Comments on assignments for Doctrine of Salvation, Summer 2009.
This thread is reserved for your comments and ongoing discussion regarding the assignments posted in the previous thread.
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Paul begins chapter five of Romans by referring to his thesis of justification by faith. Having established his argument with substantive evidence from the Old Testament he begins to discuss the blessings of Justification by Faith;(a)there is peace with God,(b)we have access to grace in which we stand,(c)there is cause for rejoicing in hope, so that we can glory even in tribulations,(d)there is God's love which He first demonstrated with the gift of His Son through the Holy Spirit Finally, there is salvation from God's wrath (vs9).All of this is made possible when we are reconciled to God through the death of His Son and should be the basis for endless rejoicing. To explain further the way in which salvation is made possible, Paul compares Christ to Adam. Through one man, Adam, sin and death entered the world, and the consequences have led to the death of many. In a similar way, through one man, Christ, many may now become righteous. Through Jesus' death on the cross, justification is made possible for many .Upon comparing Christ with Adam, Paul briefly mentions that with the entering in of law sin abounded. But the increase of sin has been adequately answered by the grace offered in Jesus Christ It took me a while to accept that the wrath spoken of in verse nine is in reference to God’s wrath. It perhaps is safe to conclude that Christ's death was to appease God's wrath.
Doctrine of Salvation Reflection: June 9, 2009. Today’s Class Discussion (June 8, 2009) was very educative especially the emphasis on the need for a broader understanding of the term doctrine and their (doctrine’s) historical formulation. Most of the debates in the reformation period had to do with biblical doctrines that were not clear to the people for lack of possessing personal copies of the Bible and knowledge of exegesis. Today we have a privilege to own and read the Bible in vernacular and having systematized exegetical principles; yet surprising we have more doctrinal disputes. Illustratively the 1888 saga, the more recent Question on Doctrine, which have created wounds in the Adventist church that are felt far and near (are yet to heal as I witnessed during the last 50th anniversary that took place here at Andrews), and WACO in Texas all of which have one thing in common: doctrinal misapprehension and misapplication. My perception is that had these doctrines been presented in the right manner, the debates that ensued would not have created the devastating divisions that are still prevalent. I know of churches that have been disbanded in my country and the major contributing factor to their disbanding being doctrinal. As highlighted in class, personalizing issues when it comes to discussing church doctrines polarizes the church into antagonistic factions. One of the contributing factors could be that the church at large does not understand what doctrines are, how and why they formulated (this is my opinion). It is therefore important to know that doctrines are human formulations and they are not infallible statements but rather an interpretation of a personal understanding of the Biblical truths. I would therefore stress the need for maturity and tolerance when fellow believer attempt to articulate what may seem to be unbiblical or an official statement of truth. As a church we do not belief in creeds, though some interpretation of scripture if done under acceptable exegesis must be given the benefit of doubt and be appreciated just as we have accepted our fundamental beliefs, which are not creeds, but pillars of our faith as they were formulated, as I believe, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. For sure the Bible does have sound doctrines—teachings—and the people of God can be led to the discovery of such doctrines (1 Tim 4: 13, 16). The Bible studies we share with others may rightly be interpreted as doctrines in one way or another: Paul calls such “sound words” (2 Tim 1:13, see also 2 Tim 2:6-8). I therefore call for open mindedness when discussing doctrines and allowing the Holy Spirit to guiding our discussions. Doctrines ought not to be discussed in a debate form, but through dialogue with an attitude to learn from each other and were possible correcting each other in the Spirit of Christ. We must tolerate and love each other as brothers and sisters; discussing doctrinal issues with the desire to edify and revealing the character of our loving God and Christ.
A Response to Herbert Oliphant's posting . . . I too struggle understanding Christ's sacrifice as satisfaction of God's wrath. I could be way off base but it is helpful for me to think of God's wrath not as wrath against the sinner, rather, wrath in principle against sin.
John Sumba I enjoyed your posting on early doctrines of salvation. I think you are right on in your conclusions. I especially liked your emphasis on allowing productive debate among Christians. I heard a sermon by John Hohnberger (escape to God) recently and he made a great point that I have reflected on much. He basically said that they way we treat those we disagree with is just as important as the doctrines we teach as a church.
The readings and lectures has been a great eye opener on the salvation story, the writings of Paul, the salvation story covered by Mrs. White and the classes discussions have help me understand the different modules that could be considered in understanding the broad gift of salvation. Paul had his own way with words and that makes it difficult to read and understand the full content of his thoughts. But when one has grabbed the depth of his thinking it opens up a new world of reasoning. The book of Romans goes beyond the fact of faith to establish salvation is free to all who wants it. Mrs. White point to its effectiveness in its freedom, and the pending peril for those who do not accept it, I am of the opinion one cannot escape if he neglect so great salvation. Paul‘s reasoning is also of these lines. God in his mercy have embrace all mankind with the gift of salvation. In other to achieve his goal Christ took steps down the path of humiliation, by becoming flesh and lived among men. The real deal is he had to be among men to show salvation and to point men to the glory of the father through salvation. It was rather interesting to discover that no one module can cover the full dept of salvation. But instead as many module as possible could be used as a giant puzzle to put the pieces together to see the full picture. Even then there may be other areas that may be left out; Mrs. White said “it is beyond all finite intelligence to comprehend the full mystery of redemption”. She used the same word like Paul (redemption) to establish the fortunes of salvation. But to me the big picture is salvation could only be made possible through the union of divinity with humanity. “By beholding the sinner is transformed and elevated to the very summit of dignity” said Mrs. White, this is a statement of being saved and is being saved, the process is believe that salvation is available to me. And living as Paul said “by whom we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for his name”. That is just great, the writers guided by God have point us to the fact that salvation is an every day thing. And within your own module on can grow to know Christ’s caving grace better.
would like to comment on the assinment by John Shumba. I really appreciated your statement about the church being polarised by misrepresentation of other doctrines to church. I appreciate his statement the we should debate but allow the holy Spirit to lead us so that we will not deviate from the truth.
I would like to comment on the assinment by John Shumba. I really appreciated your statement about the church being polarised by misrepresentation of other doctrines to church members. I appreciate his statement that we should debate but allow the holy Spirit to lead us so that we will not deviate from the truth.
I am responding to Dennis' comment. I agree on his definition of justification, that it is God pronouncing us righteous and that we have nothing to do with whether we are justified. At the same time, it is important to stress that while we can do nothing to be justified, justification is something that must be accepted and so if we will not be justified if we do not accept it.
I am responding Herbert's comment. I agree with the idea that Christ's grace covers the original sin of Adam. And while I also agree with the idea that Christ's death appeased God's wrath, I don't know if His death was done strictly for that purpose.
As someone who has personally experienced a church war that deeply wounded my family, I appreciate your comments, and agree whole-heartedly that we are in need of whole-Bible theology.
Paul does not seem to be drawing a neat, clean comparison between being justified and being saved from God's wrath ("we have been justified. . . how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through Him!") This makes me wonder two things. Firstly, is justification something else, something more, or something else than being saved from God's wrath? And if justification is something else, what is it?
Secondly, it makes me wonder about the nature of God's wrath. Before we had been saved from His wrath, God demonstrated His own love for us in that Christ died for us. Could this mean that God's wrath is such that it did not prevent Him from making the great sacrifice of His Son? Giving up your life for someone doesn't seem very wrathful to me. I suspect that I don't know much the nature of God's wrath . . .
Ah, Robert... I totally resonate with your experience (or non-experience?) of hope. "The second coming of Christ – the change in reality that will come on that great day – rarely go beyond the level of theoretical knowledge to me. . . . I have rarely experienced the practical reality of hope. It makes some sense in my mind, but not in my soul." Sometimes I find myself even avoiding these more hopeful, future themes because it doesn't make as much "sense" to me, but I've felt for some time now--the last several months--that this part of my experience needs to be shored up. I need to be hoping more! Thank you for your thoughts on this.
On Brandon's blog: Enjoyed your comments on the chronology of White's statements. While it is important to study her views and how they developed through her experiences, it is also important for us to lay our foundation in Scripture, and then compare the Biblical chronology to White's experience. Second comment is on your comments about universal legal justification. I also agree that many so called "scholars" tend to take the topic of "in Christ" and "in Adam" beyond a meaning from Scripture. This tends to end up in mystical beliefs that are human rather than divine. We must remember that our human words cannot fully express the divine concepts of salvation and grace.
On Jason Hine's blog: Enjoyed your comments on Rodriguez's comments. AMR's comment that all humans that come into the world belong to Christ because he paid the price of redemption was very deep for me. This is a very powerful thought that we all must start with in our journey. So to often, do Christians feel that as sinners, we belong in the domain of darkness. Also, I agree that we shouldn't exclude people who have different views. I'm reminded of the various models of salvation that we covered in class. Instead of trying to pick one or two that best fits our understanding, we should try to understand all the models and see what their interpretations are. By this manner, we can understand various people's beliefs and introduce a holistic model for understanding and believing salvation
Hey, Hyung, thanks for what you have written, I appreciate it. I like your point that we don’t necessarily try to understand things in a complicated way. I also believe that because Jesus wants to save us so much that He did His best to make us understand easier. And we do have a responsibility to tell others about this simple truth of salvation. I also like what you have said about Mrs. White. True. We should first have a personal relationship with Christ. I think that is the core. What would it mean if we had all the knowledge on salvation yet our relationship with Jesus is empty? Thanks for your points.
A response to Daniel Yim: Daniel, I appreciate what you have written. I really enjoyed it. I like how you point about the hearts of the sinners. The salvation is Christ centered and it cannot be done without Christ but we also cannot neglect the hearts of us humans as well. I think this should be a burden for us Christians so that we can remember that there are people out there who are seeking to be saved. I also like what you said about the objective process of salvation. It is true we didn’t vote on who to save us. It was already given which I am so thankful for. And it is important that we should remember that God is waiting for our response.
I appreciated the self reflective nature of your post. In our personal experience of Salvation and our walk with God, it is hard to admit where we find that we have uncertainty, or where questions remain unanswered. But it is true, that in admitting to those thoughts and inviting God to be present, it can somehow lead us closer to where we want to be, even by simply admitting that we lack something.
I agree very much with your post. It does seem that there is a great deal of subtle complications that are happening when it comes to articulating and defining the doctrine of salvation. It is true that, like Dr.Hanna said in class, there is "tension" when we try to explain or talk about divine things like salvation. Part of the issue is also that not one person can come to understand all the aspects of salvation with perfect clarity, we are all human with our human abilities and words, that limit the way we can talk about something so vast and eternal as salvation.
responding to Herbert: God's wrath mention in mentioned Rom 5 and in your post, is interesting b/c we tend to only hear about God's wrath being appeased with Christ's death? I would like to hear more about how it is appeased?
It is misapplication to doctrines that have steered people wrong and will continue to do so. David Koresh attended Andrews and then messed around with the city od David people and began his own cult because he mixed doctrines. It is a slippery slope as I am learning when it comes to doctrines.
Daniel you are such a deep thinker, thanks for you compact what you read for us. The important and close relation between Justification and Sanctification. And the role of Jesus Christ in that event and your comments and understanding on it.
Thanks for your analyzing first five Chapters of Romans. I tried to understand righteous by faith clearly in that book (That is why I read whole book of Romans before the class started.) and I also read several times in English and Korean to understand it more clearly. But still the book of Romans is vague to me. Maybe Paul's writing is so delicate and deep that is why it's hard to understand. If you have any good suggestion to understand the book better, please let me know.
Hey Myoung, You got the right and the most important point, that is Christ is the center of our Salvation. I really like that. Especially I highly respect and agree your "Recovery model" and it makes sense. And I can feel that you tried to explain it with your experience (I think your example is a bit awkward. But I can understand what you want to say^^) Like we discussed in the class, models can be named in variety of ways what the person emphasis on the most.
Ellen White's refusal to be pushed to either side of the debate on holiness in salvation is pretty amazing! If even I find myself pushing one view to the exclusion of all others, it's a pretty good indication that I've crossed that line...
Perhaps it's because of my sensitivity, okay not all the time but sometimes because of my sensitivity, I tend to drawn more towards blogs like yours that are REAL and HONEST! Yes....academics have their place but for me they are at number 3 or 4 on my most important concept scale. You've touched my heart with your honest search and struggle in trying to understand this concept of HOPE that you mentioned. Honestly, who understands these things completely? Outside of Divinity? So I want to encourage you to continue on struggling and continue on learning about Hope and per chance God has already given you some insights into this element that perhaps our class would be wise to learn from...keep us updated on your journey.
In response to Kessia, I really appreciated your willingness to be open. I always admire when someone is willing to be vulnerable and share their struggles. We're in this together.
I also appreciated the topic of your comment. I've been thinking as well lately on this. It's not just that we commit sin. We are sin. We don't only possess fleshy characters. We are sinful people through and through. Thank goodness we have a Saviour! Thanks for your observations.
In response to Massiel,(welcome to the seminary!) Thanks for the clear way you unpacked your thoughts in your blog. It was insightful the way you noticed that Ellen White had to grow in her theological understandings of salvation. Most people do not realize that our Adventist heritage has been at times a messy process whereby God's people had to learn as they went and trust that he will lead us to a clearer understanding of His word and will. Good observation!
I found your first blog about Salvation via the article written by Angel Rodriquez throth with humor and relevancy. I concur with you on many thoughts you brought up and in particular, the idea of Christ being the Ultimate center of all our theologizing and modelizing. I am sorry about your misfortune in vehicle maintenance. This happens to me too, more than I’d admit to enjoying. Car windows are no exception. However, I saw your point clearly, or at least what I thought you we’re intending to expound in broad strokes. We are deeply and thoroughly soaked to the bone in sin aren’t we?; completely helpless and desperately empty of any goodness apart from our Loving Heavenly Father’s provision through our Saviour and Lord Jesus Christ. We are broken, in more ways than at times we’d like to admit. We are quick to point the finger to a fellow Seminarian or family member who might be struggling with pornography or stealing, or lying, or maybe even gambling to the unwise neglect of the TREE in our own eye….thank GOD for His Amazing LOVE and foreknowledge and all that we today in class, and Paul discusses and or discussed in Romans 8. I commend you Myoung for your thoughts and for deanthropomorphising what could otherwise have possibly been seen as mere philosophical and religious jargon. Thanks again. Fa’asoa
In response to Brandon, Brandon, good summation of your BRI readings. Way to tackle several key theological ideas and explain your position easily. I really need things broken down for me and I feel you did that. I also liked the way you realized what may be an untimely bible study for a new believer. You keep first things first. It's sounds like you're a veteran bro.
