I like how Jimmy Munoz began with God's love as the basis for understanding the dynamics of redemption. The revelation of God is the proper basis for a revelation of ourselves.
I also think the reference to Psalm 145:15 of God giving meat in due season speaks of the conditionedness of life. How life has consequences, which might be a bitter winter. However, it shows that God is faithful in bringing spring to break of the fallow groudn of a winter past.
Some Problems with Legal Universal Justification. I did not completely understand the term Legal Universal Justification, but it seems to be saying that humans share the burden of sin along with Christ. That they are in Christ intrinsically and so they must have hung on the cross along with Christ, and therefore must have born part of their own sins along with Christ. This is contradictory to what the Bible teaches and the church believes. The Bible tells us in Acts that there is only one name under heaven by which we are saved. Isaiah tells us that we are healed by His stripes, that He bore the iniquity of us all. Those who take the legal universal justification approach have a problem with faith, because they see it as work that is earning salvation. This is however not the case. Faith is not a work but it is the way by which we receive the gift that is given by grace. Also, faith changes the believer’s life, whereas the legal universal justification approach does not initiate any difference in a person’s life. In fact, a person does not even have to be a believer but they are saved all the same because salvation to them is a blanket that covers all of humanity.
Romans 1 This chapter also addresses the problem of sin and wickedness. According to the legal universal justification approach no one would die because all are saved. It would not matter if people were good or bad, righteous or unrighteous. But Paul in Romans tells us that we are righteous through faith that comes from God through Jesus Christ by the grace of God. And because of this faith believers live a righteous life. Those who do not accept this faith and grace are left to their own sinful desires which leads to death. This chapter clearly indicates that faith changes a believer’s life and if one does not live by faith then there is death. This contradicts the legal universal justification approach in that according to Romans the human being has a part to place in salvation. The part he/she plays is accepting the gift and allowing that gift to transform their life. They do not work for salvation but one does have to accept the gift of salvation.
Steps to Christ ch 1 Here White describes the perfect world God created, the world that is now subject to sin, and Christ who came to restore the world and human beings to what God had originally created. White tells us that the world is separated from God and this results in death. This is why God, in His love for the human race, sent His only Son into the world to take the form of man so that man can be saved from the death (separation from God) that man was headed to. She quotes Isaiah 53; Christ bore our sins upon Himself. She describes Christ on the cross; He had to be on the cross to bear our sins, so that we don’t have to. This contradicts the legal universal justification approach that says not only did Jesus die for our sins, but we also shared in that death. Also, according to the previously mentioned approached, a persons life does not need to change because salvation is not something they even need to be aware of , they are saved just by being human being because they are in Christ intrinsically. Steps to Christ shows us that salvation is available to all men, but it is not received by all men. Those who do receive it see a marked change in their lives, but because now their lives are under the love of Christ.
I really like what Jimmy said about how Ellen White shows Gods redemption in the death of David’s son. It is still a hard scenario to swallow that an innocent baby had to die. But it does show how God uses the sin and death in this world to yet show us something of the heavenly realm.
response to pranitha pilli’s posting on Justification and Universal Salvation
I liked that you oppose a definition of justification as convoluted as you described it “humans share the burden of sin along with Christ. That they are in Christ intrinsically and so they must have hung on the cross along with Christ, and therefore must have born part of their own sins along with Christ.” This would not only be confusing, it will turn off any postmodern person.
You also contradicted a theory that does appeal to our generation. That “a person does not even have to be a believer but they are saved all the same because salvation to them is a blanket that covers all of humanity.” While the universal salvation of all people sounds like a good thing, it posses many problems, the least of which is that God would have to save some people against their wills. I don’t think post-moderns will feel comfortable with this thought…
Responding to Jimmy A. Munoz - Steps to Christ, chapters entitled “Consecration” and “Faith and acceptance.” I think you make a very good point here. Salvation is not merely keeping the law; it is not works … alone. From the reading I did this week I would definitely agree with the spirit of what you are saying. The bible and Ellen White seem to teach that just keeping a check list will not get you to heaven. As quoted in my post, Ellen White says, “Education, culture, the exercise of the will, human effort, all have their proper sphere, but here they are powerless. They may produce an outward correctness of behavior, but they cannot change the heart; they cannot purify the springs of life.” It is a change of heart and attitude that is needed. God alone can provide this heart transplant. I also agree that sometimes we as Adventist get so caught up in right living, that we miss out on the message of Christ and the good news of salvation. Jesus told his hearers, John 5:39 “Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.” We search the scriptures, yet we do not come to Christ for the life.
A Response to the post by Jimmy A. Munoz - (Previous Week, seems it never posted correctly)
I appreciate the idea of the three themes, which are very appropriate to the discussion on salvation. In order for us to have salvation we must recognize that there is a God. This evidence, as you pointed out can even be seen in creation. It also helps to have a knowledge of God’s character, which is love, as you pointed out. This is one of the factors which draw us to him. In addition we must see a need to have Him not only as God but Savior, as stated. One thing that I noticed is that you gave three themes however, it seems as though you only elaborated on two of them. I may be mistaken but it seems that way. I would have like to see more said on the last point.
In response to Prenitha Pilli..... While there are problems with universal justification, we can't deny the theologians that misinterpret universal justification with previent grace(that Dwight Nelson) teaches by the way. According to some theologians,it is a universal positional justication, that is, that Christ reconciled the world unto Himself. You may call it passive justification, but becomes active justification when ones receives knowledge of it and responds to it.
Commenting on Jo. When a person repents it seemed like you were saying that it is only the tip of the "iceberg". This implies that repentance isn't complete or forgiveness complete when we come to Christ. I do agree that we should have repent attitudes, but should we continue to see ourselves and call ourselves sinners if we are in Christ. Of course we still struggle and fall but do we fall as sinners or do we fall as a people continuing in the process of knowing God but no longer sinner
Response to what Vincent Duncombe said on 9/13/2007 9:10 AM You highlighted the BRI article that was bashing universal salvation. Apparently this theory is something Adventists feel needs to be fought a lot these days. Do you know what Christian groups are promoting this idea of salvation for all on the basis of being a human being?
While Rodriguez’s illustration of Satan being the jailor can be useful, it also creates problems as it could be interpreted to imply that the ransom price that Christ paid was paid to the devil. What do you think about this?
Walter, There is a poster of a cat with paws outstretched on a surface that looks like a wall with the slogan "Hang In There." I beleive many have experienced disappointments that would equate with the message of that picture; right in the church. I would not want to focus on the "types" of experiences that God has blessed me to endure since He led me into this Bible Teaching Church. I was searching for Truth and in a very miraculous way He helped me to find it...and I'm still finding more and more and look forward to Heaven and the learning experiences at the feet of Jesus. I feel just like Peter, Lord to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. The unfortunate thing is that many become so disheartened and turn away...some never to return. I meet many while canvassing and usually after listening to them,my response is "It's time to come back home...but what I'm really saying is "It's time to come back to Jesus, not the Church. I've actually been blessed to see or been told of some who the Lord brought back. Despite all of the masquerade, His presence is there. I have had some experiences in Church (awesome) with the Lord. But with the enemy of souls increasing his attack knowing that he has but a short time; at a time when the Lord desires to manifest his presence in abundance, whatever happens, this ship "the church" is going to weather the storm...because it's God's church and it will go through. But if the doors of the Church are closed, we can "have church" in presence of the angels. I've had loved ones to decease who were not Adventist, but did not go to Christless graves. I'm confident of this; If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.1Jn.1:9 On the other hand, I do not know how it is possible to be saved while rejecting the light unless that too is confessed...but I am not the righteous judge. Reflect on this excerpt from Reaction to Hurt
If words are inadequate to find, To describe the hurt from words spoken or deeds that are unkind; you have a choice of things that you can do, Either negative or positive---it's all left up to you. ............... ............... On the other hand, you can tell Jesus just how bad you feel Don't try to hide it or be embarrassed, He knows the fake from the real; Because God loves you he'll concentrate on lifting you up in Him, He'll heal the hurt and you'll grow stronger as you learn to trust a trustworthy friend. Remember some may not have experienced the Father's love and don't know how to show love. He might just need to warm some hearts through you.
The Comic Christ of Scripture Comments on Chapter 2 The Scripture has been viewed even before the time of the Reformation as the final authority. In discussing this principle I believe that Dr. Hanna did a good job in emphasizing the proper attitude that seekers should approach the Bible with. This principle is highlighted by the “Gospel Prophet” when he exclaims, “For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little” (Isa. 28: 10). Therefore, Scripture is the guide in matters of knowledge concerning Christ and the Cosmos. I am of the conviction that this chapter could have delve much deeper into this concept. Furthermore, it is obvious in the chapter that proper methods for reading God’s word must be employed to get a correct understanding of the gems that are found there in. The point cannot be overly emphasized that the Bible is not a story book; therefore, the message of passage should be understood in the total picture of the Scripture because “no Scripture is of any private interpretation” or the prophet’s own exposition (1Peter 1: 20). Thereby, a text should be studied in the totally of Scripture. The chapter underscores the importance of giving the Bible its rightful place in terms of authoritative Word of God. Clearly, the information covered was very relevant to a correct understanding of Revelation, Inspiration, and Hermeneutics.
Chapter Comments The chapter “How to Read God’s Three books” in The Cosmic Christ of Scripture is a biblical concept that was dealt with by many of the Bible writers and even Jesus Himself. Therefore, the purpose of the incarnation, inspiration and creation is to reveal the Love of God. I believe this was dealt with fairly well by the author. On the other hand, I would have liked the author to focus on how Christ applied the Tota, Sola, and Prima Scriptura principles. Evidence of this can be found in Luke. 24: 27. This conversation held by Jesus on the way to Emmaus brought out these three scriptural principles in understanding God’s revelation in Jesus, Scripture and Nature (cosmos). Consequently, Jesus establishes the Tota Scriptura principle (“and beginning at Moses and all the prophets”) to correct the disciples miss understanding concerning His ministry. In addition, Jesus did not search the Talmud or the rabbinic tradition first; rather He consults Scripture first (“Beginning at Moses”), which is the Prima Scriptura principle. Furthermore, Jesus legitimizes the Sola Scriptura (Scripture Alone) principle in the above text, when “He expounded unto them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself”. It is worthy to note that Jesus used only the Scripture to establish His claims. I believe that this addition to chapter one would help to make the point clearer, seeing that the focus is on the Cosmic Christ of Scripture. Conversely, the information covered in this chapter is very informative.
