For years I have known that I could not make the leap with Adventists who say that the Spirit of Prophecy is the writing of Ellen G. White full stop. Finally I can explain it. Where my dilemma now lies is in the question of how God speaks to his messengers. Is His method different for those who have the Office of the Prophet as opposed to those who are in the general prophesying group? In addition is this general group yet futuristic and has Ellen White been the only one God has used since her first visions? The gospel was so simple to me and daily it seems to become more complicated. I am not sure I know exactly what it is anymore. I feel this need to return to the basics. Can I find my way spiritually through prayer and Bible Study without any of her books? Doesn’t my Bible say that I need no man to teach me save the Holy Spirit? What does God require of me but to do justly and walk humbly with my God? (Micah 6:8). I didn’t sign up for all these doctrines. I left the Roman Catholic Church to find truth and I constantly find more questions than answers. Then I pick up Steps to Christ and I read just the first few pages and I love it but my resistance to its writer is undaunted. It will take some time for the reality to sink in that The Holy Spirit of Truth is The Spirit of Prophecy. I have been bombarded with erroneous views. I learnt in class that if the messenger has a Christ centered message, exhibits the fruits of the Spirit, is in harmony with earlier prophets, and speaks according to God’s Word then they are a true messenger of the Lord. That should be enough for me, but I struggle. I think that putting White in the right biblical framework has helped me greatly. I do not see her as trying to usurp God’s role. I am aware now that she has been misinterpreted. I am aware that she has been persecuted and put on a pedestal at the same time. Both extremes have done damage to the cause of God. What I am seeking internally is to strike the right balance between her writings and the Bible in my own spiritual construct. As I write this previous sentence I sense that my four years studying Postmodernism and its rejection of any one truth has had its impact on my psyche. Writing essays and saying what is expected to get an “A” in Public University haunts me now. Writing now what is expected to get an “A” in Christian University will haunt me later. I must get rid of my demons now and through honest reporting. How else does the Spirit speak to us but through His gifts? I don’t know. There is so much to learn about God and how he works. I agree that we need a wholistic view of Christ and prophecy and all things spiritual. I agree that God does give gifts to different people. I agree that God does want many messengers. I know that when we come from other denominations we bring baggage that is sometimes difficult to download. It takes years to fully understand some fundamental truths and some we grasp readily. Each of us must be fully convinced in his own mind. Six months ago I didn’t want to hear a word about Ellen White. Six months later God has answered my prayer to decipher truth by placing in a class about her life and writings. I accept that her life and ministry is part of the ministration of the Holy Spirit. I understand that she may be referred to as someone who possessed the Spirit of Prophecy. This statement is preferable to the statement that she is the latter. I recognize that many individuals do not have a proper understanding and they do not realize they are speaking figuratively. I look forward to studying her life closely to get a more realistic and softened version of her personality in my imagination. Stern and rigid is my first impression of her.
I also have struggled with what to do with E G White. I was brought up as an SDA and believed that she was what the Church said that she was. When I read your post, I saw myself. I went back and attempted to follow your route. I went to Steps to Christ and read Chapter 1. On page 9 she writes: “God made man perfectly holy and happy; and the fair earth, as it came from the Creator's hand, bore no blight of decay or shadow of the curse. It is transgression of God's law--the law of love--that has brought woe and death. Yet even amid the suffering that results from sin, God's love is revealed. It is written that God cursed the ground for man's sake. Genesis 3:17. The thorn and the thistle--the difficulties and trials that make his life one of toil and care--were appointed for his good as a part of the training needful in God's plan for his uplifting from the ruin and degradation that sin has wrought.” I believe that this passage, while not her complete writings, fairly represent the ‘flavor’ of her writings, both in this book and others. At the beginning she states that God made man ‘perfect, holy, and happy’. Presumably she got this from her vision(s). In the next sentence she says that ‘amid the suffering…God’s love is revealed’. Next sentence she quotes the Bible at Genesis 3:17 saying that “difficulties and trials were appointed for his good as a part of the training needful in God’s plan…”. The picture I see here is what causes me the problems in reconciling the picture that I get of God from studying the Bible for the purpose of getting the ‘message’ rather than just reading the words. Over and over I find her picturing God as the Father who spanks his son when his son disobeys him. Each time he spanks his son when he is finished he takes his son in his arms and tells him that he only has to spank him as a way of showing his love for him. After an especially energetic session of the father spanking and the wrapping his arms around his son, the father says “you do understand, don’t you son, that I only have to spank you because I love you?” The son responds to his father looking him strait in the eye and says; “yes, I do dad, and I am looking forward to the day when I grow up so that I can show you how much I love you too.” Since I started studying the Bible and focusing on it, I have found a very benevolent Father who accepts me the way I am, not looking for opportunities to ‘train me’. I suggest reading Matthew 5 every day for 3 months. If you do that, I believe that the Holy Spirit will guide you into an understanding, such that you will find what you are looking for when you get back to basics.
TaxMan that was a great story about the father and son relationship depicting the so- called love and the love we find in scripture. Thanks for the suggestion about reading Mt. 5 and I to am confident that the Holy Spirit will lead as we keep our eyes focused on Him.
