Comments on assignments for Doctrine of Salvation, Fall 2008
This thread is reserved for your comments and ongoing discussion regarding the assignments posted in the previous thread.
147 comments:
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I would like to comment on the assinment posted by Wayne Long. I really appreciated your statement about Ellen White's desire to be sanctified. If only we could all capture her zeal for the Lord I believe that we would accomplish much as Christians. Also, your statement about Paul saying that all people could know God from nature was intersting to me. I have found myself reevaluating my own thoughts on this part of Romans. My question to you and myself and all of the class is this, is Paul talking about historically people exchanged the things of God, or currently? I would love further comment on this.
reading your analysis I enjoyed how you emphasized the need for us to experiment in order to be able to experience salvation. I also enjoyed the fact that you pointed out that the influence of sin plays a huge role in our lives - more than we could ever imagine or comprehend. That shows us just how much we need Christ for even the smallest of things.
I agree with you on your interpretation of Romans 1:16 - I believe that it directly relates to Christ's fulfilled mission - as was referenced a few verses earlier.
Response to Wayne Long's comment at 9/02/2008 12:36 AM:
Wayne, I want to thank you for highlighting the intensity of Ellen White's desire to experience God's salvation. This jumped out to me as well as an example that is worthy to follow.
I'd like to expand upon your thoughts on "God gave them up". It seems to me that when Paul says God gave them up it means God removed some restraining grace that was holding back to power of evil in their lives. The Greek verb there is Paradidomi which means to hand over to the power of another. So because of their choice to ignore God's revelation, God put them under the power of their sinful tendencies and the sinful behaviors resulted.
The point I get from this is that our choice is not so much what we will choose to do or not do, but what spiritual power we will accept into our lives to influence our choices.
Response to the assignment written by Balthazar: I liked the idea where you mentioned that we are shaped by what we have inherited from Adam, the sin and because we were borne in sin we can not comprehend Jesus sacrifice and what He has done for us. Thing which make the whole plan of redemption the greatest work, plan which will understand entirely in eternity with God.
I would like to say more about the struggle which Ellen White had about the understanding of sanctification and perfection. Salvation is simple and complicate in the same time; it is a gift but a gift which must be accepted. The same struggle we have today also because it is a process
I would like to comment Laurentiu Roman’s comments. I think you really summed in up well. God didn’t stop loving us after sin. His promise to send the redeemer was an act of compassion and grace. Further then that, His act of creation itself is an act of grace. God has always loved humanity and there has never been a time in history or will there be where this is not true. Your thoughts I believed echoed this premise and I appreciate them.
I also like something else you said in connection with the online article and class discussion. You stated that salvation can not be a condition but rather a process. Even though we can experience the benefits of it now, it is still a process that will never end until we reach glory.
Hi Betty, I must commend you for your bold step in seeking to advance your studies in the Mdiv. Program based on your background as you have disclosed in the blog. I must say that being at the seminary is a learning experience for both teachers and students alike. Some of us have to learn and unlearn some of the things we were taught and things we thought we really understood and really had a handle on. I want to respond to a question that seems to be puzzling you as I read your comments. You said you don’t understand how Adam accepted the gift of salvation and when that happened. Well, as far as the biblical record is concerned, salvation is a gift that all human beings receive through faith (Eph. 2:8). Humanity’s salvation is and has always been guaranteed in not what we can do but what God has done for mankind through Christ. Prior to Adam’s sin, a contingency plan was in place just in case man sinned. When Adam sinned, the contingency plan was revealed to Adam (Rev. 13:8; Gen. 3:15; John 3:16). Adam through faith prior to Christ’s advent, sacrificed animals in anticipation of Christ’s offering of Himself at Calvary. In essence, the animals that Adam sacrificed was a faith expression in Christ’s blood which was to be shed for mankind because without the shedding of blood there is no remission for sins (Heb. 9:22). Consequently, Adam and his descendants were accounted righteous based on their expression of faith in the blood of Christ typified by the animals which they sacrificed. It is important to note also that just like Adam, we have to look to the cross in faith for salvation. Adam looked forward in faith while he offered animal sacrifices, while we look backward to the cross as we exercise faith in Christ’s sacrifice for us. I could go on Betty but I hope I answered your question. (Sheldon)
I appreciated your reaction on the concept of faith to faith as stated by Apostle Paul and tied it together with Ellen G White's acknowledgment of Sanctification as a life time walk with God. As we do not believed in the concept of "Ones saved always save." There must be a continuation walk of a sinner save by grace with the Holy Spirit that does the sanctifying work in the sinner's life. But my concern is in the conclusion where "man is not saved by the deeds of the law." I'm sure we concluded in class that we should not separated the two for the Apostle also appealed that the doers of the law but not the hearers that justified. There is a need to look at the wider spectrum of the Apostle's writing to help us to see the Apostle is dealing with particular problem within the churches in each of his epistles. Its just to clarify the conclusion of our class; Thanks for the reflection paper, Jung
Greatly I do I agree with the wonderful insight in his exposition regarding the matter at floor and thus is the Universal Salvation. I am impressed of his idea about observation that some Christians have on the idea of them been saved and hence they don’t need anything to do. This is the assumption that has led many to not embrace the whole facet of salvation and only took the part of grace and forget the human responsibility, thus; Choice.
Hence the point of sanctification as seen by many as been a legalistic issue is to be discarded and should be well know that it is a process that shall lead one to the place of glorification. Ellen White did have that confusion too, and Morumbwa clearly stated that. In Jesus we are saved from our past, present and future sins and in Christ we have to abide and live according to the will of God and this is choice made by an individual.
Greatly I do I agree with the wonderful insight in his exposition regarding the matter at floor and thus is the Universal Salvation. I am impressed of his idea about observation that some Christians have on the idea of them been saved and hence they don’t need anything to do. This is the assumption that has led many to not embrace the whole facet of salvation and only took the part of grace and forget the human responsibility, thus; Choice.
Hence the point of sanctification as seen by many as been a legalistic issue is to be discarded and should be well know that it is a process that shall lead one to the place of glorification. Ellen White did have that confusion too, and Morumbwa clearly stated that. In Jesus we are saved from our past, present and future sins and in Christ we have to abide and live according to the will of God and this is choice made by an individual.
Comments on David Hamstra's week two reflection I appreciated your analysis of the last class discussion and look forward to delving into those phrases more deeply as well. I also liked your wording on Romans as a leveling of the playing field. I think that is exactly what Paul was doing and you did an excellent job of articulating that.
I agree with you in what you say about the fact that we make things more complicated than they need to be;
I also agree with you when you say that we as Adventists need to go through a introspective analysis, it is in some areas of our religious culture, a imperative.
Response to Wayne Long- and Wendy Feese's documents
I agree that Whidden's proposal of Sister White's humanity, and her own personal struggles with it is illuminating. It does us well to know that like many of the faith Giants- had their struggles when they encountered Christ- and continued to do so-
I like your examples with the baby. My pastor once used baby as an illustration, similiar to your example. Many times we tend to be very selfish, and try to do thing in our own benefit. We pray to God, asking Him to bless us more than to pray to bless others.
Comment on Tiago Baltazar's post at 9/09/2008 8:36 PM
I liked your analysis of Ellen White's position on justification as "faith in response".
I also think you're correct that the goal of Romans 2 is to induce soul searching in believers. Could this be taken to mean that absolute assurance of salvation was not Paul's goal in writing Romans?
Response to the assignment written by Jung Yoo Kim I agree with you . more you study about this subject, more confuse you become. And what we understand now is only a part from the whole plan of salvation. The rest it will be discovered to us in heaven.