Robert, Thanks for your willingness to be open with your posting. Your post encouraged me. I always appreciate it when someone shares from a personal perspective. Also I thought it was really creative the way you word-searched the connection between hope and glorification and the idea of the second coming. Way to think outside the box.
Two things. First, I appreciated your openness and your depth of thought. Second, I like your writing style. I know that isn't necessarily the point of this exercise, but it was enjoyable to read!
Quigley Morris the articles are very intresting to read, and one can learn as much as the class room. Hebert introduced some new model of salvation that i feel impress with, he highlight peace, Grace, hope and love. when each is look at we can fine new areas to think about in relation to salvation.my first point will be on grace; grace will cover us if we make the choice to receive grace from God. many people think that they can do what ever they want and they will receive grace from god. they will not face the punishment that is set for thoes who do not accept his grace. i think the gratest is Love if we love as Christ love us then we will promote the quality that God expect of us. love is the essent of this gosepl and it is love that take Jesus to the cross and it is that same love that is planted in our hearts that will give us the desire to love and serve him and enjoy the grace that he alone offers. Jason was also intresting on saving the human race. the death of Christ will not save the human race, but it will give the human race the privelage to be save. that brings the choice factor into play. every one of us have a choice to make and that choice will depend who is our master.its only after the choice is made can our sins be forgiven, and we walk in newest of life angain this is a nother word that could mean salvation.
I am responding to Austin's comments from 06-17-09. I totally agreed with your comments about Romans 5 and the beginning of Rom 6. I think that Paul is trying to state very strongly and very clearly the balance that exists in the concept of salvation. That Christ did die for sinners, but not so that they could remain sinners.
I am responding to Robert's comments from 06-17-09. I really appreciated your comments about hope. It is so interesting to see how those who seem to be going through the most difficult times seems to have so much hope. I think that applies to the disciples as well. As they sat confused at the hour of Christ's trial, Jesus gave them something that would be a sticking point for them in the dark times ahead. I sincerely pray that you will find yourself growing in hope as the class continues! :-)
Thank you Quigley for your precise research about Justification with simple terms help us to understand the Big term justification. It is very true that only Christ's "atonement alone that made justification possible and set man(us) free".
In response to Jason Hines, Thanks Jason for your reflection. I think it truly is a mystery for us humans to fully understand the concept of predestination. I do really like the way you ask back, “If God has predestined us to be free, then how are we really free?” It is like God not giving the tree of knowledge of good and evil and saying, “Adam, Eve! You can do anything you want!” But it is not freedom because your choice of rebellion is eliminated from the beginning.
In response to Bryant Herbert, Hi Bryan! Same for me, too. I was only thinking of soccer and basketball during that age. And I still think a lot about sports, too! Hahaha.. Yes, I too think that salvation is a process. I am glad that God sent Jesus to save us, and I am also glad that He sent the Holy Spirit to work in us to mold us and to make us better people to be in God’s Kingdom!
Herbert Oliphant In response to john schumba's comment re doctrines I agree that doctrines are not infallible however i would say they are for the most part human interpretations rather than statements. with emphasis on "for the most part" because some doctrines are basically formulated from "Divine Imperatives"example fundamental beliefs #19 that deals with the decalogue/laws.These in my opinion are not mere "human formulations or interpretation of a personal understanding of the Biblical truths".I believe God has a direct input in their formulation despite controversies or disagreements with some of them(doctrines)hence they are divinely endorsed or inspired and can be attributed to God rather than men.
Herbert Oliphant In response to Bryant Herbert's comment re misapplication of doctrines that lead people in the wrong.I agree whole heartedly. My approach over the years...if one doesn't agree with a doctrine follow standard procedures and leave the church lecturn out of his/her disagreements, utilize prayer ,tolerance and careful bible studies.
I feel you on laziness being a sin. Sometimes we get caught with ourselves and our own salvation that we forget about others. But I that I can do more because I always feel that I can do more to reach people in the community and family members that are not into God. Kessia you are a bubble of joy!
Editing from my last comment: (I was rushing, lol) I feel you on laziness being a sin. Sometimes we (myself) get caught up with ourselves and our own salvation that we forget about others, not what Christ intended. But I personally feel that I can do more to reach people in the community and family members that are not into God. Kessia, don't stress, you are a bubble of joy!
Austin, I agree that sometimes we do get caught up with being a "particular" people, and stressing the Sabbath and 2nd Advent. It's not like it's going to be only Adventist in heaven? I had a professor say that more Adventist will be lost because they didn't accept the invitation. I pray that we can stop focusing on having the "truth", and focus on preaching the gospel, which is Jesus Christ.
On Jason's blog: I have also wondered the same questions that you have presented. If God knows all the choices we are going to make in the future, is that really freedom to us? And why would God know everything and then set the world in motion? It seems illogical to me. It's like, if I'm reading an intense thriller book, but someone tells me the final outcome of the book before I finish, then I'll just set the book down, or if I haven't started yet, then I won't even begin. Why would God create the world if he knew before hand that we would indeed sin? My own answer to my own madness is that God is love, and love is more powerful than knowing the ending of a book. Because God loves us so much, more than we can comprehend, God chooses to experience life with us, along side us, as our friend and companion. What a great friend we have in Jesus!
On Bong Hun's blog: Charles, your comments on divine initiative is really important for me to contemplate the divine plan that was set before the creation of the world. This helps me to realize that God's salvation plan was started from the beginning. We as humans had no part in its plan or concept. Therefore, we are weak and helpless when it comes to understanding the intricate parts of God's divine plan. It was God's initiative and not man's. It started with God and it will end with God and we are smack right in the middle!
RE: Herbert Oliphant // Judgment in John 12:31-33, 16:11
When I first read through your blog posting, I think I misunderstood it to be saying that all judgment (and final judgment) of God took place at the cross. That would do away with the role of individual choice and of the investigative judgment, of course. After re-reading it and finding the article that you were referring to, I now understand what you mean and I agree--that is a cool concept! As Christians, we really struggle with balancing the "now" and the "not yet" aspects of eschatology, including the judgment. Thankfully, as you pointed out, in the doctrine of the sanctuary Adventist Christians have a way of understanding this that bridges the gap between the judgment at the cross and the final judgment. Pretty amazing stuff!
I think you've hit it right on the mark, Dennis. At the cross we see an attractive manifestation of divine love AND we see God in fact taking the penalty of sin upon Himself. It is in recognizing both of these truths (plus many more) that we find the complete truth about salvation. And praise the Lord!--Ellen White was possibly the most balanced theologian, and we get the privilege of learning from her.
It is good to be looking for the practical implications of these deep thoughts on the subject of salvation. My experience has convinced me that often people hold to one view or another precisely because of the practical considerations, not just because they were convinced in their minds that it was the right way. And theology (even the theoretical part) is immensely practical, so it's great to be looking for connections between classroom and real life. And I'm glad that you found at least the one connection that you were looking for :)
i am very impress with Herbert concern on the Justification and foreknowledge as he remember in comprison to what he was though in his early years. i guest this class is turning out to be an eye opener to all of us. while i grew up in the church and believed that i understand these simply things like you i am now seeing the wider picture with more grace. to understand foreknowledge and how God uses what is available to him to reach us is beyond the simple things i believe. the cross is free and it is god's will that all should come to repentance but it is still our will and desire. Bong Hun see youth ministry in his salvation moudle, his passon is to minister to young people i feel he did a great job with his desire to have salvation presented to the youth. it is so true that we are loosing our young people and if we can get a way to reach them with the salvation moudle in a way that they can relate to i think we will all mak e a positive different in young people's life. i do not think that we have fail or we are loosing,what i do know we can do better. all we need is a little more love and a minute a day one on one with this salvation message and we will see the difference.
Glorification is thus concerns the final events in the salvation of the true believers that began in eternity past with god’s elective decision. It is the fitting conclusion to our spiritual journey in which God’s glory is becoming progressively revealed. This involves the resurrection of the saints, transformed bodies in reunion with their spirits, vindicated before the judgment seat of Christ and entering into the place of perfect holiness meant for perfect people. This great event will occur at Christ second coming in glory. In this glorified state the sorrows of the old order would be gone forever, and sin abolished, death mourning, crying and pain will be no more. Ramm commented “the New Jerusalem is the home of the redeemed, in which city the triune God lives in unbroken communion with the redeemed. The entire description is one of glory. Glorified saints live in a glorious city in glorious existence surrounded by the new cosmos”. He continues that the city is the eternal home of man and the eternal tabernacle of God. It is glorified environment and glorified society which correspond to the glorified soul and a glorified body of the redeemed.
I agree with you that we tend to make salvation a more difficult thing than it is. Jesus' yoke is easy, and His burden is light. We must always remember that, and keep Christ before us all the time. It is all too easy to get caught up in theologizing and forget to open the door when He knocks.
On another note, if you decide that you want to freely share the information you have been working on (the presentation you made in class), I would be interested. I think there is a lot of potential there to help people "get" it.
(My apologies for the double post. I accidentally put this in the assignments section first)
I completely agree with you in that many of the articles I was assigned to read in the years past are much more interesting to me now. I find the website containing all the BRI articles incredibly interesting now. Just today I found myself reading a long article by Richard Davidson addressing the Catholic Church on the issue of Biblical hermeneutics. It wasn't part of any assignment...I just found it interesting. Five years ago there is no way I would have read that article on my own time.
It is a good reminder to us SDA's to understand what remnant means. It would be helpful to review ourselves in the mirror and apply the truths about God's remnant to us as a people and a church. Let us be honest for our future lies in God's hands and not our labels. Thank you for your comments on this topic.
Thank you for expanding on the Biblical concept of calling. Especially for folks like me who have not yet had Greek, it is helpful to see the Biblical context in which calling is used by God and applied to humanity's salvation. This helps my understanding in God's initiative in saving me. Also, I thought of calling and salvation in the context of Adam and Eve, before and after their sin. God walked and talked directly with Adam and Eve; what must have that been like? But after sin, Adam and Eve heard the sound of the Lord in the trees of the garden and hid. Then God called them out. Call me Lord, for I have sinned!
This is in response to Quigley's comment from 06-24-09. Quigley thanks for such an insightful comment. I agree that the word remnant has been used in the past as a word of elevated status and division from other denominations. While I am unsettled on the remnant doctrine, I am sure of this, that the definition of the word as it has been used in my personal experience needs to change. I also agree with you about our public perception. I think it would be much harder to attract people if we make ourselves unfriendly by offending people. There is a way to disagree without being disagreeable.
This is in response to Kessia Reyne's comment from 06-24-09. Thanks Kessia for a really insightful statement on calling. I never realized that calling itself is used mostly as a term of salvation. Furthermore, I thought it was compelling that the call from God produces a call in us as well.
Thanks Kessia for your thoughts on Calling in relation with Salvation. I agree what you said in your blog box, “God’s call in the New Testament is one extended for salvation”. Throughout reading yours, something came out my mind is our response is also part of fulfill His salvation. I was amazed your eagerness to searching for the truth. And I am glad that you are familiar and use good tools like TDNT and Greek lexicon.
Thank you Brother Hines, you deal with very important topic I also struggled with so many years. I still remember when I was 11 or 12, I questioned if God knows everything why did He let Adam and Eve sinned? And why their mistake suffers us, too? If God knows He will send His Son to save us and redeem this world again, maybe it is better not to create human being. This is young born Adventist boy’s struggle for several years. I’m very glad we struggle and try to find better understanding together for Him and His salvation in this class.
In response to Bong Hun Hong, Hey Hyung, I really enjoy what you are writing. When you think of the book of Romans, first thing that pops up is “difficult” But I like the way you put it as a Gospel. That word makes it easier for me to understand. I kinda feel the way you do as I read Romans myself. I also like your point that Paul had to use their difficult concept and language in order to explain salvation. I like simplicity so I myself like to understand salvation in a simpler sense, yet I would need to equip myself in order to explain it to others.
In response to Robert Carlson, Hey Robert, I really enjoyed what you wrote. I like what you said about the Marys and the Marthas in the church. I had never thought of it that way. I also like what you said about not me changing but it is Jesus who changes me. All I have to do is be in Jesus. That is powerful.
Jason, I too feel that people try force they way of life during a person's Christian walk. It's our job to introduce to God and Jesus and then let the Holy Spirit do the rest. Sometimes the legalism in our religion takes over in our "witnessing" and actually pushes people away. I've seen it first hand and it plagues us as a church.
Herbert, I appreciated your feedback on the investigative judgment. This is a topic that many Adventists do not address today and I think it is an important topic. I also think it is important as well to be aware of the arguments anti-Ellen White people use, which you do.
Bryant, I appreciated your blog first because you came from a personal perspective which I always appreciate because it shows authenticity and sincerity. Also I appreciated it because it was totally Christ-centered. The central idea was indeed the gospel.
Kess, Thanks for you blog. It was interesting how you went in depth into the Greek to explain your point about the "called ones". It was very scholarly. I enjoyed reading it.
Bryant, Thanks for your input in your blog bro. You're right. There are a lot of topics today that are being swept under the rug. People in today's church need to hear these issues addressed. If we do not address them then the media and the world will address them.
I t think we will not understand Salvation, righteousness, etc. until we get to heaven. We are sinful beings and we can not fully understand something divine as sinful creatures.
Thank you for your honesty and I am glad for your wrestling with Paul’s explanation of the law. I think your time to wrestle with this issue is not meaningless. It will help you to seek for the truth more. To clearly understand Paul and especially his way of writings, I personally believe you need holistic understanding for the Jewish culture, his way of writing, the recipients, and so forth. Sometimes his writings sound like contract each other, but if you more deep into his writings with balanced and holistic understanding you can see the beauty of how contradiction can make harmony.
Thank you Dennis for clarifying what is justification, sanctification, and glorification and shared the tension between “Already” and “Not Yet” in the section you mentioned about glorification. I think these big words are key elements of Salvation.