Hey Willock, Well put and I am happy to be on this journey with you. I still find that I have scars from the early introduction of EGW I encountered growing up. I know God will lead us through these weeks as we look to gain a new picture and find a renewed idea of the who EGW was and is.
I am responding to Debbie's comment. I think that so much of what you have said are things that I agree with. I do think that we have done the minstry of EGW a disservice at times by presenting a view of her ministry that is not entirely accurate. And while thosse people are mostly well-meaning, it has at times done more harm than good. The issue of the gospel is also compelling. Is it possible for something to be both simple and complex at the same time?
I am responding to Leo's comment. I am in total agreement with what you wrote. Although we each have are own particular challenges, we do have to deal with these three major areas that you pointed out.
I agree. It is very fascinating to look at what God was able to do through the life and ministry of Ellen White. It kind of puts us in a position to investigate our own lives. Though we want to compare our lives with the life of Christ and not use Ellen White as our model, looking at what she has been used to accomplish leaves little room for the lack of possibilities of what God could do with our own. Imagine the reality of the difficulties of that day, and reflect, how much are we getting accomplished for the Lord? How much time are we wasting on temporary things? How much more would God do through us? Just a personal question I asked myself as I read your posting.
In response to Willock... You said "stern and rigid" were your first impressions of Ellen White. I can relate to that. Though our backgrounds are quite different, I had that as my first understanding of her as well. I was born into an Adventist family of 5 generations. My mother was much relaxed compared to my grandparents, and any doctrine or teachings that I got definately came from my grandmother, and not my mother. My grandparents were very kind and loving, very faithful to God, helped raise many churches and worked as teachers on the reservations as a ministry. But when it came to passing on values and understanding, I recieved Ellen White as a very stern and rigid person from the manner in which she was used to teach me by my grandmother. Isn't it amazing that such a precious gift of the Holy Spirit has been given? And while it has been given, Satan has been very clever at trying to get us to use this gift of the Spirit in such a negative presentation that we do more damage than good with the gift God has given us.
I wish to comment on Jason's story during his youth. The struggle that the guy experienced to decide between The Bible and The White writings is probably indicative of a large segment of Adventist believers. I can imagine your exasperation at that juncture in your Christian development. The interesting turn of events is that now having come to a proper understanding of the nature of inspiration and the correct framework to place her writings you will be an amazing tool in the hand of God. This is not only for young people but for us older people who don't realize the effects we sometimes have on young people when we don't spend enough time in searching for a correct understanding of the things of God. I appreciate your comment because it speaks to the nature of God that he who began a great work in you and in us is able to complete it in his timing.
I am responding to Leo's comment. Why are we all so quick to judge others? This is my biggest weakness. It took along time to admit it. Pyschology suggests that this is because I really don't feel good about myself and so look for discrepancies in the lives of others to build my own self esteem. There is potentially some truth to that but I prefer what Johann Staupitz suggested to Martin Luther.The wording is more complimentary. He said we preach best what we need to learn most. I have comtemplated this statement a lot lately as I start thinking about pastoring, preaching and this call from God. Maybe that's why we see certain faults so clearly in others and feel we must expound on these weaknesses. I really love how open and honest you were in your remarks. That my friend is the beginning of your healing in that regard. I am proud of you.
Andrew... I love Harriet Tubman's story. I find your research interesting. How do we tie this into class discussions. Well for starters does our theory that The Holy Spirit can use whom He pleases hold for Harriet Tubman? I remember that she was told that someone would bring her a particular sum of money before it actually happened. Her nickname was Moses if I recall correctly. Can our view of inspiration include the likes of Tubman and her cloak and dagger escapades? This is a story I want to read more about. It forces me to confront the slogans that I so glibly confirm as my beliefs. I feel a tension between accepting her as part of the spiritual church as a "regular" Christian but I struggle with allowing her the freedom to be inspired in any unique way by The Holy Spirit who is The Spirit of Prophecy. Wow! I thought I was so clear on that point.When we are faced with real life situations that test our belief systems it is so different to dialoguing in the safe environment of the academic classroom. I really appreciate your comments.
Rodrigo... Let each be fully convinced in his own mind I say. I have known people who have come to Christ only through one of the writings of Ellen G. White. I heard the testimony of ayoung man who returned after 30 years in the world. God used the book Last Day Events when no opportunity for bible study could penetrate his darkness. By contrast I have heard ministers condemn the use of her writings in the pulpit and along the continuum I have seen almost every position on that issue in practice. I once heard a statement that said that it was blasphemy to attribute anything that The Holy Spirit has done to the devil and anything that the devil has done to God. I use that as my benchmark and so I agree with you that there will be times that her writing in witnessing will play the role of the lesser light pointing to the greater light. I am referring to witnessing to non Adventists. Conversely there will be times when that method will not be advisable. When one relinquishes their childhood beliefs such as saints, devotion to Mary and the whole range of idols it is not easily replaced by any other seemingly competing recipient. Of necessity there will be a struggle. Many Catholic and Anglican people perceive all these Protestant denominations as little offshoots of the Mother Church. They don't think you have the right to declare any prophets. The books can be effective when presnted apart from a sermon for some. It is less threatening. The bottopm line is that it is the Holy Spirit's call in each and every situation. Your points are food for thought and I will be listening intently as to how various preachers incorporate White's writings in their discourses. Thank you for presenting this stimulating topic which begs for deeper analysis.