I like the idea that “Adam brought one sin but Christ brought sufficient justification for multitude of sins.” God relay wants to save us.
I agree with Wendy that we we need to understand clearly the issue of salvation. we should not pretend to know more but we should seek for carity as we procced with the class.
Thanks bro for the well reflected paper on our inability to save ourselves from the penalty of sin. I totally agree with you on the idea of universal justification because it comes back to the respond of the individual for the “gift” of grace is superior than the “trespass” as the Apostle Paul [Rom 5: 15- 17] but God never forced us to accept His gift for He still respect our freedom of choice. However, I’m a bit concern with the expression “the sins of Adam were transmitted to all”; do you mean the result of Adam’s sin affected the human race, because if the sin was transmitted then we can simply say that Adam’s sin becomes our sin; PLEASE I JUST WANTED TO UNDERSTAND, may be you can help me when we meet in class
comment on Tiago Baltazar's paper first point I agree is that he said; justification by faith is a constant presence in all Scripture." and it true, when Jesus was walking around healing people He often said; by faith you are healed. second point i agree is that God is working in our hearts whether we acknowledge Him or not, because when I was not acknowledging God, He was working in my heart.
My response to Tiago's Paper I agree that Whidden did excellent research on the life of EGW and her struggles with conversion. I also must agree that Romans 2 makes it very clear that salvation is indeed a free gift.
In reaction to James' third reflection, I appreciated your statements about temporary vs. eternal nature of salvation and that God through Jesus gives us eternal salvation, something we humans can't do. I also agree with your statement about God's foreknowledge, though I think it may be a somewhat simplistic way of looking at it. I have thought of it the same way for a long time, but I do not think that explination totally answers the difficulty of the philosophical dicotomy of freedom and foreknowledge. I will look forward to continuing to look at the Biblical perspective on that subject.
I appreciate your practical approach to both concepts of foreknowledge and predestination. I will agree with Wendy that they can be more explored, but it seems a practical clean explanation. I also enjoyed how you analyzed the concept of salvation. It seems that we sometimes get limited by our own temporal concept of salvation.
I think you're right, Baltazart. I like the way that Ellen White is shown, not as some superhuman, but a person with struggles like any of us. What amazes me most, though, is the determined attitude to know Jesus at all costs. It's been blowing me away.
Baltazart I’m in agreement with you on several points. Firstly, isn’t Whidden doing a great job of showing us the continued struggle and development of Ellen White over the span of her life. Very enjoyable and reminds us to place her in the context of that time. It’s good to know that the God’s messenger also grows and struggles like the rest of us. In addition, the love of God as expressed in Rom 3 is indeed incredible. Paul indeed shows that they work together, going so far as to say that one cannot through out the law. For without the law there would be no view of our need for a savior. This is actually the main point of the law. (Rom 3:20).
Response to the assignment written by Jung Yoo Kim:
I agree with you when you say that “Christ saved the world. This phrase is true and untrue at the same time.” It is more comfortable to believe ans say this and people from our days like this idea, because they must not do anything to be saved, everything was done. They do not understand that if you want to be saved you must believe and accept Jesus Christ. This is, as you said, a gift, now it is up to you if you want to accept or not the gift.
Wanted to comment on Wayne's reflection on Ellen White's stance on Legal Justification. I read the same article and got the same understanding. I appreciated your thoughts on that, thank you. In your comment you made a strong emphasis on grace, which is the best thing God could have done for lost mankind. You did not mention much on the flip side of the coin, man's response to that grace, a responsible life, based on righteousness of God. I would have wanted to see that point come across as well. Thank you for your insights. Blessings
James, I really liked the analogy you used in your reflection paper. I agree with you that the word "save" when we use if means a temporary action, and that "save" based on your understanding of salvation is an "eternal" concept. Its important for us to understand this terminology that we frequently and generally use so that when we speak to others about salvation we make it clear as to what that entails. Rodriguez did not make that clarification for me, but I'll understand it better by and by.
Comment on Wendy Feese's post at 9/14/2008 9:35 PM
I thought Wendy made two great points. (1) "...the question that we have trouble answering is a philosophical question of how God can know and yet we are still free, but God never promised to answer all of our philosophical questions." This is and excellent observation, but it also must not be taken as an excuse to wrestle with the questions, within the bounds of Scripture, to see if God has something to teach us.
(2)"Even those who know the law can’t keep it to their salvation. That is not the law’s purpose. But we are saved through Christ." The purpose of the law, as Paul explains it in this chapter, is to show us our sin.
Thanks for the reflection paper, and its good to know that you are able to see the support of Ellen White to the concept of justification as indicated by the Apostle Paul in Roman 3, and also how Rodriguez supported Ellen White. I think its good how she was able to distinct the truth from other fanatical ideas of justification. So thanks for that and i totally agree with you on that. I think you summed up the class discussion pretty well, it was and is and always will be the divine will for God for us to be saved but it will be our own fault if we can't make it to eternal life. Thank alot
Comment on Reflection#2 (Sheldon Smith) I am relieved to know that I am not the only one who is hearing about this “universal legal justification” for the first time. I sensed this after reading a few of the reflections posted. It just goes to show how important it is for us to be aware of the different doctrines out there and to ensure that we are fully “cladded” in the armor of God. Also, I would like to commed Dr. Hanna for this meaningful exercise. It is really exposing us to the different views of justification and salvation that have been purported by Christians.
I am really touched by the idea expressed by Roman concerning our salvation and what God is doing. He clearly express the fact that God is doing all He can to reconcile us and He does this by not tampering on our freedom. This is the most sensitive part of salvation; “That God is not ready to force into something we don’t want.” And Roman in his reflection has really tried to examine that very well.
I appreciated your reflection paper Kolia on Ellen White's position on Universal Justification. You also emphasized the fact that God is a free to do what wants to do but when it comes to salvation, He respects our decision and will not force us into heaven. That resonated with me well because I reflected on the same. I also found the class to be profound. But the bottomline is that we should be thankful that has a loving character and will not be shaped by what we do. I just marvel at His balance, He cares for us so much but also He will let us choose our own destiny. Thanks for your contribution to the class.
I would like to respond to Panankosi's fourth reflection. I agree that it is because of limiting our understanding of scripture to one verse and not looking at the totality of what it says that we often have problems. However, that is not always the only reason for problems. Sometimes problems come because of the difficulty in understanding how different scriptures correspond. We must be weary of both possible problems.
I'd like to comment on Wendy's reflection paper #4. I agree with you that we cannot earn anything by doing as Paul pointed out. God is fair, and I love that he judges our hearts. In addition, I do feel that Whidden only scratched the surface, and that we have more to look forward to.
I agree on the point that many people misunderstand or misquote her writings and use it out of context. Many believe her to be perfect and some people even believe the Bible is perfect. I guess many misunderstand the views on thought inspiration and verbal inspiration. When he quoted the verse in Matthew 5:48; I don’t think the author mention the word perfect as being “perfect” but rather as being perfect as “love”
Well This is my first comment. For some reason I thought the commenting were in the same blog as the assignments. (I'm a slow learner) Anyway, Many people do misunderstand EGW, they do this because lets be real, if you want to find problems within people, we can usually find them. Not because they may be true, but because people see or understand what they want to see or understand. James is right on when he says that "perfect" is the "love" that christ is challenging us to be. 43-47 speaks of this perfect love.
Of course I agree with you on several points of your reflection like, Christ coming to save all those who freely choose him. I also agree with you on your example of the snake being held up for all to be saved if they would only look at it as we are to look at Christ. I guess though as I was reading your quote and mention of Ellen White I thought, if she knew that we could not be perfect why was perfection such a painstaking topic for her as illustrated in our reading this week? This is not to say that I believe that there is no reason to strive for all that God has instructed. I’m just questioning if where the balance comes and if Ellen White had that understanding (which I’m honestly assuming she did). But its still a question.
