douglass shatters this image. I wish those who use her writings to beat others into submission to their viewpoint, could read this book and especially Chapter 15. How could one cling to that hypercritical view when they read her words, “It caused me great distress to see others troubled or grieved.” She would deliver a softened message and then go by herself and weep in agony of spirit. The weight of her responsibility and weaknesses were ever before her. However, God uses humble people to do His greatest work. God uses moldable clay.
When asked what she wanted to be when she grew up, I’m certain Ellen White didn’t answer, “A Prophet!” God can work great wonders through those who aren’t thrilled with their call. Moses was called to deliver God’s message to Pharaoh as he stood before the divine manifestation of a burning bush. He argued, “You’ve got the wrong man. I don’t have skills.” False humility? I think not. Ellen White wrote of this prophet, “He [Moses] pleaded as an excuse a lack of ready speech. He had been the general of armies of Egypt, and he certainly knew how to speak. But he was afraid that he would bring self into his work (MS 11,1903).” Ellen White’s life and ministry illustrates what it means to be selfless.
Thank you the thought-provoking post. Continue to let God use you to bless others.
I totally agree with Mike about the need of having a balance theology. It seems that our church is a magnet for unbalance people. Every church I’ve been to has someone who is unbalance in their theology. Salvation must be looked at holistically and we should weigh everything in the balances. Why can’t we have all the good facets of salvation put together? They really need to be put together in order to have a right understanding how one is saved. Why do people so often lean towards one side? Well I truly believe it has to do with people’s personalities, and what they experience in life. Some people are just bent towards legalism, it’s in their blood and others are on the other side bent towards extreme liberalism. Balance theology does take a lot of work and effort and I think as pastors we have an up hill battle ahead of us and it’s not going to be easy. A Response to Mike’s discussion regarding EGW’s writings being used as weapon to set a standard for the Church. I have experienced being whipped with EGW quotes, but some of what people quoted really made sense to me. However I have also been hurt, not by EGW, I have nothing against her, but those people who quote her to get what they want, that is control and power over someone weaker. I don’t think we need to be afraid have having a standard? I wouldn’t be here today if it wasn’t for EGW quotes and the Bible. I do believe you can quote her wrong, maybe saying it out of context or in a condemning voice, but lets not be afraid of reproof, it’s good for the soul, it is what makes us grow more like Christ. Yes, some things EGW says hurts, they stretch us, because they show us where we have gone off track. Hey if we don’t like reproof we better not read the Bible either. I think where our church has gone wrong, as Mike has said we aren’t balance. We need to focus on both EGW’s admonition alongside with the love and grace of God she presents so often in her writings.
Tammie’s comment regarding the remnant sparked my interest. I took a class in the Theology of the Church while doing some M.Div classes at La Sierra and the one thing I remember from the class was that the church is ultimately a “Remnant making people”, one that points people to the direction that God wants. I think as SDA’s we have often missed this point and so focused on people joining the SDA church that we forget to teach them how to win other souls to Christ. Consequently we have oftentimes been misunderstood and presented the message of the SDA church in a way that people think they are joining an exclusive club. (While it is, memberships is open to all and free to all who accept) I strongly believe that the SDA church does hold a special place in Salvation History and we need to continue this movement to win others to Christ. However, I think as a movement in order to make this church truly a “remnant making people” we as a church need to rethink how we do discipleship. I say this, knowing that in my own ministry I find this a weak point, however I think this is indeed a challenge for all of us ministers to remember that we are part of a remnant movement and in order for that movement to continue, we must disciple our followers (members and friends) to play an active part in this role of making others part of this remnant.
This is in response to Patricia Mccue�s �Threads of Gold.�
By Bill Watson-Payne
Thank you for writing from your heart and sharing what the Holy Spirit is doing in your life right now. I too am encouraged by the path of our pioneers. They experienced great pain and hardship to move the good news of Jesus from town to town. It is evident that suffering is a part of the Christian experience. Some do suffer more than others, while it is not a sign of more or less devotion to God, working for Him involves suffering. As we examine the life of the prophets of the O.T. we see their sufferings. Many suffered at the hands of outsiders but most at the hand of their own people. To have a ministry where there seems to be no success but you keep on going takes a lot of praying and courage. Paul lists many of his sufferings, but speak of triumph; �We are hard pressed on every side, yet not crushed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; 9 persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed.� 2 Cor. 4:8,9.nkjv. The life of Mrs. White was one of suffering; I supposed she could not have it better than other messengers of the Lord. Perhaps suffering teaches us all to depend on God more and not on our abilities. I believe that God allows sufferings because hopefully it keeps us on our knees, where in our weakness, He is strong. The threads of Gold do glitter, we have to take the time to appreciate them. Thanks Pat.
Response to Chad, really appreciated your comments on the different interpretations. It’s true, why are we all divided? I’m wondering if it’s because we are all trying to control the interpretation that others have, instead of allowing people to continue to search scripture and grow in faith and leave them to God to convince. Sure some will fall away, this is sin, selfishness and pride. Also, I’ve noticed that often we have need to hear the truth repeated several times over a period of time before we can actually learn it and accept it as truth. I mean look how long it takes to learn simple concepts like addition of single digit numbers. 2+2=4, always and it took an entire year in the first grade to get this. “Jesus paid it all” or a free vacation once a week can seem way more complicated to adults who are used to paying cash or using credit for everything and overworking.
Response to Andy's previous post, We see how God used EGW and did miraculous things in her life. I wonder if EG White had not wrote down her experiences and told people of them if she would have realized how mightily God was working in her life. Is it possible that God does these things for us but we don’t take note of them?
Response to Keenan Tyler's Paper: "Evangelism, Local and Global, and Race Relations: Chapter 19"
I really appreciate your point when you said, "As the world is constantly changing in this information age, we must continue to learn and to teach how to effectively evangelize." I resonate with this point. I've seen too many examples of evangelistic efforts conducted with no apparent thought to the needs and values of the listeners. You nailed the point when you emphasized doing evangelism the way Jesus did: meeting people where they are. Where Ellen White emphasized learning new languages in preparation for mission service, it might be time for us to emphasize "cultural exegesis" in preparation for evangelistic efforts. In this age of information overload, we have to guarantee that our message makes a practical, immediate difference in the lives of our listeners, otherwise they will tune us out with all of the other excess and irrelevant information.
Thank you for your post that emphasized these important issues once again.
Stephane, in your post “Third Reflection Paper” I was struck by the logic that I had missed in my reading of the same chapter. Thank you for bringing this out. Yes, Ellen G. White was a great communicator and she was a great theologian. Both of these she accomplished, not by attending school (which is the amazing part) but through Heavenly means. After all, before God asked her to be His messenger to His end-time people, she could not write or speak in public (thus, she was not a great communicator) and she, by her own admissions, did not understand much of the theological talk spoken by her fellow Adventists (and thus, she was not a great theologian). However, she was great at both, because God is great at both and He was using her. This is just one more “proof” of the Divine working in this little lady. She wrote about things that the most studied theologian, today, still struggles over. And she uses words that the only most advanced English doctor would use on a normal day. Yet, her words sink down into the depths of the least eloquent, unlearned individual over 100 years removed from the time she wrote them. I would say that she was not great in either, but by the fact that she was great in both proves that she was the instrument of God.
Response to Shelley Leblanc’s post: “Ellen White ate oysters and drank a pint of wine!”
Shelley! You crack me up! The way you approached your last post was great. You started with an incredibly robust statement and ended with a wonderful clarification. Your title definitely caught my attention and your writing style was very pleasant to read. Not only that, your post was very insightful and thought provoking. It definitely is interesting how Ellen White’s message was a call for believers to begin aligning their spirituality with their lifestyle’s as well as their eating habits. I appreciated how you clarified that even she did not implement all of the changes at once in her own life and also did not hold anything against “meat eaters.” The health message, as you pointed out, is becoming commonplace today outside of Adventism but back then I bet many of her ideas seemed very far fetched! However, even now God’s timing seems to once again be impeccable since we are living in a wildly obese world where healthy living can and will turn out to be life saving for many people. Isn’t it beautiful that our message from the beginning has been and continues to be one that promotes total health and spirituality?! I am definitely thankful for the changes God introduced through the teachings of Ellen White that have continued to be part of our church since early on. Thank you again for your insight and gentile candor.
This comment is on Scottie’s last reflection paper.
Thank you, Scottie, for reminding us of a picture, which we have perhaps lost, about miracles happening today and that God is still performing miracles in our own life. I was very intrigued by how you brought this concept of the health message and miracles together. This was the pith of your reflection. We think of miracles as always being big events; however, as you have demonstrated, in Ellen White’s life miracles were connected to the daily events that surrounded her. Because of her willingness to live the message presented to her and the miracle of her living longer, the result is beautiful books that many, including myself, can have the blessing to enjoy.