I am responding to Rodrigo's comment from July 16. I agree that it is an understanding of the misuse of EGW's writings that caused her to say that we should not use them. Furthermore, I think it was the fact that she would not necessarily be accepted by people outside of the faith that caused her to remove herself from the equation. But I think that also brings up an important point. While she is a useful author, she is also not mandatory for witnessing because of her subordination to the scriptures.
I am responding to Andrew's comment from 07-16-09. I do think it is somewhat ironic (?) that we find similar experiences in this way. I think what is also interesting about that is that very few people are critical of Tubman's visions.
I just wanted to comment on Rodrigo's post titled "THE PROBLEMS OF MISUSING PROPHETS." I agree with you on this and truly believe that it's not only a matter of how or when but an issue of balance also. I grew up with so many quotations from the pulpit using EGW and little Bible. This pushed me away and I was raised in the church a "believer" if you will. I will continue to allow the Spirit to lead me as when I speak so as to not be out of balance or misuse EGW. Thanks for the thoughts Rodrigo!
I am responding to Debbie's comment from 07-16-09. I had never heard of the problems between Bolton and White. I would love to hear more about it sometime. I think the bus ministry that you have is great. What impressed me the most if that you have also realized that you can learn as much from the people you meet as they can from you.
I am responding to Leo's comment from 07-23-09. I would think that we all struggle with sight as opposed to faith at times. I think God understands this though. For this reason God does give us signs to increase our faith. I think the problem comes when we demand a sign, as if God has to prove Himself to us.
Jason I am thinking of the counsel to all of us that no matter what we see or hear in the next few years in the church that we are to stay on board the ship. I am apalled by our involvement as a church body in certain facets of society but I recognize that the pen of inspiration says that "the church will appear as though it were about to fall." God's will is not thwarted by problems and though your zeal may one day be frustrated by unresponsive individuals, endure to the end. The reality is that one day religious liberty will cease.
I am responding to Leo's comment on 7-26. I agree with you Leo that we have in some ways fallen out of touch with our society, using methods that worked many years ago, but don't seem to work now. I think this connected to the idea that we cling to what was done because we know it was right at one point. But we do need to consider updating many things about how we accomplish the work in the last days.
I am responding to Debbie's comment from 07-23-09. You bring up a lot of interesting issues Debbie. While I may agree with you about the system of organization in abstract, I do think that we have removed the spirit of God from the process at times and we have become to "political," trusting the process instead of trusting God. I don't know what the answer is to the reorganization of the church, but I think we should still be asking the question. As to the centralization of the church, it seems like you are saying that we should kick people out of the church if they don't hold to certain beliefs. I'm not totslly sure if I'm ok with that. However, I do think that some of the winds of doctrine that we see are because we have tried to sweep legitimate questions under the rug by saying, "do as I say," instead of addressing serious concerns.
In response to Debbie's post of 7-23 about dreams.
In reflection to your statements about the use of dreams as revelation from God, I reviewed chapter 2 of our textbook, particularly page 9, which the author states that dreams are indeed a way that God has chosen to speak to mankind at different times in His-story. I think to hold the idea that God doesn't speak through dreams is to ignore one avenue God has used in the past. I myself have had particular instances when I have dreamed a dream and awoke with an understanding that God was giving me personal direction in response to prayers and situations I was facing, both in my personal struggles against sin and in my difficulties knowing how to handle situations in ministry, God has directed me in dreams. It is not my preferred method though. I would like to hear the voice of God booming through the turmoil of this world and hear the voice out of nowhere. But that is not how God has chosen to talk to me in the past, and I am ok with that. But not every dream I have had is a direction from God. In fact very few could be recognized as anything from God. I don't think we can exclude dreams as an avenue for God to speak to us. "Old men will dream dreams and young men will see vision". I think sometimes we may see less of the manifestation of the gifts of the Spirit and Revelations from God because we can not believe that He is truly capable of working them. We do have to take great precaution though to ensure the authenticity of such things.
Debbie, I agree with your 2nd post for 7-30. I think it is very important to remember the humanity of the prophet, and to realize that when there is a prophet, it is Divinity working through Humanity. It is helpful to see one who was used for such a great work, was able to portray herself as one who was continually growing, and prone to correction from God. Her humility to correct her words when directed to do so by God is a model for us to all adopt.