Ragnheidur Olafsdottir Comment 1 I chose to comment on Vincent´s Duncombe reading report. I do agree with Vincent on the importance of Holistic thinking. The matter of Sin and Salvation is such a broad and deep matter (something that the angels even desire to look into 1.peter 1:12). How humans inherited sinful nature should also be a part of our Holistic Thinking and the origin of the Sin of Adam and Eve has been a debate for a long time. Who is to blame, is it Adam or is it Eve, or could a part of it be just us, the choices we have made in our own life. After all we will all be held accountable for our actions and thoughts. However isn´t that kind of odd that we are debating about which is the best and most correct answer?. Humans really want to be right(the sinful nature in us) but I think that as time draws nearer to the end, true disciples of Christ will embrace and adopt a humble kind of Spirit in the sense that they will be Spirit led and will not trust on their own wisdom. We constantly have to research the Word of God and give our everyday to God.
Many people think that coming to Jesus is some how after repenting. It sounds too simple, too childish, too easy. It makes salvation out to be merciful. While coming to Jesus is the first step in salvation, it often is the hardest. Feeling bad makes more sense because it is easier. Coming to a person means making a personal sacrifice.
Response to comments made by Pranitha Pilli from Tamara Strickland-Bennett. I really appreciated the comments and clarification made on Romans 3:21-24.It is clear that universal justification is available to those who "BELIEVE". Pranitha presented a "holistic" biblical perspective,while including the writings of E.G.White. It is clear to see salvation while free, does require a demonstration of faith to be expressed on the part of the recipent.God will not force His love upon anyone,it must be experienced by choice!I was encouraged to press on to the high calling which is in Christ Jesus! I thank God fellow believers!!
I agree with Pranitha on the issue of legal universal justification. The Bible doesn't support the ideology that every member of the human family have carried the weight of their sin along with Christ on the cross. Christ is the One and Only eternal sacrificial Lamb Who has taken away the sins of the world. There's is nothing that man can do to atone for his own sin.
Joseph, I have struggled in the past with whether or not those throughout history who have never been exposed to the Gospel--will they be saved. I do agree with you wholeheartedly. Even in Romans chapter 2:14-16 it talks about "Gentiles who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these,although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them...in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ..." Now some may say this is talking about Gentiles who have been introduced to the Gospel, but when the text says "...by nature do the things in the law"--one could say this means the cosmos around them or the measure of faith that has been given to all humankind. I don't know, I haven't done extensive exegesis of this passage, but I do believe it supports the message in Romans 1.
Response to what Sherri Headen said on 9/27/2007 12:30 PM Hey Sherri, Catholics believe that we are guilty for Adam and Eve’s sin. I understand that while they wouldn’t say like this, this is at least part of what they mean by their doctrine of “original sin.” Adventists emphasize more that Adam and Eve’s “original sin” affects us in that our nature is more likely to sin now than when the first couple was first created. But we are not guilty for their sin of rejecting God’s love in disobeying his will. Our culpability lies in that we ourselves have rebelled out of our own, and to a great degree free, power of choice. Is what I am saying in agreement with what you learned in your reading?
Regarding the salvation of people who never knew that our Messiah Jesus ever lived; I am totally with you that many will be saved without claiming His merits. I think we’ll be busy in heaven sharing with them how we came to love Jesus and they too will teach much about they got to love Him through nature and other revelations from God.
Response (Question) for ELEMS, Ugochukwu regarding what he said on 10/02/2007 5:09 PM Your affirmed the article by Rodriguez entitled “Christ Saved the Human Race”. According to what you wrote, Rodriguez argues against universal salvation. Is this a concern among Adventists? I have never heard an Adventists promote this idea, have you?
Comment of Joseph Willaiams' reflection on Romans 1 I do not see any over stretch on the ontological or epistemologically claims as it relates to salvation, nor does ontology or epistemology downplay on nature. These three (ontology, epistemology and nature) point us to God – Christ points us to God, the Scriptures points us to God and nature points us God. They all have their primacies and do not conflict. Perhaps it'll better to propose a holistic view that will embrace all three
Comment on Vincent Duncombe’s Reflection on “Adam and the Human Race” by Angel Rodriguez
Obviously, if say that Adam could not pass on righteousness to subsequent generations of the human race because his own character and nature had been marred by sin, then it logically follows that he passed on what he had – the sinful nature. To say that Adam’s sin was his own and yet having a universal impact upon the human race even without a conscious choice as in Romans 3:10,23 is contradictory. I think we must adopt a holistic view to the problem of sin – we are both sinful by nature and choice.
I appreciate Sherri Headen's comments on how sin was passed on to the human race through Adam. This is not a very easy subject to understand, and it takes courage to try to help others comprehend In her closing remarks,Sherri used a good example to emphasize the point,as she explained her adoption,and the fact that she has traits of those who raised her. I beleive the best way for us to be like Jesus is to look full in Hs wonderful Face.As the word says "by beholding we become changed". Adam got us into this mess of sin,BUT Jesus has provided a way of escape.No matter how it all got started, Jesus said "It is finished"!!!
I must agree with Tamara concerning the comments made from EGW "Christ Our Righteousness". When I think back to the amount of faith the martyrs had during the Dark Ages, I'm completely astounded. One must have such a measure of faith to lay down your life--knowing it may be taken in a gruesome manner. Faith must become who we are. It's not just a matter of having faith, but becoming faith. Everything, we say, do, think, or feel must become a product of faith in Christ Jesus.
Response to :ELEMS, Ugochukwu - Steps to Christ, Chaps1-3
You used an interesting quotation from Ellen White in your reflection. "Nothing less than infinite sacrifice made by Christ in behalf of fallen man could express the Father's love to humanity." If you think about the models that we mentioned in class, like the substitution model, or satisfaction model for explaining Christ’s death, White here introduces another model, it was necessary to express the Father’s love for us fallen beings. This is wonderful. I also liked the fact that you picked up on something I found when going through Steps to Christ and it is that you can come to Jesus before repenting! This is awesome. With this understanding we first respond to Jesus call, and then He gives us the power to truly repent.
In response to Vincent Duncombe and Ragnheidur Olafsdottir, I agree that the debate over the origin of sin is one that has been going on for centuries, and will continue to be studied throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity. I don't believe we can come to a conclusive answer on this debate on this side of eternity. Now, I do believe the Holy Spirit gives us enough insight to walk in faith. I don't know whether sin has replicated through earth's generations thru just Adam, a combination of Adam and Eve, just Eve, solely from our own sins, or a combination of the aforementioned. What's important-a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, allowing His righteousness to cover our innate unrighteousness.
I agree with your example of Justification being a gift that we have to take, and in addition it is something that we must experience presently. This goes back to our model in class of justification being past, present and future. It is all of these. In Romans Ch 3, you made note that Paul is leveling the playing field. This tells us today of God’s justice in judging us. No one has an unfair advantage where salvation is concerned, even someone born into the worst family in the worst area of the world still is level with someone who was born into a Christian family. This is an amazing work of God that gives everyone equal opportunity.
A reflection on Jimmy A. Munoz’s “heretical parable” 9/26/2007
You ask the question whether this parable in any way resemble how Christ’s salvation works. Well first of all I would have to put up a disclaimer and mention that first of all that we must recognize that this is just a ‘parable’ or model, as stated in class. Already, by stating this we have discovered that it will not accurately describe everything about Christ’s salvation. However, in some ways it may resemble some aspects of Christ’s substitution. The part where it talks about the Dean being ashamed of his sons bad grades and turning away from him, and then giving him a second chance just because he was the Dean does not really fit our theology. However, the parable if taken just as a model could be helpful to someone. But it can only go so far.
Reflection to Tamara Strickland-Bennett... "In the world we live today, many people believe that man has a good nature.Many believe if man exercises enough will power and self discipline,man can do good without any outside intervention." It seems like it is the implicit culture of our church. When I came back to the church six years ago, I told someone that I could never see myself blacksliding or going one day without Jesus. Oh how I was wrong
Response to Jimmy A. Munoz said... Reading Some Theological Considerations of Perfection by Edward Heppenstall. Last year, Dr Hanna had us read a book on salvation. They made us study the difference between character perfection and nature perfection. It was eye opening.
I was reading a few posts back. I really liked what Tamara said about Abraham respecting the integrity of God. I never thought of that. Its like saying we offend God when we do not trust Him.
In response to Jimmy. When I first read "grace is only for sinners" I felt like you did. I think because it seems to be an exclusive statment. But then we are all sinners, every one, so then "Grace is for everyone".
In response to Sherri. When you were talking about God caring for the inward man in regards to the Jews. I thought of Is 58 where God says I don't care for your Sabbaths or your feast. This concept goes back into the Old Testament. Although God outlined a lot of external things for the Jews to do, He seems to always have been about the inward parts. As He said of David, a man after My own heart.
Commenting on ELEMS, Ugochukwu Reflection on “Salvation by Faith” Blog
That is a excellent analysis of what it means to live the Christian life. Justification frees the believer to follow God and sanctification is the following of God, cling to him, giving oneself completely to him. The tension is when we have to settle it in our minds that they both gifts of God
Response to ELEMS, Ugochukwu said... Comment of Joseph Williams' reflection on Romans 1.
I don't believe in knowing the Gospel and responding to the Gospel. I am arguing for a more holistic model in the evangelical word that says one can't be saved unless they have knowledge of the gospel and God's Son. I am actually proposing a more open view to the reach of God's love and grace.
Response to what Joseph Williams said on 10/10/2007 8:24 PM
Hi there fellow former Pharisee. I appreciate your honesty. Sometimes I am grateful that I was not born during the time of Christ. His ways are so different than the way things “should” be than I am afraid I would have rejected Him like most did. That I still following Him now is also a work of His grace. If it is not by his compassion and acceptance, I could never get it. I mean accept it.
While being an imperfect perfect or having a victorious limp sounds too good to be true, I with you will move forward to gain the victory as we admit shortcomings.
Comment on Jimmy A. Munoz said... The article “Justification by Faith and Judgment According to Works” by Ivan T
I also concur, after all, who is really righteous but One (the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth). He is our righteousness - whether we speak in terms of justification, sanctification or glorification. Let's give praises.
Comment on Joseph Williams said... In “Justification in Romans 3:21-24”, by Dr. Rodriguez
It is perhaps the highest representation of self-deceit when we deliberately fail to acknowledge our sin and our helplessness. Indeed, as Paul declared in Romans 1, it is premeditated and deliberate when humans deny God or act as if there were no God and that we could fix up our lives by our own effort. If only we let go pride, we shall see our dire need for loving Savior who has given up His ALL to redeem us. Such a salvation CANNOT be said of works on our part.