In response to Bong Hun Hong thoughts on Salvation... Thanks for verbalizing you struggle. I agree humans have a tendency to make things way to complicated. I think we can get lost in all of the models and verbage of the topic of salvation and miss the whole point of it all. On the other hand I think the theme of salvation, because of its origination in the divine mind, is an exhaustless topic. All our models and theological discussion hints at its depth and richness. Personally, I believe there is a place for probing its depths, but we must always keep its simple essence foremost in our minds and experience.
Comment on Massiel Davila posting. . . I enjoyed your posting on EGW and Salvation. I just wanted to mention that although our situation to day is unlike hers like you said because we have the benefit of more than a hundred years of study and debate, our situation is still much the same in the each of us must personally digest the information in an experiential way in our own time much the same way Ellen White did. We might have more information now, but we must all learn it for ourselves.
I found your post especially refreshing. In constantly find myself coming face to face with the kind of character I would have if I completely removed myself from the will of God, and more than any other sin, that is the one I came face to face with. If I were to remove myself from the will that God has for me, the momentum of my life would come to a complete standstill. There would be nothing edifying me, or inspiring me to move forward. I would be happy to live a complacent easy life; I think that’s what the devil indeed wants for us. Men and women who have let laziness rule their lives so they are not moving towards a more Christ like character. When we don’t take laziness, or it’s counterparts, procrastination & apathy seriously, we’ve just sleepily wandered away from the way of salvation. A text I always take courage in is 2 Timothy 1:7, “For God did not give us a spirit of timidity, but a spirit of power, of love and of self-discipline.”
In response to Fa’asoa M. Fa’asoa – “Against Elder Brown.”
I just wanted to commend your lively writing style. It is true indeed that we need to continually see if there is an “Elder Brown” in each of us, lest we get so comfortable in our views that we’ve gotten off track and have stopped learning.
In response to Jason's comment "I think it would be much harder to attract people if we make ourselves unfriendly by offending people. There is a way to disagree without being disagreeable".I agree that the gospel truth must be pesented with tact,however,some people will always be offended and that still should not deter the gospel worker.
Fa’asoa Michael Fa’asoa In response to: Massiel Davila, on “The Delicious Struggle of Predestination”
I thought you wove your thoughts and concerns together very well. Appreciate your honesty in sharing a concern, believe it or not that is often a common denominator across collegiate lines, though not limited to. (I so vividly remember having no words, blushing and then sheepishly saying, “you know, I really don’t know.”) Unwittingly perhaps, though frightening-you managed to share what so many sincere Christians fear, and that is to admitting that our finite understanding and comprehension of things eternal is indeed limited…….so limited in fact that when we come to a new discovery in the scope of the eternal, we often feel as though we have arrived-and yet in that concept we wade as though eternal discoveries limit themselves to one’s box. May this statement of yours, “If we came to have absolute answers for everything related to God, we’d be missing out in so much of the wonder of growing, and diving into study because we just want to understand it a little more…” be to us all, a beacon of wonder about the eternals to which we may ever strive to understand throughout the ceaseless ages and yet never come to the place where we feel or think that we have finally comprehended the eternal, but rather that we have come to know the limitless and universally infiniteness of the GOD we have come to know and understand, serve and LOVE! Thank you Massiel
Fa’asoa Michael Fa’asoa In response to: Herbert Oliphant in responding to Jason’s comment…… I respectfully disagree with your reaction to Jason’s thoughts my friend. Too often in my experience, not that my experience should be the measuring stick on the issue addressed necessarily, the “Gospel Worker” as you stated, come to the vineyard of GOD not only with presuppositions and a demeanor unlike that of Christ in their disagreeableness, to which “tact” is understood to mean “don’t dilute the message…don’t water it down…tell it like it is…” however painful and un thoughtful it may have come across to the receiver…too often in the attitude that I have knowledge that you (the receiver) know nothing about and you really want me to share it with you….so I will…however violatile it may have come across the grain of their freedom of choice…and yet the worker continues to press on until his/her goal is met. Don’t get me wrong, I think that there is a sense in which the “Gospel Worker” should carefully and wisely press forward in sharing the Good News with people but prayerfully contexualizing his/her mission to fit the situation. Then when he/she has done all that is/was possible in their power to not be offensive and yet still offended, then leave, in my opinion, the situation to God to work it out for that particular individual’s salvation….whatever that may mean.
Reflection PTH June 30, 2009 In my study of faith I was overwhelmed to understanding how the concept of biblical faith is so broad and deep. Most import is the understanding of faith is not only an attribute of God’s character, but also the characteristic of his law. As an Adventist I know that the law is the transcript of God’s character. Studying the nature of faith helped me appreciate more deeply the aspect of God in relation to His Law. This reality came through when I looked at Abraham’s faith in God. When the Bible says in Gen 15: 6 that Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness. The term ‘believe’ is aman in Hebrew and pistei in Greek). This same term is related to the law/testimony (Torah or instructions) of God in Ps 19:7-8): God’s Law (the Torah) is said to be sure (Hebrew ‘aman’ and Greek ‘pistei in LXX) making the wise simple.” When one considers the context of Ps 19 as it focuses on the glory and handwork of God (Ps 19:1) there seems to be a relationship between faith and the law in the sense that the law is sure just like faith is sure: “the assurance of things hoped for,” (Heb 11:1).
On the other hand, Ps 19 speaks of the firmament as declaring the handwork of God. The handwork of God is the manifestation of the power of God that created the stars. It is known that the stars, billions of galaxies, like our sun are governed by natural laws and are faithfully moving in the heavens. What interests me is the movement of the planets, much more the earth as it rotates on its axis bringing sunrise and sunsets, night and day, and our seasons. All this is the manifestation of the mercies of God that are new every morning. Thus the biblical teaching that the glory of God and his handwork in his creation (Ps 19) is not only the reflection of his outward splendor, but also a manifestation of His excellence, firmness, faithfulness and surety.
Therefore, in the natural laws we may see the character of God that relates to His faithfulness and security revealed. The power of God is hidden and illustratively revealed when atoms are split, for example in the atom bomb. The laws of nature that keep the atoms together are faithful in keeping the atoms together: this too is the reflection faithfulness of God. As we anticipate glorification, we can trust—believe in God much more because His faithfulness is as sure as His Laws.
Food for thought: Interesting enough Ellen White equates the laws of nature with the law of God when she says: “It was the law of nature, therefore the law of God, that brain, nerve, and muscle, should be in active motion” (Health Reformer, May 1, 1873, par 1):” “The law of Nature is the law of God; and the penalty of its transgression is visited alike upon men and women” (Health Reformer, July 1, 17878, par 4).
How faithful are we in keeping the laws of health?
I too have recently been reminded that Jesus promised never to leave us nor forsake us. It is an easy trap to misread what we have been given concerning the close of probation and interpret it as a time when God abandons us. Fortunately, this will never be the case! Nothing can separate us from His love!
Your essay about assurance of salvation, and your conclusions about the hope we have in Christ and His second coming were of great encouragement to me! Thanks!
I'm commmenting on Brandon's post from 06-29. Interesting survey Brandon. I too believe that Hanna's hypothesis is correct, although I think the landscape is changing. But also, part of it may be the whole idea of theory vs. practice, in the sense that when you have an intellectual discussion with people they get it, but then they either disseminate that same information incorrectly or live their lives in a way that denies their intellectual understanding.
I am responding to Robert's comment from 07-01. I agree Robert with everything you said. Having been trained as a lawyer, we were taught (colloquially) that the answer to every question is, "it depends." While that does not map perfectly onto religious discussions, it has taught be to openminded in my thinking and realize that the answer usual is not either-or but somewhere in the middle.
But I think the other reason why the Bible seems to speak from one side or another is because of context. Because the Bible writers are always speaking to a particular audience, it has always seemed to me that the writer said what the audience needed to hear, not necesarily what they already knew. So if the audience already knows that God is just, then what they need to hear is "God is merciful," and vice versa. But that doesn't mean that the particular audience didn't know the other side - it is possible that the author said what they said distinctly because the people being written to already knew the other side. That's why it is important for us to consider the whole of the word of God in order to gain the best understanding for ourselves.
On Jason's Blog I also have thought a lot about monergy and synergy this past week. We live in a society that pushes us to control and act in order to get results and recognition. It is only the lazy ones that get left behind with nothing. This mentality drives Christians to work for something and expect to place value on our work. But divine works of salvation cannot be categorized by falliable human words. I have been blessed by learning about the Hebrew way of thought in approaching God by Dr. Doukhan's class. The Hebrews approached God with awe and reverence for his holiness and power. There was nothing they could say or do in the presence of God. If today's Christian could come before God as his creation, then we would be humbled and silent. All we can do is receive.
On Austin's Blog I agree with your comments on the verse Romans 8:28. I don't think Christians should take certain Bible verses and use them to try to console human pain and crisis. God works in all things. Is this something that we cannot accept? Or is this something that we don't want to accept? I don't think we should say "let go and let God," but rather, God works and let's observe and receive. I also agree that we can teach a more holistic approach to God's word to church members.
Robert, thank you for that post! I think it brought together for me what had been floating around my mind, but unarticulated. I loved the phrase of your undergrad professor: "The answer is yes." I have the feeling that that will remain with me a long time.
Also, your reflection on the Bible writer's appearance of one-sided thinking was very helpful to me. Thank you!
I like that in your post you focused on the great price paid by Christ for our ransom, instead of getting caught up in that old debate about the receptor of the price. (Also, it was hilarious that you referenced Austin Powers... hahahaha!)
"I have the ability to help God out." Seems that way sometimes, doesn't it? Things seem to be going pretty well in life, internally and externally, and I get to thinking, "Yeah, I got this." Then the whole synergy thing has turned into more of a Kessia Reyne Show. Lame.
Somehow, though, God uses the awfulness of sin to turn us around and remind us that we don't have the ability to help Him out. Not even a little bit.
In response to Daniel Yim, Hey Daniel, thanks for your reflection, I really enjoyed it. Well, same for me, I get to think of what happens in movies when it comes to the word ransom. I remember a movie titled ‘Ransom’ starred by Mel Gibson. I like your point where you say it is Christ is the initiator of our souls. This tells me how great the authority of God is. I also like the point where it wasn’t God’s response toward Satan. That tells me how much God had already loved us even from way back, and He would step up for us no matter what happens.
In response to Jason Hines, Thanks Jason, I enjoyed your reflection. I like where you point out that the work we have to do is the work that only we can do. In other words it is saying that there is not much(or even nothing) we can do unless it is for Jesus. And yes, it is so hard to overcome our sinful nature and our own tendencies, which tells me that we have to strongly depend on Christ only to strengthen us and empower us.
"Is it possible that I have been more concerned with becoming like Christ than knowing Jesus?" As I read your post, that question stopped me dead in my tracks. It's true, how often do we think we've got our heads on straight and are walking in the right direction and doing the right thing, but we've got it all wrong. Another line in your blog that impressed me was, "Would it enough for me to just be with Him, even if I come out of the experience looking more like a disciple and less like a saint?" Think about the disciples, they needed to stop talking, and listen and watch a little more. I am so guilty of the same thing. Before I rush headlong into my idea of the right thing, if I would just stop, listen and watch Jesus' example, the change would be deeper the behavior. We can't watch somebody like Jesus, without any kind of agenda, and somehow not be transformed. Maybe part of the learning, is learning just how to sit down and listen.
I appreciated the reminder that the goal of our lives, and the bridge opened up by the Cross, is for us to live more in harmony with our Creator. It got me thinking, what would that look like. How would our lives be like if they were more in harmony with our Creator, or even with how we were originally created to be. The character flaws that we would strive to work through, and the drama of life that would loose it's importance because our eyes are looking forward, looking upward, as we are being changed inward.
Massiel's recent comment made me go back and find the post she was commenting on and wow! I'm sure glad I did. Robert, your post was really thought-provoking! It is an issue that I've thought about before, but never in those terms. I think that I really, really needed to hear it that way right now.
in his book "The Pursuit of Holiness" author Jerry Bridges briefly makes a point about the language we use and it has stuck with me for years. He says that there's a subtle but important difference between a focus on "victory" and a emphasis on "obedience." Here are his words: "Our first problem is that our attitude toward sin is more self-centered than God-centered. We are more concerned about our own 'victory' over sin than we are about the fact that our sins grieve the heart of God. We cannot tolerate failure in our struggle with sin chiefly because we are success-oriented, not because we know it is offensive to God. . . . God wants us to walk in obedience--not victory. Obedience is oriented toward God; victory is oriented toward self. . . . This is not to say God doesn't want us to experience victory, but rather to emphasize that victory is a byproduct of obedience. As we concentrate on living an obedient, holy life, we will certainly experience the joy of victory over sin."
Comments on Bong Hun Hong’s 6/12/2009 11:42 AM I appreciate for your thoughtful insight. I think of the reason that why there are so many salvation models as well. And I totally agree that we should have our personal experience to have right understanding. However, even though many salvation models look alike complicated, the issue would be that whether can we saved by Jesus’ sacrifice or not. And I believe that if we careful enough and study from this perspective, we can find the truth.
Comments on Myoung Kwon 6/12/2009 2:33 PM Myoung! That illustration on the window was very impressive. So, the point is, something crucial was lost and it needs to be replaced. It’s very simple truth. But, for people to understand this, the most important thing to be emphasized would be letting them see the realness of the corruption. Once they see the brokeness and seriousness, they will surely feel the need of something to be happened. So, I think that is our work.
Comments on Kessia Reyne Bennett 6/14/2009 12:50 PM Kessia! I think so too. Our understanding of sin is so shallow. Reading your comment, I feel like I’m reading Romans. How we can have right understanding of sin and explain to the people out there and tell them to get away from it would be our work which is very serious and important.
Comments on Kessia Reyne Bennett 6/14/2009 12:50 PM I think we need to have a guilt definitely. However, I think of guilt as 2 kinds. Guilt is a feeling that comes out when we see the sin of ourselves. There is nothing wrong with it. But the problem is whether the guilt kills myself or saves myself. And I think we have to be very careful with the guilt that kills people.