Andrew Your point on our attitude to the lives of the disciples is well taken. As ministers of the gospel people will hold us inevitably to a standard higher than they deem for themselves. Yes the counsel to the elders is to have one partner and to have a high level of integrity but this is really a calling for all followers of Christ. Should the barometer be different for the shepherds? I was guilty of having a greater expectation of pastors than for myself. That was until I came to the seminary. Meeting so many likeminded people with the same challenges and facing the same enemy of souls I realize that the pressure on shepherds is probably greater than many imagine. Indeed Ellen White would have faced tremendous struggles. Never mind the church members and their unreasonable expectations but internal struggles. The why me's and the doubts and the what would my life had been like if I hadn't been hit with a stone. When God sends you on an assignment and trials come it is harder to deal with. Singing special music and getting accolades after, is a great assignment but going into vision and exhorting those who willfully sin is no bed of roses. Just trying to remain humble while God uses you is hard enough.The disciples and Ellen White were just regular people who decided to say yes to Jesus. The challenge for all of us will be to continue saying yes daily.
Leo I am commenting on your statements about the problematic methods some employ to do evangelism. Last summer I went door to door with some members. The method used was to carry the book The Ten Commandments for distribution. Of course they did not tell me until we were practically in front of the doors that I couldn't give the book because it was too expensive. Instead I was to tell the homeowner that I would be lending them the book and returning for it in two weeks. I wasn't comfortable with that and needless to say I ticked off the team because I gave the book away. My point is that evangelism has gotten waylaid by our finite understanding of The Holy Spirit and how He works. Secondly we all have different styles yet many times it is as we discussed in class, reduced to a black or white issue. I had the faith that God could replenish the stock of books and provide for their payments if we gave them for free. Others felt that the books were expensive and we should lend them out.Why put undue pressure on the Lord. So I was to offer a God to people who could not even afford to give a few $9.95 books for free. I am laughing as I type this. It is ludicrous to me but maybe I am too liberal in my thinking.The reality is we got the books for free and just paid for the shipping. The alternative was that tons of the books would sit in the Personal Ministry Room for years. Go figure. This story illustrates the necessity for us as ministers to have systematic daily personal devotion with the Lord and to consistently read the Spirit of Prophecy that we be able to resist the temptation to lose our cool.
Jason I don't think I was thinking about kicking people out of the church for their varied beliefs while I was writing. So I reread my statement to see how you got that impression.I see .It was not my intent at the time.Oddly enough I am questioning now if that is such a bad thing in certain cases.It is a complicated issue. Sometimes you have to just stop a runaway train.I do feel that extensive dialoguing is necessary depending on the belief and if the person holds an official position in the church. Some viewpoints are cancerous.Some people can disagree without having a poisonous effect on the larger group while others are determined to undermine. Laity can believe what they wish but I think it differs for those who can make official statements on behalf of the organization.My reasoning comes from my ministries with the young people. So often the church guards the front door with deadbolts , latches and the works but leaves their sliding door open at the back of the house and the enemy of souls just walks right in. We sometimes just put whoever is willing to work downstairs with the children's department because we are desperate because no one is volunteering.It is important what you believe when you train the youth. Often they don't have the wisdom nor discernment to distinguish between an angel of light and a hidden agenda.
Last night I came back here to read what others had written. I learn from others sharing their perspective on what they see when they look at the same thing I am interested in and looking at. I relate to some of the writers and cannot figure out what others share so elequently. The thing that I think this morning is that I learned something from this 'session'. A few of the postings refered to 'sleep' as being an enviornment or vehicle of/for communication from God to human. As I was laying in bed waking up my mind went (as it often does) to what I had been thinking about when I went to bed. God communicating with his 'children'. That is the way I look at it. The most important thing, I believe, in understanding the message being recieved is to understand the sender. My relationship with God will affect the picture in my mind of what He is and what He wants for me, and for me that is what it is all about. In both Matthew and Luke 11 we have a quote from Jesus relating to how He invites us to see 'our' (yours, mine, and His) Father. This has taken on a very large part in my forming a relationship with him. My wife is my friend. A Catholic couple at a Marriage Encounter Weekend get together back in the 1970's at Andrews University made the statement that the marriage relationship is designed to be one where each party stands in God's place before each other, and that when we relate to each other we are actually fellowshiping with God. Some may not agree with them, but in the 30 some years, I have concluded that for my purpose, they got it right. I have a son who doesn't agree with much of anything that I say. I said something the other day to my wife and she said "you really do love your son, don't you?" I said "yes. He could be doing so much, but is just floundering in comparison to what he could be doing." I had so much hope for him taking over my business, but he just couldn't bring himself to do it." I have thought about this and believe that this is the way that God feels and relates to us. I do not condem him for not doing what I tell him to do. I used to believe that when I do not do what He admonishes or Commands or whatever term we wish to use, that we were going to have to ask for forgiveness in order to avoid being burnt in the fire. I no longer believe this. I am now a 'non-believer' in what religion taught me (although I still believe a lot of things that religion teaches), but I am also a 'believer' and am experiencing a relationship in/with my Father that I didn't have years ago. As to having to train others to believe the way I do, that is not nessessary for me. I share my thoughts, and if others are helped -That is Good-, and if they are not, then I hope they will throw it away and not be harmed by it. I also have had many helpful thoughts that come to me after or during my sleep that add another piece to the picture I am putting together as God attempts to communicate with me.