Response to the assignment written by Kurtley Knight:
i have enjoyed your comments and i am agree with you about the descriptions which Whidden is doing about Ellen White, as being a human person as you and me with mistakes and imperfections.
Response to assignment written by Roman Laurentiu.
I precisely agree with him on the idea that salvation is to all regardless of your ethnic background. Paul makes clear in the book of Romans 4, that salvation is to all, thus to the uncircumcised and the circumcised and the basis for this is by believing.
I agree with you that all of the readings this week were related and consistent with their thoughts and ideas. In addition, I too felt really good after reading Romans 5. There is this sense of peace and hope for us. However, we have this free will to accept or reject, and most of the writers from this week's reading agree that we have the propensity to reject the will of God. That fact is a little unsettling to me.
recation to kolia afamasaga reflection #5 I appreciated your comment on Romans 5:8, that it is truly amazing that God would be willing to save us while we were yet sinners. That is truly amazing. I also agree with your later statement that it is good to remember that we can no save ourselves by works as Ellen White pointed out.
I agree with you in what you say about the hope given by Romans 5. Its true that Ellen White tone seems at times discouraging, in some sense, but Paul sets a level of joy in Christ's victory that its hard to resemble.
I also agree with you in regards to what you say about reading the Scripture. It makes such a difference when we make an effort to see Christ in it. And like you said we can see the results in the same biblical story.
Comment on Tiago Baltazar's comment at 9/30/2008 9:42 PM:
I think you are onto something when you appreciate that "God was put in the center of all the initiatives and goes far beyond the value of any of human merit." For me merit is the crux of issues with legalism, and a proper understanding of human depravity and prevenient grace can help lay those issues to rest.
I also agree with you that in many ways chapter 5 is key to Romans, but Paul also lays out practical implications of the early, theological chapters in the second part of Romans. I like to connect Paul's peacemaking exhortations in Romans 12 to Romans 5 and the peacemaking God did with us.
To understand that yes we "sinners" were saved while still acting in sin is truly amazing. Its amazing because I struggle to accept those who do me wrong, and yet Christ's model of unconditional love sets the standard of by which we aught to live. I agree with Tiago that EGW does somewhat sound a bit discouraging in her writings, but like us, she too is human.
Our class discussion and the lecture we have to read this week and some outside reading maximize my territory on our subject, which is salvation. In our class we continue discussing about salvation, other topic that we must study to understand salvation better. In the book of Romans especially,chapter 5, Paul declare that we were separated from God,we were His enemies but because of God's grace he sent his son to die for us on the cross, and experiencedcruciating pain he did not deserve so that he can make salvation available to mankind. Chrit death reconcile manking with God and brings us peaceEGsadthat salvation is found in Christ, in Christ alone by faith. E.S Watehouse also said that just like Christ bringssalvation to Zacherius a sinner tax collectors so that He promise give salvation to everyone who want to accept it.
christ promised salvation to all, after his sacrifice in the cross the gift of salvation made available to all sinner. I believe that the gift of salvation is made available according to what Christ have done on the cross. Because of that humankind set free under the guilt of sin and also may escap God judgment and already partake with Chrit in His kingdom
Comment on Laurentius Roman's by Gerard vertilus
I would like to comment on your reflection it is true that salvation is receiving by grace. It also true that God never cease to love humanity throughout history of humanity.
I will kindly suggest that to you because you mentioned that it is a process. Don't forget it been a free gift no matter what we do we cannot receive it by work or any other good thing we do.
I totally agree with you on the amazing character of God that reflected in Romans 5. It was man's decision to walk away from God but it was God Himself who initate the reconciliation with man. That is abounding grace to me. I also agree with you on the idea of Totality of Scripture as a foundation of our theology. I believed that is why there are so many differences in salvation views because of ignorance of the Tota Scriptura concept. Thanks for the reflection papaer.
Gerard, I like this idea a lot. This is true the main problem with humanity has always and continues to be self. I would like to broaden your idea further to suggest that what we really fight against and what God is trying to deal with is not the kingdom of Satan but the kingdom of self. Think about it, The enemy is already defeated and he knows it. The purpose of the plan of salvation is to eradicate sin from the cosmos. In this understanding then that I the battle we face and God faces, the battle over the kingdom of self and not the kingdom of Satan.
"In Chapter 6 of Whidden’s book, what was new in a sense to me was the way the author brought across the point that our character can be made perfect through Christ on earth. However, our nature will not be perfect on this side until glorification takes place."
I agree with you, we will never have perfect on this earth..
"In Angel Rodriguez’ article “Comments on the ‘In Adam/In Christ Motifs” I found it shocking to discover that there were actually things that our pioneers didn’t really understand. This was clearly seen in the 1888 Study Committee when they tried to interpret the In Adam/In Christ statements found scattered throughout the Bible."
I guess if we are focus solely on one thing we might miss the other things but I'm glad that 1888 committee saw it.
"Certain views would pop up that mimicked Calvinist views that we were helpless to the point that we needed to depend on God for making our own decisions."
It is good to depend on God, but I believe it would be even better if we depend on God even when we are not helpless or desperate. Rejoice and depend on God even when we feel like we are flying above the cloud.
Tiago wrote that Ellen White had the same struggles as us. He wrote it well, but did not give a direct relationship of how her strugles affected her christianity or her stand on salvation. On the other hand he had a good point on explaining that Jesus though we are sinners as Paul puts it in the book of Romans, we shall be saved through the blood of Jesus. Those will call upon the name of the Lord, shall be saved by the blood of Jesus.
Name: Rosana Joel Comment on Michelle Hill’s Reflection. I actively agree on her conclusion remarks, that it is upon us has students of the word to be able to look in to the depth of these natures and be able to come up with a clear understanding of them and be able to communicate the truth as it is. Her comments are such strong because of the following reasons, first, rarely are student of the bible ready to unearth the truth in the scripture, but rely on their presuppositions, and secondly it is on rare occasion that we find biblical truth from the students of bible.
I like that ellen says that a sinners perfection can't be conscious, but what perfection could one have that could be unconsciously present? I found new meaning also as James mentioned on the fact that we will not be perfect on this side until we have glorification. Perfection is an interesting topic. What does perfection even look like? We see Jesus' life of perfection, but if others could reach perfection, how would that look?
I agree with you when you say that salvation should be easier than what we make it. However, it has more depth to it than just saying that we get sanctified, because then the question is.. how?
I enjoyed your resume of Ellen White's point, I agree that she defines perfectly the issue raised by Wesley.
Response to the assignment written by Jung Yoo Kim: I am agree with you when you say that our good deeds are “filthy rags in His sight”, because we are forgetting many times that we are justified by faith through Jesus blood, and we are trying many times to redeem ourselves doing good works, and more than that we are so proud of those deeds thinking that many sins were washed.
Regarding the subject on depravity I am agree with you. It is impossible to be saved if we can not respond to God call.
I'm not sure that I believe that our good deeds are "filthy rags in His sight" I believe that in our sinfulness, God delights in his peoples obedience and show of love for him. We are not saved by works, but by faith, and yet if we love him as the same as any good relationship, works will follow our faith.
Just wanted to comment Wendy's reflections on Rom 6 and on the readings showings the bid model of salvation. I too have appreciated seeing the big picture of salvation, from Dr Hanna, and it has made understanding the subject a lot easier. Just wanted to appreciate you highlighting that in your readings. I didn't find anything to question on your reflections. Thank you.