Response to Tamara´s blog on Romans 2 and 3. I do agree that God tells us to not judge, but nevertheless it is also true that all around us we see this wicked world and we can´t but be horrified by it. However what I think has been the major confusion in the religious world today is the very fact that we cannot distinguish between the works and the sinner. This is something God always does, otherwise He wouldn´t be able to love us. God can look at us and love the person but hate the Sin in our lives. When we don´t keep this in mind at all times, we begin to focus on our works and the works of other people. But all along God has asked us to love others the way HE loves them--to love people apart from their works. THis is of course almost impossible for us since we cannot see the sinner apart from His works. However it doesn´t excuse us, we should still try to look at humanity with the very eyes of God, with the same heart as God. Only then can we at least start to care for others and really love them, sympathise with them knowing that we yearn for the same view of forgiveness in our own lives. The strange part is that God also takes into consideration our works, but in another way that we humans do, He focuses on our faith in the works and ultimately God´s ways are so much above our own thinking. We must at all times be reminded that God is the only one who can handle looking at humanity and at the very same time judge humanity through His everlasting love.
I agree with Jimmy Munoz on not being convinced that grace is only for sinners. I don't know, maybe my definition of grace is offset. I recently did a small study on the meaning of grace (not exhaustive in the least)and the definition I found is "unmerited divine assistance". Now it seems to me, that even those of us who are in relationship with Christ--are traveling a road called sanctification, which is a process (in one respect). Until we reach the glorification attained at Christ return, we are not perfect, (meaning no higher level of attainment is possible) and I believe that even when we are living in the direct presence of Christ in Heaven and the earth made new--we will still continue to grow, mature, and attain higher levels of perfection. Understanding this--how is it possible that we do not need divine assistance even now? And, the last time I checked--I did not and I do not deserve God's assistance (even though I am a Christian).
LaLa, I appreciate a couple of commments you made concerning the faith/works debate, one in particular--"...faith will work in us". I couldn't have said it better myself. For centuries, the debate over whether faith or works takes home the trophy has begun to get on my nerves. I believe we all need to seriously seek the Holy Spirit's direction when studying scripture, and study the scriptures wholistically. Then we will learn that faith will indeed "work" in us. Because of our faith in Christ, we will work/SERVE (maybe it's the semantics game again) Him.
Jimmy Munoz, posed a serious hypothetical question. Paraphrasing--would Elijah and Enoch be understanding of our waiting for higher transformation at translation or might they suggest that this is a dangerous idea that might be keeping us from letting God take us to the heights he has for us? I will admit, I'm perplexed. I realize that full surrender to Christ/the work of the Holy Spirit is what we should strive for in "Christian perfection", but I wonder whether Elijah and Enoch were at this point when they were taken. Was every single area of their lives totally relinquished to God, or were there still glimpses of self. I don't know, there's not a lot written about Enoch's day to day life, but we know Elijah had some serious days of doubt within his ministry. In summary, what does it look like/feel like to be TOTALLY (no self whatsoever) surrendered to Christ? Can this be attained while on this earth?
My comment on Sherry Headen´s blog on Reflection on “Christ Saved the Human Race” by Angel Manuel Rodriguez.
I read the same article as Sherry did and I felt enlightened. It seems that Ellen White can always enlighten us even though we face the most complicated issues/topics. What I felt Sherry was saying, was that Adam and Eve(after the fall) didn´t have what it took to resist Sin and therefore they couldn´t pass something on to future descendants that wasn´t within them. And for me this is a new understanding of how Sin works in us and I did sense that Sherry was experiencing the same understanding as I did.(Nice to know that we are all progressing and coming to a new understanding!!) However because Adam and Eve could do nothing of themselves to save themselves from this pit of Sin, God provided them with hope of Salvation. What I found fascinating was realizing that even though we can do nothing of ourselves, God still is faithful to us and gives us the hope of Salvation, but it has to be through Jesus Christ. Hope becomes our ANCHOR in this life and if we have hope we most certainly must have FAITH. And ultimately God is the only one knowing what kind of faith and hope dwells within us, is it a hope of everlasting life just because we don´t want to die eternally, or is it the hope of a life lived in the beauty and purity of God. I guess we all have to examine ourselves there, is our "blessed hope" a genuine one or a selfish one. Anyway I am enjoying this class very much and all my fellow classmates comments. Blessings to all of you, Lala
Response to what Pranitha Pilli posted on 10/05/2007 9:23 PM Kitty, it has been a while since you posted these questions, but because they resonate with mine, I decided to bring them up again in hope that Dr. Hanna will take the time to discuss these with us in class. Here is how you asked the questions: “Why it is that it was Jesus who had to die? Who determined the wages of sin, that the second death was its penalty?”
Why couldn’t God save Adam without having Jesus die? Ellen White in commenting on Genesis 3 wrote: “(Adam) trembled at the thought that his sin must shed the blood of the spotless Lamb of God… his transgression, nothing but the death of God's dear Son could expiate.” {PP 68.1} To this thought my immediate question is: Why is this so? Why couldn’t God save Adam without having Jesus die?
Lala´s comment on Kitty´s blog and also on Jimmy´s response to that blog(Why did Jesus have to die?).
Well I can say that I have shared the same thoughts as both of you are going through and in my case I feel that it suddenly opened up for me not so long ago. Of course my understanding is just mine but I felt like sharing it with you.
As I understand it, Jesus isn´t just Jesus, He is God. And since God allowed all created beings to have a Free will, God would also have to deal with the consequenses of allowing this Free Will. But God didn´t just decide He would give Men/Women and all created beings(angels etc) Free Will... NO! He could not have done it differently, because God is Love, and TRUE LOVE will never use force. SO God could not force us to love Him. And how could a person or a created being ever love God truly, without having Free will to do so? Well this goes on...God being the one who "has" to give us Free Will because that is HE WHO HE IS, also loves us so much that He says.."I will take the blame for my own Character/attributes, I will take the blame for having given you Free Will"(GOD is accused of giving Free will to created beings..because if Free Will had not been given, then there would have been NO SIN IN THE UNIVERSE). So God decided from the foundations of the world/universe that He would always take the blame for His own attributes...and that is why Jesus came to earth...because Jesus IS THIS GOD WHO TOOK/TAKES THE BLAME. Had Jesus himself not been worthy of the task (to not Sin)then God himself wouldn´t be God anymore.(because Jesus is God)..And because God/Jesus is Love(I AM)there is no Sin in GOD to be found. In fact, God would have to cease being God if Jesus/God had failed...So THIS IS WHAT JESUS DID FOR US, not only did He give us ALL with Him(eternal life etc,Free Will), but He proved that God will take the blame even for being the "good one"(because wasn´t God being wonderful when He gave us Free Will?.. but Satan´s accuse is that God led created beings into a trap and that there is no Free Will after all because God will destroy those who won´t follow Him). In one of my classes this summer I heard Dr.Jo Ann saying something so BEAUTIFUL...she said that the Rainbow...is a bow...that is turned towards God and not towards men(those who know how to shoot from a bow understand this analogy, think of the shape of the Rainbow..to whom is it turned to?). Just imagen...He/GOD even did put in the sky the sign of His everlasting love for us(His Covenant that He would take the blame), God surely is righteous...HOLY HOLY HOLY is His name(the Trinity), WORTHY IS THE LAMB(Rev 5:9). I pray that God will fill us all with His Wonderful Holy Spirit so that we might grasp better and better the wonderful things He has done for us...
Lord, thank you for FREE WILL in my life..it makes be able to love you, not like a robot but with all my heart,with all my soul, with all my mind and with all my strength(Jesus´Words - Mark 12:30) Blessings to all of you, Lala
Comment on Jimmy A. Munoz said... “His law Is faulty” said the devil?
I think the Scripture supports Ellen White's presupposition about the point that the great controversy is over the character of God (which is revealed in the Law) and that the devil claimed that the law of God is faulty.
In the first place, “sin is the transgression of the law” I John 3:4 and if Satan sinned (which he really did), then he transgressed the law of God. And if he transgressed the law of God, then He has also denied and faulted the character of God which is expressed in the Law (Psalm 119:142; Romans 7:12).
Comment on Vincent Duncombe posting on Angel Rodriguez in his document concerning Adam and the Human Race
Indeed, I agree that the issue of the nature and extent of the impact of Adam’s sin call for elaborate discussion than Rodriguez presented in his article, for I further think that there is sense in which Adam’s sin was passed on to all generations of humanity and there is still another sense in which EVERYONE is responsible for his/her sin.
Response to what Ugochukwu posted on 10/26/2007 2:41 PM Ugochukwu, I like the question you are asking. Does Paul say “that Christ fulfilled all the requirement of the law for those who by faith believe in Him?” The part I would you like to talk to you about, maybe over break in class next week is, how did you get this idea from Romans 10:6 and 7 which reads: “But the way of getting right with God through faith says, “You don’t need to go to heaven” (to find Christ and bring him down to help you). And it says, “You don’t need to go to the place of the dead” (to bring Christ back to life again)?”
Responding to Geoffrey: I agree with you that a misunderstanding of Romans 8:28 has contributed to many warped theology that we see parading itself in our churches today. It is inconceivable to think that we are much more special than those who are daily affected by the ills of our day. Thank goodness that Paul is balanced in his understanding of the arguments he presents. This is much relief, for when we examine this statement in its broader context; we can fully appreciate what he is communicating. This, I believe is the perspective that our professor is communicating in his lectures-the need for a broader understanding of how we view salvation, and by extension the scriptures.
Response to what Sherri Headen posted on 10/18/2007 5:09 PM Eahooooo, sister Haden, I liked your conclusion “Christian perfection is total surrender to the will of God and the power of the Holy Spirit in your heart and mind.” I too have been around people who were befuddled about what perfection looks like. In many cases this confusion boils down to a masticating matter. I have seen people who thought that when you gave up cheese, then you were perfect. It is a sad thing, not to say ridiculous.
“How to Tell if God is Leading” PORTION OF MORNING TALK AT COPENHAGEN, DENMARK, JULY 21, 1886, TITLED "SEARCH THE SCRIPTURES." PUBLISHED IN THE REVIEW AND HERALD, APRIL 3, 1888.
And this is very true of our Christian journey (our salvific experience), we never get to point where we can claim to have arrived. Rather like Paul, we keep pressing upward and onward to mark of the price of the high calling in Jesus Christ. We shall not only continue to study but also to daily experience the joy and power of His presence.
And come to think of it, can anything good proceed from corruption? "A good man out of his good treasures brings forth good gifts" and "every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit." Matthew 7:17. The point is that we can never, never please God by trying hard at keeping the law, for we are sinners and the best of our efforts as filthy rags (Isa. 64:6.
We desperately, direly and unavoidably need the grace God through the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit to do the will of God (keep the law).
Ok. I have a stand on Universal Legal Justification.
I think it'll work perhaps for a congregation that is not given to in dept study of the Bible, but once there is a strong desire to study in order to better understand God's plan and operation in the salvific history, these concerns are inevitables that must be confronted.