Comments on Bong Hun Hong 6/19/2009 4:21 PM Initiative! I like the concept for it shows the power and richness of God. No one can reach out to the fallen except God for he is powerful and rich. Can man save others? No, because he/she doesn’t have power to save even though he/she wants to. Christ was initiative for he has power and riches.
Comments on Daniel Yim 6/21/2009 1:00 AM Salvation is definitely a process by which we come to Christ, are made whole in Christ, and will be eternally redeemed through Christ. I appreciate for Daniel’s holistic understanding on salvation. He didn’t say that we’ll have salvation when we come to Christ. It’s very important to have this kind of holistic view on salvation.
Comments on Daniel Yim 6/21/2009 1:00 AM I loved what Daniel said. What I understood was that if I don’t experience salvation today, I wo’t be able to have salvation tommorow. And Jesus is able to give us the assurance today that he has carried us and carrying us and will carry us.
Comments on Bong Hun Hong 6/28/2009 9:29 AM That’s right. We will study doctrine of salvation in heaven for it is beyond our imagination. But, at the same time, while it is a great mystery and wonder, God has promised that He’s going to teach us so we can simply understand and accept the plan of salvation. I just want to simply wait for Holy spirit to teach me.
Comments on Brandon Koleda 6/29/2009 9:06 PM Is it because God takes the possibility away or because his creations doesn’t choose to sin? Brandon! I think that’s an interesting qustion. In my opinion, I think it’s both of them.
there is a very good comment left by some anonymous person. to me it just explain some of my own feeling. the person listed five points to clear his thinking, and i want to run through them (1) there is peace with God. when we are in touch with God we feel good of who we are not because of who we are been able to be come but what Christ have made of us through the power of the gospel. (2)God's grace is available to all who wants, all we have to do is to aske him to help us choose the right.(3)hope is a motivator because if there is no home then we are vaunarable to who we are. (4) and all this is made possible through the death of Christ. (5) God then open his cheque book and give each a cheque of the same value and that is salvation. what a promise. John is in touch with a more doctrinal matter. we are all in the process of understanding who God is and how he works. so we should show tolerance in dealing with other religous thinking on the matter of salvation i just wonder if all 33 thousand christians religions will one day get it right on one matter. talk about hope.
I totally agree with you on your comments in regards to freedom. We aren't really comfortable with it sometimes, we'd rather have less freedom and more acceptable behavior. I don't want to sound scandalous or anything, but maybe we've put more restrictions on ourselves than God ever had in mind for us to have. He's interested in us having more life, more joy, more reconciliation and peace. The only thing he wants for us to experience less of is sin and its consequences, and the best way for us to start doing that, is using the freedom we have to choose Him and spend more time with Him.
I appreciated your comment, I was impressed by your statement, "God provides this way freely and without coercion which requires both God and man to work together." The idea that God would deem to walk with us, doing what only he can do, but not forcing us along is incredible. It's all to our benefit, and He still stoops down to our language and makes possible so that we can keep up with him...well for a part of the way at least...
Myoung Kwon 6/19/09 You stated that you think that the concept of predestination is truly a mystery. I believe that not everyone can be correct and that maybe no one is. I have been looking at Romans 8:29, 30 for some time. If we were to accept scholars based on credentials to tell us what it means, I would presume that we would need to look to John Calvin for his thoughts. Since most of the people on this thread would not probably follow him, how will we determine who to follow or turn to? I have decided to follow only the Holy Spirit. How do I do that? I have developed a ‘model’ for my study. I read in context. I accept the message rather than just words. I ask myself what I would like the message to be. I develop a picture in my mind of what I have received. If that is not in conflict with the rest of my belief system and no one will be harmed if I am wrong, I accept what I get. When I apply this to Romans 8 this is what I end up with: He who he did foreknow, from the foundation of the world, He did predestine to be treated as the firstborn, or to have it all. If we believe that he foreknew us, this would apply to us, if not, then not. From the foundation of the world, He did predestine us to be treated as the firstborn. Predestine being a verb means that he must have performed a specific act at the foundation of the world. When – at the foundation of the world! Geneses 1 says: In the beginning God created the whole universe including this earth (That is the way I see it); maybe a billion years ago; a long time. At that point He looked down over the ceaseless ages of the universe and saw you and me. He thought: They are going to need a lot of laws in place in order to overcome the obstacles they are going to encounter, while they are pursuing the dreams I am going to place in their hearts. So right then he put in place every law that we would ever need to do or get anything that we would ever want, and in doing that he predestined us to have it all (the birthright of the firstborn). This is one of the most important of what I call Bible Doctrines that I have found in the Bible. I don’t know if I have discovered the mystery, but this is what I came up with. If you think I have gotten it wrong, please help me find something better.
Max Man, It was nice to hear from you Kwon. The firstborn concept was good, but have you ever thought of the firstborn in relation to Christ the first born of God: In Hebrews, God brought Jesus as the firstborn into the world and asks the angels to worship Him (Heb 1:6). In Col 1: 18 and Rev 1:5, Christ is said to be the first born from the dead. Think of the children of Israel who were asked to give their firstborn children to God, literary to sanctify them as belonging to God. (Even the firstborn of animals and the first grains to ripen for harvest belonged to God). Could it be possible that Jesus is our firstborn due to the fact He was born of a woman, in order to bring us salvation, Mat 1:21; John 17:18, through our belief in Him and accepting Him, we have the right to become children of God; that is we are saved or justified by his blood (John 1:12-13)? It was also interesting to hear of the law, if I interpret you right, that God put in place for humanity because He saw that we would need it in order “to get anything that we would ever want.” What was challenging the most to me was to read that humans were “going to need a lot of laws in place in order to overcome the obstacles they are going to encounter, while they are pursuing the dreams I am going to place in their hearts.” If the law was given to overcome challenges, how come Adam and Eve sinned by breaking the law? The fact that they sinned implies to me that the law did not help them meet their challenges and realize their dreams. It seems to me that the challenge humanity—Adam and Eve—faced was in keeping the law more than to use the law to overcome challenges. Your discussion Kwon was good food for thought.
I enjoyed your thoughts on universal justification. I agree that universal legal justification could still be an appropriate term if redefined. After all Christ's death did universally justify everyone in the sense that it made provision for everyone's justification, almost like money in a bank account somewhere. The important point as you stated is that this justification is imputed on an individual basis as a result of personal faith. Thanks for your thoughts!
Thanks for your thoughts on hope. I believe what you might be struggling with is the tension between knowing something intellectually in your head and feeling it in your heart. I have to believe you have hope of some kind, even if it is only intellectually, or else you could not do what you do (be a Christian and train for the pastoral ministry). I am with you though in the fact that I am not driven by hope the way the apostle Paul seemed to be. I desire that intensity of hope also. Thanks again for you blog!
in response to Myoung Kwon blog posting . . . I appreciated your thoughts on the article by Angel Rodriquez (spelling ?) I especially liked your illustration of your broken car window. I connected with it in a special way because i too drive a used car that needs work from time to time. And it sure can get expensive. Obviously, no illustration tells the whole picture, but in a simple way it portrays the highlights of the plan of salvation. I also appreciated you emphasis on salvation being received by each individual's personal choice. People are not saved regardless of how they respond to the gift of Christ. Anyway, thanks again for your thoughts!
In response to Kessia Reyne blog assignment. Your blog has been the most stimulating blog I have read so far. You touch on some incredible points like both our minimizing of sin and our laziness toward it. these days it seems a person is labeled a legalist if they even mention the idea of breaking through the Christian status quo to a place of higher spiritual advancement. I think you said it best when you suggested that as Christians we are lazy toward sin. I sounds like you had a pretty frustrating experience with a group of friends. I want to encourage you to keep pressing on keeping the goal of maturity in Christ at the forefront of everything you have to do this next semester. And know that there are others with similar feeling to yours.
This post is a response to Robert Carlson’s post regarding hope. Robert, I appreciated your openness and honesty in regards to your struggle with the understanding of hope and how it plays out in your life. I agree with you that faith and love are two elements that we more than likely experience on a more frequent basis, but I feel somewhat at odds with your statement saying that the realness of hope is hard to know. You said the “idea” of hope makes sense to you and that you understand its definition, but its reality escapes you. Without a doubt our life experiences have been different and I am in no way trying to challenge you here, I just wanted to share from my own experience about how hope has played out in my life. Hope has been a strength throughout my life because of the promise that lies after the peril. By clinging to hope in the Lord, dark days seem brighter, sorrow and sadness are overtaken by gladness and joy. Hope, to me, has been something that helps me get through hardships. It aids me when I am struggling and puts a new song in my heart. As I think about hope and how it affects me it helps me to turn to some key passages in scripture that highlight these feelings. In Job 13:15 I see Job clinging to the hope that even though he feels like he is being slain, his hope is still in the Lord. Throughout Psalms I am told to put my hope in God, in His word and in His unfailing love, and that my hope comes from Him. Isaiah 40:31 tells me that my strength is renewed when I hope in the Lord. Romans 12:12 teaches me to be joyful in hope, and finally, Colossians tells me that Christ is the “hope” of glory. In this reference I believe we can equate our hope to salvation because Jesus Christ is our hope of glory and through our hope, His glory will be shown.
This post is a response to Austin Sharp: Austin, I loved the way you equated Paul’s words in the first chapter of Romans as sounding like a brand new believer. It reminded me of the way we are to be “renewed” daily in Christ. Paul must have grabbed on to the fact that there is power available to all believers and for that reason he was not afraid to go forward in faith and preach the gospel boldly. Paul connects this power to God’s salvation and how it is available to everyone (as you pointed out) and in that respect we need to be fully aware of the inclusivity of salvation. The gospel is the power of God for the salvation of EVERYONE who believes, for in the gospel a righteousness is revealed to us from God, therefore all who hear and adhere to it are able to receive power from God that will change their lives! With a message so powerful it seems easy to think we should ALL be charging forward as Paul did to proclaim this good news! My hope is that we will all seek to be transformed daily by the power of God and seek to share that “new born” enthusiasm with all we encounter.
This post is a response to Jason Hines: Jason, great post about God’s foreknowledge and the idea of predestination. Those are two concepts that provide lots of thinking points for me as well. I too wonder if God has “given” us freedom to do what we choose and if He knows the outcome of all our choices, then how is that really freedom? I liked the way you said that it seems for our freedom to take place God must know the future in terms of possibilities and not actualities. I believe you are also right in assuming that leads to the idea that God then does not know what it actually going to happen, only a variety of possibilities to various outcomes (if that is the case). So how are we to understand predestination and foreknowledge if they both conflict with our ideas of freedom? Dr. Hanna’s understanding of each idea helped my understanding as well. You said in your post that God’s will is that we be free and be saved, but that freedom comes first. It helps me to think of it the other way around because I see God’s first and foremost function with predestination being that we are ALL predestined to salvation through Jesus Christ. With this idea in mind, predestination makes sense to me. When I put our freedom before our salvation I start getting confused because salvation has to be available in order for us to choose whether or not we want to accept it therefore if God grants us freedom to choose first, my question is choose what? I think that God first predestines every human being to salvation and then gives them the freedom to accept or reject it. God’s foreknowledge knew what would take place on earth and He predestined a plan of salvation before creation so that we would be able to be free from sin and have a way out. I don’t think his freedom is forced on us in any way, I think His freedom is a gift as well as a curse because we are given a path we can choose to follow that will lead to eternal life but we are also left in a troublesome world with temptations constantly seeking to lead us astray. I don’t know if this has been much help for the struggle you were facing but I hope it has been beneficial in some way. It is fun to exercise our brains by trying to understand God but ultimately I believe that His ways are FAR beyond ours and there are many things we won’t know till we see Him face to face.
This post is a response to Kessia Reyne Bennett: Kessia, your reflection on reconciliation was powerful and very thought provoking. I appreciated the way you brought us into a fuller understanding of the way reconciliation is used in the Gospels and in Acts as well as in various epistles. It was very helpful to me to see how the various verses worked together and helped build an understanding of it. So how does reconciliation really work? Who does what, when, and how does it work? =) It seems clear from 2 Cor. 5:19 that there is significant reconciliatory work being done on the part of God the Father through His Son Jesus Christ. In this sense, like you said, we are reconciled to God, but there is also the implication in the text that there is a work of reconciliation that has been left by God for us. V.18 says that God has given us the ministry of reconciliation and later in v.19 says God has committed the message of reconciliation to us. This action, as you proposed, leaves reconciliation in the hands of both God and man. God reconciled man to Him through Christ and we are now left with the ministry of reconciliation as followers of Christ. I think you are very right in suggesting that the reconciliation has taken place on God’s part but has failed in our hands. Isn’t that usually the case? God’s seeks to partner with us and commits Himself to us and WE are the ones that always break our side of the deal?! Praise God that our reconciliation through Christ has presented us holy in God’s eyes (Col. 1:22) and we are therefore free to move forward in faith and not be bogged down by our sins and brokenness. Your idea that in reconciliation we have the monergism of God on the cross and the synergism of our faithful response seems so fitting because it connects the two parties and adds, what seems to me, the additional element of our faith to the picture. Through our faith in Christ we are able to move forward in the ministry of reconciliation that has been presented to us through His example!
108 comments:
Paul begins chapter five of Romans by referring to his thesis of justification by faith. Having established his argument with substantive evidence from the Old Testament he begins to discuss the blessings of Justification by Faith;(a)there is peace with God,(b)we have access to grace in which we stand,(c)there is cause for rejoicing in hope, so that we can glory even in tribulations,(d)there is God's love which He first demonstrated with the gift of His Son through the Holy Spirit Finally, there is salvation from God's wrath (vs9).All of this is made possible when we are reconciled to God through the death of His Son and should be the basis for endless rejoicing. To explain further the way in which salvation is made possible, Paul compares Christ to Adam. Through one man, Adam, sin and death entered the world, and the consequences have led to the death of many. In a similar way, through one man, Christ, many may now become righteous. Through Jesus' death on the cross, justification is made possible for many .Upon comparing Christ with Adam, Paul briefly mentions that with the entering in of law sin abounded. But the increase of sin has been adequately answered by the grace offered in Jesus Christ It took me a while to accept that the wrath spoken of in verse nine is in reference to God’s wrath. It perhaps is safe to conclude that Christ's death was to appease God's wrath.
Doctrine of Salvation Reflection: June 9, 2009.