I totally agree with you that understanding the elements of salvation are both "simple and complicated" at the same time. I think that if we just trust in the word of God even though we can't explain it, then we'll be alright as it relates to our personal salvation. You said it perfectly when you stated that we must trust and accept, and embracing that concept is helping me to grasp the doctrine of salvation a lot better.
I would like to comment on David’s paper. You know David I never really thought about why that wasn’t in the list. If the sanctuary message has to do with God dwelling in the midst of his people then the Sabbath should also be there. In fact amongst all the things on the list the Sabbath is really one of the main ways that God still seeks to dwell with his people today. Your right, the Sabbath is about freedom from sin through fellowship with God. Excellent point.
I like the way he expresses the idea of how to do God’s will; ‘In my own life I’ve come to the conclusion that while I desire to be free from sin, it’s only my job to come to Christ.’ This to me is the only gateway to do the will of God – submission to his will. Well this is the opposite operating law of nature and it became hard for man to submitting to God and fully relies unto Him. Due the above factor, all we are seeing of today, but disillusioned Christian who have tried to be righteous and they cannot, because their nature is inclined to sin.
In response to James reflection 7 I agree with your comments on the BRI article. I appreciate the addition of George Knights comments. I would like to read that book some time. I agree with you that perfection in maturity and though I agree that maturity is seen in the way that we love.
I agree with you on what you say about Christ's nature. It is a mystery that only heaven will unlock. She also says that we should study; its only sad they way in which some people use it as if we were in a battle. And obviously I cant disagree with you on your analysis of Romans 7, it is an amazing chapter.
I really enjoyed reading your Reflection Paper. You cited relevant outside information and resources to support how you felt about the readings. A friend of mine explained to me recently that we can be perfect like Christ, and that perfection relates to our ability to love our neighbor. He explained it in the same manner in which you did in your reflection paper. I have to believe that love is the essence of perfection and with spiritual maturity I believe it is obtainable.
Response to the assignment written by Wendy Feese:
i agree with you when you say that we will not have a perfect nature without sin in this life. even Ellen White said that will we have this sinful nature until glorification.
Commenting on Joong Ho Kim's paper on perfection. I appreciate address on the meaning of the subject of perfection. It is a widely debated subject and there are so many people who misunderstand it sometimes, I myself included. You showed what perfection does not mean sinlessness, but you did not say what it is, what it all means. I would have liked to know your standing on it. My reflection paper was on the same subject, that's why i got interested in seeing yours. Thank you for your thoughts though. Blessings.
Comments on Morumbwa Dickson on the article “How perfect is perfect” Reflection paper 7 Am impressed with the way you did the summary of the article in your introduction, you said that we cannot claim victory if Christ is not in us. This is the whole issue that Heppenstall is dealing with in this whole article. Surely we cannot claim victory if Christ’s imputed righteousness is not in us. So perfect will be perfect if only we allow the author of victory in our life and that is Christ.
10/15/08 Response to Laurentiu roman, reflection 7
I totally agree with you and with the article you are referencing. The only way the sin problem can be handled is through Christ’s righteousness. It is the power of Christ through the indwelling of His Holy Spirit that makes this possible. As you also mentioned Ellen White does talk about Jesus being the supreme manifestation of God’s love. This is a beautiful for those who are sinner (which is all of us I hope). The incarnation in my opinion is the greatest mystery in the history of the world while at the same time it is the most beautiful.
Shaldon, I totally agree with your comments on Paul's struggle in Romans 7. Indeed, Paul was seeking to "establish the spirituality of the law in the light of the new covenant." Paul is assuring his readers that only those who are spiritually discipline can be able to live by the requirements of God's law. In his epistle to the Corinth church, he said; "i no longer lives but Christ lives in me." Its the indwelling of the Holy Spirits enable a person to live in God's holy law. thanks for the reflection paper
The reading on Betty made me open my eyes and read more on what she had to say on matters of salvation. On one hand, i agree with her that we are saved only by Jesus christ. He died for us on the cross, and paid for our sins, hence if we believe in Him, we shall be saved.
On the other hand, i do not agree with her, on matters of how sin prevented us from direct comunication with God.She dissagrees that though there is sin, we can speak directly to God, siting the example of Moses. But i want to remind her, Moses did not talk with God face to face, only the voice was heard. God is Holy, we are sinners, that puts puts a barrier between us and God. When we will be faithfull untill that end, that is is when we shall be transformed hence comunicate directly to God.
response to Jung Yoo Kim reflection 8 I agree with you that the conclusion that though all of us are affected by sin because Adam brought sin and death into the world but that Christs sacrifice giving life is much greater. Also I liked your point about Ellen White's emphasis on our attitude. We must see the saverity of sin while being thankful for God's forgiveness of our sins.
I agree with you when you affirm that is based in our choice and attitude that we can be made righteous and be transformed by God. About your question in regards to the Old Testament, I think it finds solution in the sacrifice of Christ. People back then were only forgiven and blessed through sacrifices; we enjoy a new era where the sacrifice was already done once and for all. the type already met the antitype.
Response to the assignment written by Jung Yoo Kim:
i agree with you when you say that we need balance in the way we perceive justification by faith. we need balance between faith and works so we not fall in any extreme. we are either too liberal or to legalistic.
also i have found the same joy in reading romans ch.8. the fact that God is working for us gives me peace and comfort that i am not alone, and none of us is alone in this battle.
I agree! Romans 8 makes it clear that we are not alone. No matter how much balance we seek in our spiritual life, at one time or another, we will feel the distance between our sinful nature and our creator. This is why God gift of the Holy Spirit is so powerful. He is with us in our weakness.
Commenting on Romel's paper: I was also blessed by the Article you read on perfection and the same point that you saw caught my attention, which highlighted the point that only through the help of the Holy spirit and living our lives on an upward accent is the closest meaning of perfection. I put it as living up to all the light we've received, and continually growing. That point was important to me. Just one thing to think about, yes Paul was a great man, powerful in his ministry, but i don't wanna think that makes him better than us as far as our struggle with sin is concerned. His greatness in ministry does not exclude him from soar temptation. He had like passions as ours, and so did all the other great men. I even think that our struggle is more grievous, considering the enormity of evil today, our degeneracy etc, but hey, as far as sin is concerned man, we all in this together. Thanks for your paper.
Thanks for the reflection paper Pastor, i agreed with you on the EGW teaching of sins that are forgiven at the stage of Justification, referring to the past sin only, because the view of God had already forgiven my future sins is not biblical, but because of the continue effect of Christ's atoning sacrifice, when we fall, our forgiveness comes when we repent from our wrongs. I appreciate your reflection Pr Paulsen.
10/22/08 In response to- Elder Rosana Joel Reflection 8
In reading your paper I began to think that I left some things out of my own in a sense. I like your discussion on that fact that nothing can separate us. While I’ve heard it countless times before you introduced it in a fresh way. The Christian journey is long and may even experience set backs. Yet you bring out the excellent point that despite this reality God is saying that as long as you stay on the road nothing can separate you. This is true assurance of salvation. I also agree with your closing thought that God has given us the necessary tools to accept His salvation. Through the process of F, P, C, J, G God has provided a way to salvation and desires that none should be lost. Therefore this is hope and confidence that if we remain humble and steadfast nothing can separate us.
First, I'd like to commend you for being very honest about the challenges you are facing with understanding salvation. I'm less confused now than I was before, because we spend a lot of time in class defining a lot of the terminology that is often used as it relates to Salvation. I would have liked to see a quote from the Old testament as an example of how unknown sin was viewed and dealt with during that time so that I could have put your concern in its proper context.