26 comments:
For years I have known that I could not make the leap with Adventists who say that the Spirit of Prophecy is the writing of Ellen G. White full stop. Finally I can explain it. Where my dilemma now lies is in the question of how God speaks to his messengers. Is His method different for those who have the Office of the Prophet as opposed to those who are in the general prophesying group? In addition is this general group yet futuristic and has Ellen White been the only one God has used since her first visions? The gospel was so simple to me and daily it seems to become more complicated. I am not sure I know exactly what it is anymore. I feel this need to return to the basics. Can I find my way spiritually through prayer and Bible Study without any of her books? Doesn’t my Bible say that I need no man to teach me save the Holy Spirit? What does God require of me but to do justly and walk humbly with my God? (Micah 6:8). I didn’t sign up for all these doctrines. I left the Roman Catholic Church to find truth and I constantly find more questions than answers. Then I pick up Steps to Christ and I read just the first few pages and I love it but my resistance to its writer is undaunted. It will take some time for the reality to sink in that The Holy Spirit of Truth is The Spirit of Prophecy. I have been bombarded with erroneous views. I learnt in class that if the messenger has a Christ centered message, exhibits the fruits of the Spirit, is in harmony with earlier prophets, and speaks according to God’s Word then they are a true messenger of the Lord. That should be enough for me, but I struggle. I think that putting White in the right biblical framework has helped me greatly. I do not see her as trying to usurp God’s role. I am aware now that she has been misinterpreted. I am aware that she has been persecuted and put on a pedestal at the same time. Both extremes have done damage to the cause of God. What I am seeking internally is to strike the right balance between her writings and the Bible in my own spiritual construct. As I write this previous sentence I sense that my four years studying Postmodernism and its rejection of any one truth has had its impact on my psyche. Writing essays and saying what is expected to get an “A” in Public University haunts me now. Writing now what is expected to get an “A” in Christian University will haunt me later. I must get rid of my demons now and through honest reporting. How else does the Spirit speak to us but through His gifts? I don’t know. There is so much to learn about God and how he works. I agree that we need a wholistic view of Christ and prophecy and all things spiritual. I agree that God does give gifts to different people. I agree that God does want many messengers. I know that when we come from other denominations we bring baggage that is sometimes difficult to download. It takes years to fully understand some fundamental truths and some we grasp readily. Each of us must be fully convinced in his own mind. Six months ago I didn’t want to hear a word about Ellen White. Six months later God has answered my prayer to decipher truth by placing in a class about her life and writings. I accept that her life and ministry is part of the ministration of the Holy Spirit. I understand that she may be referred to as someone who possessed the Spirit of Prophecy. This statement is preferable to the statement that she is the latter. I recognize that many individuals do not have a proper understanding and they do not realize they are speaking figuratively. I look forward to studying her life closely to get a more realistic and softened version of her personality in my imagination. Stern and rigid is my first impression of her.
I also have struggled with what to do with E G White. I was brought up as an SDA and believed that she was what the Church said that she was. When I read your post, I saw myself. I went back and attempted to follow your route. I went to Steps to Christ and read Chapter 1. On page 9 she writes: “God made man perfectly holy and happy; and the fair earth, as it came from the Creator's hand, bore no blight of decay or shadow of the curse. It is transgression of God's law--the law of love--that has brought woe and death. Yet even amid the suffering that results from sin, God's love is revealed. It is written that God cursed the ground for man's sake. Genesis 3:17. The thorn and the thistle--the difficulties and trials that make his life one of toil and care--were appointed for his good as a part of the training needful in God's plan for his uplifting from the ruin and degradation that sin has wrought.” I believe that this passage, while not her complete writings, fairly represent the ‘flavor’ of her writings, both in this book and others. At the beginning she states that God made man ‘perfect, holy, and happy’. Presumably she got this from her vision(s). In the next sentence she says that ‘amid the suffering…God’s love is revealed’. Next sentence she quotes the Bible at Genesis 3:17 saying that “difficulties and trials were appointed for his good as a part of the training needful in God’s plan…”. The picture I see here is what causes me the problems in reconciling the picture that I get of God from studying the Bible for the purpose of getting the ‘message’ rather than just reading the words. Over and over I find her picturing God as the Father who spanks his son when his son disobeys him. Each time he spanks his son when he is finished he takes his son in his arms and tells him that he only has to spank him as a way of showing his love for him. After an especially energetic session of the father spanking and the wrapping his arms around his son, the father says “you do understand, don’t you son, that I only have to spank you because I love you?” The son responds to his father looking him strait in the eye and says; “yes, I do dad, and I am looking forward to the day when I grow up so that I can show you how much I love you too.” Since I started studying the Bible and focusing on it, I have found a very benevolent Father who accepts me the way I am, not looking for opportunities to ‘train me’. I suggest reading Matthew 5 every day for 3 months. If you do that, I believe that the Holy Spirit will guide you into an understanding, such that you will find what you are looking for when you get back to basics.
TaxMan that was a great story about the father and son relationship depicting the so- called love and the love we find in scripture. Thanks for the suggestion about reading Mt. 5 and I to am confident that the Holy Spirit will lead as we keep our eyes focused on Him.