Today’s Class Discussion (June 8, 2009) was very educative especially the emphasis on the need for a broader understanding of the term doctrine and their (doctrine’s) historical formulation. Most of the debates in the reformation period had to do with biblical doctrines that were not clear to the people for lack of possessing personal copies of the Bible and knowledge of exegesis.
Today we have a privilege to own and read the Bible in vernacular and having systematized exegetical principles; yet surprising we have more doctrinal disputes. Illustratively the 1888 saga, the more recent Question on Doctrine, which have created wounds in the Adventist church that are felt far and near (are yet to heal as I witnessed during the last 50th anniversary that took place here at Andrews), and WACO in Texas all of which have one thing in common: doctrinal misapprehension and misapplication.
My perception is that had these doctrines been presented in the right manner, the debates that ensued would not have created the devastating divisions that are still prevalent. I know of churches that have been disbanded in my country and the major contributing factor to their disbanding being doctrinal.
As highlighted in class, personalizing issues when it comes to discussing church doctrines polarizes the church into antagonistic factions. One of the contributing factors could be that the church at large does not understand what doctrines are, how and why they formulated (this is my opinion).
It is therefore important to know that doctrines are human formulations and they are not infallible statements but rather an interpretation of a personal understanding of the Biblical truths.
I would therefore stress the need for maturity and tolerance when fellow believer attempt to articulate what may seem to be unbiblical or an official statement of truth. As a church we do not belief in creeds, though some interpretation of scripture if done under acceptable exegesis must be given the benefit of doubt and be appreciated just as we have accepted our fundamental beliefs, which are not creeds, but pillars of our faith as they were formulated, as I believe, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
For sure the Bible does have sound doctrines—teachings—and the people of God can be led to the discovery of such doctrines (1 Tim 4: 13, 16). The Bible studies we share with others may rightly be interpreted as doctrines in one way or another: Paul calls such “sound words” (2 Tim 1:13, see also 2 Tim 2:6-8).
I therefore call for open mindedness when discussing doctrines and allowing the Holy Spirit to guiding our discussions. Doctrines ought not to be discussed in a debate form, but through dialogue with an attitude to learn from each other and were possible correcting each other in the Spirit of Christ.
We must tolerate and love each other as brothers and sisters; discussing doctrinal issues with the desire to edify and revealing the character of our loving God and Christ.
A Response to Herbert Oliphant's posting . . . I too struggle understanding Christ's sacrifice as satisfaction of God's wrath. I could be way off base but it is helpful for me to think of God's wrath not as wrath against the sinner, rather, wrath in principle against sin.
John Sumba I enjoyed your posting on early doctrines of salvation. I think you are right on in your conclusions. I especially liked your emphasis on allowing productive debate among Christians. I heard a sermon by John Hohnberger (escape to God) recently and he made a great point that I have reflected on much. He basically said that they way we treat those we disagree with is just as important as the doctrines we teach as a church.
Researc Topic for the Paper
I am posting my topic, which is "The Significanc of Faith and in the Process of Salvation."
Quigley Obrin Morris
06/09/09
The Doctrine of Salvation
Reading assignments
The readings and lectures has been a great eye opener on the salvation story, the writings of Paul, the salvation story covered by Mrs. White and the classes discussions have help me understand the different modules that could be considered in understanding the broad gift of salvation.
Paul had his own way with words and that makes it difficult to read and understand the full content of his thoughts. But when one has grabbed the depth of his thinking it opens up a new world of reasoning. The book of Romans goes beyond the fact of faith to establish salvation is free to all who wants it.
Mrs. White point to its effectiveness in its freedom, and the pending peril for those who do not accept it, I am of the opinion one cannot escape if he neglect so great salvation. Paul‘s reasoning is also of these lines. God in his mercy have embrace all mankind with the gift of salvation. In other to achieve his goal Christ took steps down the path of humiliation, by becoming flesh and lived among men. The real deal is he had to be among men to show salvation and to point men to the glory of the father through salvation.
It was rather interesting to discover that no one module can cover the full dept of salvation. But instead as many module as possible could be used as a giant puzzle to put the pieces together to see the full picture. Even then there may be other areas that may be left out; Mrs. White said “it is beyond all finite intelligence to comprehend the full mystery of redemption”. She used the same word like Paul (redemption) to establish the fortunes of salvation. But to me the big picture is salvation could only be made possible through the union of divinity with humanity.
“By beholding the sinner is transformed and elevated to the very summit of dignity” said Mrs. White, this is a statement of being saved and is being saved, the process is believe that salvation is available to me. And living as Paul said “by whom we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for his name”. That is just great, the writers guided by God have point us to the fact that salvation is an every day thing. And within your own module on can grow to know Christ’s caving grace better.
would like to comment on the assinment by John Shumba. I really appreciated your statement about the church being polarised by misrepresentation of other doctrines to church. I appreciate
his statement the we should debate but allow the holy Spirit to lead us so that we will not deviate from the truth.
I would like to comment on the assinment by John Shumba. I really appreciated your statement about the church being polarised by misrepresentation of other doctrines to church members. I appreciate his statement that we should debate but allow the holy Spirit to lead us so that we will not deviate from the truth.
6/11/2009 12:41 PM
I am responding to Dennis' comment. I agree on his definition of justification, that it is God pronouncing us righteous and that we have nothing to do with whether we are justified. At the same time, it is important to stress that while we can do nothing to be justified, justification is something that must be accepted and so if we will not be justified if we do not accept it.
I am responding Herbert's comment. I agree with the idea that Christ's grace covers the original sin of Adam. And while I also agree with the idea that Christ's death appeased God's wrath, I don't know if His death was done strictly for that purpose.
In response to John Shumba...
As someone who has personally experienced a church war that deeply wounded my family, I appreciate your comments, and agree whole-heartedly that we are in need of whole-Bible theology.
In response to Brandon Koleda
I think your thoughts on the chronology were spot-on! It is a helpful tool, but perhaps it would be wise to base people on scripture first.
RE: Herbert Oliphant // Romans 5
Paul does not seem to be drawing a neat, clean comparison between being justified and being saved from God's wrath ("we have been justified. . . how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through Him!") This makes me wonder two things. Firstly, is justification something else, something more, or something else than being saved from God's wrath? And if justification is something else, what is it?
Secondly, it makes me wonder about the nature of God's wrath. Before we had been saved from His wrath, God demonstrated His own love for us in that Christ died for us. Could this mean that God's wrath is such that it did not prevent Him from making the great sacrifice of His Son? Giving up your life for someone doesn't seem very wrathful to me. I suspect that I don't know much the nature of God's wrath . . .
RE: Robert Carlson // Hope
Ah, Robert... I totally resonate with your experience (or non-experience?) of hope. "The second coming of Christ – the change in reality that will come on that great day – rarely go beyond the level of theoretical knowledge to me. . . . I have rarely experienced the practical reality of hope. It makes some sense in my mind, but not in my soul." Sometimes I find myself even avoiding these more hopeful, future themes because it doesn't make as much "sense" to me, but I've felt for some time now--the last several months--that this part of my experience needs to be shored up. I need to be hoping more! Thank you for your thoughts on this.
On Brandon's blog:
Enjoyed your comments on the chronology of White's statements. While it is important to study her views and how they developed through her experiences, it is also important for us to lay our foundation in Scripture, and then compare the Biblical chronology to White's experience.
Second comment is on your comments about universal legal justification. I also agree that many so called "scholars" tend to take the topic of "in Christ" and "in Adam" beyond a meaning from Scripture. This tends to end up in mystical beliefs that are human rather than divine. We must remember that our human words cannot fully express the divine concepts of salvation and grace.
On Jason Hine's blog:
Enjoyed your comments on Rodriguez's comments. AMR's comment that all humans that come into the world belong to Christ because he paid the price of redemption was very deep for me. This is a very powerful thought that we all must start with in our journey. So to often, do Christians feel that as sinners, we belong in the domain of darkness.
Also, I agree that we shouldn't exclude people who have different views. I'm reminded of the various models of salvation that we covered in class. Instead of trying to pick one or two that best fits our understanding, we should try to understand all the models and see what their interpretations are. By this manner, we can understand various people's beliefs and introduce a holistic model for understanding and believing salvation
A response to Bong Hun Hong:
Hey, Hyung, thanks for what you have written, I appreciate it.
I like your point that we don’t necessarily try to understand things in a complicated way. I also believe that because Jesus wants to save us so much that He did His best to make us understand easier. And we do have a responsibility to tell others about this simple truth of salvation.
I also like what you have said about Mrs. White. True. We should first have a personal relationship with Christ. I think that is the core. What would it mean if we had all the knowledge on salvation yet our relationship with Jesus is empty? Thanks for your points.
A response to Daniel Yim:
Daniel, I appreciate what you have written. I really enjoyed it.
I like how you point about the hearts of the sinners. The salvation is Christ centered and it cannot be done without Christ but we also cannot neglect the hearts of us humans as well. I think this should be a burden for us Christians so that we can remember that there are people out there who are seeking to be saved.
I also like what you said about the objective process of salvation. It is true we didn’t vote on who to save us. It was already given which I am so thankful for. And it is important that we should remember that God is waiting for our response.
In Response to Robert Carlson
I appreciated the self reflective nature of your post. In our personal experience of Salvation and our walk with God, it is hard to admit where we find that we have uncertainty, or where questions remain unanswered. But it is true, that in admitting to those thoughts and inviting God to be present, it can somehow lead us closer to where we want to be, even by simply admitting that we lack something.
In Response to Bong Hun Hong...
I agree very much with your post. It does seem that there is a great deal of subtle complications that are happening when it comes to articulating and defining the doctrine of salvation. It is true that, like Dr.Hanna said in class, there is "tension" when we try to explain or talk about divine things like salvation. Part of the issue is also that not one person can come to understand all the aspects of salvation with perfect clarity, we are all human with our human abilities and words, that limit the way we can talk about something so vast and eternal as salvation.
responding to Herbert:
God's wrath mention in mentioned Rom 5 and in your post, is interesting b/c we tend to only hear about God's wrath being appeased with Christ's death? I would like to hear more about how it is appeased?
Response to John Schumba:
It is misapplication to doctrines that have steered people wrong and will continue to do so. David Koresh attended Andrews and then messed around with the city od David people and began his own cult because he mixed doctrines. It is a slippery slope as I am learning when it comes to doctrines.
Response to Daniel Yim:
Daniel you are such a deep thinker, thanks for you compact what you read for us.
The important and close relation between Justification and Sanctification. And the role of Jesus Christ in that event and your comments and understanding on it.
Comments on Herbert Oliphant
Thanks for your analyzing first five Chapters of Romans.
I tried to understand righteous by faith clearly in that book (That is why I read whole book of Romans before the class started.) and I also read several times in English and Korean to understand it more clearly.
But still the book of Romans is vague to me.
Maybe Paul's writing is so delicate and deep that is why it's hard to understand.
If you have any good suggestion to understand the book better, please let me know.
Thank you!
Hey Myoung,
You got the right and the most important point, that is Christ is the center of our Salvation.
I really like that.
Especially I highly respect and agree your "Recovery model" and it makes sense. And I can feel that you tried to explain it with your experience (I think your example is a bit awkward. But I can understand what you want to say^^)
Like we discussed in the class, models can be named in variety of ways what the person emphasis on the most.
Thank you for good insights!
RE: Massiel Davila // Ellen White on Salvation
Ellen White's refusal to be pushed to either side of the debate on holiness in salvation is pretty amazing! If even I find myself pushing one view to the exclusion of all others, it's a pretty good indication that I've crossed that line...
Robert Carlson........
Perhaps it's because of my sensitivity, okay not all the time but sometimes because of my sensitivity, I tend to drawn more towards blogs like yours that are REAL and HONEST!
Yes....academics have their place but for me they are at number 3 or 4 on my most important concept scale.
You've touched my heart with your honest search and struggle in trying to understand this concept of HOPE that you mentioned.
Honestly, who understands these things completely? Outside of Divinity? So I want to encourage you to continue on struggling and continue on learning about Hope and per chance God has already given you some insights into this element that perhaps our class would be wise to learn from...keep us updated on your journey.
In response to Kessia,
I really appreciated your willingness to be open. I always admire when someone is willing to be vulnerable and share their struggles. We're in this together.
I also appreciated the topic of your comment. I've been thinking as well lately on this. It's not just that we commit sin. We are sin. We don't only possess fleshy characters. We are sinful people through and through. Thank goodness we have a Saviour! Thanks for your observations.
In response to Massiel,(welcome to the seminary!)
Thanks for the clear way you unpacked your thoughts in your blog.
It was insightful the way you noticed that Ellen White had to grow in her theological understandings of salvation. Most people do not realize that our Adventist heritage has been at times a messy process whereby God's people had to learn as they went and trust that he will lead us to a clearer understanding of His word and will. Good observation!
Myoung Kwon
I found your first blog about Salvation via the article written by Angel Rodriquez throth with humor and relevancy. I concur with you on many thoughts you brought up and in particular, the idea of Christ being the Ultimate center of all our theologizing and modelizing.
I am sorry about your misfortune in vehicle maintenance. This happens to me too, more than I’d admit to enjoying. Car windows are no exception. However, I saw your point clearly, or at least what I thought you we’re intending to expound in broad strokes.
We are deeply and thoroughly soaked to the bone in sin aren’t we?; completely helpless and desperately empty of any goodness apart from our Loving Heavenly Father’s provision through our Saviour and Lord Jesus Christ.
We are broken, in more ways than at times we’d like to admit. We are quick to point the finger to a fellow Seminarian or family member who might be struggling with pornography or stealing, or lying, or maybe even gambling to the unwise neglect of the TREE in our own eye….thank GOD for His Amazing LOVE and foreknowledge and all that we today in class, and Paul discusses and or discussed in Romans 8.
I commend you Myoung for your thoughts and for deanthropomorphising what could otherwise have possibly been seen as mere philosophical and religious jargon. Thanks again.
Fa’asoa
In response to Brandon,
Brandon, good summation of your BRI readings. Way to tackle several key theological ideas and explain your position easily. I really need things broken down for me and I feel you did that.
I also liked the way you realized what may be an untimely bible study for a new believer. You keep first things first. It's sounds like you're a veteran bro.