Comment By Sheldon Smith (October 23, 2008) I like the body language concept of salvation that Dr. Hanna sought to brought across the last few classes. It is a unique idea which has biblical underpinnings and I hope the final product of the subject will be available soon so that the nominal Christian can explore salvation from a different perspective. It should make an interesting and fruitful reading!!!
response to jung you kim reflection #9 I really liked the quotes that you pulled out of the BRI document. Also, I agree that there is nothing that we can add to our salvation, that is what happened on the cross and that is what we recieve by faith. Good comments.
I would like to comment of Tiago's paper on Chapter 10 of Whidden's book. It is refreshing to see Ellen White's balance in many trying doctrinal issues of her day. Those were not light issues too, but serious erroneous teachings and waves of fanaticism. Thank your for highlighting that point. I'm so glad we have the light that came from her ministry. Blessings to you as you continue to learn and minister.
I enjoyed reading your paper. You did a really good job of pulling out the main points Blazen made in his article. In addition, I totally agree with you that nothing can save us except Jesus Christ; when we hear His voice we must obey. Finally, I too didn't know much about 1888 until I started reading Whidden's book. I appreciate White's ability to maintain a balance in her writings and with her ability to be educated and in touch with what is taking place in the world during that time.
Last week, we discussed in class about God's predestination plan for his people, God promise to them that if they seek Him with all their heart, they will find Him according to the book of Acts chapter 17:24-34; Paul make it clear in the book of Romans chapter 9:38-39 where Paul talking about the Jewish people, according to Paul the prophet had to follow an order, according to the prophecy he had to go to them first not because they were the superior people on the surface of the earth but because God chose them as His people so then they may be able to represent God among other nation.
The Jewish people think that they could always be right with God as long they can keek the law and get right with God. As Paul mentioned in Ephesian chapter 2: 8, their is nothing we can do to make us look good in the sight of God when it come to salvation. It was God prerogative to sent his son to die for humanity so human race may be redeemed it is not any good deed or priority or seniority but it is what you call underseve grace of God.
Comment By Sheldon Smith (October 25, 2008) I found the two presentations in class on October 22nd quite interesting. The two presenters were both unique in their presentation style and were confident with the material they presented. In addition, I’ve always learnt about God’s Sovereign will vs His permissive will. However I learnt in class from Dr. Hanna that God’s permissive will is a part of His Sovereign will which I think is reasonable.
Comment on Panankosi reflection: I am agree with you on your discussion on the letter of roman yes it is a very dificult letter to understands, I also like your summy, but don't forget that we need the Holy Spirit to guide us even to except the gift of salvation
Salvation by faith shall indeed be debatable for time to come, but at the heat of debate one aspect come out as Casey states: ‘The matter of the Heart.’ This is personal and at times mysterious to the finite being. I like the way he describe the body language here; faith and works, heart and mouth. Paul and James read side by side, shall uncloud what leads to the theological debate – Justification and Sanctification.
You ask a good question as to whether we are saved by faith alone. I guess the question really should be what is the holistic meaning of faith as Paul used it? Even in the text quoted, “for it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved”, we have to ask what he means by heart. In Hebrew culture the heart just wasn’t about emotions or feelings, it was about the center of our being that influences actions. God said that man’s heart is wicked and by saying that He’s implying this as the reason for the actions of humankind. So I think when Paul uses heart here it should be taken to mean a heart that influences actions, hence obedience is also spoken of. Still good reflection.
I like how Baltazart expresses the definition of sin as expressed by White. Indeed if we understand the proper definition of sin the we will not have an excuse to remain in sin again. Thank keep it up.
I agree with Rosana that Salvation is God's business. He stated it and will finish up with those who are willing to be saved.Again our nature should reflect Christ if we have to attain it and i accept these sentiments by Rosana. thanks
Indeed Thank you Big Mike for letting me to know that justification and perfection are closely related. this where there is much confusion thanks for putting it right to me and others probably. Again i lke your comment that salvation is not inherited but we should strive for it to achieve it.
Indeed Thank you Big Mike for letting me to know that justification and perfection are closely related. this where there is much confusion thanks for putting it right to me and others probably. Again i lke your comment that salvation is not inherited but we should strive for it to achieve it.
For Betty Toussaint, i admire your expression the we dwell on minor things and leave the major ones. may we then focus on what shall enable us to receive salvation.
I honestly harbor the same feelings that Betty has to our Church. I am glad the way she has expressed the issue in regard to the ministry in Minneapolis, and the relation to the book of Daniel. What impressed me more is what she mentioned about Ellen G White, - standards of evaluating our Holiness and perfection.
I'd like to comment on Tiago Baltazar's Reflection paper 08. I like the way he stated the main points that stood out for him from each reading and how he felt as a response to those chapters and articles. I also agree with what he said regarding Romans 8. It is also always a comfort to me to read that chapter. It is one of those timeless scriptural passages that never grow old for me and give me renewed hope.
Regarding the reflection paper #9 of Ivan T. Blazen. I think he knows how to do a good summary. He seems to be able to take the main point of a long article and articulate in a short paragraph the main points. Personally I find this hard to do sometimes with such a long article. However, after a good job of summarizing, I wish I could have read a personal reaction and gotten a sense of his personal opinion on what he read.
Reflecting on Jung Yoo Kim's paper #10. I think he seems to have a good understanding of what he reads and is able to learn and appreciate the good points that he reads about. I also like his frankness and humility in declaring that he doesn't understand Chapter 11 of Romans that well, but tries to grasp the meaning of it, at least of what seems to stand out for him from the passage. Good reflection.
response to Jung you kim #10 I agree with your comments on Rodriguez' article. Truly God does make it possible for all to be saved, but we have to decide to believe. I am not sure that your view of what happened in 1888 is quite historical. Ellen White did not refer to her views about Christ to regain power, but reminded people so that they would realize that it was not new, but just a restatement, even the part about not trusting thier works for salvation.
I agree with your opinion on the BRI document, justification is quite an amazing process that God offers us. As far as your comment on Ellen White, it seems that "power wise" she actually lost part of her authority as a prophet, but she kept defending what God revealed her, even if sometimes that wasn't not very popular.
I enjoyed your paper and the example you provided of Paul. Paul is a great example of how one observance of the law did not justify him, because he did not know Jesus. Justification is a gift from Jesus, like you pointed out. Although I agree with you that you don't have to work or do anything for this gift, I do believe that your belief, and it is my opinion that the scriptures stand by the idea that your belief in Jesus should be manifested in works.
Comment on Betty's paper. I appreciated your caution on some of the words we might use in our discussions on righteousness by faith, relationship of law and grace and all these concepts. They can really get confusing and I believe if we try to stick to the simplicity of the gospel of salvation, we can be safe. Focus on Jesus, as you said in different words is the key. Thank you for highlighting that caution. Blessings.
Thanks for the reflections. I totally agree with you on Ellen White’s “healthy balance” in her teachings regarding relationships of some salvation aspects that modern theologians are starting to agree upon. Here we can fully appreciate her writings because they do not contradict with the Bible. Thanks
Am impressed on how you clearly got Paul’s message of righteousness that he is laboring to convey. The message of the people wanting to create their own righteousness whereas Paul is with the message of hope, God has already done that for you in Christ Jesus. Secondly is how you have come up with message of hope to all who are searching for salvation – this business of righteousness shall be accomplished at the second advent of Christ. ‘Glorification’
response to Jung You Kim # 11 I liked your comment about needing Christ's sacrifice to be able to do good. And I also agree that you that Jan Paulson's article was excellent.