Perhaps our picture of miracles should be redefined with a new and fresh look at the Bible. We often look at biblical miracles, where people were healed or something extraordinary happened such as feeding five thousand with a tiny lunch. But what about the conversions of Peter, John and James; these are also a miracle. The fact that, in Acts, Barnabas went after Paul and took him under his wings was a great miracle, which, if it would not have been done, perhaps many books in the New Testament would not have been written. It has made me think to look at miracles in a different way. I believe Scottie has reflected well on how this was also applicable in the life and ministry of Ellen White.
In response to Eric Ollila post on section IV: Hey Eric I also find it interesting that Ellen White didn’t find anything wrong in receiving government aid for various projects, and then backs it up with the Bible by using the story found written in Nehemiah. This just goes to show you that we must have proper balance when it comes to things of this nature. I also agree that we must have a John the Baptist mentality when it comes to Adventism. We must stay humble and true to the light that God has richly blessed us with at the same time willing to move into more light when it is revealed to us. (Not meaning leave the church, just growing in wisdom.) Good post.
I appreciated your post on perseverance! That has been something that has stuck out to me as well. Things would get overwhelming for Ellen White but she would just stick with it and God would always come through for her.
We need more of that Spirit and God is more than willing to give it to us. We need the attitude that says "I will not fail nor be discouraged" no matter what happens. But this attitude is hard to have when one is confronted with personal weaknesses and sins, the devil has a sinister knack for rubbing them in your face right when everything else seems to be falling apart in your life.
What I like about Ellen White is that she was quick to rebound. She would make mistakes, but she was quick to take it to the Savior and she just kept on moving right along like nothing ever happened. Constantly pressing forward. This is something that I am striving for and want to master in my lifetime, being quick to rebound, even when I fall. Getting right back up and moving forward with Jesus.
I wholeheartedly agree with the statement presented in your post that students must think for themselves and not merely be a reflector of other’s thoughts. I appreciate that you demonstrate this belief by your comments in class and even in this posting - you agreed and disagree with Douglass.
The Lord through the prophet Isaiah urges us to come and reason together. Ellen White encourages the use of common sense. Jesus, during His earthly ministry, prompted people to think for themselves. The Master Teacher would answer questions with questions and taught using parables. We can still hear Jesus asking His disciples today, “Ok. Now that you’ve told me who everybody says that I am…who do you say that I am?” (Matt 16:15, my paraphrased version)
As ministers and educators let us consider the counsel, “...If God's word were studied as it should be, men would have a breadth of mind, a nobility of character, and a stability of purpose, that is rarely seen in these times. Thousands of men who minister in the pulpit are lacking in essential qualities of mind and character, because they do not apply themselves to the study of the Scriptures. They are content with a superficial knowledge of the truths that are full of rich depths of meaning; and they prefer to go on, losing much in every way, rather than to search diligently for the hidden treasure.” {Christian Education 118.2}
I must admit that I was unenthusiastic when I first learned about the course requirement of posting “thoughts” for other classmates to review. I was prepared to sit and absorb the professor’s knowledge through lecture. What a surprise! During these three weeks, I have been richly blessed, especially by posts like this one. Thank you Stephane. Thank you Dr. Hanna.
Response to Scottie Baker I would have to agree with Scottie regarding EGW visions having miraculous events attached to them to help the skeptics believe. I have read “Life Sketches” which is a biography of Ellen White’s life and when I read it, it sounds like the days of Pentecost in acts happening all over again. Throughout the Bible God uses signs and wonders, eg. 1st God showing signs and wonders to Pharaoh and His people. Did those signs and wonders help Pharaoh believe, or how about even God’s people who not only witness the miracles of Egypt but all the miracles performed for them in the wilderness and the land of Canaan? Even God’s people never fully trusted Him after all those signs. There are some exceptions like king Nebuchadnezzar in Daniel 4:2-4 who believed in the God of Heaven because of the signs and wonders. However, we cannot forget that Nebuchadnezzar later on turned his back on God and God made Him into a mad man. It seems signs and wonders don’t really work with fallen man. When Jesus was confronted by Pharisees and Sadducees in Matthew 16:1-4, they were seeking a sign from Him. However the reality the signs of the times were all around them but they couldn’t discern them. Jesus calls them out in v. 4 “A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign shall be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.’ And He left them and departed.” Even when Jesus rose from the grave, the “the sign of the prophet Jonah,” they still didn’t believe. I think signs are wonderful but they fail to put an end to disbelief or doubt for some. The thing that makes me slow to believe signs and wonders is Paul’s warning in 2 Thessalonians 2:9-11 “The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,” Satan is a live in well, and he will be doing signs and wonders in the Christian church, and even in our own church. I think it is wise not to believe anything until time shows that it is of God. We must test everything “to the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them” (Isaiah 8:20). Even if the miracle glorified God, I would still be careful in accepting that miracle as a verification of someone validity of God is working through them. Also if someone claims to be a prophet we must put them to the test: 1st Matt. 7:20 by their fruit, 2nd by 1 John. 4:3 is their message Christ center, 3rd Deut. 2:22 fulfillment of prophecy. Ellen White I think has proven her prophetic gift not by the miraculous signs that surrounded it, but by the test of time; seeing the fruit (God’s blessing on what she touched), fulfillment of what she said and her ministry standing up to the test of scripture.
Joe Thelusca Reflection to Chad Washburn’s paper (7/21)
First and foremost, I want to take this opportunity to commend Chad for his thoughtful reflection which as result helps to consider the seriousness of illumination and the writings of E.G White. I agree completely with my colleague for his understanding concerning the role of the Holy Spirit in the process of illumination. It is an unequivocal fact that the Holy Spirit cannot and will never provides God’s children with mixed message and contradictory truths. In fact, Jesus himself told the disciple before he went to heaven that he will send the comforter, and he will lead us in all truth. That’s being said, it is a tragedy to see how Christians from different denominations just claim illumination from the Holy Spirit in their quest to understand scriptures even though they already have a preconceived notion of what they are want to hear and know from the bible texts. Again, the both inspiration and illumination are the work of the Holy Spirit and it must be made clear that there is no error, contractions or misguidance from the spirit of prophecy in neither of this area. In regards to the necessity to go back to the word of God and the reading of the writings of Sister White, I full concur with that conception because we are in danger of loosing our true identity as sentinels who have been entrusted with a specific message for a world in darkness due to a lack of biblical knowledge and the spirit of prophecy from our parts. We as ministers who have been called for such a time as this need to be bold and courageous as we ought to take a strong stand for Jesus by admonishing our parishioners to go back to some of the primitive ways of serving the Lord by getting motivated and excited to study the words of God, the spirit of prophecy and to witness for Jesus in our world. Again, I thank you for this awesome much needed reminder.
This is in response to Eric Ollila's post on Section IV specifically concerning religious liberty. I don't know why but I'm not so interested in religious liberty hiding behind the excuse that God is in control 'setting up and tearing down kingdoms'. I still have this notion that I cannot effect much change in the bigger picture nor do I wish to. Having said that, I have not come into direct opposition to something that directly threatens my religious liberty. The closest I've come to that situation was going to a secular university and I was behind the proverbial 8 ball because I didn't study on Sabbath. In those situations (perhaps it was my pacifist personality) I just didn't fight it and took the loss. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that it isn't important, but that it is just not an interest for me (this is my post-modern/political correct side of me speaking out). But we'll see what happens when I'm directly confronted with a threat to my religious freedom.
Joe Thelusca Reflection to Keenan Tyler’s paper (7/28)
I think Keenan did a great job in calling our attention to the significance of E.G. White’s health message in light of the neglects that many of us often demonstrated in the area of health ministry. Even though, Sister White was not the first one to know about health issues, she definitely is the key figure in this subject because she was specified inspired to write many volumes of which “Ministry of Healing is my favorite. I think the problem is that many of our leaders and pastors don’t seem to promote her health message or at least not concentrating on educating their members about this pertinent health lessons. In any case, I agree with my colleague in that our members must be mindful that they don’t send mixed signals to the world in the way they choose to practice the various health reform recommendations. At the same time, we ought to develop practical strategies on how to best promote Sister White’s health message to both unbelievers and our church members. I would like to suggest that this task should not be taken lightly because we don’t want to give the wrong impression about our faith and the prophetess as we strive to achieve a great deed. All in all, my colleague did a fine job in outlining the needs to be authentic in regards to the applications of Sister White’s health message. In closing, I would to say that we should try to use her advisers as much as we can especially as a vehicle to attract those who might have health problems or who just want to learn more on health and living healthy. Finally, it is crucial for us to emphasize the connection between health and spirituality by following her guidelines and teaching, so that we don’t misrepresent her good intention.