Robert,
Thanks for your willingness to be open with your posting. Your post encouraged me. I always appreciate it when someone shares from a personal perspective.
Also I thought it was really creative the way you word-searched the connection between hope and glorification and the idea of the second coming. Way to think outside the box.
In response to Kessia
Two things. First, I appreciated your openness and your depth of thought. Second, I like your writing style. I know that isn't necessarily the point of this exercise, but it was enjoyable to read!
-Fa'asoa
"Like a 12 gage silver pistol, with an ivory handle cocked and fired, Ellen white said the following words without ducking from fear of her opponent."
Great simile! I love this! I also appreciate your thinking, and the Christ-centeredness that comes through in your writing.
Quigley Morris
the articles are very intresting to read, and one can learn as much as the class room. Hebert introduced some new model of salvation that i feel impress with, he highlight peace, Grace, hope and love. when each is look at we can fine new areas to think about in relation to salvation.my first point will be on grace; grace will cover us if we make the choice to receive grace from God. many people think that they can do what ever they want and they will receive grace from god. they will not face the punishment that is set for thoes who do not accept his grace. i think the gratest is Love if we love as Christ love us then we will promote the quality that God expect of us. love is the essent of this gosepl and it is love that take Jesus to the cross and it is that same love that is planted in our hearts that will give us the desire to love and serve him and enjoy the grace that he alone offers.
Jason was also intresting on saving the human race. the death of Christ will not save the human race, but it will give the human race the privelage to be save. that brings the choice factor into play. every one of us have a choice to make and that choice will depend who is our master.its only after the choice is made can our sins be forgiven, and we walk in newest of life angain this is a nother word that could mean salvation.
I am responding to Austin's comments from 06-17-09. I totally agreed with your comments about Romans 5 and the beginning of Rom 6. I think that Paul is trying to state very strongly and very clearly the balance that exists in the concept of salvation. That Christ did die for sinners, but not so that they could remain sinners.
I am responding to Robert's comments from 06-17-09. I really appreciated your comments about hope. It is so interesting to see how those who seem to be going through the most difficult times seems to have so much hope. I think that applies to the disciples as well. As they sat confused at the hour of Christ's trial, Jesus gave them something that would be a sticking point for them in the dark times ahead. I sincerely pray that you will find yourself growing in hope as the class continues! :-)
In response to Quigley Morris
Thank you Quigley for your precise research about Justification with simple terms help us to understand the Big term justification.
It is very true that only Christ's "atonement alone that made justification possible and set man(us) free".
In response to Jason Hines,
Thanks Jason for your reflection. I think it truly is a mystery for us humans to fully understand the concept of predestination. I do really like the way you ask back, “If God has predestined us to be free, then how are we really free?” It is like God not giving the tree of knowledge of good and evil and saying, “Adam, Eve! You can do anything you want!” But it is not freedom because your choice of rebellion is eliminated from the beginning.
In response to Bryant Herbert,
Hi Bryan! Same for me, too. I was only thinking of soccer and basketball during that age. And I still think a lot about sports, too! Hahaha.. Yes, I too think that salvation is a process. I am glad that God sent Jesus to save us, and I am also glad that He sent the Holy Spirit to work in us to mold us and to make us better people to be in God’s Kingdom!
Herbert Oliphant
In response to john schumba's comment re doctrines I agree that doctrines are not infallible however i would say they are for the most part human interpretations rather than statements. with emphasis on "for the most part" because some doctrines are basically formulated from "Divine Imperatives"example fundamental beliefs #19 that deals with the decalogue/laws.These in my opinion are not mere "human formulations or interpretation of a personal understanding of the Biblical truths".I believe God has a direct input in their formulation despite controversies or disagreements with some of them(doctrines)hence they are divinely endorsed or inspired and can be attributed to God rather than men.
Herbert Oliphant
In response to Bryant Herbert's comment re misapplication of doctrines that lead people in the wrong.I agree whole heartedly. My approach over the years...if one doesn't agree with a doctrine follow standard procedures and leave the church lecturn out of his/her disagreements, utilize prayer ,tolerance and careful bible studies.
To Kessia:
I feel you on laziness being a sin. Sometimes we get caught with ourselves and our own salvation that we forget about others. But I that I can do more because I always feel that I can do more to reach people in the community and family members that are not into God. Kessia you are a bubble of joy!
Editing from my last comment: (I was rushing, lol)
I feel you on laziness being a sin. Sometimes we (myself) get caught up with ourselves and our own salvation that we forget about others, not what Christ intended. But I personally feel that I can do more to reach people in the community and family members that are not into God. Kessia, don't stress, you are a bubble of joy!
Austin, I agree that sometimes we do get caught up with being a "particular" people, and stressing the Sabbath and 2nd Advent. It's not like it's going to be only Adventist in heaven? I had a professor say that more Adventist will be lost because they didn't accept the invitation. I pray that we can stop focusing on having the "truth", and focus on preaching the gospel, which is Jesus Christ.
On Jason's blog:
I have also wondered the same questions that you have presented. If God knows all the choices we are going to make in the future, is that really freedom to us? And why would God know everything and then set the world in motion? It seems illogical to me. It's like, if I'm reading an intense thriller book, but someone tells me the final outcome of the book before I finish, then I'll just set the book down, or if I haven't started yet, then I won't even begin. Why would God create the world if he knew before hand that we would indeed sin?
My own answer to my own madness is that God is love, and love is more powerful than knowing the ending of a book. Because God loves us so much, more than we can comprehend, God chooses to experience life with us, along side us, as our friend and companion. What a great friend we have in Jesus!
On Bong Hun's blog:
Charles, your comments on divine initiative is really important for me to contemplate the divine plan that was set before the creation of the world. This helps me to realize that God's salvation plan was started from the beginning. We as humans had no part in its plan or concept. Therefore, we are weak and helpless when it comes to understanding the intricate parts of God's divine plan. It was God's initiative and not man's. It started with God and it will end with God and we are smack right in the middle!
RE: Herbert Oliphant // Judgment in John 12:31-33, 16:11
When I first read through your blog posting, I think I misunderstood it to be saying that all judgment (and final judgment) of God took place at the cross. That would do away with the role of individual choice and of the investigative judgment, of course. After re-reading it and finding the article that you were referring to, I now understand what you mean and I agree--that is a cool concept! As Christians, we really struggle with balancing the "now" and the "not yet" aspects of eschatology, including the judgment. Thankfully, as you pointed out, in the doctrine of the sanctuary Adventist Christians have a way of understanding this that bridges the gap between the judgment at the cross and the final judgment. Pretty amazing stuff!
RE: Dennis // Ellen White on Salvation
I think you've hit it right on the mark, Dennis. At the cross we see an attractive manifestation of divine love AND we see God in fact taking the penalty of sin upon Himself. It is in recognizing both of these truths (plus many more) that we find the complete truth about salvation. And praise the Lord!--Ellen White was possibly the most balanced theologian, and we get the privilege of learning from her.
RE: Bryant Herbert // Thoughts on Salvation
It is good to be looking for the practical implications of these deep thoughts on the subject of salvation. My experience has convinced me that often people hold to one view or another precisely because of the practical considerations, not just because they were convinced in their minds that it was the right way. And theology (even the theoretical part) is immensely practical, so it's great to be looking for connections between classroom and real life. And I'm glad that you found at least the one connection that you were looking for :)
Thanks Kessia. I'm always looking for an object lesson to minister to people.
i am very impress with Herbert concern on the Justification and foreknowledge as he remember in comprison to what he was though in his early years. i guest this class is turning out to be an eye opener to all of us. while i grew up in the church and believed that i understand these simply things like you i am now seeing the wider picture with more grace. to understand foreknowledge and how God uses what is available to him to reach us is beyond the simple things i believe. the cross is free and it is god's will that all should come to repentance but it is still our will and desire.
Bong Hun see youth ministry in his salvation moudle, his passon is to minister to young people i feel he did a great job with his desire to have salvation presented to the youth. it is so true that we are loosing our young people and if we can get a way to reach them with the salvation moudle in a way that they can relate to i think we will all mak e a positive different in young people's life.
i do not think that we have fail or we are loosing,what i do know we can do better. all we need is a little more love and a minute a day one on one with this salvation message and we will see the difference.
Glorification is thus concerns the final events in the salvation of the true believers that began in eternity past with god’s elective decision. It is the fitting conclusion to our spiritual journey in which God’s glory is becoming progressively revealed. This involves the resurrection of the saints, transformed bodies in reunion with their spirits, vindicated before the judgment seat of Christ and entering into the place of perfect holiness meant for perfect people. This great event will occur at Christ second coming in glory. In this glorified state the sorrows of the old order would be gone forever, and sin abolished, death mourning, crying and pain will be no more. Ramm commented “the New Jerusalem is the home of the redeemed, in which city the triune God lives in unbroken communion with the redeemed. The entire description is one of glory. Glorified saints live in a glorious city in glorious existence surrounded by the new cosmos”. He continues that the city is the eternal home of man and the eternal tabernacle of God. It is glorified environment and glorified society which correspond to the glorified soul and a glorified body of the redeemed.
Bryant-
I agree with you that we tend to make salvation a more difficult thing than it is. Jesus' yoke is easy, and His burden is light. We must always remember that, and keep Christ before us all the time. It is all too easy to get caught up in theologizing and forget to open the door when He knocks.
On another note, if you decide that you want to freely share the information you have been working on (the presentation you made in class), I would be interested. I think there is a lot of potential there to help people "get" it.
(My apologies for the double post. I accidentally put this in the assignments section first)
Bong Hun Hong-
I completely agree with you in that many of the articles I was assigned to read in the years past are much more interesting to me now. I find the website containing all the BRI articles incredibly interesting now. Just today I found myself reading a long article by Richard Davidson addressing the Catholic Church on the issue of Biblical hermeneutics. It wasn't part of any assignment...I just found it interesting. Five years ago there is no way I would have read that article on my own time.
On Remnant Concept by Quigley
It is a good reminder to us SDA's to understand what remnant means. It would be helpful to review ourselves in the mirror and apply the truths about God's remnant to us as a people and a church. Let us be honest for our future lies in God's hands and not our labels. Thank you for your comments on this topic.
On Calling and Salvation by Keisha
Thank you for expanding on the Biblical concept of calling. Especially for folks like me who have not yet had Greek, it is helpful to see the Biblical context in which calling is used by God and applied to humanity's salvation. This helps my understanding in God's initiative in saving me.
Also, I thought of calling and salvation in the context of Adam and Eve, before and after their sin. God walked and talked directly with Adam and Eve; what must have that been like? But after sin, Adam and Eve heard the sound of the Lord in the trees of the garden and hid. Then God called them out. Call me Lord, for I have sinned!
This is in response to Quigley's comment from 06-24-09. Quigley thanks for such an insightful comment. I agree that the word remnant has been used in the past as a word of elevated status and division from other denominations. While I am unsettled on the remnant doctrine, I am sure of this, that the definition of the word as it has been used in my personal experience needs to change. I also agree with you about our public perception. I think it would be much harder to attract people if we make ourselves unfriendly by offending people. There is a way to disagree without being disagreeable.
This is in response to Kessia Reyne's comment from 06-24-09. Thanks Kessia for a really insightful statement on calling. I never realized that calling itself is used mostly as a term of salvation. Furthermore, I thought it was compelling that the call from God produces a call in us as well.
response to Kessia
Thanks Kessia for your thoughts on Calling in relation with Salvation.
I agree what you said in your blog box, “God’s call in the New Testament is one extended for salvation”. Throughout reading yours, something came out my mind is our response is also part of fulfill His salvation.
I was amazed your eagerness to searching for the truth. And I am glad that you are familiar and use good tools like TDNT and Greek lexicon.
Response to Jason Hines
Thank you Brother Hines, you deal with very important topic I also struggled with so many years.
I still remember when I was 11 or 12, I questioned if God knows everything why did He let Adam and Eve sinned? And why their mistake suffers us, too? If God knows He will send His Son to save us and redeem this world again, maybe it is better not to create human being.
This is young born Adventist boy’s struggle for several years.
I’m very glad we struggle and try to find better understanding together for Him and His salvation in this class.
In response to Bong Hun Hong,
Hey Hyung, I really enjoy what you are writing. When you think of the book of Romans, first thing that pops up is “difficult” But I like the way you put it as a Gospel. That word makes it easier for me to understand. I kinda feel the way you do as I read Romans myself.
I also like your point that Paul had to use their difficult concept and language in order to explain salvation. I like simplicity so I myself like to understand salvation in a simpler sense, yet I would need to equip myself in order to explain it to others.
In response to Robert Carlson,
Hey Robert, I really enjoyed what you wrote. I like what you said about the Marys and the Marthas in the church. I had never thought of it that way. I also like what you said about not me changing but it is Jesus who changes me. All I have to do is be in Jesus. That is powerful.
Jason, I too feel that people try force they way of life during a person's Christian walk. It's our job to introduce to God and Jesus and then let the Holy Spirit do the rest. Sometimes the legalism in our religion takes over in our "witnessing" and actually pushes people away. I've seen it first hand and it plagues us as a church.
Herbert,
I appreciated your feedback on the investigative judgment. This is a topic that many Adventists do not address today and I think it is an important topic. I also think it is important as well to be aware of the arguments anti-Ellen White people use, which you do.
Bryant,
I appreciated your blog first because you came from a personal perspective which I always appreciate because it shows authenticity and sincerity. Also I appreciated it because it was totally Christ-centered. The central idea was indeed the gospel.
Kess,
Thanks for you blog. It was interesting how you went in depth into the Greek to explain your point about the "called ones". It was very scholarly. I enjoyed reading it.
Bryant,
Thanks for your input in your blog bro. You're right. There are a lot of topics today that are being swept under the rug. People in today's church need to hear these issues addressed. If we do not address them then the media and the world will address them.
Bong Hong:
I t think we will not understand Salvation, righteousness, etc. until we get to heaven. We are sinful beings and we can not fully understand something divine as sinful creatures.
Response to Austin Sharp
Thank you for your honesty and I am glad for your wrestling with Paul’s explanation of the law. I think your time to wrestle with this issue is not meaningless.
It will help you to seek for the truth more.