Wendy, I agree with you that the section on Israel was a little confusing. Paul did state "all" and I wandered how all the children of Israel would be saved if they've made a conscious choice to reject Jesus as the Son of God. I believe that God really wants them to be saved because the were originally the remnant. In additon, I agree that we have the freedom to choose to be saved or lost by our actions.
Comment Anonymous Betty Toussaint's reflection paper 11
I enjoyed very much your comment on Whidden's chapter, it is such a good insight, you make very accurate statements that I think most of us can identify with, at least I do.
I also agree with you in the way you comment Romans 11. It is amazing that despite all the things that Israel did as well as we do now, God does not give up, He keeps pursuing us.
thanks for the reflection. I really agree with you on the area that despite we can reach in some degree of perfection in our characters but its only the merits of Christ that can save us. It really makes me wonder why some christians have tried too hard be perfection in order to be saved. but the blessing comes from understanding that our efforts is only a respond of obedience but never a mean to obtain salvatio. Thanks and God bless
Your thoughts are good. Yet I am confused as to whether you’re suggesting that Paul and James are saying something different? So when you said that Ellen White agrees with Paul do you also mean that she disagrees with James? Truthfully, their really not saying the same thing yet they are starting from different points with their respective audiences. I believe there was a question about this on our last test.
Am glad on how you have intertwined the message of subject of objective faith with the knowledge obtain from Jesus Christ, in other word our salvation is not ideal when we real don’t know what the will of God is all about. Secondly the issue of subjective salvation, you have well illustrated what is all about; what Christ is doing in us. These two points makes the foundation of salvation firm to humanity.
response to Kolia's reflection 11 I really appreciated how you ended your reflection on the idea the only God is perfect in himself. However, does that mean that we will not be perfect in eternity. I agree with your statement, but I wanted to point out how your words can be twisted if you are not careful.
I agree with you on your comment of Romans 12, I did too appreciate the input of Dr. Hanna, it brought more light to the chapters that anticipate this one.
I also agree with you on what you say about the Whidden's chapter, it had some noteworthy quotes, examples of that bigger model.
Commenting of Wendy's paper: Thank you for highlighting the practical aspect of Romans 12 as the result of the sanctified life, or at least our goal, if i understood you correctly. I totally agree for that's whole purpose of Christ's mission, loving each other and fulfilling the virtues of Christ. I also enjoyed last week's class. You said he cleared up some questions that you had, how is it that you never ask him of those questions in class? Anyway thanks for your insights.
Thanks for the reflection paper. I agree with you on the point of Salvation as inclusive. As we learned from our class discussion that the Apostle is referring to the Spiritual Israel as remnant of God. I think this is unique understanding of Romans 9 that we discussed in class.
Response to Kolia Afamasaga Reflection 12 11/19/08
You’re absolutely right about Paul’s emphasis on total surrender to God. I like the way that you expressed the role that we have to play. We are given gifts to used in God’s service but that these works are not an end of themselves that lead to salvation yet at the same time are important. I also agree with you about the importance of realizing that the process of our salvation continues into the high priestly ministry of Jesus. Truthfully while this may be the official theology of the Adventist Church it is seldom preached on our pulpits. I wonder why is that? For in one sense yes, our salvation was complete at the cross but then in another sense it wasn’t (that was for Dr. Hanna). Personally I’m honestly coming to this realization. It’s something that should be discussed more.
I enjoyed reading you paper. You asked some very good questions which worked to support your position on universal justification. I agree with you that reading Whidden's book has given me a greater appreciation of Adventist Theology and the balance that exists. As Adventist we may not get the application right all the time, but our theories are biblically based and balanced.
I enjoyed reading you paper. You asked some very good questions which worked to support your position on universal justification. I agree with you that reading Whidden's book has given me a greater appreciation of Adventist Theology and the balance that exists. As Adventist we may not get the application right all the time, but our theories are biblically based and balanced.
AS we continue our discussion on salvation, we certainly beging to understand that the lens we use to view the doctrine of salvation need to be bigger and comprehend the doctrine of justification, sanctificatio and perfection. Each model will definitely shade light and provide clues for a better understanding the doctrine of salvation according to Ellen G. White. This week we study that in Roman chapter 11, what the apostle Paul had to say about salvation. This is a very difficult topic to understand, so many people confuse and take the meaning of the text in a different board view. Some say the phrase and so all Israel will be saved means that the majority of Jews in the final generation before Christ's return will return to Christ for salvation. Others say that Paul is using the term Israel to refer to the "Spiritual" nation of Israel, which is comprised of Jews and Gentiles who have received salvation through faith in Christ.
Thus, All Israel or all believers will receive God's promised gift of salvation. Still other say that all Israel means "Israel as a whole" will have role in Christ kingdom. The Jews identify as a people won't be discarded God chose the nation of Israel, and he has never rejected it. He also chose the church, throug Jesus Christ, and he will never reject it eithter. This does not mean , of course, that all Jews or all church members will be saved. It is possible to be a Jewish or to belong to a church without ever responding in faith. But just because some people have rejected Christ does not mean that God stops working with either the Gentiles or Israel. He continues offer salvation freely to all.
I agree with your thoughts Pannah, on justification, sanctification and the law. As you mentioned that these term may confuse a lot of people that's true. Our job as Bible student and Christ representative is to teach and instrut the people, help them to get ready befor it to late for them. This is my suggestion to you. Thank
Comment on Ted's paper. I really appreciate your testimony where you stated that there is an emphasis on the transformation brought on by faith, but sometimes we see a change in people's lives and that change in not because Christ rules the heart but because of self. I like your emphasis on the fact there virtually is no true transformation apart from Christ and we as ministers need to realize that in our ministries. Thanks you. Christ is key!!
You do a good resume of the several documents we analyzed this week. I also enjoyed to see how you look at Romans 13 and how you emphasize the need we have to obey the law in a dimension of relationship with people around us.
response to tiago reflection 13 I really appreciated your thoughts about Romans 13 going with 1 Corinthians 13. I had not thought about that, but I think you are right. I also agree that our church needs to consider and pursue unity, humility and patience
Comment on Tiago's paper. I appreciated your understanding of Romans 14 as a way of Paul inviting us to a God like way of living, putting away judging others but having a sense of community. I think that is important for us to have the mind of God and treat everybody else like how God treats them, not taking advantage or capitalizing on their weaknesses. Thank you.
Comment By Sheldon Smith (December 03, 2008) I particularly like the research project that Tiago has embarked upon in seeking to find out what perfection is. I like his approach from the Biblical and historical perspective. However, I wish there was more time in class for him to have done more in his presentation so we could get more from his findings and see where he was really heading.
Comment on Panakosi’s reflection #14 Thanks for the reflection. I totally agree with you on the manner of how people misinterpreted Rom 14. Indeed they all fast, keep the Sabbath and all is required but the theme is the law of love. Christians must exercise true love to each other and to those who do not trust God.
response to panankosi #14 I appreciated your comments on Ellen White's views that during the time of trouble people will be perfect in that they do not commit rebellion and meditating sins, but they will not get rid of their imperfect sinful natures. I also liked your comments on Romans 14.
I totally agree with you that Whidden's summary of Ellen White's doctrine on perfection was comprehensive. The more I study the life of Jesus, and His response to the people of His time, and the challenges and temptations he faced, and how He loves us even today, I'm amazed and awed by His character. Furthermore, that was a provoking statement you made when you stated that "all behaviors and thoughts should be based on faith only." It makes me think about accountability for my actions.
I enjoyed the way in which you emphasized the law of love and freedom as being displayed in Romans 14, it is an interesting connection. I agree in what you say about the Ellen White and her views on perfection, it is indeed fascinating and very useful for our christian experience.