Hey Willock,
Well put and I am happy to be on this journey with you. I still find that I have scars from the early introduction of EGW I encountered growing up. I know God will lead us through these weeks as we look to gain a new picture and find a renewed idea of the who EGW was and is.
I am responding to Debbie's comment. I think that so much of what you have said are things that I agree with. I do think that we have done the minstry of EGW a disservice at times by presenting a view of her ministry that is not entirely accurate. And while thosse people are mostly well-meaning, it has at times done more harm than good. The issue of the gospel is also compelling. Is it possible for something to be both simple and complex at the same time?
I am responding to Leo's comment. I am in total agreement with what you wrote. Although we each have are own particular challenges, we do have to deal with these three major areas that you pointed out.
In response to Jason Hines...
I agree. It is very fascinating to look at what God was able to do through the life and ministry of Ellen White. It kind of puts us in a position to investigate our own lives. Though we want to compare our lives with the life of Christ and not use Ellen White as our model, looking at what she has been used to accomplish leaves little room for the lack of possibilities of what God could do with our own. Imagine the reality of the difficulties of that day, and reflect, how much are we getting accomplished for the Lord? How much time are we wasting on temporary things? How much more would God do through us? Just a personal question I asked myself as I read your posting.
In response to Willock... You said "stern and rigid" were your first impressions of Ellen White. I can relate to that. Though our backgrounds are quite different, I had that as my first understanding of her as well. I was born into an Adventist family of 5 generations. My mother was much relaxed compared to my grandparents, and any doctrine or teachings that I got definately came from my grandmother, and not my mother. My grandparents were very kind and loving, very faithful to God, helped raise many churches and worked as teachers on the reservations as a ministry. But when it came to passing on values and understanding, I recieved Ellen White as a very stern and rigid person from the manner in which she was used to teach me by my grandmother. Isn't it amazing that such a precious gift of the Holy Spirit has been given? And while it has been given, Satan has been very clever at trying to get us to use this gift of the Spirit in such a negative presentation that we do more damage than good with the gift God has given us.
I wish to comment on Jason's story during his youth. The struggle that the guy experienced to decide between The Bible and The White writings is probably indicative of a large segment of Adventist believers. I can imagine your exasperation at that juncture in your Christian development. The interesting turn of events is that now having come to a proper understanding of the nature of inspiration and the correct framework to place her writings you will be an amazing tool in the hand of God. This is not only for young people but for us older people who don't realize the effects we sometimes have on young people when we don't spend enough time in searching for a correct understanding of the things of God. I appreciate your comment because it speaks to the nature of God that he who began a great work in you and in us is able to complete it in his timing.
I am responding to Leo's comment. Why are we all so quick to judge others? This is my biggest weakness. It took along time to admit it. Pyschology suggests that this is because I really don't feel good about myself and so look for discrepancies in the lives of others to build my own self esteem. There is potentially some truth to that but I prefer what Johann Staupitz suggested to Martin Luther.The wording is more complimentary. He said we preach best what we need to learn most. I have comtemplated this statement a lot lately as I start thinking about pastoring, preaching and this call from God. Maybe that's why we see certain faults so clearly in others and feel we must expound on these weaknesses. I really love how open and honest you were in your remarks. That my friend is the beginning of your healing in that regard. I am proud of you.
Andrew...
I love Harriet Tubman's story. I find your research interesting. How do we tie this into class discussions. Well for starters does our theory that The Holy Spirit can use whom He pleases hold for Harriet Tubman? I remember that she was told that someone would bring her a particular sum of money before it actually happened. Her nickname was Moses if I recall correctly. Can our view of inspiration include the likes of Tubman and her cloak and dagger escapades? This is a story I want to read more about. It forces me to confront the slogans that I so glibly confirm as my beliefs. I feel a tension between accepting her as part of the spiritual church as a "regular" Christian but I struggle with allowing her the freedom to be inspired in any unique way by The Holy Spirit who is The Spirit of Prophecy. Wow! I thought I was so clear on that point.When we are faced with real life situations that test our belief systems it is so different to dialoguing in the safe environment of the academic classroom. I really appreciate your comments.
Rodrigo...
Let each be fully convinced in his own mind I say. I have known people who have come to Christ only through one of the writings of Ellen G. White. I heard the testimony of ayoung man who returned after 30 years in the world. God used the book Last Day Events when no opportunity for bible study could penetrate his darkness. By contrast I have heard ministers condemn the use of her writings in the pulpit and along the continuum I have seen almost every position on that issue in practice. I once heard a statement that said that it was blasphemy to attribute anything that The Holy Spirit has done to the devil and anything that the devil has done to God. I use that as my benchmark and so I agree with you that there will be times that her writing in witnessing will play the role of the lesser light pointing to the greater light. I am referring to witnessing to non Adventists. Conversely there will be times when that method will not be advisable. When one relinquishes their childhood beliefs such as saints, devotion to Mary and the whole range of idols it is not easily replaced by any other seemingly competing recipient. Of necessity there will be a struggle. Many Catholic and Anglican people perceive all these Protestant denominations as little offshoots of the Mother Church. They don't think you have the right to declare any prophets. The books can be effective when presnted apart from a sermon for some. It is less threatening. The bottopm line is that it is the Holy Spirit's call in each and every situation. Your points are food for thought and I will be listening intently as to how various preachers incorporate White's writings in their discourses. Thank you for presenting this stimulating topic which begs for deeper analysis.