You made reference to Romans 5:8-10 in attempt to buttress your position, but the same text insinuates both the objective and subjective views. Paul in verse 8 speaks of God's love for rebels (objective), but in verses 9-10, he also speaks of the ones who have reconciled to God(subjective). Or shall we expunge other Scriptural texts like Romans 8:1; John 3:6; that speak of subjective love or shall we delete such passages that speak of objective love Romans 5:8; John 3:16? I think what what we need is a holistic model as Dr. Hanna proposes, that will accommodate both views, for both are biblical.
Ugochukwu: Thank you for your response to my posting in which I suggested a “ducking approach” to this ongoing battle about Objective and Subjective Justification. You suggested that what “we need is a holistic model as Dr. Hanna proposes, that will accommodate both views, for both are biblical.” This approach seems to work fairly well in a scenario such as we have here at the seminary. But as Dr. Hanna, you, and I know, many deep students of the Bible indeed scholars out there in our churches do no think so. I don’t know if claiming holism you wouldn’t end up being called a “Hegelian Dualist.”
Vincent I appreciate your wrestling with the difficult subject of predestination in Romans 11. You commented: “In verse 7 onward, there again appears in Paul this predestination language. Here he states that the election had attained, but the rest were blinded. Reading these passages it seems that God is actually placing road blocks in the way of some individuals which are allowing them not to be saved. However, this is not the case. It is because of their disobedience that they have blinded themselves…”
However, predestination as proposed by Calvinists could hardly be reputed with the argument of Pharaoh's hardened heart. The same sun that melts the wax hardens the clay. Calvinists believe that God is the One who decides whether you are wax or clay.
I hope Dr. Hanna shares his wisdom with us on this subject before the semester is over.
In Response to ELEMS post, on “Salvation by Faith” By Jan Paulsen. I see that you also noticed that Paulsen pointed out that we should not separate what God does and what we do. However, I think that this is only a problem because some people misinterpret what is being said by this distinction. For example in your class we recognize the 4 works of the Holy Spirit and our responses to those works (our surrender). While we do not get any merit because we have surrendered it is necessary that we do because we must co-operate with God’s working. What I do like about his presentation, which you pointed out as well, is that the objective and subjective parts must go together. God justifies us however; this justification leads to a life experience with Him; one that changes us into His image.
A Response to Joseph Williams 10/10/2007 7:28 PM I saw an interesting phrase that you used when reflecting on Romans 5. You mentioned that, “salvation has many more benefits to the recipient than sin does.” This is interesting and correct, however, it seems that many times we are blinded to this fact and still choose the sin over righteousness. Ellen White backs this statement up by stating that everything that God asks us to do is always for our best interest. So then the question is why do we keep on choosing what is not good for us? Also I found interesting the mention that salvation is free and the other option you have to work for. This is actually biblical. “The wages of sin is death,” you get wages or paid when you have worked for something. So you work and your pay is death … or you can take the eternal life … a free gift. Of course this can be taken to the extreme but it is a good analogy.
This is a response to the posting by Jimmy Munoz 10/12/2007, on Justification by Faith and Judgement according to Works. I apprieciate this posting because first of all I have not gone through this article and it presents a very interesting idea, that Justification and Judgement is based on two different things. I have never thought about these two being separated in this manner. So because of that I am glad that you sparked my interest in this article. That being said I am not 100% certian that I am in agreement with what is being said, this maybe due to the fact that I have not yet seen the article. My disagreement comes because it seems by the phrase 'judgement by works', that somehow in the judgement our works allow us to be cleared. You still do not receive any credit. It is by faith that you were justified and that faith worked, Christ worked in you. And no amount of human work could justify you enough to pass the Judgement. I think that because you were Justified you can stand in the Judgement. Judgement by works ... but by Christ's works.
This is a response to the posting by Jimmy Munoz 10/31/2007, on Legal Justification. I must say first off, I hear your frustration. I have also read many of the articles that are basically responses to univseral legal justifcation. I understand your frustration, because I have found myself saying, "again?" when I started reading another article on this same issue. However, I am not necessarily inclined to be more sympathetic with universal legal justification as presented by Rodriguez. What maybe throwing you is the way in which he presents this type or model for justification. While I am clearly not siding with the 1888 study committee there are somethings to consider, for instance what about primative people who have never heard the gospel? Will "universal legal justification" apply to them so that they can be saved? Just reflecting on the question just now I don't think this is the case. For it seems that people will be judged based on the light they received. There light may have only been what was revealed in nature. After all the things of God are clearly revealed in nature so that they are without excuse. Something to think about.
This is a response to the post by Elems, Ugochukwu 11/07/2007, on "Justification and the Cross." I am in agreement with Rodriguez in this article in spirit. By this I mean that it is obvious that from Rodriguez's articles, he is defending two theological issues, one being the fact that 'universal legal justification' is incorrect and two, that everyone was somehow present in Adam at the time of his sin. And I do not believe that the entire human race was in Adam. So I agree. As he points out the entire human race feels the effects and are affected by Adams sin. I think that for some persons it maybe helpful to describe it as you have objective and subjective/experiential sin. In your post you did meniton that your view slightly varied from Rodriguez's conception because death reigned from Adam to Moses etc. However, I don't see how this differs from Rodriguez's point of view and I don't think that he would have a problem accepting the fact that death's reign is one of the universal impacts of Adam's sin.
This is a response to the post by Sherri Headen 11/07/2007, on Romans 4. I think that you did a good job of highlighting some of the important points in this chapter. I agree that there must have been some law in existence from the beginning of time. I thought that Dr. Hanna's explaination of that law being self-control also was a very interesting presentation and controversal. However, I think you are right their must have been some law in exsistence. I noticed that you used some of our traditional adventist explanation of the "law" in Romans by dividing it between moral and ceremonial law. I have a slightly different take to this after hearing a presentation done by Dr. Hanna on this division of the law into moral and ceremonial. While I will not get into this discussion here I do agree on the context of Romans as you have described here. The Jews were stressing that keeping the law had a direct relation to salvation. I would however, rephrase the last portion of your post to say that they should have stressed true faith in and love of God/Christ and this will bring about a transformation into "His Character", which is really adherence to The Law (inclusive) because The Law is just a transcript of His Character.
This is a response to the post by Sherri Headen 11/07/2007, on 'page 19 Steps to Christ. I like the fact that you again bring up a tension between law bringing wrath and also being holy. And I guess as Dr. Hanna has said maybe it is both. How is this possible? Well the law shows us that we are unjust and sinners worthy of the Wrath of God, yet the Law is not the problem it is us sinners that is the problem. The Law remains holy and perfect. I think Paul also says this. I like the fact that you point out that the law is just a mirror pointing out our mistakes/sins. If you think of it this could also solve the problem of the law bringing wrath and still remaining holy. However, thanks for pointing out that despite the fact that we cannot keep the law perfectly, we still have a savior who can cover us with his righteousness. Amen.
This is a response to the posting by Jimmy Munoz 11/14/2007, on predestination in Romans 11. First of all I appreciate the fact that you went back to this. We touched on this subject very lightly when we went over Romans 8 in class. However, I like you think that we should probably spend more time on this since it think it is an important subject related to salvation. Having said that I have heard of an explanation for these texts in relation to the text during the exodus, where it says that God hardened Pharaoh’s heart. It is shown that it was really Pharaoh’s constant turning back on his word that hardened his heart over time. However, it is expressed as God hardening his heart. This can probably be applied to these texts in Romans 11. I however, still have some reluctance about this explanation, I am not sure if it is complete enough, because the language used in these passages are so strong.
Response to Vincent I like your assessment of the relationship between trusting God, having faith, and obedience. You wrote among other things that “if you are saved you will produce fruit.” However I was not clear what you understand by the phrase “justification is the source of sanctified fruit.” Could you unpack this?
Sherri, Congratulations on finishing this course strong. I liked your discussion of Ellen White’s counsel to A. T. Jones to make sure his audience didn’t think he was saying that God did not plan for them to live holy lives. I also appreciated your paraphrase of Jesus’ summary of his Message to love God supremely and humans as much as we love ourselves.
I have enjoyed this class. I liked how our teacher was willing to discuss difficult subjects on the spot. I appreciate this because this is what real-life in ministry is like. I have enjoyed reading people’s postings and writing my own. May His grace and power fill out hearts and minds as we deal with the stress of finals. I have been taking 8 classes this semester :( But I am also all done and going back home soon :)
This is a response made to the post by Joseph 12/05, on the article, “Some thoughts on original sin.” I liked the point you made as you were ending that every good work manifested on the earth is of God and as sin pervades this world likewise, Christ pervades this world. I believe that this is true. Yet it is interesting that maybe some acts which are committed in the world that may appear to be ‘good’ may yet not be of God because they are done with the wrong motives. We cannot fully tell. I think that this was a good response however I would have like to hear your thoughts on some of the issues dealt with in the article or what you thought about the article on a whole. Was it good? Did you disagree with anything? Etc.
This a response to the posting by ELEMS Ugochukwu, 12/06/2007. First of all I must say that I am impressed by the way in which your post was presented. It was really clear and you systematically went through the reading from Steps to Christ, asked the questions and then provided the answer. You asked why do we not believe more. I think that you are correct when you say later on that we need to be “growing in grace.” In other words, the reason why so many of us still doubt is because we do not exercise our faith enough. The only way to build faith is to exercise it. Daily reliance upon God for sustenance will lead to greater faith in Him and less doubting.
Lala´s comment on Sherri´s thoughts on the article; How Perfect is “Perfect or is Christian Perfection Possible?
I especially liked your comment when you said that if we were sinless or if that was something we could work our way to..then Holy Spirit would one day be useless to us. However...my thoughts go into eternity...I quess at all times we will need the Holy Spirit even though we will be without sin. The mystery is that God will never take away our free will...we will only use it for good for all eternity with the help of THe Holy Spirit. But I liked the idea which I heard from another class..that we are perfect at every stage in our lives...at least God sees it that way...like little babies are perfect when they are born even though they are not able to feed themselves or walk or anything. We are perfect in this sense to God..He makes Him responsible for the growth inside of us. If we trust Him we have nothing to worry! Amen
when i read the assignment posted by David, i was eager to comment. On one side, i like the fact that he accepted the sin exist because of evil.Sin suppreses goodness and trueth that our God wants us to manifest.Sin prevents us from being one with God and doing His will and that is why we have to struggle with it each and everyday. On the hand, i dissagree on the fact that we should not read other documents like the ones presented by BRI. According to David, he just wants to read book only specific writters like Ellen white, but for me, reading beyond Ellen White opens our mind so that we can think wholistically.
70 comments:
I like how Jimmy Munoz began with God's love as the basis for understanding the dynamics of redemption. The revelation of God is the proper basis for a revelation of ourselves.
Response to Jimmy Munoz blog.
I also think the reference to Psalm 145:15 of God giving meat in due season speaks of the conditionedness of life. How life has consequences, which might be a bitter winter. However, it shows that God is faithful in bringing spring to break of the fallow groudn of a winter past.