I really enjoyed reading your reflections on Romans 14. Paul is trying to teach the Christians love and its importance above all else. As Christians, especially Adventists, we have a tendency to condemn those who don't follow the health message or keep the Sabbath. I believe in the Sabbath and the health message. Our job is to teach others what the bible says and disseminate the information and let the Holy Spirit convict their hearts. As you stated, it's God's prerogative to judge. Not mine!
I really enjoyed reading your reflections on Romans 14. Paul is trying to teach the Christians love and its importance above all else. As Christians, especially Adventists, we have a tendency to condemn those who don't follow the health message or keep the Sabbath. I believe in the Sabbath and the health message. Our job is to teach others what the bible says and disseminate the information and let the Holy Spirit convict their hearts. As you stated, it's God's prerogative to judge. Not mine!
As we come at the end of our class discussion we learn more about salvation and model that we need to include to help us extend our model. We've learn also that we have to be patient while we continue to study about salvation. We can be a stumblinblock or someone who are there as a light bearer to help somebody else to grow and study the Bible more. For instance in Roman chapter 14, Paul argument was sor off, a light bearer to his hearer so to speak.
Believers was so judgment about trivial matters even make people embarrass to go shopping. They were judging each other, they were offended people about food that they were eating. Paul couldn't understand how believers of church are destroying the body of God for unecessary thing. Judging each other is not the best way to go according to Paul. If someone think that behavior can be a problem for weak believer it better to behave properly according to the Bible. He suggest to the reman for them not offend anyone by the way of eating or buying food. The food that they have problem with are created by God why they make such a big issue with them. We pretty much have quit the same problem in our church today believe who do not eat meat sometinme offend other and claim that Sister White says that and I know that not true. In order for us to grow as a church so and assure each one with the assurance of Salvation we need focus on the word of God and embrace the guidline of Spirit of prophecy, by doing we will not go wrong.
Gerard Vertilus comment on Kolia's reflection. I agree with your comment on chapter 14 of roman. I certainly believe that the believers was not understand properly what it means to be a Christian. And haw the need to support each other in their growing process. I have a little concern though about what you said. You underscore that they had not been taught. I don't think it was only that because they were taught by Paul. It has to do with love and understanding also.
Our discussion getting sweeter about our topic which is salvation. As we continue to learn more about salvation we discover that the other model like obedient to the word of God are importand to help us understand salvation in a bigger model as we agree in class. In 1888 one of the most important statement Elder Waggoner and Elder John presented to the people was Obedient to all commandment of God. Ellen G. White even says that Christ merit make our obedient acceptable. In roman 13, Paul teaches that for hearers to be obedient and respecful. According to him they must respect and abey authorities. Another word give tribute to ceasar, and the other hand honor God. Ellen White also comment on that, she said that obedient has relationship with justification which give us access to salvation. As we continue study on the doctrine of salvation we need to encourage our people to embrace that attribute which we include in our 10 model.
Comment on Young yoo, I am agreing with you comment on roman 13. I understand that from Chapter 7 through 14, Paul had some difficult argument with the roman church it was not easy argument and I see where you come from. The only thing though I will suggest for your church to be patient study the bible more
Chapter in our book teach us about the natute of Christ and salvation. This could be one of the most difficult topic of all time. A lot of people don't agree with Ellen White on that topic and eve misquote her. Based on the author argument some people interpret Ellen G White as emphasizing the similarities, seeing Christ as sinful in nature though not in actioons. She never reprimanded or directly corrected any of these person for their arian views,Ellen white believe in the nature of Christ. Her doctrine of Christ is well ballanced. Paul views in Roman 8 corralate with the view of Ellen G. White.
Paul views urge individuls to live in the spirit and abandoned the act of the flesh, because who so ever live according to the flesh cannot please God. The Spirt raised Christ from the dead and God promise to give us the same Spirit that was raised Jesus from the dead. Our salvation is assure when the spirit live in us but if our deed caused the Spirit to run away from us dispite of what we do if gonna be a big challenge for us understand the nature of Christ and the plan of salvation.
Gerard Vertilus Comment on Laurentiu reflection, I agree with about what you said on nature of Christ and also the statement you made concerning our decision to be righteous. I think you got it all right.
Thanks for the reflection, i totally agree with you on BRI article on Romans 3: 21-24, you have rightly put it that justification is not limited to human limitation but relying on God's merits through Jesus' Christ.
The Bible sure has many mysteries we human can not grasp. You mentioned the quote from Rodriguez "in manner that the sin of humanity is not the sin of Adam, but because he was the one who represented humanity, what he did affected humanity." when we go to heaven we can fully understand the mysteries of sin and salvation.
You quoted Romans 7: 21, “I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.” The insight you gained from this verse grabed my attention. You said; "It sounds like Paul wants to follow God’s law but his original character prevents him from it." How often we try to do things right but we fail to do so or keep the goodness going because of our old character. This calls for our complete dependence on the Lord.
You mention that the book of Romans show how serious sin is and I agree with you. The most deadliest disease on this earth did not have effect on the entire creation but sin, effected everything God created on this earth. Studying the book of Romans is crucial for our daily walk with Christ.
“In Romans 12 apostle Paul appeals to our will. God calls us to make a choice about the way that we live for Him, and that we are able to offer ourselves to God as He works His mercy in us.” It is good to know that God is calling us and not commanding us and also I’m glad that God wants to use us who are so feeble.
I’ve often heard that perfection was impossible. However, Ellen White taught that “perfection of intelligence and a purity of character but a little lower than the perfection and purity of angels” is possible. We need to understand that perfection of character has many facets. By beholding Jesus daily, He will reveal to us our character flaws and the Holy Spirit will provide us with the strength to overcome these infirmities.
We can never be perfect like Jesus but like you mentioned by beholding Jesus daily, He will truly reveal our faults so that we can be one step closer to being perfect.
“I can still have hope because I have the Bible and the Holy Spirit.” The Bible and Paul’s message is to give people hope for what is to come in the near future. If we do not have anything to hope for our lives will be meaningless. I’m glad that you found hope, and I hope that the Lord will use you to help others to find hope in their lives.
“A justified life can have victory over sin is through the merit of Christ. Its interesting to know from her pen that “Our sanctification is God’s object in all His dealing with us. He has chosen us from eternity that we may be holy.” I agree with you that without the merit of Christ we can accomplish nothing. “Our sanctification is God’s object in all His dealing with us..” this is very comforting for me and what is more comforting is that He has chosen me
“the righteousness of faith is received by believing in Jesus, and we don’t have to “work” to get Jesus. It is not as if we have to ascend into heaven or descend into the abyss to gain Jesus. We believe and receive. Manuel RodrÃguez is supporting the idea that justification is a free gift which we have received through Jesus Christ death and this gift is supported only by those who accept it.”
The key word here seems is to “accept’ and I agree with you, but often times sin makes it so hard for people to “accept” Tomas one of Jesus’ disciples could not believe that the person who was standing in front of him was Jesus until he saw the scars.
Freedom is what we hope for as we live our lives. We want to be free from many things such as jobs, sickness, school, and ultimately SIN… “Paul talks about grafting branches in and cutting branches off is a very good text to show that salvation can be lost after you have got it, but it can also be regained after you have lost it. It is always our choice to react to what God had done and to change our mind and act differently toward God. God gives us that freedom.” I like this comment you made. I’m so glad that God gave us freedom to choose. Giving us freedom means that He respects our decisions.
147 comments:
I would like to comment on the assinment posted by Wayne Long. I really appreciated your statement about Ellen White's desire to be sanctified. If only we could all capture her zeal for the Lord I believe that we would accomplish much as Christians.