I am responding to Rodrigo's comment from July 16. I agree that it is an understanding of the misuse of EGW's writings that caused her to say that we should not use them. Furthermore, I think it was the fact that she would not necessarily be accepted by people outside of the faith that caused her to remove herself from the equation. But I think that also brings up an important point. While she is a useful author, she is also not mandatory for witnessing because of her subordination to the scriptures.
I am responding to Andrew's comment from 07-16-09. I do think it is somewhat ironic (?) that we find similar experiences in this way. I think what is also interesting about that is that very few people are critical of Tubman's visions.
I just wanted to comment on Rodrigo's post titled "THE PROBLEMS OF MISUSING PROPHETS." I agree with you on this and truly believe that it's not only a matter of how or when but an issue of balance also. I grew up with so many quotations from the pulpit using EGW and little Bible. This pushed me away and I was raised in the church a "believer" if you will. I will continue to allow the Spirit to lead me as when I speak so as to not be out of balance or misuse EGW. Thanks for the thoughts Rodrigo!
I am responding to Debbie's comment from 07-16-09. I had never heard of the problems between Bolton and White. I would love to hear more about it sometime. I think the bus ministry that you have is great. What impressed me the most if that you have also realized that you can learn as much from the people you meet as they can from you.
I am responding to Leo's comment from 07-23-09. I would think that we all struggle with sight as opposed to faith at times. I think God understands this though. For this reason God does give us signs to increase our faith. I think the problem comes when we demand a sign, as if God has to prove Himself to us.
Jason
I am thinking of the counsel to all of us that no matter what we see or hear in the next few years in the church that we are to stay on board the ship. I am apalled by our involvement as a church body in certain facets of society but I recognize that the pen of inspiration says that "the church will appear as though it were about to fall." God's will is not thwarted by problems and though your zeal may one day be frustrated by unresponsive individuals, endure to the end. The reality is that one day religious liberty will cease.
I am responding to Leo's comment on 7-26. I agree with you Leo that we have in some ways fallen out of touch with our society, using methods that worked many years ago, but don't seem to work now. I think this connected to the idea that we cling to what was done because we know it was right at one point. But we do need to consider updating many things about how we accomplish the work in the last days.
I am responding to Debbie's comment from 07-23-09. You bring up a lot of interesting issues Debbie. While I may agree with you about the system of organization in abstract, I do think that we have removed the spirit of God from the process at times and we have become to "political," trusting the process instead of trusting God. I don't know what the answer is to the reorganization of the church, but I think we should still be asking the question. As to the centralization of the church, it seems like you are saying that we should kick people out of the church if they don't hold to certain beliefs. I'm not totslly sure if I'm ok with that. However, I do think that some of the winds of doctrine that we see are because we have tried to sweep legitimate questions under the rug by saying, "do as I say," instead of addressing serious concerns.
In response to Debbie's post of 7-23 about dreams.
In reflection to your statements about the use of dreams as revelation from God, I reviewed chapter 2 of our textbook, particularly page 9, which the author states that dreams are indeed a way that God has chosen to speak to mankind at different times in His-story. I think to hold the idea that God doesn't speak through dreams is to ignore one avenue God has used in the past. I myself have had particular instances when I have dreamed a dream and awoke with an understanding that God was giving me personal direction in response to prayers and situations I was facing, both in my personal struggles against sin and in my difficulties knowing how to handle situations in ministry, God has directed me in dreams. It is not my preferred method though. I would like to hear the voice of God booming through the turmoil of this world and hear the voice out of nowhere. But that is not how God has chosen to talk to me in the past, and I am ok with that. But not every dream I have had is a direction from God. In fact very few could be recognized as anything from God. I don't think we can exclude dreams as an avenue for God to speak to us. "Old men will dream dreams and young men will see vision". I think sometimes we may see less of the manifestation of the gifts of the Spirit and Revelations from God because we can not believe that He is truly capable of working them. We do have to take great precaution though to ensure the authenticity of such things.
Debbie, I agree with your 2nd post for 7-30. I think it is very important to remember the humanity of the prophet, and to realize that when there is a prophet, it is Divinity working through Humanity. It is helpful to see one who was used for such a great work, was able to portray herself as one who was continually growing, and prone to correction from God. Her humility to correct her words when directed to do so by God is a model for us to all adopt.