Comment on shelley leblanc's post... Ellen White ate oysters and drank a pint of wine! In this comment by Shelly, I appreciated her highlighting the point that while Ellen White was illuminated on Health Reform, she was revealed the principles step by step. Also Jesus comment to His disciples, when he said, “I have many things to tell you, but I cannot reveal this to you all at once.” What a principle to follow when introducing people to Jesus, too often as Adventists we have found ourselves converting people into the church and when they get there, they are shocked at the little nuances that go into the Adventist lifestyle. As I think about the change that people have to go through when becoming an Adventist, we have a lot of work to do in the area of learning to be sensitive to this transitional stage of their conversion experience and find better ways to mentor them through the stages. Too often we have tried to cram the Adventist lifestyle down their throat in one Bible study and when they experience it, they are scared half to death and run out of the church. One of the major things we as a church and I believe as a Seminary must work towards is to teach Pastors and our members how to make disciples of people. This includes a very important part, the mentoring stage. This is tough because it takes commitment to be a good mentor and friend, changes can’t happen overnight. It may take years of work to help people accept the things that we hold dear to the Adventist lifestyle. However as challenging as it may be, I think if we commit ourselves to doing that work, we will find ourselves better Adventists as well as find that our retention rate is far higher, because we have not force fed the new converts, we have shepherded them through the process and built a relationship with them as well as grown ourselves because we have been mentoring them. I think this is a challenge that must be undertaken now especially in this relationship based society.
Response to Andy Hunte’s post of 7/30/08 Andy, I think I am learning the same lesson. Thank you for presenting it like you did. IF our evangelistic campaigns were reaping series instead of sowing/harvesting meetings, perhaps things would be a bit different. I know from experience that we set things up to be reaping but in the end people are really introduced to a lot of new concepts at the meetings and it may be a little too much too quick.
How about our ministries in the churches as well? God is very patient with us. We have a lifetime to get things straight in our minds and still we have a very long way to go when it ends. I do believe that too much emphasis is placed on numbers and not enough on the work is actually that of the Holy Spirit. We don’t reap at all, He does. And really, are people fruit to be picked? Shouldn’t we rephrase and rethink the process? I know big meetings to pull people together. I know that big meetings do reach a lot of people because of the spectacle. So maybe we don’t have to get rid of them, just rethink what we are doing with them.
God is patient and we, as His representatives, should be too.
My comment is in response to Keenan Tyler’s posting. I appreciate the level of forthrightness and frankness that came across in your blog. You are right on target! It is true that Ellen White was far ahead of her time in the type of health counsels that she gave. The medical community can learn a tremendous amount from her just by reading her books. I also agree that we shouldn’t just applaud her counsels but take the extra step of actually following her recommendations. You made a good observation in noting that we need to be mindful not to comfort ourselves into thinking that we are fine as vegetarians even if practice unhealthy habits in other areas. There are other factors aside from vegetarianism that affect our well-being. We do need to live a balanced lifestyle. Thanks for your wise counsel on this topic.
Response to Joe Thelusca: The Role of the Inspired Messenger
Great work summarizing the role of Ellen White as the messenger of God. You particularly got me thinking once again as I read your reflection on inspiration. I always find it shocking, even awe-inspiring, to think that the thoughts and messages of God can be impressed upon the prophet, as you suggest. How can the infinite communicate through the finite? Yet He did...and He does. In my estimation, this in itself is one of the greatest miracles on our planet. Thanks for drawing my attention back to it.
In response to Allen’s post entitled “Answer to all my questionings” & “one of the last strongholds,” I am also a believer in our Adventist health message. Through the visions God gave to Ellen White, we as a people are poised to be wiser when it comes to healthy living. I say “poised to be wiser” because both the knowledge and opportunity are present and available, but oftentimes I believe we still miss the mark in our practice. What I mean by that is this: we have promoted vegetarianism by substituting a meat diet with tofu or soya and in return increased the sodium content for preservation purposes. As a result, the high sodium content now becomes the main ingredient doing harm to our bodies instead of the meat. We have advanced in one area while sacrificing in another, but both are equally needed. The “vege” in the word vegetarian refers to vegetables, which I believe should be the main staple of vegetarianism. All the other psudo meats, because of how they are preserved, still fall short of God’s ideal for our diet.
I appreciate your comments about character development. I echo your sentiment that this needs to be a bigger part of our Advent message for this time. where I grew up, and will be going to work as a pastor in a year, there has been a significant focus on the grace of God, without even a suggestion that character development is a part of a relationship with God. As a result, we have a generation of people growing up without even realizing that the Bible should inform their decisions in life. You are absolutely right: until more people get back to the basics of personal spirituality, it will be difficult for God to use us as a people.
This is in response to Tammie’s comment on the issue of her uncertainty as to whether those who have left the SDA Church are lost or is this the last true church. I believe that this church was prophesied into being. The SDA church is in existence for such a time as this. But we could not say beyond the shadow of a doubt that this church is the only receptor of Truth. We are only 15 million people world-wide perhaps @ 24 million when we count those who are attending Sabbath School around the world. But there are @6 billion people on earth. I know that in comparing Noah and the flood, we are at a similar situation where only 8 out of the millions who were on earth But I believe that God has to have a mechanism for saving others who have not heard of the Seventh-day Adventist church.
Remember that the church is local and it is also universal. The universal part is a bit un-textualized for us. We do not have a clear definition of what the universal church looks like, so everything outside of our understanding seems wrong. We have the privilege of embracing this beautiful message that the SDA Church teaches but we cannot believe that we are the only ones teaching truth. For us to reach the rest of the world and get everyone into the SDA church, we would all have to be like the Mark Finley’s and C.D. Brooks to get this accomplished and even they had their weaknesses. This is a God thing. I believe this is the true church, and I have dedicated my life to inviting people to its fellowship as the Body of Christ but I do not believe that you have to be a part of the SDA church in order to be saved.
47 comments:
Response to Scottie Baker:
This comment is in response to Scottie Baker’s posting. I really enjoyed the way you expanded on our thoughts from class. It was great seeing your mind at work and going further with your understanding. Your additional scripture passages were helpful to me because you presented them in a clear and distinct way that progressed smoothly and really added emphasis to your point of the testimonies being seen metaphorically as “Light.” I agree with your statement on Ellen Whites writings being lesser to scripture due to the fact that she was not adding to them, rather casting light into darkness and allowing believers to be led back to scripture. Thank you for your careful and concise understanding and presentation, I appreciated it.
-MR
In response to Tammy post:
Tammy it seemed to startle you in referring to the Holy Spirit = E.G.W. This phrase also was foreign to me as well. I think that this choice of words can be seen as ambiguous to Adventist or non-Adventist. I like how Dr Hanna simply explained from the Bible that the testimony of God = Jesus and that the testimony of Jesus is the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of prophecy. Then he explained from the Bible that one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is the gift of prophecy of which sister White had. Using the Bible as my reference this is the way in which I will now explain Ellen White and the Spirit of Prophesy. I think that this is simple way in which any Adventist or non-Adventist could understand. Enjoyed your post!
Keenan
My response to Shelley Leblanc post:
I really liked how you brought personal application at the end of your paper. It’s kind of scary to think that when we die someone might go through our email, blogs, home video, and ask other people what they thought of us. I think Douglass does a good job of searching EGW past to see who she really was. However I think he’s a little basis just because he’s a SDA, I think it would be interesting to have someone look at EGW who’s not a Adventist. Maybe they would focus on other things that Douglass avoided. I know the books of heaven has a record of our whole life, there’s nothing hidden up there. I think it would be interesting to read what God recorded about our own life. I don’t think He’s basis, unless you’re covered by the blood of His Son. ☺
Joe Thelusca
Reaction to Stephane B’s paper
I would to begin my reflection on my colleague’ paper by saying that he did a great job in assessment the fundamental issues surrounding the life of E.G White and Herbert Douglass’s book. My colleague seems to make some pertinent discoveries about the person of E.G Whites as well as her prophetic roles and ministry. All these are important elements which would help us to better understand her writings and at the same time position us to provide more accurate explanation about her counsels to each other and our flocks. My colleague appears to find comfort and hope in the fact that sister White was not a supernatural human being, but rather a normal person who was inspired by the spirit of prophecy. In addition, even though she was given the office of the prophet, she did not neglect her role as a wife, mother and prophetess; such offered much encouragement to my classmate because the prophetess is not above the rest of God’s people.
I also think Pastor Staphane did a good job in outlining the social-political and socio-economical period during the time of sister White’s ministry. Furthermore, I suspect my colleague is very appreciative for all the discussions and questions which have been raised in class because they seemed to force him to think out loud and out of the box for firmer bible truth. Another observation that I make is that my colleague seems to have had some unsettled concerns about the topics we have been discussed, however, as a result of our class discussion, he seems to have a clearer views of things in regards to the prophetic ministry and life of E.G White. Also, I think my colleague found new approaches on how to teach others about the prophetess and her works without doing injustice to the bible and the church. However, having said that, I would recommend that in future discourse my colleague be a little bit more selective because I think one would do a greater job when not dealing with multiples issues and/or topics. All in all, my friend did a fabulous job in summarizing his ideas and views with respect to the issue at hands.