Some Problems with Legal Universal Justification.
I did not completely understand the term Legal Universal Justification, but it seems to be saying that humans share the burden of sin along with Christ. That they are in Christ intrinsically and so they must have hung on the cross along with Christ, and therefore must have born part of their own sins along with Christ. This is contradictory to what the Bible teaches and the church believes. The Bible tells us in Acts that there is only one name under heaven by which we are saved. Isaiah tells us that we are healed by His stripes, that He bore the iniquity of us all. Those who take the legal universal justification approach have a problem with faith, because they see it as work that is earning salvation. This is however not the case. Faith is not a work but it is the way by which we receive the gift that is given by grace. Also, faith changes the believer’s life, whereas the legal universal justification approach does not initiate any difference in a person’s life. In fact, a person does not even have to be a believer but they are saved all the same because salvation to them is a blanket that covers all of humanity.
Romans 1
This chapter also addresses the problem of sin and wickedness. According to the legal universal justification approach no one would die because all are saved. It would not matter if people were good or bad, righteous or unrighteous. But Paul in Romans tells us that we are righteous through faith that comes from God through Jesus Christ by the grace of God. And because of this faith believers live a righteous life. Those who do not accept this faith and grace are left to their own sinful desires which leads to death. This chapter clearly indicates that faith changes a believer’s life and if one does not live by faith then there is death. This contradicts the legal universal justification approach in that according to Romans the human being has a part to place in salvation. The part he/she plays is accepting the gift and allowing that gift to transform their life. They do not work for salvation but one does have to accept the gift of salvation.
Steps to Christ ch 1
Here White describes the perfect world God created, the world that is now subject to sin, and Christ who came to restore the world and human beings to what God had originally created. White tells us that the world is separated from God and this results in death. This is why God, in His love for the human race, sent His only Son into the world to take the form of man so that man can be saved from the death (separation from God) that man was headed to. She quotes Isaiah 53; Christ bore our sins upon Himself. She describes Christ on the cross; He had to be on the cross to bear our sins, so that we don’t have to. This contradicts the legal universal justification approach that says not only did Jesus die for our sins, but we also shared in that death. Also, according to the previously mentioned approached, a persons life does not need to change because salvation is not something they even need to be aware of , they are saved just by being human being because they are in Christ intrinsically. Steps to Christ shows us that salvation is available to all men, but it is not received by all men. Those who do receive it see a marked change in their lives, but because now their lives are under the love of Christ.
I really like what Jimmy said about how Ellen White shows Gods redemption in the death of David’s son. It is still a hard scenario to swallow that an innocent baby had to die. But it does show how God uses the sin and death in this world to yet show us something of the heavenly realm.
response to pranitha pilli’s posting on Justification and Universal Salvation
I liked that you oppose a definition of justification as convoluted as you described it “humans share the burden of sin along with Christ. That they are in Christ intrinsically and so they must have hung on the cross along with Christ, and therefore must have born part of their own sins along with Christ.” This would not only be confusing, it will turn off any postmodern person.
You also contradicted a theory that does appeal to our generation. That “a person does not even have to be a believer but they are saved all the same because salvation to them is a blanket that covers all of humanity.” While the universal salvation of all people sounds like a good thing, it posses many problems, the least of which is that God would have to save some people against their wills. I don’t think post-moderns will feel comfortable with this thought…
Responding to Jimmy A. Munoz - Steps to Christ, chapters entitled “Consecration” and “Faith and acceptance.”
I think you make a very good point here. Salvation is not merely keeping the law; it is not works … alone. From the reading I did this week I would definitely agree with the spirit of what you are saying. The bible and Ellen White seem to teach that just keeping a check list will not get you to heaven. As quoted in my post, Ellen White says, “Education, culture, the exercise of the will, human effort, all have their proper sphere, but here they are powerless. They may produce an outward correctness of behavior, but they cannot change the heart; they cannot purify the springs of life.” It is a change of heart and attitude that is needed. God alone can provide this heart transplant.
I also agree that sometimes we as Adventist get so caught up in right living, that we miss out on the message of Christ and the good news of salvation. Jesus told his hearers, John 5:39 “Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.” We search the scriptures, yet we do not come to Christ for the life.
A Response to the post by Jimmy A. Munoz - (Previous Week, seems it never posted correctly)
I appreciate the idea of the three themes, which are very appropriate to the discussion on salvation. In order for us to have salvation we must recognize that there is a God. This evidence, as you pointed out can even be seen in creation. It also helps to have a knowledge of God’s character, which is love, as you pointed out. This is one of the factors which draw us to him. In addition we must see a need to have Him not only as God but Savior, as stated. One thing that I noticed is that you gave three themes however, it seems as though you only elaborated on two of them. I may be mistaken but it seems that way. I would have like to see more said on the last point.
In response to Prenitha Pilli.....
While there are problems with universal justification, we can't deny the theologians that misinterpret universal justification with previent grace(that Dwight Nelson) teaches by the way. According to some theologians,it is a universal positional justication, that is, that Christ reconciled the world unto Himself. You may call it passive justification, but becomes active justification when ones receives knowledge of it and responds to it.
In response to what Vincent Duncombe said...
Legal Universal Justification isn't justification for every person, but is the fact that Jesus made it available for everyone
Commenting on Jo. When a person repents it seemed like you were saying that it is only the tip of the "iceberg". This implies that repentance isn't complete or forgiveness complete when we come to Christ. I do agree that we should have repent attitudes, but should we continue to see ourselves and call ourselves sinners if we are in Christ. Of course we still struggle and fall but do we fall as sinners or do we fall as a people continuing in the process of knowing God but no longer sinner
Response to what Vincent Duncombe said on 9/13/2007 9:10 AM
You highlighted the BRI article that was bashing universal salvation. Apparently this theory is something Adventists feel needs to be fought a lot these days. Do you know what Christian groups are promoting this idea of salvation for all on the basis of being a human being?
While Rodriguez’s illustration of Satan being the jailor can be useful, it also creates problems as it could be interpreted to imply that the ransom price that Christ paid was paid to the devil. What do you think about this?
Cordially,
Jimmy A. Munoz
Walter,
There is a poster of a cat with paws outstretched on a surface that looks like a wall with the slogan "Hang In There." I beleive many have experienced disappointments that would equate with the message of that picture; right in the church. I would not want to focus on the "types" of experiences that God has blessed me to endure since He led me into this Bible Teaching Church. I was searching for Truth and in a very miraculous way He helped me to find it...and I'm still finding more and more and look forward to Heaven and the learning experiences at the feet of Jesus. I feel just like Peter, Lord to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
The unfortunate thing is that many
become so disheartened and turn away...some never to return. I meet many while canvassing and usually after listening to them,my response is "It's time to come back home...but what I'm really saying is "It's time to come back to Jesus, not the Church. I've actually been blessed to see or been told of some who the Lord brought back.
Despite all of the masquerade, His presence is there. I have had some experiences in Church (awesome) with the Lord.
But with the enemy of souls increasing his attack knowing that he has but a short time; at a time when the Lord desires to manifest his presence in abundance, whatever happens, this ship "the church" is going to weather the storm...because it's God's church and it will go through. But if the doors of the Church are closed, we can "have church" in presence of the angels.
I've had loved ones to decease who were not Adventist, but did not go to Christless graves. I'm confident of this; If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.1Jn.1:9 On the other hand, I do not know how it is possible to be saved while rejecting the light unless that too is confessed...but I am not the righteous judge.
Reflect on this excerpt from Reaction to Hurt
If words are inadequate to find,
To describe the hurt from words spoken or deeds that are unkind;
you have a choice of things that you can do,
Either negative or positive---it's all left up to you.
...............
...............
On the other hand, you can tell Jesus just how bad you feel
Don't try to hide it or be embarrassed, He knows the fake from the real;
Because God loves you he'll concentrate on lifting you up in Him,
He'll heal the hurt and you'll grow stronger as you
learn to trust a trustworthy friend.
Remember some may not have experienced the Father's love and don't know how to show love. He might just need to warm some hearts through you.
The Comic Christ of Scripture
Comments on Chapter 2
The Scripture has been viewed even before the time of the Reformation as the final authority. In discussing this principle I believe that Dr. Hanna did a good job in emphasizing the proper attitude that seekers should approach the Bible with. This principle is highlighted by the “Gospel Prophet” when he exclaims, “For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little” (Isa. 28: 10). Therefore, Scripture is the guide in matters of knowledge concerning Christ and the Cosmos. I am of the conviction that this chapter could have delve much deeper into this concept.
Furthermore, it is obvious in the chapter that proper methods for reading God’s word must be employed to get a correct understanding of the gems that are found there in. The point cannot be overly emphasized that the Bible is not a story book; therefore, the message of passage should be understood in the total picture of the Scripture because “no Scripture is of any private interpretation” or the prophet’s own exposition (1Peter 1: 20). Thereby, a text should be studied in the totally of Scripture. The chapter underscores the importance of giving the Bible its rightful place in terms of authoritative Word of God. Clearly, the information covered was very relevant to a correct understanding of Revelation, Inspiration, and Hermeneutics.
Chapter Comments
The chapter “How to Read God’s Three books” in The Cosmic Christ of Scripture is a biblical concept that was dealt with by many of the Bible writers and even Jesus Himself. Therefore, the purpose of the incarnation, inspiration and creation is to reveal the Love of God. I believe this was dealt with fairly well by the author. On the other hand, I would have liked the author to focus on how Christ applied the Tota, Sola, and Prima Scriptura principles. Evidence of this can be found in Luke. 24: 27. This conversation held by Jesus on the way to Emmaus brought out these three scriptural principles in understanding God’s revelation in Jesus, Scripture and Nature (cosmos).
Consequently, Jesus establishes the Tota Scriptura principle (“and beginning at Moses and all the prophets”) to correct the disciples miss understanding concerning His ministry. In addition, Jesus did not search the Talmud or the rabbinic tradition first; rather He consults Scripture first (“Beginning at Moses”), which is the Prima Scriptura principle. Furthermore, Jesus legitimizes the Sola Scriptura (Scripture Alone) principle in the above text, when “He expounded unto them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself”. It is worthy to note that Jesus used only the Scripture to establish His claims. I believe that this addition to chapter one would help to make the point clearer, seeing that the focus is on the Cosmic Christ of Scripture. Conversely, the information covered in this chapter is very informative.
Ragnheidur Olafsdottir
Comment 1
I chose to comment on Vincent´s Duncombe reading report.