Andrew
Your point on our attitude to the lives of the disciples is well taken. As ministers of the gospel people will hold us inevitably to a standard higher than they deem for themselves. Yes the counsel to the elders is to have one partner and to have a high level of integrity but this is really a calling for all followers of Christ. Should the barometer be different for the shepherds? I was guilty of having a greater expectation of pastors than for myself. That was until I came to the seminary. Meeting so many likeminded people with the same challenges and facing the same enemy of souls I realize that the pressure on shepherds is probably greater than many imagine. Indeed Ellen White would have faced tremendous struggles. Never mind the church members and their unreasonable expectations but internal struggles. The why me's and the doubts and the what would my life had been like if I hadn't been hit with a stone. When God sends you on an assignment and trials come it is harder to deal with. Singing special music and getting accolades after, is a great assignment but going into vision and exhorting those who willfully sin is no bed of roses. Just trying to remain humble while God uses you is hard enough.The disciples and Ellen White were just regular people who decided to say yes to Jesus. The challenge for all of us will be to continue saying yes daily.
Leo
I am commenting on your statements about the problematic methods some employ to do evangelism. Last summer I went door to door with some members. The method used was to carry the book The Ten Commandments for distribution. Of course they did not tell me until we were practically in front of the doors that I couldn't give the book because it was too expensive. Instead I was to tell the homeowner that I would be lending them the book and returning for it in two weeks. I wasn't comfortable with that and needless to say I ticked off the team because I gave the book away. My point is that evangelism has gotten waylaid by our finite understanding of The Holy Spirit and how He works. Secondly we all have different styles yet many times it is as we discussed in class, reduced to a black or white issue. I had the faith that God could replenish the stock of books and provide for their payments if we gave them for free. Others felt that the books were expensive and we should lend them out.Why put undue pressure on the Lord. So I was to offer a God to people who could not even afford to give a few $9.95 books for free. I am laughing as I type this. It is ludicrous to me but maybe I am too liberal in my thinking.The reality is we got the books for free and just paid for the shipping. The alternative was that tons of the books would sit in the Personal Ministry Room for years. Go figure. This story illustrates the necessity for us as ministers to have systematic daily personal devotion with the Lord and to consistently read the Spirit of Prophecy that we be able to resist the temptation to lose our cool.
Jason
I don't think I was thinking about kicking people out of the church for their varied beliefs while I was writing. So I reread my statement to see how you got that impression.I see .It was not my intent at the time.Oddly enough I am questioning now if that is such a bad thing in certain cases.It is a complicated issue. Sometimes you have to just stop a runaway train.I do feel that extensive dialoguing is necessary depending on the belief and if the person holds an official position in the church. Some viewpoints are cancerous.Some people can disagree without having a poisonous effect on the larger group while others are determined to undermine. Laity can believe what they wish but I think it differs for those who can make official statements on behalf of the organization.My reasoning comes from my ministries with the young people. So often the church guards the front door with deadbolts , latches and the works but leaves their sliding door open at the back of the house and the enemy of souls just walks right in. We sometimes just put whoever is willing to work downstairs with the children's department because we are desperate because no one is volunteering.It is important what you believe when you train the youth. Often they don't have the wisdom nor discernment to distinguish between an angel of light and a hidden agenda.
Last night I came back here to read what others had written. I learn from others sharing their perspective on what they see when they look at the same thing I am interested in and looking at. I relate to some of the writers and cannot figure out what others share so elequently. The thing that I think this morning is that I learned something from this 'session'. A few of the postings refered to 'sleep' as being an enviornment or vehicle of/for communication from God to human. As I was laying in bed waking up my mind went (as it often does) to what I had been thinking about when I went to bed. God communicating with his 'children'. That is the way I look at it. The most important thing, I believe, in understanding the message being recieved is to understand the sender. My relationship with God will affect the picture in my mind of what He is and what He wants for me, and for me that is what it is all about. In both Matthew and Luke 11 we have a quote from Jesus relating to how He invites us to see 'our' (yours, mine, and His) Father. This has taken on a very large part in my forming a relationship with him. My wife is my friend. A Catholic couple at a Marriage Encounter Weekend get together back in the 1970's at Andrews University made the statement that the marriage relationship is designed to be one where each party stands in God's place before each other, and that when we relate to each other we are actually fellowshiping with God. Some may not agree with them, but in the 30 some years, I have concluded that for my purpose, they got it right. I have a son who doesn't agree with much of anything that I say. I said something the other day to my wife and she said "you really do love your son, don't you?" I said "yes. He could be doing so much, but is just floundering in comparison to what he could be doing." I had so much hope for him taking over my business, but he just couldn't bring himself to do it." I have thought about this and believe that this is the way that God feels and relates to us. I do not condem him for not doing what I tell him to do. I used to believe that when I do not do what He admonishes or Commands or whatever term we wish to use, that we were going to have to ask for forgiveness in order to avoid being burnt in the fire. I no longer believe this. I am now a 'non-believer' in what religion taught me (although I still believe a lot of things that religion teaches), but I am also a 'believer' and am experiencing a relationship in/with my Father that I didn't have years ago. As to having to train others to believe the way I do, that is not nessessary for me. I share my thoughts, and if others are helped -That is Good-, and if they are not, then I hope they will throw it away and not be harmed by it. I also have had many helpful thoughts that come to me after or during my sleep that add another piece to the picture I am putting together as God attempts to communicate with me.
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