I am commenting on what Allen shared. I appreciate that Allen poured out his heart and raised many questions with his inquisitive mind. I liked the first part of his reflection paper; he summarized well what he understood from this class thus far, and it has enriched my understanding. I do have one observation to make: I think I understand what Allen is saying in the second part of his paper; however, it appears to me, even though he raised great questions, that it muddied the first part of his paper. What I mean by muddied is that there seems to be a kind of circular reasoning going which appears to depart from the principle of spirit of prophecy being brought out by both Dr. Hanna and Herbert Douglass. Perhaps some clarification is needed, as he seems to imply that everyone is equally inspired and the only difference is the size of the audience to whom the message is imparted. If this is what he means, I have a problem with that concept. Saying that we are all equally inspired for different sizes of audiences by the same Holy Spirit is problematic; there are different levels of inspiration. For example, Paul’s words to the Corinthians were inspired to a greater degree than were those of the saints of Corinth to whom he wrote and spoke.
Response to Allen Decena's Post Entitled "Greater light versus greater light"
Allen brings up an interesting point about which light is greater, especially since both the Bible (including Abraham, Elisha, Moses, & Paul) and Ellen White are inspired by the same Holy Spirit. Ellen White says that she is the lesser light pointing to the greater light. I think it's important to remember that when Ellen White wrote this, she never thought of elevating herself nor her writings to the same level as the Bible, though she was inspired by the same Holy Spirit. I liken her to John the Baptist who went before and paved the way for Jesus. John, we could say, was a lesser light, who prepared the people's hearts and then pointed them to the greater light - Jesus Christ. Jesus is always the greater light! Sometimes there might be confusion as to whether it is Jesus or the Bible that is the greater light, but the account that we have of Jesus is in the Bible! So I believe reference to the Bible in this respect seems to be synonymous with reference to Jesus. I would consider Abraham, Elisha, Moses, & Paul all lesser lights pointing to the greater light - Jesus. Of course, God is the greatest light of all!
Comment on Tammie's post
You have a point regarding the off-shoot groups. Basically it comes down to that humility you were speaking about. If we aren't careful then it becomes easy to count all that do not agree with us as finally and ultimately lost.
But as you implied, we should be cautious. It seems that we as humans are like camera's. We can only see a snap-shot of someones life at any given moment. That is all we have to go by. Only over the course of time can one see the overall trend of anothers life. But, with most people we meet on a day to day basis, or an off-shoot group, we don't usually have the luxury of being able to instantly know their history. We just get a snap-shot of where they are at that moment. We just simply cannot see that far. So, it is true that we cannot ultimately tell if someone is going to finally be lost when it is all over and done.
However, it seems that this word of caution should be tempered in some way because we do have a clear thus saith the Lord in Isaiah 8:20 "To the law and to the testimony if they speak not according to this word it is because there is NO light in them."
It seems that the word of God allows for clear and objective tests by which to determine the fruits of somone's life. If they do not speak according to the law or the testimony, they don't have light. So, this is helpful. Because it tells us "do not put stock in those who don't have light." But, this text does not say that those who may be without light "today" will necessarily be without light "tomorrow." This is where the caution is needed. For tomorrow those very people could repent of their sins and turn. Thus the one who is an apostate today could be a repentant and humble servant tomorrow if the grace of God grabs hold of them.
Basically what I am saying is this: I agree with you that we should be cautious relegating people to final damnation when they apostatize today because we don't ultimately know if they will turn before its too late. However, that does not nullify the Christian's need to be able to test and try the spirits "currently."
Response to Andy Hunte's "Traumatic Experiences and Thorns in the Flesh"
Your posting was a blessing to me. In addition to a well written "paper" (straightforward with logical transitions) I appreciated your insights. We are in agreement that although we don't understand why bad things happen to us, God can use them to draw us closer to Him. It reminded me of my personal "thorn in the flesh." On many occasions, I have plead with God to take asthma from me. A few years ago, God used this thorn to remind me that every breath comes from Him. Looking back, without this physical ailment, I may have not realized my dependence on God for life.
As the song says, "We are weak but He is strong!" I valued your discussion regarding how God can use us, despite the lack of formal education. If God can use a physically-weak-grammar-school-educated teenager, to present His message, then there is hope for us!
"For consider your calling, brethren, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble; but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong." 1 Corinthians 1:26-27
May God continue to "illuminate" your reading!
I really resonated with the comments that James W. Dieujuste wrote regarding Ellen White’s dealing discouragement, hardships and a whole host of other issues. Here was a messenger from God whom we have put on a pedestal thinking that she was out of touch with the issues we too deal with. But in reality, she had the same issues of discouragement, loneliness, conflict with church hierarchy that we as ministers have dealt with and will have to deal with. How comforting that to know that the words of encouragement and advice she gave are not just ones coming from a person who had never experienced any of the trials that ministers go through, but one who had to deal with similar issues and even larger issues that many if not most of us will never have to endure.
I also appreciated the link that James did to Jesus and how He too had to endure many trials and through it all remained faithful at all times to His Father. What a challenge for us as ministers to follow, not just simply Ellen White’s example, but the example that Ellen White followed and that was Jesus. Challenges in ministry will happen, but our job is to remain faithful and hang on to Jesus like those who went before us.
Olilla,
Man are you sure you’re not a Jesuit! Just kidding! I love the idea of taking our knowledge straight to other churches. Let’s share the truth that we have where they are. But let’s take it a little further. Why do we have to require new believers to take the label of SDA? Why can’t they believe the three angels’ message, keep the commandments of God and stay in whatever their denomination is? We could simply encourage them to transform their home church into a church of God from the inside out? We seem to have taken the call to come out of Babylon as only applying to people leaving the Catholic Church or her protestant daughters and then entering into the SDA Church. Is it possible that come out of Babylon is bigger than that traditional understanding? Is it possible that Babylon represents error and the true church represents—The Truth? If so then could we preach the gospel to Lutherans (I’m just picking on them) and advise them to stay in their church so that they can share the truth with their members until the other Lutheran’s kick them out and straight out reject The Truth? (I’m using Truth as short hand for the 3 angels’ message, 10 Commandments, the gospel and the testimony of Jesus Christ—the SDA message.) Just some thoughts for discussion…
Chad Washburn,
I really related to Washburn’s comments about speaking. I love preaching or any opportunity to share insights about Jesus. Often times before and after a sermon, I worry if I will or have shared the message well. Just seeing how the Holy Spirit worked with EG White so thousands of people could hear, understand and enjoy the message of the gospel from her is impressive. Further, how the Holy Spirit guided her in her studies of self improvement gives all of us great hope.
Response to Shelley LeBlanc – “As others knew her”
By James Dieujuste
My comment is in response to Shelley Leblanc’s posting. I truly enjoyed reading what you wrote. I like how you integrated your personal experience into your comment. We really ought to think about the legacy that we will leave behind if/when we pass away. I don’t believe that Ellen G. White knew ahead of time that her most private writings would one day be exposed before the entire world. Hence, we need to live life constantly reflecting God’s image even when we are away from the public’s eye. We need to be faithful both in our private and public lives. Even though we may not be called to hold the office of prophet, we are, however, called to faithfully convey a Christ-centered message in the area our calling and ministry.
I also liked the connection that you made in regards to John the Baptist. I agree that we, like John the Baptist, need to “decrease and faithfully exalt Christ.” Thanks for reminding us of that.
Response on Eric Ollila's reflections.
I appreciate the applications that Eric derived from the lectures and readings. I sensed in his comments his burden for evangelism. To bring others to a deeper knowledge of Our Lord and Saviour. I always appreciate those that are looking and thinking about new ways to reach out. Since I was one who was plucked like a brand plucked from the fire, I am always encouraged to hear the voice of those who will be bold for the Lord. Praise the Lord!!
In terms of the delicate issue of how to keep that light burning in our hearts and to not lose our unique identity as Israel did- I think that the only way is to remember the way that we were led in the past. We still have much too learn that is too quickly and easily being forgotten. One of the surest ways to be successful in evangelism and "infiltration" is to use what we already have as a guide.
I think that Eric highlighted the first most important principle that is so simple, yet we ignore or resist it- The principle can be summed up in one simple word... "GO!"
Evangelism (p.54.1) -Christ "went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom and healing all manners of sickness." He preached in the synagogues because thus He could reach the many who gathered there. Then He went our and taught by the seaside and in the great thoroughfares of travel. The precious truths that He proclaimed were not confined to synagogues..."
My prayer is that we will continue to be light bearers to this lost and dying world. I appreciate the emphasis of this class and hope that all our information and dialogue will help the fire's in our hearts to burn brighter.