I do agree with Vincent on the importance of Holistic thinking. The matter of Sin and Salvation is such a broad and deep matter (something that the angels even desire to look into 1.peter 1:12). How humans inherited sinful nature should also be a part of our Holistic Thinking and the origin of the Sin of Adam and Eve has been a debate for a long time. Who is to blame, is it Adam or is it Eve, or could a part of it be just us, the choices we have made in our own life. After all we will all be held accountable for our actions and thoughts. However isn´t that kind of odd that we are debating about which is the best and most correct answer?. Humans really want to be right(the sinful nature in us) but I think that as time draws nearer to the end, true disciples of Christ will embrace and adopt a humble kind of Spirit in the sense that they will be Spirit led and will not trust on their own wisdom. We constantly have to research the Word of God and give our everyday to God.
JOSEPH WILLIAMS
Commenting on Repentence by Vincent Duncombe.....
Many people think that coming to Jesus is some how after repenting. It sounds too simple, too childish, too easy. It makes salvation out to be merciful. While coming to Jesus is the first step in salvation, it often is the hardest. Feeling bad makes more sense because it is easier. Coming to a person means making a personal sacrifice.
Response to comments made by Pranitha Pilli from Tamara Strickland-Bennett.
I really appreciated the comments and clarification made on Romans 3:21-24.It is clear that universal justification is available to those who "BELIEVE".
Pranitha presented
a "holistic" biblical perspective,while including the writings of E.G.White.
It is clear to see salvation while free, does require a demonstration of faith to be expressed on the part of the recipent.God will not force His love upon anyone,it must be experienced by choice!I was encouraged to press on to the high calling which is in Christ Jesus! I thank God fellow believers!!
I agree with Pranitha on the issue of legal universal justification. The Bible doesn't support the ideology that every member of the human family have carried the weight of their sin along with Christ on the cross. Christ is the One and Only eternal sacrificial Lamb Who has taken away the sins of the world. There's is nothing that man can do to atone for his own sin.
Response to Joseph Williams blog:
Joseph, I have struggled in the past with whether or not those throughout history who have never been exposed to the Gospel--will they be saved. I do agree with you wholeheartedly. Even in Romans chapter 2:14-16 it talks about "Gentiles who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these,although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them...in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ..." Now some may say this is talking about Gentiles who have been introduced to the Gospel, but when the text says "...by nature do the things in the law"--one could say this means the cosmos around them or the measure of faith that has been given to all humankind. I don't know, I haven't done extensive exegesis of this passage, but I do believe it supports the message in Romans 1.
Response to what Sherri Headen said on 9/27/2007 12:30 PM
Hey Sherri, Catholics believe that we are guilty for Adam and Eve’s sin. I understand that while they wouldn’t say like this, this is at least part of what they mean by their doctrine of “original sin.” Adventists emphasize more that Adam and Eve’s “original sin” affects us in that our nature is more likely to sin now than when the first couple was first created. But we are not guilty for their sin of rejecting God’s love in disobeying his will. Our culpability lies in that we ourselves have rebelled out of our own, and to a great degree free, power of choice. Is what I am saying in agreement with what you learned in your reading?
Regarding the salvation of people who never knew that our Messiah Jesus ever lived; I am totally with you that many will be saved without claiming His merits. I think we’ll be busy in heaven sharing with them how we came to love Jesus and they too will teach much about they got to love Him through nature and other revelations from God.
Response (Question) for ELEMS, Ugochukwu regarding what he said on 10/02/2007 5:09 PM
Your affirmed the article by Rodriguez entitled “Christ Saved the Human Race”. According to what you wrote, Rodriguez argues against universal salvation. Is this a concern among Adventists? I have never heard an Adventists promote this idea, have you?
Comment of Joseph Willaiams' reflection on Romans 1
I do not see any over stretch on the ontological or epistemologically claims as it relates to salvation, nor does ontology or epistemology downplay on nature. These three (ontology, epistemology and nature) point us to God – Christ points us to God, the Scriptures points us to God and nature points us God. They all have their primacies and do not conflict. Perhaps it'll better to propose a holistic view that will embrace all three
Comment on Vincent Duncombe’s Reflection on “Adam and the Human Race” by Angel Rodriguez
Obviously, if say that Adam could not pass on righteousness to subsequent generations of the human race because his own character and nature had been marred by sin, then it logically follows that he passed on what he had – the sinful nature. To say that Adam’s sin was his own and yet having a universal impact upon the human race even without a conscious choice as in Romans 3:10,23 is contradictory. I think we must adopt a holistic view to the problem of sin – we are both sinful by nature and choice.
I appreciate Sherri Headen's comments on how sin was passed on to the human race through Adam. This is not a very easy subject to understand, and it takes courage to try to help others comprehend In her closing remarks,Sherri used a good example to emphasize the point,as she explained her adoption,and the fact that she has traits of those who raised her.
I beleive the best way for us to be like Jesus is to look full in Hs wonderful Face.As the word says "by beholding we become changed". Adam got us into this mess of sin,BUT Jesus has provided a way of escape.No matter how it all got started, Jesus said "It is finished"!!!
I must agree with Tamara concerning the comments made from EGW "Christ Our Righteousness". When I think back to the amount of faith the martyrs had during the Dark Ages, I'm completely astounded. One must have such a measure of faith to lay down your life--knowing it may be taken in a gruesome manner. Faith must become who we are. It's not just a matter of having faith, but becoming faith. Everything, we say, do, think, or feel must become a product of faith in Christ Jesus.
Response to :ELEMS, Ugochukwu - Steps to Christ, Chaps1-3
You used an interesting quotation from Ellen White in your reflection. "Nothing less than infinite sacrifice made by Christ in behalf of fallen man could express the Father's love to humanity." If you think about the models that we mentioned in class, like the substitution model, or satisfaction model for explaining Christ’s death, White here introduces another model, it was necessary to express the Father’s love for us fallen beings. This is wonderful. I also liked the fact that you picked up on something I found when going through Steps to Christ and it is that you can come to Jesus before repenting! This is awesome. With this understanding we first respond to Jesus call, and then He gives us the power to truly repent.
In response to Vincent Duncombe and Ragnheidur Olafsdottir, I agree that the debate over the origin of sin is one that has been going on for centuries, and will continue to be studied throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity. I don't believe we can come to a conclusive answer on this debate on this side of eternity. Now, I do believe the Holy Spirit gives us enough insight to walk in faith. I don't know whether sin has replicated through earth's generations thru just Adam, a combination of Adam and Eve, just Eve, solely from our own sins, or a combination of the aforementioned. What's important-a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, allowing His righteousness to cover our innate unrighteousness.
Response to: Pranitha Pilli Steps to Christ Ch 3
I agree with your example of Justification being a gift that we have to take, and in addition it is something that we must experience presently. This goes back to our model in class of justification being past, present and future. It is all of these. In Romans Ch 3, you made note that Paul is leveling the playing field. This tells us today of God’s justice in judging us. No one has an unfair advantage where salvation is concerned, even someone born into the worst family in the worst area of the world still is level with someone who was born into a Christian family. This is an amazing work of God that gives everyone equal opportunity.
A reflection on Jimmy A. Munoz’s “heretical parable” 9/26/2007
You ask the question whether this parable in any way resemble how Christ’s salvation works. Well first of all I would have to put up a disclaimer and mention that first of all that we must recognize that this is just a ‘parable’ or model, as stated in class. Already, by stating this we have discovered that it will not accurately describe everything about Christ’s salvation. However, in some ways it may resemble some aspects of Christ’s substitution. The part where it talks about the Dean being ashamed of his sons bad grades and turning away from him, and then giving him a second chance just because he was the Dean does not really fit our theology. However, the parable if taken just as a model could be helpful to someone. But it can only go so far.
Reflection to Tamara Strickland-Bennett... "In the world we live today, many people believe that man has a good nature.Many believe if man exercises enough will power and self discipline,man can do good without any outside intervention." It seems like it is the implicit culture of our church. When I came back to the church six years ago, I told someone that I could never see myself blacksliding or going one day without Jesus. Oh how I was wrong
Response to Jimmy A. Munoz said...
Reading Some Theological Considerations of Perfection by Edward Heppenstall. Last year, Dr Hanna had us read a book on salvation. They made us study the difference between character perfection and nature perfection. It was eye opening.
I was reading a few posts back. I really liked what Tamara said about Abraham respecting the integrity of God. I never thought of that. Its like saying we offend God when we do not trust Him.
In response to Jimmy. When I first read "grace is only for sinners" I felt like you did. I think because it seems to be an exclusive statment. But then we are all sinners, every one, so then "Grace is for everyone".
In response to Sherri. When you were talking about God caring for the inward man in regards to the Jews. I thought of Is 58 where God says I don't care for your Sabbaths or your feast. This concept goes back into the Old Testament. Although God outlined a lot of external things for the Jews to do, He seems to always have been about the inward parts. As He said of David, a man after My own heart.
Commenting on ELEMS, Ugochukwu Reflection on “Salvation by Faith” Blog
That is a excellent analysis of what it means to live the Christian life. Justification frees the believer to follow God and sanctification is the following of God, cling to him, giving oneself completely to him. The tension is when we have to settle it in our minds that they both gifts of God
Response to ELEMS, Ugochukwu said...
Comment of Joseph Williams' reflection on Romans 1.
I don't believe in knowing the Gospel and responding to the Gospel. I am arguing for a more holistic model in the evangelical word that says one can't be saved unless they have knowledge of the gospel and God's Son. I am actually proposing a more open view to the reach of God's love and grace.
Response to what Joseph Williams said on 10/10/2007 8:24 PM
Hi there fellow former Pharisee. I appreciate your honesty. Sometimes I am grateful that I was not born during the time of Christ. His ways are so different than the way things “should” be than I am afraid I would have rejected Him like most did. That I still following Him now is also a work of His grace. If it is not by his compassion and acceptance, I could never get it. I mean accept it.
While being an imperfect perfect or having a victorious limp sounds too good to be true, I with you will move forward to gain the victory as we admit shortcomings.
Comment on Jimmy A. Munoz said...
The article “Justification by Faith and Judgment According to Works” by Ivan T
I also concur, after all, who is really righteous but One (the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth). He is our righteousness - whether we speak in terms of justification, sanctification or glorification. Let's give praises.
Comment on Joseph Williams said...
In “Justification in Romans 3:21-24”, by Dr. Rodriguez
It is perhaps the highest representation of self-deceit when we deliberately fail to acknowledge our sin and our helplessness. Indeed, as Paul declared in Romans 1, it is premeditated and deliberate when humans deny God or act as if there were no God and that we could fix up our lives by our own effort. If only we let go pride, we shall see our dire need for loving Savior who has given up His ALL to redeem us. Such a salvation CANNOT be said of works on our part.
Ragnheidur Olafsdottir ( Lala)
Response to Tamara´s blog on Romans 2 and 3.