To clearly understand Paul and especially his way of writings, I personally believe you need holistic understanding for the Jewish culture, his way of writing, the recipients, and so forth. Sometimes his writings sound like contract each other, but if you more deep into his writings with balanced and holistic understanding you can see the beauty of how contradiction can make harmony.
Response to Dennis
Thank you Dennis for clarifying what is justification, sanctification, and glorification and shared the tension between “Already” and “Not Yet” in the section you mentioned about glorification.
I think these big words are key elements of Salvation.
In response to Bong Hun Hong thoughts on Salvation... Thanks for verbalizing you struggle. I agree humans have a tendency to make things way to complicated. I think we can get lost in all of the models and verbage of the topic of salvation and miss the whole point of it all. On the other hand I think the theme of salvation, because of its origination in the divine mind, is an exhaustless topic. All our models and theological discussion hints at its depth and richness. Personally, I believe there is a place for probing its depths, but we must always keep its simple essence foremost in our minds and experience.
Comment on Massiel Davila posting. . .
I enjoyed your posting on EGW and Salvation. I just wanted to mention that although our situation to day is unlike hers like you said because we have the benefit of more than a hundred years of study and debate, our situation is still much the same in the each of us must personally digest the information in an experiential way in our own time much the same way Ellen White did. We might have more information now, but we must all learn it for ourselves.
In Response to Kessia – June 14th
I found your post especially refreshing. In constantly find myself coming face to face with the kind of character I would have if I completely removed myself from the will of God, and more than any other sin, that is the one I came face to face with. If I were to remove myself from the will that God has for me, the momentum of my life would come to a complete standstill. There would be nothing edifying me, or inspiring me to move forward. I would be happy to live a complacent easy life; I think that’s what the devil indeed wants for us. Men and women who have let laziness rule their lives so they are not moving towards a more Christ like character. When we don’t take laziness, or it’s counterparts, procrastination & apathy seriously, we’ve just sleepily wandered away from the way of salvation. A text I always take courage in is 2 Timothy 1:7, “For God did not give us a spirit of timidity, but a spirit of power, of love and of self-discipline.”
In response to Fa’asoa M. Fa’asoa – “Against Elder Brown.”
I just wanted to commend your lively writing style. It is true indeed that we need to continually see if there is an “Elder Brown” in each of us, lest we get so comfortable in our views that we’ve gotten off track and have stopped learning.
In response to Jason's comment "I think it would be much harder to attract people if we make ourselves unfriendly by offending people. There is a way to disagree without being disagreeable".I agree that the gospel truth must be pesented with tact,however,some people will always be offended and that still should not deter the gospel worker.
Fa’asoa Michael Fa’asoa
In response to:
Massiel Davila, on “The Delicious Struggle of Predestination”
I thought you wove your thoughts and concerns together very well. Appreciate your honesty in sharing a concern, believe it or not that is often a common denominator across collegiate lines, though not limited to.
(I so vividly remember having no words, blushing and then sheepishly saying, “you know, I really don’t know.”) Unwittingly perhaps, though frightening-you managed to share what so many sincere Christians fear, and that is to admitting that our finite understanding and comprehension of things eternal is indeed limited…….so limited in fact that when we come to a new discovery in the scope of the eternal, we often feel as though we have arrived-and yet in that concept we wade as though eternal discoveries limit themselves to one’s box.
May this statement of yours, “If we came to have absolute answers for everything related to God, we’d be missing out in so much of the wonder of growing, and diving into study because we just want to understand it a little more…” be to us all, a beacon of wonder about the eternals to which we may ever strive to understand throughout the ceaseless ages and yet never come to the place where we feel or think that we have finally comprehended the eternal, but rather that we have come to know the limitless and universally infiniteness of the GOD we have come to know and understand, serve and LOVE!
Thank you Massiel
Fa’asoa Michael Fa’asoa
In response to:
Herbert Oliphant in responding to Jason’s comment……
I respectfully disagree with your reaction to Jason’s thoughts my friend. Too often in my experience, not that my experience should be the measuring stick on the issue addressed necessarily, the “Gospel Worker” as you stated, come to the vineyard of GOD not only with presuppositions and a demeanor unlike that of Christ in their disagreeableness, to which “tact” is understood to mean “don’t dilute the message…don’t water it down…tell it like it is…” however painful and un thoughtful it may have come across to the receiver…too often in the attitude that I have knowledge that you (the receiver) know nothing about and you really want me to share it with you….so I will…however violatile it may have come across the grain of their freedom of choice…and yet the worker continues to press on until his/her goal is met.
Don’t get me wrong, I think that there is a sense in which the “Gospel Worker” should carefully and wisely press forward in sharing the Good News with people but prayerfully contexualizing his/her mission to fit the situation. Then when he/she has done all that is/was possible in their power to not be offensive and yet still offended, then leave, in my opinion, the situation to God to work it out for that particular individual’s salvation….whatever that may mean.
Reflection PTH June 30, 2009
In my study of faith I was overwhelmed to understanding how the concept of biblical faith is so broad and deep. Most import is the understanding of faith is not only an attribute of God’s character, but also the characteristic of his law. As an Adventist I know that the law is the transcript of God’s character. Studying the nature of faith helped me appreciate more deeply the aspect of God in relation to His Law. This reality came through when I looked at Abraham’s faith in God. When the Bible says in Gen 15: 6 that Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness. The term ‘believe’ is aman in Hebrew and pistei in Greek). This same term is related to the law/testimony (Torah or instructions) of God in Ps 19:7-8): God’s Law (the Torah) is said to be sure (Hebrew ‘aman’ and Greek ‘pistei in LXX) making the wise simple.” When one considers the context of Ps 19 as it focuses on the glory and handwork of God (Ps 19:1) there seems to be a relationship between faith and the law in the sense that the law is sure just like faith is sure: “the assurance of things hoped for,” (Heb 11:1).
On the other hand, Ps 19 speaks of the firmament as declaring the handwork of God. The handwork of God is the manifestation of the power of God that created the stars. It is known that the stars, billions of galaxies, like our sun are governed by natural laws and are faithfully moving in the heavens. What interests me is the movement of the planets, much more the earth as it rotates on its axis bringing sunrise and sunsets, night and day, and our seasons. All this is the manifestation of the mercies of God that are new every morning. Thus the biblical teaching that the glory of God and his handwork in his creation (Ps 19) is not only the reflection of his outward splendor, but also a manifestation of His excellence, firmness, faithfulness and surety.
Therefore, in the natural laws we may see the character of God that relates to His faithfulness and security revealed. The power of God is hidden and illustratively revealed when atoms are split, for example in the atom bomb. The laws of nature that keep the atoms together are faithful in keeping the atoms together: this too is the reflection faithfulness of God. As we anticipate glorification, we can trust—believe in God much more because His faithfulness is as sure as His Laws.
Food for thought: Interesting enough Ellen White equates the laws of nature with the law of God when she says: “It was the law of nature, therefore the law of God, that brain, nerve, and muscle, should be in active motion” (Health Reformer, May 1, 1873, par 1):” “The law of Nature is the law of God; and the penalty of its transgression is visited alike upon men and women” (Health Reformer, July 1, 17878, par 4).
How faithful are we in keeping the laws of health?
Regarding Mike
I too have recently been reminded that Jesus promised never to leave us nor forsake us. It is an easy trap to misread what we have been given concerning the close of probation and interpret it as a time when God abandons us. Fortunately, this will never be the case! Nothing can separate us from His love!
Regarding a different post by Mike,
Your essay about assurance of salvation, and your conclusions about the hope we have in Christ and His second coming were of great encouragement to me! Thanks!
I'm commmenting on Brandon's post from 06-29. Interesting survey Brandon. I too believe that Hanna's hypothesis is correct, although I think the landscape is changing. But also, part of it may be the whole idea of theory vs. practice, in the sense that when you have an intellectual discussion with people they get it, but then they either disseminate that same information incorrectly or live their lives in a way that denies their intellectual understanding.
I am responding to Robert's comment from 07-01. I agree Robert with everything you said. Having been trained as a lawyer, we were taught (colloquially) that the answer to every question is, "it depends." While that does not map perfectly onto religious discussions, it has taught be to openminded in my thinking and realize that the answer usual is not either-or but somewhere in the middle.
But I think the other reason why the Bible seems to speak from one side or another is because of context. Because the Bible writers are always speaking to a particular audience, it has always seemed to me that the writer said what the audience needed to hear, not necesarily what they already knew. So if the audience already knows that God is just, then what they need to hear is "God is merciful," and vice versa. But that doesn't mean that the particular audience didn't know the other side - it is possible that the author said what they said distinctly because the people being written to already knew the other side. That's why it is important for us to consider the whole of the word of God in order to gain the best understanding for ourselves.
On Jason's Blog
I also have thought a lot about monergy and synergy this past week. We live in a society that pushes us to control and act in order to get results and recognition. It is only the lazy ones that get left behind with nothing. This mentality drives Christians to work for something and expect to place value on our work. But divine works of salvation cannot be categorized by falliable human words. I have been blessed by learning about the Hebrew way of thought in approaching God by Dr. Doukhan's class. The Hebrews approached God with awe and reverence for his holiness and power. There was nothing they could say or do in the presence of God. If today's Christian could come before God as his creation, then we would be humbled and silent. All we can do is receive.
On Austin's Blog
I agree with your comments on the verse Romans 8:28. I don't think Christians should take certain Bible verses and use them to try to console human pain and crisis. God works in all things. Is this something that we cannot accept? Or is this something that we don't want to accept? I don't think we should say "let go and let God," but rather, God works and let's observe and receive. I also agree that we can teach a more holistic approach to God's word to church members.
RE: Robert Carlson // Holistic Thinking
Robert, thank you for that post! I think it brought together for me what had been floating around my mind, but unarticulated. I loved the phrase of your undergrad professor: "The answer is yes." I have the feeling that that will remain with me a long time.
Also, your reflection on the Bible writer's appearance of one-sided thinking was very helpful to me. Thank you!
RE: Daniel Yim // Ransom
I like that in your post you focused on the great price paid by Christ for our ransom, instead of getting caught up in that old debate about the receptor of the price. (Also, it was hilarious that you referenced Austin Powers... hahahaha!)
RE: Jason Hines // Monergism and Synergism
"I have the ability to help God out." Seems that way sometimes, doesn't it? Things seem to be going pretty well in life, internally and externally, and I get to thinking, "Yeah, I got this." Then the whole synergy thing has turned into more of a Kessia Reyne Show. Lame.
Somehow, though, God uses the awfulness of sin to turn us around and remind us that we don't have the ability to help Him out. Not even a little bit.
Thanks for sharing, Jason.
In response to Daniel Yim,
Hey Daniel, thanks for your reflection, I really enjoyed it.
Well, same for me, I get to think of what happens in movies when it comes to the word ransom. I remember a movie titled ‘Ransom’ starred by Mel Gibson.
I like your point where you say it is Christ is the initiator of our souls. This tells me how great the authority of God is. I also like the point where it wasn’t God’s response toward Satan. That tells me how much God had already loved us even from way back, and He would step up for us no matter what happens.
In response to Jason Hines,
Thanks Jason, I enjoyed your reflection.
I like where you point out that the work we have to do is the work that only we can do. In other words it is saying that there is not much(or even nothing) we can do unless it is for Jesus.
And yes, it is so hard to overcome our sinful nature and our own tendencies, which tells me that we have to strongly depend on Christ only to strengthen us and empower us.
In response to Robert Carlson- June 25th
"Is it possible that I have been more concerned with becoming like Christ than knowing Jesus?" As I read your post, that question stopped me dead in my tracks. It's true, how often do we think we've got our heads on straight and are walking in the right direction and doing the right thing, but we've got it all wrong. Another line in your blog that impressed me was, "Would it enough for me to just be with Him, even if I come out of the experience looking more like a disciple and less like a saint?" Think about the disciples, they needed to stop talking, and listen and watch a little more. I am so guilty of the same thing. Before I rush headlong into my idea of the right thing, if I would just stop, listen and watch Jesus' example, the change would be deeper the behavior. We can't watch somebody like Jesus, without any kind of agenda, and somehow not be transformed. Maybe part of the learning, is learning just how to sit down and listen.
In Response to Quigley June 30
I appreciated the reminder that the goal of our lives, and the bridge opened up by the Cross, is for us to live more in harmony with our Creator. It got me thinking, what would that look like. How would our lives be like if they were more in harmony with our Creator, or even with how we were originally created to be. The character flaws that we would strive to work through, and the drama of life that would loose it's importance because our eyes are looking forward, looking upward, as we are being changed inward.
RE: Robert Carlson // June 25th, Sanctification
Massiel's recent comment made me go back and find the post she was commenting on and wow! I'm sure glad I did. Robert, your post was really thought-provoking! It is an issue that I've thought about before, but never in those terms. I think that I really, really needed to hear it that way right now.
in his book "The Pursuit of Holiness" author Jerry Bridges briefly makes a point about the language we use and it has stuck with me for years. He says that there's a subtle but important difference between a focus on "victory" and a emphasis on "obedience." Here are his words: "Our first problem is that our attitude toward sin is more self-centered than God-centered. We are more concerned about our own 'victory' over sin than we are about the fact that our sins grieve the heart of God. We cannot tolerate failure in our struggle with sin chiefly because we are success-oriented, not because we know it is offensive to God. . . . God wants us to walk in obedience--not victory. Obedience is oriented toward God; victory is oriented toward self. . . . This is not to say God doesn't want us to experience victory, but rather to emphasize that victory is a byproduct of obedience. As we concentrate on living an obedient, holy life, we will certainly experience the joy of victory over sin."
Comments on Bong Hun Hong’s 6/12/2009 11:42 AM
I appreciate for your thoughtful insight. I think of the reason that why there are so many salvation models as well. And I totally agree that we should have our personal experience to have right understanding. However, even though many salvation models look alike complicated, the issue would be that whether can we saved by Jesus’ sacrifice or not. And I believe that if we careful enough and study from this perspective, we can find the truth.
Comments on Myoung Kwon 6/12/2009 2:33 PM
Myoung! That illustration on the window was very impressive. So, the point is, something crucial was lost and it needs to be replaced. It’s very simple truth. But, for people to understand this, the most important thing to be emphasized would be letting them see the realness of the corruption. Once they see the brokeness and seriousness, they will surely feel the need of something to be happened. So, I think that is our work.