In Him
Patricia McCue
Response to Stephane’s reflections:
I too was greatly impressed with how our textbook outlined the conversion of Ellen White- How she was led to repentance and conversion by beholding the love of the Savior. It is impressive that Ellen White’s first vision had to do with a correct picture of God and as Douglas writes, “For the next 75 years, her most compelling mission was to tell the truth about the character of God.”
It is equally interesting to me the chapters that point out Ellen White’s experience as a wife and mother. She is real and we can relate to her. She is an example to us of how we can have an intimate connection with Christ through all of our trials.
It is a heartbreaking experience to loose any family member to death, and here is a mother who lost two of her children and her husband and still maintained her faith on the Lord. She kept her hand on the “green chord of faith” even in her darkest hours. God surely must have been her best friend and I am so thankful that he can be our best friend too!! May we all have “the beauty and simplicity of trusting in God” dawn on our souls. Amen!
In Him
Patricia McCue
This is in response to Stephane's comments of which I am grateful for his time and effort. Here is my clarification: first off, the 'equally inspired' comment means that the message given to any given person by the Holy Spirit is fully inspired: not partially inspired, not half inspired or sprinkling of inspiration, but a full on inspiration by the Holy Spirit. Furthermore, I refute Stephane's concept of inspiration levels in two ways: first, the MODE of inspiration (i.e. dreams, visions, word dictation, or thought inspiration) may be clearer in its delivery from one mode to another but that does diminish the fullness of the inspiration by the Holy Spirit. Could it be that humans 'taint' the message with different or heretical thoughts? Absolutely, but that doesn't mean that inspiration given by the Holy Spirit is any less, it just means that the messenger messed up the message. Secondly, the example that Stephane gave of Paul's words being more inspired (which implies dictatory inspiration - which many would argue that it is thought inspiration - but...meh) I would not only argue that the Corinthian 'saints' had messages that were mainly relevant to JUST the Corinthian church whereas Paul's letters (already viewed by Peter as Scripture) were relevant to a broader audience (i.e. the Christian church as a whole), but that early Christian 'fathers' whose writing were NOT included in the Canon was that it was concluded (if I am not mistaken) that such writings were NOT inspired. Is there truth in their messages? Probably. But that doesn't mean that the particular message was inspired by the Holy Spirit and it certainly doesn't mean that these messages were partially inspired as Stephane seems to suggest. (disclaimer - if EGW says they are then I will humbly and gratefully stand corrected ;) In addition, hindsight being what it is, I should probably not have included the comment about Elisha having a double portion of the spirit, yet I still stand behind my comments in that the messages given by Elisha is no more inspired than was Paul's, but that Elisha had greater access to the Holy Spirit and therefore a greater possibility of MORE fully inspired messages BY the Holy Spirit. (but I can see where that is confusing)
On another side note, I have no idea what my last sentence (in my posting) is trying to say - it really looks and sounds like gibberish, but it made perfect sense at the time.
What does this all mean? It means that unless I want to spend another hour and a half writing a defense of my positions, I should try to be a little bit more clearer in my words.
Response to Clifford Lim’s post of 7/13/08
Cliff, as I neared the end of your post, your last sentence touched me. You said (in reference to Ellen White’s constant pursuit of a close relationship with God), “What a challenge for me today, who has not had God talk to me, like she had, to pursue a relationship with God as she did.” How right you are!
She actually talked with Him in vision, saw and visited with actual angels, walked in vision through Heaven, and yet she never stopped trying to get closer to Him. Perhaps the reason she did this was because the more she saw Him for who He truly is, the more she wanted to see more.
I think that it is too often, today, that we “dumb-down” Jesus. In our attempt to relate to Him we over-humanize Him and (in a way) we treat Him as the Greeks did to their gods. We make Him into our own image and from that image we try to relate to Him. Ellen uplifted His divinity, authority, kingship, and absolute mastery of everything that exists. In this she saw Him in His greatness and that put in bold relief (when she then saw how He was constantly trying to reach us) His compassion.
Your post challenged me to stop humanizing Jesus for purposes of “helping” Him to be relevant to sinful Mankind, and to begin to uplift His supremacy. I now feel that it is through these efforts that what He did (His condescending to help us in the way He did) will be put in sharper focus and draw myself and others to Him. “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.” (John 12:32).
Response to Allen Decena’s post on “The Loneliness of Mrs. White.”
Allen,
I can relate to your post and appreciated you having the courage to address the issue of loneliness. I too have experienced this struggle in my ministry as a Chaplain and have heard how damaging it can be and has been in the lives of other pastors. It seems so funny to think that a person with such an important role in guiding, teaching, admonishing, and counseling others would be neglected in those areas themselves and be lacking strong personal friendships. It was strengthening to hear uplifting words from Ellen White and not only that but also that she struggled with loneliness and overcame. As a seminary student I am enjoying the relationships I am building here and am being blessed immensely by them. I can only hope that the relationships formed here will carry on into our various forms of ministry and form somewhat of a relief/support network for each other. If we can stay connected with our friends and fellow pastors and rely on one another during difficult times our ministries should flourish and never feel the emptiness that loneliness brings. Thanks again my friend.
Blessings,
-MR
In response to James Dieujuste “A light unto our path” post.
James I completely agree with your post. As a church we need to stay humble and have a teachable spirit in order to continue to grow in grace and truth. Psalms 36:9 says:
“For with thee is the fountain of life: in thy light shall we see light.”
So therefore we must continue to stay in this light in order to continue to see more and more light. The only way that we are going to do this is to stay in prayer and Bible Study. Can you imagine the light that God would give us if we were to spend as much time studying and praying as the pioneers did back then? Can you imagine the Bible truths that would be revealed to us? But the same illumination that was available to the pioneers is available to us today, but like you said we must remain teachable.
Good post!
This response is to Chad’s second reflection paper.
I am impressed with his lucid and trenchant insight. I really enjoyed the first part where he raised an important question regarding “when illumination of the Word of God is drastically conflicting with the indispensable truths found in God’s Word. In Christianity we have so many denominations and everyone claims that the Holy Spirit has revealed to them what they hold as doctrine truth. Why are there contradictions when the same Spirit illuminates the word of God to all people?” I have to say that what Chad wrote in expressing his view in understanding illumination is also my query. I also concur with the reason that Chad gave, and I would like to bolster Chad’s reflection by saying that most people have an agenda in how to interpret the Scripture that interferes with what God wants really for His people. This is perhaps why God from time to time needs to raise a prophet to enlighten His people on the missing marks and in other areas. Another thought, along with what Chad said in the second part of his paper, is that as people we think that we know almost everything and thus we do not need the help of the prophet’s view. When we throw out his/her light, we as a people are also heading for the rocks. Thus, the Testimonies are vital for a living church. Illumination is good to a certain degree, but it is not enough. The Church also needs the Testimonies; otherwise we see the same scenario being repeated as in Judges—they did what was right in their own eyes. Thanks for your thoughts, Chad.
Response to Bill Watson-Payne's post on "A Modern Day Prophet"
Like we have been saying (at least us students who have not taken a formal class on EGW), there is a very real human side to Mrs. White that we, at least I, was not exposed to growing up in an Adventist home/church. We're pretty much relegated to the ethereal prophecies that she has brought to our denomination and iconic pedestal that our denominational has placed her on lends to a feeling of discontinuity between us (the lowly, struggling-in-our-Christian-walk members) and THE "prophet" - the bright shinning light of the remnant church. Yet, through this book (I guess not really discussed that much in class though) is the other side of her: the wife (fairly loving - although images of Puritan comportment as far as wife/husband relationships go still is conjured up in my mind); mother; mentor to younger women (the red dress story was absolutely enlightening); the human side to the icon.
One comment in particular in your post struck me was that although there were these two sides to Mrs. White and it seems (at least that's the impression I get) that she tried very hard to keep them separate, there were times where these two sides of her life, the human and the icon, clashed. The point where she tried to overcompensate her time with her children is a by-product of her 'office' tasks and role, I don't know if there was anyway that she could have avoided it. And I can't help but think that even we, as pastors, have trouble not letting our families be affected by our tasks and roles, how much more problematic would it have been for the Whites in which both parents were HEAVILY involved in ministry. At times we have this inclination to do as much as we can for the cause of Christ and yet there are times when we are faced with the choice of paying a heavy price (the health of our families) in pursuit of that inclination. I can only console myself, in the midst of horror stories of rebellious and degenerate PK's and dysfunctional pastoral families, that God will help us balance our 'office' life and family life and cling to the hope and promise that all things work for good for them that love the Lord.
This is in response to Scottie Baker's post: Strength of Frailty
I too am amazed at the amount accomplished by one so 'frail'. And I think you raise an interesting question 'do we need to be at our worst constantly to have the perfect support and strength from God', and I would agree with you that it should absolutely not be the case. In fact I believe that God wants us to always try our best to also bring light to the weaknesses and short comings that we humans are plagued with ever since the fall if for no other reason that for God to get all the glory when things that get accomplished, by all logical reasoning, should not be accomplished. Isn't that why God chose the Israelite nation (to a certain degree)? Isn't that why he choose people of humility and noticeable frailty like EGW and Paul and Moses and Luther and Peter and....so that we cannot say that it was by our might or power but by God's Spirit? I see this dynamic as part and parcel of the method in which God uses to draw people close to Him and I think EGW played her part perfectly.