I do agree that God tells us to not judge, but nevertheless it is also true that all around us we see this wicked world and we can´t but be horrified by it. However what I think has been the major confusion in the religious world today is the very fact that we cannot distinguish between the works and the sinner. This is something God always does, otherwise He wouldn´t be able to love us. God can look at us and love the person but hate the Sin in our lives. When we don´t keep this in mind at all times, we begin to focus on our works and the works of other people. But all along God has asked us to love others the way HE loves them--to love people apart from their works. THis is of course almost impossible for us since we cannot see the sinner apart from His works. However it doesn´t excuse us, we should still try to look at humanity with the very eyes of God, with the same heart as God. Only then can we at least start to care for others and really love them, sympathise with them knowing that we yearn for the same view of forgiveness in our own lives. The strange part is that God also takes into consideration our works, but in another way that we humans do, He focuses on our faith in the works and ultimately God´s ways are so much above our own thinking. We must at all times be reminded that God is the only one who can handle looking at humanity and at the very same time judge humanity through His everlasting love.
I agree with Jimmy Munoz on not being convinced that grace is only for sinners. I don't know, maybe my definition of grace is offset. I recently did a small study on the meaning of grace (not exhaustive in the least)and the definition I found is "unmerited divine assistance". Now it seems to me, that even those of us who are in relationship with Christ--are traveling a road called sanctification, which is a process (in one respect). Until we reach the glorification attained at Christ return, we are not perfect, (meaning no higher level of attainment is possible) and I believe that even when we are living in the direct presence of Christ in Heaven and the earth made new--we will still continue to grow, mature, and attain higher levels of perfection. Understanding this--how is it possible that we do not need divine assistance even now? And, the last time I checked--I did not and I do not deserve God's assistance (even though I am a Christian).
LaLa, I appreciate a couple of commments you made concerning the faith/works debate, one in particular--"...faith will work in us". I couldn't have said it better myself. For centuries, the debate over whether faith or works takes home the trophy has begun to get on my nerves. I believe we all need to seriously seek the Holy Spirit's direction when studying scripture, and study the scriptures wholistically. Then we will learn that faith will indeed "work" in us. Because of our faith in Christ, we will work/SERVE (maybe it's the semantics game again) Him.
Jimmy Munoz, posed a serious hypothetical question. Paraphrasing--would Elijah and Enoch be understanding of our waiting for higher transformation at translation or might they suggest that this is a dangerous idea that might be keeping us from letting God take us to the heights he has for us? I will admit, I'm perplexed. I realize that full surrender to Christ/the work of the Holy Spirit is what we should strive for in "Christian perfection", but I wonder whether Elijah and Enoch were at this point when they were taken. Was every single area of their lives totally relinquished to God, or were there still glimpses of self. I don't know, there's not a lot written about Enoch's day to day life, but we know Elijah had some serious days of doubt within his ministry. In summary, what does it look like/feel like to be TOTALLY (no self whatsoever) surrendered to Christ? Can this be attained while on this earth?
My comment on Sherry Headen´s blog on Reflection on “Christ Saved the Human Race” by Angel Manuel Rodriguez.
I read the same article as Sherry did and I felt enlightened. It seems that Ellen White can always enlighten us even though we face the most complicated issues/topics. What I felt Sherry was saying, was that Adam and Eve(after the fall) didn´t have what it took to resist Sin and therefore they couldn´t pass something on to future descendants that wasn´t within them. And for me this is a new understanding of how Sin works in us and I did sense that Sherry was experiencing the same understanding as I did.(Nice to know that we are all progressing and coming to a new understanding!!) However because Adam and Eve could do nothing of themselves to save themselves from this pit of Sin, God provided them with hope of Salvation. What I found fascinating was realizing that even though we can do nothing of ourselves, God still is faithful to us and gives us the hope of Salvation, but it has to be through Jesus Christ. Hope becomes our ANCHOR in this life and if we have hope we most certainly must have FAITH. And ultimately God is the only one knowing what kind of faith and hope dwells within us, is it a hope of everlasting life just because we don´t want to die eternally, or is it the hope of a life lived in the beauty and purity of God. I guess we all have to examine ourselves there, is our "blessed hope" a genuine one or a selfish one. Anyway I am enjoying this class very much and all my fellow classmates comments.
Blessings to all of you,
Lala
Response to what Pranitha Pilli posted on 10/05/2007 9:23 PM
Kitty, it has been a while since you posted these questions, but because they resonate with mine, I decided to bring them up again in hope that Dr. Hanna will take the time to discuss these with us in class. Here is how you asked the questions:
“Why it is that it was Jesus who had to die? Who determined the wages of sin, that the second death was its penalty?”
Why couldn’t God save Adam without having Jesus die? Ellen White in commenting on Genesis 3 wrote: “(Adam) trembled at the thought that his sin must shed the blood of the spotless Lamb of God… his transgression, nothing but the death of God's dear Son could expiate.” {PP 68.1} To this thought my immediate question is: Why is this so? Why couldn’t God save Adam without having Jesus die?
Lala´s comment on Kitty´s blog and also on Jimmy´s response to that blog(Why did Jesus have to die?).
Well I can say that I have shared the same thoughts as both of you are going through and in my case I feel that it suddenly opened up for me not so long ago. Of course my understanding is just mine but I felt like sharing it with you.
As I understand it, Jesus isn´t just Jesus, He is God.
And since God allowed all created beings to have a Free will, God would also have to deal with the consequenses of allowing this Free Will. But God didn´t just decide He would give Men/Women and all created beings(angels etc) Free Will... NO! He could not have done it differently, because God is Love, and TRUE LOVE will never use force. SO God could not force us to love Him. And how could a person or a created being ever love God truly, without having Free will to do so? Well this goes on...God being the one who "has" to give us Free Will because that is HE WHO HE IS, also loves us so much that He says.."I will take the blame for my own Character/attributes, I will take the blame for having given you Free Will"(GOD is accused of giving Free will to created beings..because if Free Will had not been given, then there would have been NO SIN IN THE UNIVERSE). So God decided from the foundations of the world/universe that He would always take the blame for His own attributes...and that is why Jesus came to earth...because Jesus IS THIS GOD WHO TOOK/TAKES THE BLAME. Had Jesus himself not been worthy of the task (to not Sin)then God himself wouldn´t be God anymore.(because Jesus is God)..And because God/Jesus is Love(I AM)there is no Sin in GOD to be found. In fact, God would have to cease being God if Jesus/God had failed...So THIS IS WHAT JESUS DID FOR US, not only did He give us ALL with Him(eternal life etc,Free Will), but He proved that God will take the blame even for being the "good one"(because wasn´t God being wonderful when He gave us Free Will?.. but Satan´s accuse is that God led created beings into a trap and that there is no Free Will after all because God will destroy those who won´t follow Him).
In one of my classes this summer I heard Dr.Jo Ann saying something so BEAUTIFUL...she said that the Rainbow...is a bow...that is turned towards God and not towards men(those who know how to shoot from a bow understand this analogy, think of the shape of the Rainbow..to whom is it turned to?). Just imagen...He/GOD even did put in the sky the sign of His everlasting love for us(His Covenant that He would take the blame), God surely is righteous...HOLY HOLY HOLY is His name(the Trinity), WORTHY IS THE LAMB(Rev 5:9). I pray that God will fill us all with His Wonderful Holy Spirit so that we might grasp better and better the wonderful things He has done for us...
Lord, thank you for FREE WILL in my life..it makes be able to love you, not like a robot but with all my heart,with all my soul, with all my mind and with all my strength(Jesus´Words - Mark 12:30)
Blessings to all of you,
Lala
Comment on Jimmy A. Munoz said...
“His law Is faulty” said the devil?
I think the Scripture supports Ellen White's presupposition about the point that the great controversy is over the character of God (which is revealed in the Law) and that the devil claimed that the law of God is faulty.
In the first place, “sin is the transgression of the law” I John 3:4 and if Satan sinned (which he really did), then he transgressed the law of God. And if he transgressed the law of God, then He has also denied and faulted the character of God which is expressed in the Law (Psalm 119:142; Romans 7:12).
Comment on Vincent Duncombe posting on Angel Rodriguez in his document concerning Adam and the Human Race
Indeed, I agree that the issue of the nature and extent of the impact of Adam’s sin call for elaborate discussion than Rodriguez presented in his article, for I further think that there is sense in which Adam’s sin was passed on to all generations of humanity and there is still another sense in which EVERYONE is responsible for his/her sin.
Response to what Ugochukwu posted on 10/26/2007 2:41 PM
Ugochukwu, I like the question you are asking. Does Paul say “that Christ fulfilled all the requirement of the law for those who by faith believe in Him?” The part I would you like to talk to you about, maybe over break in class next week is, how did you get this idea from Romans 10:6 and 7 which reads: “But the way of getting right with God through faith says, “You don’t need to go to heaven” (to find Christ and bring him down to help you). And it says, “You don’t need to go to the place of the dead” (to bring Christ back to life again)?”
Responding to Geoffrey:
I agree with you that a misunderstanding of Romans 8:28 has contributed to many warped theology that we see parading itself in our churches today. It is inconceivable to think that we are much more special than those who are daily affected by the ills of our day. Thank goodness that Paul is balanced in his understanding of the arguments he presents. This is much relief, for when we examine this statement in its broader context; we can fully appreciate what he is communicating.
This, I believe is the perspective that our professor is communicating in his lectures-the need for a broader understanding of how we view salvation, and by extension the scriptures.
Response to what Sherri Headen posted on 10/18/2007 5:09 PM
Eahooooo, sister Haden, I liked your conclusion “Christian perfection is total surrender to the will of God and the power of the Holy Spirit in your heart and mind.” I too have been around people who were befuddled about what perfection looks like. In many cases this confusion boils down to a masticating matter. I have seen people who thought that when you gave up cheese, then you were perfect. It is a sad thing, not to say ridiculous.
Comment on Sherri Headen said...
“How to Tell if God is Leading”
PORTION OF MORNING TALK AT COPENHAGEN, DENMARK, JULY 21, 1886, TITLED "SEARCH THE SCRIPTURES." PUBLISHED IN THE REVIEW AND HERALD, APRIL 3, 1888.
And this is very true of our Christian journey (our salvific experience), we never get to point where we can claim to have arrived. Rather like Paul, we keep pressing upward and onward to mark of the price of the high calling in Jesus Christ. We shall not only continue to study but also to daily experience the joy and power of His presence.
Comment on Sherri Headen said...
Page 19 Steps To Christ
And come to think of it, can anything good proceed from corruption? "A good man out of his good treasures brings forth good gifts" and "every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit." Matthew 7:17. The point is that we can never, never please God by trying hard at keeping the law, for we are sinners and the best of our efforts as filthy rags (Isa. 64:6.
We desperately, direly and unavoidably need the grace God through the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit to do the will of God (keep the law).
Comment on Jimmy A. Munoz said...
Ok. I have a stand on Universal Legal Justification.