Comments on Kessia Reyne Bennett 6/14/2009 12:50 PM
Kessia! I think so too. Our understanding of sin is so shallow. Reading your comment, I feel like I’m reading Romans. How we can have right understanding of sin and explain to the people out there and tell them to get away from it would be our work which is very serious and important.
Comments on Kessia Reyne Bennett 6/14/2009 12:50 PM
I think we need to have a guilt definitely. However, I think of guilt as 2 kinds. Guilt is a feeling that comes out when we see the sin of ourselves. There is nothing wrong with it. But the problem is whether the guilt kills myself or saves myself. And I think we have to be very careful with the guilt that kills people.
Comments on Bong Hun Hong 6/19/2009 4:21 PM
Initiative! I like the concept for it shows the power and richness of God. No one can reach out to the fallen except God for he is powerful and rich. Can man save others? No, because he/she doesn’t have power to save even though he/she wants to. Christ was initiative for he has power and riches.
Comments on Daniel Yim 6/21/2009 1:00 AM
Salvation is definitely a process by which we come to Christ, are made whole in Christ, and will be eternally redeemed through Christ. I appreciate for Daniel’s holistic understanding on salvation. He didn’t say that we’ll have salvation when we come to Christ. It’s very important to have this kind of holistic view on salvation.
Comments on Daniel Yim 6/21/2009 1:00 AM
I loved what Daniel said. What I understood was that if I don’t experience salvation today, I wo’t be able to have salvation tommorow. And Jesus is able to give us the assurance today that he has carried us and carrying us and will carry us.
Comments on Bong Hun Hong 6/28/2009 9:29 AM
That’s right. We will study doctrine of salvation in heaven for it is beyond our imagination. But, at the same time, while it is a great mystery and wonder, God has promised that He’s going to teach us so we can simply understand and accept the plan of salvation. I just want to simply wait for Holy spirit to teach me.
Comments on Brandon Koleda 6/29/2009 9:06 PM
Is it because God takes the possibility away or because his creations doesn’t choose to sin? Brandon! I think that’s an interesting qustion. In my opinion, I think it’s both of them.
there is a very good comment left by some anonymous person. to me it just explain some of my own feeling. the person listed five points to clear his thinking, and i want to run through them (1) there is peace with God. when we are in touch with God we feel good of who we are not because of who we are been able to be come but what Christ have made of us through the power of the gospel. (2)God's grace is available to all who wants, all we have to do is to aske him to help us choose the right.(3)hope is a motivator because if there is no home then we are vaunarable to who we are. (4) and all this is made possible through the death of Christ. (5) God then open his cheque book and give each a cheque of the same value and that is salvation. what a promise.
John is in touch with a more doctrinal matter. we are all in the process of understanding who God is and how he works. so we should show tolerance in dealing with other religous thinking on the matter of salvation i just wonder if all 33 thousand christians religions will one day get it right on one matter. talk about hope.
In Response to Jason Hines - June 26
I totally agree with you on your comments in regards to freedom. We aren't really comfortable with it sometimes, we'd rather have less freedom and more acceptable behavior. I don't want to sound scandalous or anything, but maybe we've put more restrictions on ourselves than God ever had in mind for us to have. He's interested in us having more life, more joy, more reconciliation and peace. The only thing he wants for us to experience less of is sin and its consequences, and the best way for us to start doing that, is using the freedom we have to choose Him and spend more time with Him.
In Response to Mike Rhynus - July 2
I appreciated your comment, I was impressed by your statement, "God provides this way freely and without coercion which requires both God and man to work together." The idea that God would deem to walk with us, doing what only he can do, but not forcing us along is incredible. It's all to our benefit, and He still stoops down to our language and makes possible so that we can keep up with him...well for a part of the way at least...
This is in response to Jahisber Penuela's paper. I'm gratful for the insight you gave me about the teaching of the immortality of the soul.
Myoung Kwon 6/19/09
You stated that you think that the concept of predestination is truly a mystery. I believe that not everyone can be correct and that maybe no one is. I have been looking at Romans 8:29, 30 for some time. If we were to accept scholars based on credentials to tell us what it means, I would presume that we would need to look to John Calvin for his thoughts. Since most of the people on this thread would not probably follow him, how will we determine who to follow or turn to? I have decided to follow only the Holy Spirit. How do I do that? I have developed a ‘model’ for my study. I read in context. I accept the message rather than just words. I ask myself what I would like the message to be. I develop a picture in my mind of what I have received. If that is not in conflict with the rest of my belief system and no one will be harmed if I am wrong, I accept what I get. When I apply this to Romans 8 this is what I end up with: He who he did foreknow, from the foundation of the world, He did predestine to be treated as the firstborn, or to have it all. If we believe that he foreknew us, this would apply to us, if not, then not. From the foundation of the world, He did predestine us to be treated as the firstborn. Predestine being a verb means that he must have performed a specific act at the foundation of the world. When – at the foundation of the world! Geneses 1 says: In the beginning God created the whole universe including this earth (That is the way I see it); maybe a billion years ago; a long time. At that point He looked down over the ceaseless ages of the universe and saw you and me. He thought: They are going to need a lot of laws in place in order to overcome the obstacles they are going to encounter, while they are pursuing the dreams I am going to place in their hearts. So right then he put in place every law that we would ever need to do or get anything that we would ever want, and in doing that he predestined us to have it all (the birthright of the firstborn). This is one of the most important of what I call Bible Doctrines that I have found in the Bible. I don’t know if I have discovered the mystery, but this is what I came up with. If you think I have gotten it wrong, please help me find something better.
Max Man,
It was nice to hear from you Kwon. The firstborn concept was good, but have you ever thought of the firstborn in relation to Christ the first born of God: In Hebrews, God brought Jesus as the firstborn into the world and asks the angels to worship Him (Heb 1:6). In Col 1: 18 and Rev 1:5, Christ is said to be the first born from the dead.
Think of the children of Israel who were asked to give their firstborn children to God, literary to sanctify them as belonging to God. (Even the firstborn of animals and the first grains to ripen for harvest belonged to God). Could it be possible that Jesus is our firstborn due to the fact He was born of a woman, in order to bring us salvation, Mat 1:21; John 17:18, through our belief in Him and accepting Him, we have the right to become children of God; that is we are saved or justified by his blood (John 1:12-13)?
It was also interesting to hear of the law, if I interpret you right, that God put in place for humanity because He saw that we would need it in order “to get anything that we would ever want.” What was challenging the most to me was to read that humans were “going to need a lot of laws in place in order to overcome the obstacles they are going to encounter, while they are pursuing the dreams I am going to place in their hearts.” If the law was given to overcome challenges, how come Adam and Eve sinned by breaking the law? The fact that they sinned implies to me that the law did not help them meet their challenges and realize their dreams. It seems to me that the challenge humanity—Adam and Eve—faced was in keeping the law more than to use the law to overcome challenges.
Your discussion Kwon was good food for thought.
In response to Jason Hines's posting . . .
I enjoyed your thoughts on universal justification. I agree that universal legal justification could still be an appropriate term if redefined. After all Christ's death did universally justify everyone in the sense that it made provision for everyone's justification, almost like money in a bank account somewhere. The important point as you stated is that this justification is imputed on an individual basis as a result of personal faith. Thanks for your thoughts!
In response to Robert Carlson's blog . . .
Thanks for your thoughts on hope. I believe what you might be struggling with is the tension between knowing something intellectually in your head and feeling it in your heart. I have to believe you have hope of some kind, even if it is only intellectually, or else you could not do what you do (be a Christian and train for the pastoral ministry). I am with you though in the fact that I am not driven by hope the way the apostle Paul seemed to be. I desire that intensity of hope also. Thanks again for you blog!
in response to Myoung Kwon blog posting . . .
I appreciated your thoughts on the article by Angel Rodriquez (spelling ?) I especially liked your illustration of your broken car window. I connected with it in a special way because i too drive a used car that needs work from time to time. And it sure can get expensive. Obviously, no illustration tells the whole picture, but in a simple way it portrays the highlights of the plan of salvation. I also appreciated you emphasis on salvation being received by each individual's personal choice. People are not saved regardless of how they respond to the gift of Christ. Anyway, thanks again for your thoughts!
In response to Kessia Reyne blog assignment.
Your blog has been the most stimulating blog I have read so far. You touch on some incredible points like both our minimizing of sin and our laziness toward it. these days it seems a person is labeled a legalist if they even mention the idea of breaking through the Christian status quo to a place of higher spiritual advancement. I think you said it best when you suggested that as Christians we are lazy toward sin. I sounds like you had a pretty frustrating experience with a group of friends. I want to encourage you to keep pressing on keeping the goal of maturity in Christ at the forefront of everything you have to do this next semester. And know that there are others with similar feeling to yours.
This post is a response to Robert Carlson’s post regarding hope.
Robert, I appreciated your openness and honesty in regards to your struggle with the understanding of hope and how it plays out in your life. I agree with you that faith and love are two elements that we more than likely experience on a more frequent basis, but I feel somewhat at odds with your statement saying that the realness of hope is hard to know. You said the “idea” of hope makes sense to you and that you understand its definition, but its reality escapes you.
Without a doubt our life experiences have been different and I am in no way trying to challenge you here, I just wanted to share from my own experience about how hope has played out in my life. Hope has been a strength throughout my life because of the promise that lies after the peril. By clinging to hope in the Lord, dark days seem brighter, sorrow and sadness are overtaken by gladness and joy. Hope, to me, has been something that helps me get through hardships. It aids me when I am struggling and puts a new song in my heart.
As I think about hope and how it affects me it helps me to turn to some key passages in scripture that highlight these feelings. In Job 13:15 I see Job clinging to the hope that even though he feels like he is being slain, his hope is still in the Lord. Throughout Psalms I am told to put my hope in God, in His word and in His unfailing love, and that my hope comes from Him. Isaiah 40:31 tells me that my strength is renewed when I hope in the Lord. Romans 12:12 teaches me to be joyful in hope, and finally, Colossians tells me that Christ is the “hope” of glory. In this reference I believe we can equate our hope to salvation because Jesus Christ is our hope of glory and through our hope, His glory will be shown.
This post is a response to Austin Sharp:
Austin, I loved the way you equated Paul’s words in the first chapter of Romans as sounding like a brand new believer. It reminded me of the way we are to be “renewed” daily in Christ. Paul must have grabbed on to the fact that there is power available to all believers and for that reason he was not afraid to go forward in faith and preach the gospel boldly.
Paul connects this power to God’s salvation and how it is available to everyone (as you pointed out) and in that respect we need to be fully aware of the inclusivity of salvation. The gospel is the power of God for the salvation of EVERYONE who believes, for in the gospel a righteousness is revealed to us from God, therefore all who hear and adhere to it are able to receive power from God that will change their lives! With a message so powerful it seems easy to think we should ALL be charging forward as Paul did to proclaim this good news! My hope is that we will all seek to be transformed daily by the power of God and seek to share that “new born” enthusiasm with all we encounter.
This post is a response to Jason Hines:
Jason, great post about God’s foreknowledge and the idea of predestination. Those are two concepts that provide lots of thinking points for me as well. I too wonder if God has “given” us freedom to do what we choose and if He knows the outcome of all our choices, then how is that really freedom? I liked the way you said that it seems for our freedom to take place God must know the future in terms of possibilities and not actualities. I believe you are also right in assuming that leads to the idea that God then does not know what it actually going to happen, only a variety of possibilities to various outcomes (if that is the case).
So how are we to understand predestination and foreknowledge if they both conflict with our ideas of freedom? Dr. Hanna’s understanding of each idea helped my understanding as well. You said in your post that God’s will is that we be free and be saved, but that freedom comes first. It helps me to think of it the other way around because I see God’s first and foremost function with predestination being that we are ALL predestined to salvation through Jesus Christ. With this idea in mind, predestination makes sense to me. When I put our freedom before our salvation I start getting confused because salvation has to be available in order for us to choose whether or not we want to accept it therefore if God grants us freedom to choose first, my question is choose what? I think that God first predestines every human being to salvation and then gives them the freedom to accept or reject it. God’s foreknowledge knew what would take place on earth and He predestined a plan of salvation before creation so that we would be able to be free from sin and have a way out. I don’t think his freedom is forced on us in any way, I think His freedom is a gift as well as a curse because we are given a path we can choose to follow that will lead to eternal life but we are also left in a troublesome world with temptations constantly seeking to lead us astray. I don’t know if this has been much help for the struggle you were facing but I hope it has been beneficial in some way. It is fun to exercise our brains by trying to understand God but ultimately I believe that His ways are FAR beyond ours and there are many things we won’t know till we see Him face to face.
This post is a response to Kessia Reyne Bennett:
Kessia, your reflection on reconciliation was powerful and very thought provoking. I appreciated the way you brought us into a fuller understanding of the way reconciliation is used in the Gospels and in Acts as well as in various epistles. It was very helpful to me to see how the various verses worked together and helped build an understanding of it.
So how does reconciliation really work? Who does what, when, and how does it work? =) It seems clear from 2 Cor. 5:19 that there is significant reconciliatory work being done on the part of God the Father through His Son Jesus Christ. In this sense, like you said, we are reconciled to God, but there is also the implication in the text that there is a work of reconciliation that has been left by God for us. V.18 says that God has given us the ministry of reconciliation and later in v.19 says God has committed the message of reconciliation to us. This action, as you proposed, leaves reconciliation in the hands of both God and man. God reconciled man to Him through Christ and we are now left with the ministry of reconciliation as followers of Christ.
I think you are very right in suggesting that the reconciliation has taken place on God’s part but has failed in our hands. Isn’t that usually the case? God’s seeks to partner with us and commits Himself to us and WE are the ones that always break our side of the deal?! Praise God that our reconciliation through Christ has presented us holy in God’s eyes (Col. 1:22) and we are therefore free to move forward in faith and not be bogged down by our sins and brokenness. Your idea that in reconciliation we have the monergism of God on the cross and the synergism of our faithful response seems so fitting because it connects the two parties and adds, what seems to me, the additional element of our faith to the picture. Through our faith in Christ we are able to move forward in the ministry of reconciliation that has been presented to us through His example!
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