Response to Tammie Lindsey’s post entitled “Rebuking, Repenting, Baptism and the Remnant”
In this post, Tammie asked a lot of questions! Questions, I’m sure, which lingers in many other people’s minds as well. I will respond to her question on baptism: “Is baptism required to enter heaven?” It is true, in class we said no. And specifically pertaining to either water baptism or Holy Spirit baptism, I still say neither are necessary to enter heaven. Romans 10:9-10 says “if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.”
This passage reminds me of the thief on the cross. After witnessing the activities surrounding Jesus’ crucifixion, he really had a change of heart! He was converted in that moment. His conversion led him to confess that truly Jesus was the son of God. He believed and had a repentant heart! And Jesus assured him that he would be saved in the heavenly kingdom.
I find this to be a exemplary story because it answers the question of the necessity of water baptism. The thief was not afforded the opportunity to get water-baptized after he took his stand for Jesus. I would also add that he also did not get the opportunity to become Holy-Spirit baptized after he took his stand for Jesus! This now leads us to question what “Holy-Spirit baptism” really entails; and I may be wrong here, but if the thief was not Holy-Spirit baptized either, then this means that neither water nor Holy-Spirit baptism is necessary for entry into heaven.
Baptism is an outward symbol of an inward change. This symbol tells others that a change has happened on the inside. However, the change could still happen even if the symbol is not present to show it. I believe God is ultimately concerned with the actual change of heart that takes place more than the outward symbols.
Response Scottie Baker – “Strength of Frailty”
My comment is in response to Scottie Baker’s posting. I really like the insights that you brought forth in your posting. It is true that we need to acknowledge our weakness in comparison to God’s awesome strength. When we believe that we have the capacity to do things on our own, we put ourselves in a position where God can decide to show us how weak we really are. God wants us to remember that the things we are able to accomplish are not done by our power or by our might but that they are done by His Spirit (Zechariah 4:6). When we lower ourselves and acknowledge our weakness, God seizes the opportunity to lift us up. We also need to remember to glorify God when He takes us out of our weakness and lifts us up to a high place. Thanks Scottie for your comment on this subject matter.
By James Dieujuste
Response to Clifford Lim’s post regarding Section III.
I appreciated the selections that you presented in your post regarding Ellen White’s humility. This section further helped me gain an appreciation of this misunderstood messenger as well. There are hundreds, perhaps thousands, who continue to view her as a smug old lady eager to shake a gnarled finger at the evildoer. Douglass shatters this image. I wish those who use her writings to beat others into submission to their viewpoint, could read this book and especially Chapter 15. How could one cling to that hypercritical view when they read her words, “It caused me great distress to see others troubled or grieved.” She would deliver a softened message and then go by herself and weep in agony of spirit. The weight of her responsibility and weaknesses were ever before her. However, God uses humble people to do His greatest work. God uses moldable clay.
When asked what she wanted to be when she grew up, I’m certain Ellen White didn’t answer, “A Prophet!” God can work great wonders through those who aren’t thrilled with their call. Moses was called to deliver God’s message to Pharaoh as he stood before the divine manifestation of a burning bush. He argued, “You’ve got the wrong man. I don’t have skills.” False humility? I think not. Ellen White wrote of this prophet, “He [Moses] pleaded as an excuse a lack of ready speech. He had been the general of armies of Egypt, and he certainly knew how to speak. But he was afraid that he would bring self into his work (MS 11,1903).” Ellen White’s life and ministry illustrates what it means to be selfless.
Thank you the thought-provoking post. Continue to let God use you to bless others.
Chad Washburn's Response to Mike Rhynus
I totally agree with Mike about the need of having a balance theology. It seems that our church is a magnet for unbalance people. Every church I’ve been to has someone who is unbalance in their theology. Salvation must be looked at holistically and we should weigh everything in the balances. Why can’t we have all the good facets of salvation put together? They really need to be put together in order to have a right understanding how one is saved. Why do people so often lean towards one side? Well I truly believe it has to do with people’s personalities, and what they experience in life. Some people are just bent towards legalism, it’s in their blood and others are on the other side bent towards extreme liberalism. Balance theology does take a lot of work and effort and I think as pastors we have an up hill battle ahead of us and it’s not going to be easy.
A Response to Mike’s discussion regarding EGW’s writings being used as weapon to set a standard for the Church. I have experienced being whipped with EGW quotes, but some of what people quoted really made sense to me. However I have also been hurt, not by EGW, I have nothing against her, but those people who quote her to get what they want, that is control and power over someone weaker. I don’t think we need to be afraid have having a standard? I wouldn’t be here today if it wasn’t for EGW quotes and the Bible. I do believe you can quote her wrong, maybe saying it out of context or in a condemning voice, but lets not be afraid of reproof, it’s good for the soul, it is what makes us grow more like Christ. Yes, some things EGW says hurts, they stretch us, because they show us where we have gone off track. Hey if we don’t like reproof we better not read the Bible either. I think where our church has gone wrong, as Mike has said we aren’t balance. We need to focus on both EGW’s admonition alongside with the love and grace of God she presents so often in her writings.
Tammie’s comment regarding the remnant sparked my interest. I took a class in the Theology of the Church while doing some M.Div classes at La Sierra and the one thing I remember from the class was that the church is ultimately a “Remnant making people”, one that points people to the direction that God wants. I think as SDA’s we have often missed this point and so focused on people joining the SDA church that we forget to teach them how to win other souls to Christ. Consequently we have oftentimes been misunderstood and presented the message of the SDA church in a way that people think they are joining an exclusive club. (While it is, memberships is open to all and free to all who accept)
I strongly believe that the SDA church does hold a special place in Salvation History and we need to continue this movement to win others to Christ. However, I think as a movement in order to make this church truly a “remnant making people” we as a church need to rethink how we do discipleship. I say this, knowing that in my own ministry I find this a weak point, however I think this is indeed a challenge for all of us ministers to remember that we are part of a remnant movement and in order for that movement to continue, we must disciple our followers (members and friends) to play an active part in this role of making others part of this remnant.
This is in response to Patricia Mccue�s �Threads of Gold.�
By Bill Watson-Payne
Thank you for writing from your heart and sharing what the Holy Spirit is doing in your life right now. I too am encouraged by the path of our pioneers. They experienced great pain and hardship to move the good news of Jesus from town to town. It is evident that suffering is a part of the Christian experience. Some do suffer more than others, while it is not a sign of more or less devotion to God, working for Him involves suffering. As we examine the life of the prophets of the O.T. we see their sufferings. Many suffered at the hands of outsiders but most at the hand of their own people. To have a ministry where there seems to be no success but you keep on going takes a lot of praying and courage. Paul lists many of his sufferings, but speak of triumph; �We are hard pressed on every side, yet not crushed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; 9 persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed.� 2 Cor. 4:8,9.nkjv. The life of Mrs. White was one of suffering; I supposed she could not have it better than other messengers of the Lord. Perhaps suffering teaches us all to depend on God more and not on our abilities. I believe that God allows sufferings because hopefully it keeps us on our knees, where in our weakness, He is strong. The threads of Gold do glitter, we have to take the time to appreciate them. Thanks Pat.
Response to Chad,
really appreciated your comments on the different interpretations. It’s true, why are we all divided? I’m wondering if it’s because we are all trying to control the interpretation that others have, instead of allowing people to continue to search scripture and grow in faith and leave them to God to convince. Sure some will fall away, this is sin, selfishness and pride. Also, I’ve noticed that often we have need to hear the truth repeated several times over a period of time before we can actually learn it and accept it as truth. I mean look how long it takes to learn simple concepts like addition of single digit numbers. 2+2=4, always and it took an entire year in the first grade to get this. “Jesus paid it all” or a free vacation once a week can seem way more complicated to adults who are used to paying cash or using credit for everything and overworking.
Response to Andy's previous post,
We see how God used EGW and did miraculous things in her life. I wonder if EG White had not wrote down her experiences and told people of them if she would have realized how mightily God was working in her life. Is it possible that God does these things for us but we don’t take note of them?
Response to Keenan Tyler's Paper: "Evangelism, Local and Global, and Race Relations: Chapter 19"
I really appreciate your point when you said, "As the world is constantly changing in this information age, we must continue to learn and to teach how to effectively evangelize." I resonate with this point. I've seen too many examples of evangelistic efforts conducted with no apparent thought to the needs and values of the listeners. You nailed the point when you emphasized doing evangelism the way Jesus did: meeting people where they are. Where Ellen White emphasized learning new languages in preparation for mission service, it might be time for us to emphasize "cultural exegesis" in preparation for evangelistic efforts. In this age of information overload, we have to guarantee that our message makes a practical, immediate difference in the lives of our listeners, otherwise they will tune us out with all of the other excess and irrelevant information.