I think it'll work perhaps for a congregation that is not given to in dept study of the Bible, but once there is a strong desire to study in order to better understand God's plan and operation in the salvific history, these concerns are inevitables that must be confronted.
You made reference to Romans 5:8-10 in attempt to buttress your position, but the same text insinuates both the objective and subjective views. Paul in verse 8 speaks of God's love for rebels (objective), but in verses 9-10, he also speaks of the ones who have reconciled to God(subjective). Or shall we expunge other Scriptural texts like Romans 8:1; John 3:6; that speak of subjective love or shall we delete such passages that speak of objective love Romans 5:8; John 3:16? I think what what we need is a holistic model as Dr. Hanna proposes, that will accommodate both views, for both are biblical.
Ugochukwu: Thank you for your response to my posting in which I suggested a “ducking approach” to this ongoing battle about Objective and Subjective Justification. You suggested that what “we need is a holistic model as Dr. Hanna proposes, that will accommodate both views, for both are biblical.” This approach seems to work fairly well in a scenario such as we have here at the seminary. But as Dr. Hanna, you, and I know, many deep students of the Bible indeed scholars out there in our churches do no think so. I don’t know if claiming holism you wouldn’t end up being called a “Hegelian Dualist.”
Vincent I appreciate your wrestling with the difficult subject of predestination in Romans 11. You commented: “In verse 7 onward, there again appears in Paul this predestination language. Here he states that the election had attained, but the rest were blinded. Reading these passages it seems that God is actually placing road blocks in the way of some individuals which are allowing them not to be saved. However, this is not the case. It is because of their disobedience that they have blinded themselves…”
However, predestination as proposed by Calvinists could hardly be reputed with the argument of Pharaoh's hardened heart. The same sun that melts the wax hardens the clay. Calvinists believe that God is the One who decides whether you are wax or clay.
I hope Dr. Hanna shares his wisdom with us on this subject before the semester is over.
In Response to ELEMS post, on “Salvation by Faith” By Jan Paulsen.
I see that you also noticed that Paulsen pointed out that we should not separate what God does and what we do. However, I think that this is only a problem because some people misinterpret what is being said by this distinction. For example in your class we recognize the 4 works of the Holy Spirit and our responses to those works (our surrender). While we do not get any merit because we have surrendered it is necessary that we do because we must co-operate with God’s working. What I do like about his presentation, which you pointed out as well, is that the objective and subjective parts must go together. God justifies us however; this justification leads to a life experience with Him; one that changes us into His image.
A Response to Joseph Williams 10/10/2007 7:28 PM
I saw an interesting phrase that you used when reflecting on Romans 5. You mentioned that, “salvation has many more benefits to the recipient than sin does.” This is interesting and correct, however, it seems that many times we are blinded to this fact and still choose the sin over righteousness. Ellen White backs this statement up by stating that everything that God asks us to do is always for our best interest. So then the question is why do we keep on choosing what is not good for us? Also I found interesting the mention that salvation is free and the other option you have to work for. This is actually biblical. “The wages of sin is death,” you get wages or paid when you have worked for something. So you work and your pay is death … or you can take the eternal life … a free gift. Of course this can be taken to the extreme but it is a good analogy.
This is a response to the posting by Jimmy Munoz 10/12/2007, on Justification by Faith and Judgement according to Works. I apprieciate this posting because first of all I have not gone through this article and it presents a very interesting idea, that Justification and Judgement is based on two different things. I have never thought about these two being separated in this manner. So because of that I am glad that you sparked my interest in this article. That being said I am not 100% certian that I am in agreement with what is being said, this maybe due to the fact that I have not yet seen the article. My disagreement comes because it seems by the phrase 'judgement by works', that somehow in the judgement our works allow us to be cleared. You still do not receive any credit. It is by faith that you were justified and that faith worked, Christ worked in you. And no amount of human work could justify you enough to pass the Judgement. I think that because you were Justified you can stand in the Judgement. Judgement by works ... but by Christ's works.
This is a response to the posting by Jimmy Munoz 10/31/2007, on Legal Justification. I must say first off, I hear your frustration. I have also read many of the articles that are basically responses to univseral legal justifcation. I understand your frustration, because I have found myself saying, "again?" when I started reading another article on this same issue. However, I am not necessarily inclined to be more sympathetic with universal legal justification as presented by Rodriguez. What maybe throwing you is the way in which he presents this type or model for justification. While I am clearly not siding with the 1888 study committee there are somethings to consider, for instance what about primative people who have never heard the gospel? Will "universal legal justification" apply to them so that they can be saved? Just reflecting on the question just now I don't think this is the case. For it seems that people will be judged based on the light they received. There light may have only been what was revealed in nature. After all the things of God are clearly revealed in nature so that they are without excuse. Something to think about.
This is a response to the post by Elems, Ugochukwu 11/07/2007, on "Justification and the Cross." I am in agreement with Rodriguez in this article in spirit. By this I mean that it is obvious that from Rodriguez's articles, he is defending two theological issues, one being the fact that 'universal legal justification' is incorrect and two, that everyone was somehow present in Adam at the time of his sin. And I do not believe that the entire human race was in Adam. So I agree. As he points out the entire human race feels the effects and are affected by Adams sin. I think that for some persons it maybe helpful to describe it as you have objective and subjective/experiential sin. In your post you did meniton that your view slightly varied from Rodriguez's conception because death reigned from Adam to Moses etc. However, I don't see how this differs from Rodriguez's point of view and I don't think that he would have a problem accepting the fact that death's reign is one of the universal impacts of Adam's sin.
This is a response to the post by Sherri Headen 11/07/2007, on Romans 4. I think that you did a good job of highlighting some of the important points in this chapter. I agree that there must have been some law in existence from the beginning of time. I thought that Dr. Hanna's explaination of that law being self-control also was a very interesting presentation and controversal. However, I think you are right their must have been some law in exsistence. I noticed that you used some of our traditional adventist explanation of the "law" in Romans by dividing it between moral and ceremonial law. I have a slightly different take to this after hearing a presentation done by Dr. Hanna on this division of the law into moral and ceremonial. While I will not get into this discussion here I do agree on the context of Romans as you have described here. The Jews were stressing that keeping the law had a direct relation to salvation. I would however, rephrase the last portion of your post to say that they should have stressed true faith in and love of God/Christ and this will bring about a transformation into "His Character", which is really adherence to The Law (inclusive) because The Law is just a transcript of His Character.
This is a response to the post by Sherri Headen 11/07/2007, on 'page 19 Steps to Christ. I like the fact that you again bring up a tension between law bringing wrath and also being holy. And I guess as Dr. Hanna has said maybe it is both. How is this possible? Well the law shows us that we are unjust and sinners worthy of the Wrath of God, yet the Law is not the problem it is us sinners that is the problem. The Law remains holy and perfect. I think Paul also says this. I like the fact that you point out that the law is just a mirror pointing out our mistakes/sins. If you think of it this could also solve the problem of the law bringing wrath and still remaining holy. However, thanks for pointing out that despite the fact that we cannot keep the law perfectly, we still have a savior who can cover us with his righteousness. Amen.
This is a response to the posting by Jimmy Munoz 11/14/2007, on predestination in Romans 11. First of all I appreciate the fact that you went back to this. We touched on this subject very lightly when we went over Romans 8 in class. However, I like you think that we should probably spend more time on this since it think it is an important subject related to salvation. Having said that I have heard of an explanation for these texts in relation to the text during the exodus, where it says that God hardened Pharaoh’s heart. It is shown that it was really Pharaoh’s constant turning back on his word that hardened his heart over time. However, it is expressed as God hardening his heart. This can probably be applied to these texts in Romans 11. I however, still have some reluctance about this explanation, I am not sure if it is complete enough, because the language used in these passages are so strong.
Response to Vincent
I like your assessment of the relationship between trusting God, having faith, and obedience. You wrote among other things that “if you are saved you will produce fruit.” However I was not clear what you understand by the phrase “justification is the source of sanctified fruit.” Could you unpack this?
Sherri,
Congratulations on finishing this course strong. I liked your discussion of Ellen White’s counsel to A. T. Jones to make sure his audience didn’t think he was saying that God did not plan for them to live holy lives. I also appreciated your paraphrase of Jesus’ summary of his Message to love God supremely and humans as much as we love ourselves.
I have enjoyed this class. I liked how our teacher was willing to discuss difficult subjects on the spot. I appreciate this because this is what real-life in ministry is like. I have enjoyed reading people’s postings and writing my own. May His grace and power fill out hearts and minds as we deal with the stress of finals. I have been taking 8 classes this semester :( But I am also all done and going back home soon :)
This is a response made to the post by Joseph 12/05, on the article, “Some thoughts on original sin.” I liked the point you made as you were ending that every good work manifested on the earth is of God and as sin pervades this world likewise, Christ pervades this world. I believe that this is true. Yet it is interesting that maybe some acts which are committed in the world that may appear to be ‘good’ may yet not be of God because they are done with the wrong motives. We cannot fully tell. I think that this was a good response however I would have like to hear your thoughts on some of the issues dealt with in the article or what you thought about the article on a whole. Was it good? Did you disagree with anything? Etc.
This a response to the posting by ELEMS Ugochukwu, 12/06/2007. First of all I must say that I am impressed by the way in which your post was presented. It was really clear and you systematically went through the reading from Steps to Christ, asked the questions and then provided the answer. You asked why do we not believe more. I think that you are correct when you say later on that we need to be “growing in grace.” In other words, the reason why so many of us still doubt is because we do not exercise our faith enough. The only way to build faith is to exercise it. Daily reliance upon God for sustenance will lead to greater faith in Him and less doubting.
Lala´s comment on Sherri´s thoughts on the article; How Perfect is “Perfect or is Christian Perfection Possible?
I especially liked your comment when you said that if we were sinless or if that was something we could work our way to..then Holy Spirit would one day be useless to us.
However...my thoughts go into eternity...I quess at all times we will need the Holy Spirit even though we will be without sin.
The mystery is that God will never take away our free will...we will only use it for good for all eternity with the help of THe Holy Spirit.
But I liked the idea which I heard from another class..that we are perfect at every stage in our lives...at least God sees it that way...like little babies are perfect when they are born even though they are not able to feed themselves or walk or anything.
We are perfect in this sense to God..He makes Him responsible for the growth inside of us.
If we trust Him we have nothing to worry! Amen
when i read the assignment posted by David, i was eager to comment.
On one side, i like the fact that he accepted the sin exist because of evil.Sin suppreses goodness and trueth that our God wants us to manifest.Sin prevents us from being one with God and doing His will and that is why we have to struggle with it each and everyday.
On the hand, i dissagree on the fact that we should not read other documents like the ones presented by BRI. According to David, he just wants to read book only specific writters like Ellen white, but for me, reading beyond Ellen White opens our mind so that we can think wholistically.
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