Thank you for your post that emphasized these important issues once again.
Response to Stephane B’s post of 7/25/2008
Stephane, in your post “Third Reflection Paper” I was struck by the logic that I had missed in my reading of the same chapter. Thank you for bringing this out.
Yes, Ellen G. White was a great communicator and she was a great theologian. Both of these she accomplished, not by attending school (which is the amazing part) but through Heavenly means. After all, before God asked her to be His messenger to His end-time people, she could not write or speak in public (thus, she was not a great communicator) and she, by her own admissions, did not understand much of the theological talk spoken by her fellow Adventists (and thus, she was not a great theologian). However, she was great at both, because God is great at both and He was using her.
This is just one more “proof” of the Divine working in this little lady. She wrote about things that the most studied theologian, today, still struggles over. And she uses words that the only most advanced English doctor would use on a normal day. Yet, her words sink down into the depths of the least eloquent, unlearned individual over 100 years removed from the time she wrote them.
I would say that she was not great in either, but by the fact that she was great in both proves that she was the instrument of God.
Blog3
Response to Shelley Leblanc’s post: “Ellen White ate oysters and drank a pint of wine!”
Shelley! You crack me up! The way you approached your last post was great. You started with an incredibly robust statement and ended with a wonderful clarification. Your title definitely caught my attention and your writing style was very pleasant to read. Not only that, your post was very insightful and thought provoking. It definitely is interesting how Ellen White’s message was a call for believers to begin aligning their spirituality with their lifestyle’s as well as their eating habits. I appreciated how you clarified that even she did not implement all of the changes at once in her own life and also did not hold anything against “meat eaters.” The health message, as you pointed out, is becoming commonplace today outside of Adventism but back then I bet many of her ideas seemed very far fetched! However, even now God’s timing seems to once again be impeccable since we are living in a wildly obese world where healthy living can and will turn out to be life saving for many people. Isn’t it beautiful that our message from the beginning has been and continues to be one that promotes total health and spirituality?! I am definitely thankful for the changes God introduced through the teachings of Ellen White that have continued to be part of our church since early on. Thank you again for your insight and gentile candor.
Blessings,
Mike Rhynus
This comment is on Scottie’s last reflection paper.
Thank you, Scottie, for reminding us of a picture, which we have perhaps lost, about miracles happening today and that God is still performing miracles in our own life. I was very intrigued by how you brought this concept of the health message and miracles together. This was the pith of your reflection. We think of miracles as always being big events; however, as you have demonstrated, in Ellen White’s life miracles were connected to the daily events that surrounded her. Because of her willingness to live the message presented to her and the miracle of her living longer, the result is beautiful books that many, including myself, can have the blessing to enjoy.
Perhaps our picture of miracles should be redefined with a new and fresh look at the Bible. We often look at biblical miracles, where people were healed or something extraordinary happened such as feeding five thousand with a tiny lunch. But what about the conversions of Peter, John and James; these are also a miracle. The fact that, in Acts, Barnabas went after Paul and took him under his wings was a great miracle, which, if it would not have been done, perhaps many books in the New Testament would not have been written. It has made me think to look at miracles in a different way. I believe Scottie has reflected well on how this was also applicable in the life and ministry of Ellen White.
In response to Eric Ollila post on section IV:
Hey Eric I also find it interesting that Ellen White didn’t find anything wrong in receiving government aid for various projects, and then backs it up with the Bible by using the story found written in Nehemiah. This just goes to show you that we must have proper balance when it comes to things of this nature. I also agree that we must have a John the Baptist mentality when it comes to Adventism. We must stay humble and true to the light that God has richly blessed us with at the same time willing to move into more light when it is revealed to us. (Not meaning leave the church, just growing in wisdom.)
Good post.
Comment on Shelley LeBlanc's post
I appreciated your post on perseverance! That has been something that has stuck out to me as well. Things would get overwhelming for Ellen White but she would just stick with it and God would always come through for her.
We need more of that Spirit and God is more than willing to give it to us. We need the attitude that says "I will not fail nor be discouraged" no matter what happens. But this attitude is hard to have when one is confronted with personal weaknesses and sins, the devil has a sinister knack for rubbing them in your face right when everything else seems to be falling apart in your life.
What I like about Ellen White is that she was quick to rebound. She would make mistakes, but she was quick to take it to the Savior and she just kept on moving right along like nothing ever happened. Constantly pressing forward. This is something that I am striving for and want to master in my lifetime, being quick to rebound, even when I fall. Getting right back up and moving forward with Jesus.
Praise God it is possible with His help:)
Response to Stephane B’s Third Reflection
I wholeheartedly agree with the statement presented in your post that students must think for themselves and not merely be a reflector of other’s thoughts. I appreciate that you demonstrate this belief by your comments in class and even in this posting - you agreed and disagree with Douglass.
The Lord through the prophet Isaiah urges us to come and reason together. Ellen White encourages the use of common sense. Jesus, during His earthly ministry, prompted people to think for themselves. The Master Teacher would answer questions with questions and taught using parables. We can still hear Jesus asking His disciples today, “Ok. Now that you’ve told me who everybody says that I am…who do you say that I am?” (Matt 16:15, my paraphrased version)
As ministers and educators let us consider the counsel, “...If God's word were studied as it should be, men would have a breadth of mind, a nobility of character, and a stability of purpose, that is rarely seen in these times. Thousands of men who minister in the pulpit are lacking in essential qualities of mind and character, because they do not apply themselves to the study of the Scriptures. They are content with a superficial knowledge of the truths that are full of rich depths of meaning; and they prefer to go on, losing much in every way, rather than to search diligently for the hidden treasure.” {Christian Education 118.2}
I must admit that I was unenthusiastic when I first learned about the course requirement of posting “thoughts” for other classmates to review. I was prepared to sit and absorb the professor’s knowledge through lecture. What a surprise! During these three weeks, I have been richly blessed, especially by posts like this one. Thank you Stephane. Thank you Dr. Hanna.
Response to Scottie Baker
I would have to agree with Scottie regarding EGW visions having miraculous events attached to them to help the skeptics believe. I have read “Life Sketches” which is a biography of Ellen White’s life and when I read it, it sounds like the days of Pentecost in acts happening all over again. Throughout the Bible God uses signs and wonders, eg. 1st God showing signs and wonders to Pharaoh and His people. Did those signs and wonders help Pharaoh believe, or how about even God’s people who not only witness the miracles of Egypt but all the miracles performed for them in the wilderness and the land of Canaan? Even God’s people never fully trusted Him after all those signs. There are some exceptions like king Nebuchadnezzar in Daniel 4:2-4 who believed in the God of Heaven because of the signs and wonders. However, we cannot forget that Nebuchadnezzar later on turned his back on God and God made Him into a mad man. It seems signs and wonders don’t really work with fallen man. When Jesus was confronted by Pharisees and Sadducees in Matthew 16:1-4, they were seeking a sign from Him. However the reality the signs of the times were all around them but they couldn’t discern them. Jesus calls them out in v. 4 “A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign shall be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.’ And He left them and departed.” Even when Jesus rose from the grave, the “the sign of the prophet Jonah,” they still didn’t believe. I think signs are wonderful but they fail to put an end to disbelief or doubt for some.
The thing that makes me slow to believe signs and wonders is Paul’s warning in 2 Thessalonians 2:9-11 “The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,” Satan is a live in well, and he will be doing signs and wonders in the Christian church, and even in our own church. I think it is wise not to believe anything until time shows that it is of God. We must test everything “to the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them” (Isaiah 8:20). Even if the miracle glorified God, I would still be careful in accepting that miracle as a verification of someone validity of God is working through them. Also if someone claims to be a prophet we must put them to the test: 1st Matt. 7:20 by their fruit, 2nd by 1 John. 4:3 is their message Christ center, 3rd Deut. 2:22 fulfillment of prophecy. Ellen White I think has proven her prophetic gift not by the miraculous signs that surrounded it, but by the test of time; seeing the fruit (God’s blessing on what she touched), fulfillment of what she said and her ministry standing up to the test of scripture.
Joe Thelusca
Reflection to Chad Washburn’s paper (7/21)
First and foremost, I want to take this opportunity to commend Chad for his thoughtful reflection which as result helps to consider the seriousness of illumination and the writings of E.G White. I agree completely with my colleague for his understanding concerning the role of the Holy Spirit in the process of illumination. It is an unequivocal fact that the Holy Spirit cannot and will never provides God’s children with mixed message and contradictory truths. In fact, Jesus himself told the disciple before he went to heaven that he will send the comforter, and he will lead us in all truth. That’s being said, it is a tragedy to see how Christians from different denominations just claim illumination from the Holy Spirit in their quest to understand scriptures even though they already have a preconceived notion of what they are want to hear and know from the bible texts. Again, the both inspiration and illumination are the work of the Holy Spirit and it must be made clear that there is no error, contractions or misguidance from the spirit of prophecy in neither of this area.
In regards to the necessity to go back to the word of God and the reading of the writings of Sister White, I full concur with that conception because we are in danger of loosing our true identity as sentinels who have been entrusted with a specific message for a world in darkness due to a lack of biblical knowledge and the spirit of prophecy from our parts. We as ministers who have been called for such a time as this need to be bold and courageous as we ought to take a strong stand for Jesus by admonishing our parishioners to go back to some of the primitive ways of serving the Lord by getting motivated and excited to study the words of God, the spirit of prophecy and to witness for Jesus in our world. Again, I thank you for this awesome much needed reminder.
This is in response to Eric Ollila's post on Section IV specifically concerning religious liberty. I don't know why but I'm not so interested in religious liberty hiding behind the excuse that God is in control 'setting up and tearing down kingdoms'. I still have this notion that I cannot effect much change in the bigger picture nor do I wish to. Having said that, I have not come into direct opposition to something that directly threatens my religious liberty. The closest I've come to that situation was going to a secular university and I was behind the proverbial 8 ball because I didn't study on Sabbath. In those situations (perhaps it was my pacifist personality) I just didn't fight it and took the loss. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that it isn't important, but that it is just not an interest for me (this is my post-modern/political correct side of me speaking out). But we'll see what happens when I'm directly confronted with a threat to my religious freedom.
Joe Thelusca
Reflection to Keenan Tyler’s paper (7/28)
I think Keenan did a great job in calling our attention to the significance of E.G. White’s health message in light of the neglects that many of us often demonstrated in the area of health ministry. Even though, Sister White was not the first one to know about health issues, she definitely is the key figure in this subject because she was specified inspired to write many volumes of which “Ministry of Healing is my favorite. I think the problem is that many of our leaders and pastors don’t seem to promote her health message or at least not concentrating on educating their members about this pertinent health lessons. In any case, I agree with my colleague in that our members must be mindful that they don’t send mixed signals to the world in the way they choose to practice the various health reform recommendations. At the same time, we ought to develop practical strategies on how to best promote Sister White’s health message to both unbelievers and our church members. I would like to suggest that this task should not be taken lightly because we don’t want to give the wrong impression about our faith and the prophetess as we strive to achieve a great deed.
All in all, my colleague did a fine job in outlining the needs to be authentic in regards to the applications of Sister White’s health message. In closing, I would to say that we should try to use her advisers as much as we can especially as a vehicle to attract those who might have health problems or who just want to learn more on health and living healthy. Finally, it is crucial for us to emphasize the connection between health and spirituality by following her guidelines and teaching, so that we don’t misrepresent her good intention.
Comment on shelley leblanc's post...
Ellen White ate oysters and drank a pint of wine!
In this comment by Shelly, I appreciated her highlighting the point that while Ellen White was illuminated on Health Reform, she was revealed the principles step by step. Also Jesus comment to His disciples, when he said, “I have many things to tell you, but I cannot reveal this to you all at once.” What a principle to follow when introducing people to Jesus, too often as Adventists we have found ourselves converting people into the church and when they get there, they are shocked at the little nuances that go into the Adventist lifestyle. As I think about the change that people have to go through when becoming an Adventist, we have a lot of work to do in the area of learning to be sensitive to this transitional stage of their conversion experience and find better ways to mentor them through the stages. Too often we have tried to cram the Adventist lifestyle down their throat in one Bible study and when they experience it, they are scared half to death and run out of the church. One of the major things we as a church and I believe as a Seminary must work towards is to teach Pastors and our members how to make disciples of people. This includes a very important part, the mentoring stage. This is tough because it takes commitment to be a good mentor and friend, changes can’t happen overnight. It may take years of work to help people accept the things that we hold dear to the Adventist lifestyle. However as challenging as it may be, I think if we commit ourselves to doing that work, we will find ourselves better Adventists as well as find that our retention rate is far higher, because we have not force fed the new converts, we have shepherded them through the process and built a relationship with them as well as grown ourselves because we have been mentoring them. I think this is a challenge that must be undertaken now especially in this relationship based society.
Response to Andy Hunte’s post of 7/30/08
Andy, I think I am learning the same lesson. Thank you for presenting it like you did.
IF our evangelistic campaigns were reaping series instead of sowing/harvesting meetings, perhaps things would be a bit different. I know from experience that we set things up to be reaping but in the end people are really introduced to a lot of new concepts at the meetings and it may be a little too much too quick.
How about our ministries in the churches as well? God is very patient with us. We have a lifetime to get things straight in our minds and still we have a very long way to go when it ends. I do believe that too much emphasis is placed on numbers and not enough on the work is actually that of the Holy Spirit. We don’t reap at all, He does. And really, are people fruit to be picked? Shouldn’t we rephrase and rethink the process? I know big meetings to pull people together. I know that big meetings do reach a lot of people because of the spectacle. So maybe we don’t have to get rid of them, just rethink what we are doing with them.
God is patient and we, as His representatives, should be too.
Response to Keenan Tyler (Week # 3)
My comment is in response to Keenan Tyler’s posting. I appreciate the level of forthrightness and frankness that came across in your blog. You are right on target! It is true that Ellen White was far ahead of her time in the type of health counsels that she gave. The medical community can learn a tremendous amount from her just by reading her books. I also agree that we shouldn’t just applaud her counsels but take the extra step of actually following her recommendations. You made a good observation in noting that we need to be mindful not to comfort ourselves into thinking that we are fine as vegetarians even if practice unhealthy habits in other areas. There are other factors aside from vegetarianism that affect our well-being. We do need to live a balanced lifestyle. Thanks for your wise counsel on this topic.
By James Dieujuste
Response to Joe Thelusca:
The Role of the Inspired Messenger
Great work summarizing the role of Ellen White as the messenger of God. You particularly got me thinking once again as I read your reflection on inspiration. I always find it shocking, even awe-inspiring, to think that the thoughts and messages of God can be impressed upon the prophet, as you suggest. How can the infinite communicate through the finite? Yet He did...and He does. In my estimation, this in itself is one of the greatest miracles on our planet. Thanks for drawing my attention back to it.
In response to Allen’s post entitled “Answer to all my questionings” & “one of the last strongholds,” I am also a believer in our Adventist health message. Through the visions God gave to Ellen White, we as a people are poised to be wiser when it comes to healthy living. I say “poised to be wiser” because both the knowledge and opportunity are present and available, but oftentimes I believe we still miss the mark in our practice. What I mean by that is this: we have promoted vegetarianism by substituting a meat diet with tofu or soya and in return increased the sodium content for preservation purposes. As a result, the high sodium content now becomes the main ingredient doing harm to our bodies instead of the meat. We have advanced in one area while sacrificing in another, but both are equally needed. The “vege” in the word vegetarian refers to vegetables, which I believe should be the main staple of vegetarianism. All the other psudo meats, because of how they are preserved, still fall short of God’s ideal for our diet.
In response to Tammie's post on 7/31.
I appreciate your comments about character development. I echo your sentiment that this needs to be a bigger part of our Advent message for this time. where I grew up, and will be going to work as a pastor in a year, there has been a significant focus on the grace of God, without even a suggestion that character development is a part of a relationship with God. As a result, we have a generation of people growing up without even realizing that the Bible should inform their decisions in life. You are absolutely right: until more people get back to the basics of personal spirituality, it will be difficult for God to use us as a people.
This is in response to Tammie’s comment on the issue of her uncertainty as to whether those who have left the SDA Church are lost or is this the last true church.
I believe that this church was prophesied into being. The SDA church is in existence for such a time as this. But we could not say beyond the shadow of a doubt that this church is the only receptor of Truth. We are only 15 million people world-wide perhaps @ 24 million when we count those who are attending Sabbath School around the world. But there are @6 billion people on earth. I know that in comparing Noah and the flood, we are at a similar situation where only 8 out of the millions who were on earth But I believe that God has to have a mechanism for saving others who have not heard of the Seventh-day Adventist church.
Remember that the church is local and it is also universal. The universal part is a bit un-textualized for us. We do not have a clear definition of what the universal church looks like, so everything outside of our understanding seems wrong. We have the privilege of embracing this beautiful message that the SDA Church teaches but we cannot believe that we are the only ones teaching truth. For us to reach the rest of the world and get everyone into the SDA church, we would all have to be like the Mark Finley’s and C.D. Brooks to get this accomplished and even they had their weaknesses. This is a God thing. I believe this is the true church, and I have dedicated my life to inviting people to its fellowship as the Body of Christ but I do not believe that you have to be a part of the SDA church in order to be saved.
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