Also, your statement about Paul saying that all people could know God from nature was intersting to me. I have found myself reevaluating my own thoughts on this part of Romans. My question to you and myself and all of the class is this, is Paul talking about historically people exchanged the things of God, or currently? I would love further comment on this.
Comment on the assignment posted by Wendy Feese:
reading your analysis I enjoyed how you emphasized the need for us to experiment in order to be able to experience salvation. I also enjoyed the fact that you pointed out that the influence of sin plays a huge role in our lives - more than we could ever imagine or comprehend. That shows us just how much we need Christ for even the smallest of things.
I agree with you on your interpretation of Romans 1:16 - I believe that it directly relates to Christ's fulfilled mission - as was referenced a few verses earlier.
Response to Wayne Long's comment at 9/02/2008 12:36 AM:
Wayne, I want to thank you for highlighting the intensity of Ellen White's desire to experience God's salvation. This jumped out to me as well as an example that is worthy to follow.
I'd like to expand upon your thoughts on "God gave them up". It seems to me that when Paul says God gave them up it means God removed some restraining grace that was holding back to power of evil in their lives. The Greek verb there is Paradidomi which means to hand over to the power of another. So because of their choice to ignore God's revelation, God put them under the power of their sinful tendencies and the sinful behaviors resulted.
The point I get from this is that our choice is not so much what we will choose to do or not do, but what spiritual power we will accept into our lives to influence our choices.
Response to the assignment written by Balthazar:
I liked the idea where you mentioned that we are shaped by what we have inherited from Adam, the sin and because we were borne in sin we can not comprehend Jesus sacrifice and what He has done for us. Thing which make the whole plan of redemption the greatest work, plan which will understand entirely in eternity with God.
I would like to say more about the struggle which Ellen White had about the understanding of sanctification and perfection. Salvation is simple and complicate in the same time; it is a gift but a gift which must be accepted. The same struggle we have today also because it is a process
Kurtley Knight
09/03/08
I would like to comment Laurentiu Roman’s comments. I think you really summed in up well. God didn’t stop loving us after sin. His promise to send the redeemer was an act of compassion and grace. Further then that, His act of creation itself is an act of grace. God has always loved humanity and there has never been a time in history or will there be where this is not true. Your thoughts I believed echoed this premise and I appreciate them.
I also like something else you said in connection with the online article and class discussion. You stated that salvation can not be a condition but rather a process. Even though we can experience the benefits of it now, it is still a process that will never end until we reach glory.
Hi Betty, I must commend you for your bold step in seeking to advance your studies in the Mdiv. Program based on your background as you have disclosed in the blog. I must say that being at the seminary is a learning experience for both teachers and students alike. Some of us have to learn and unlearn some of the things we were taught and things we thought we really understood and really had a handle on.
I want to respond to a question that seems to be puzzling you as I read your comments. You said you don’t understand how Adam accepted the gift of salvation and when that happened. Well, as far as the biblical record is concerned, salvation is a gift that all human beings receive through faith (Eph. 2:8). Humanity’s salvation is and has always been guaranteed in not what we can do but what God has done for mankind through Christ. Prior to Adam’s sin, a contingency plan was in place just in case man sinned. When Adam sinned, the contingency plan was revealed to Adam (Rev. 13:8; Gen. 3:15; John 3:16).
Adam through faith prior to Christ’s advent, sacrificed animals in anticipation of Christ’s offering of Himself at Calvary. In essence, the animals that Adam sacrificed was a faith expression in Christ’s blood which was to be shed for mankind because without the shedding of blood there is no remission for sins (Heb. 9:22). Consequently, Adam and his descendants were accounted righteous based on their expression of faith in the blood of Christ typified by the animals which they sacrificed.
It is important to note also that just like Adam, we have to look to the cross in faith for salvation. Adam looked forward in faith while he offered animal sacrifices, while we look backward to the cross as we exercise faith in Christ’s sacrifice for us.
I could go on Betty but I hope I answered your question. (Sheldon)
Commenting on Mr Jung Yoo Kim's reflection paper.
I appreciated your reaction on the concept of faith to faith as stated by Apostle Paul and tied it together with Ellen G White's acknowledgment of Sanctification as a life time walk with God. As we do not believed in the concept of "Ones saved always save." There must be a continuation walk of a sinner save by grace with the Holy Spirit that does the sanctifying work in the sinner's life. But my concern is in the conclusion where "man is not saved by the deeds of the law." I'm sure we concluded in class that we should not separated the two for the Apostle also appealed that the doers of the law but not the hearers that justified. There is a need to look at the wider spectrum of the Apostle's writing to help us to see the Apostle is dealing with particular problem within the churches in each of his epistles.
Its just to clarify the conclusion of our class; Thanks for the reflection paper, Jung
Name: Elder Rosana Joel
Comment on Morumbwa’s “Universality of Salvation”
Greatly I do I agree with the wonderful insight in his exposition regarding the matter at floor and thus is the Universal Salvation. I am impressed of his idea about observation that some Christians have on the idea of them been saved and hence they don’t need anything to do. This is the assumption that has led many to not embrace the whole facet of salvation and only took the part of grace and forget the human responsibility, thus; Choice.
Hence the point of sanctification as seen by many as been a legalistic issue is to be discarded and should be well know that it is a process that shall lead one to the place of glorification. Ellen White did have that confusion too, and Morumbwa clearly stated that. In Jesus we are saved from our past, present and future sins and in Christ we have to abide and live according to the will of God and this is choice made by an individual.
Name: Elder Rosana Joel
Comment on Morumbwa’s “Universality of Salvation”
Greatly I do I agree with the wonderful insight in his exposition regarding the matter at floor and thus is the Universal Salvation. I am impressed of his idea about observation that some Christians have on the idea of them been saved and hence they don’t need anything to do. This is the assumption that has led many to not embrace the whole facet of salvation and only took the part of grace and forget the human responsibility, thus; Choice.
Hence the point of sanctification as seen by many as been a legalistic issue is to be discarded and should be well know that it is a process that shall lead one to the place of glorification. Ellen White did have that confusion too, and Morumbwa clearly stated that. In Jesus we are saved from our past, present and future sins and in Christ we have to abide and live according to the will of God and this is choice made by an individual.
Comments on David Hamstra's week two reflection
I appreciated your analysis of the last class discussion and look forward to delving into those phrases more deeply as well.
I also liked your wording on Romans as a leveling of the playing field. I think that is exactly what Paul was doing and you did an excellent job of articulating that.
Comments on Jung Yoo Kim's Paper Reflection 02.
I agree with you in what you say about the fact that we make things more complicated than they need to be;
I also agree with you when you say that we as Adventists need to go through a introspective analysis, it is in some areas of our religious culture, a imperative.
Response to Wayne Long- and Wendy Feese's documents
I agree that Whidden's proposal of Sister White's humanity, and her own personal struggles with it is illuminating. It does us well to know that like many of the faith Giants- had their struggles when they encountered Christ- and continued to do so-
Comments on Nathan Kennedy's paper
I like your examples with the baby.
My pastor once used baby as an illustration, similiar to your example.
Many times we tend to be very selfish, and try to do thing in our own benefit. We pray to God, asking Him to bless us more than to pray to bless others.
Comment on Tiago Baltazar's post at 9/09/2008 8:36 PM
I liked your analysis of Ellen White's position on justification as "faith in response".
I also think you're correct that the goal of Romans 2 is to induce soul searching in believers. Could this be taken to mean that absolute assurance of salvation was not Paul's goal in writing Romans?
Response to the assignment written by Jung Yoo Kim
I agree with you . more you study about this subject, more confuse you become. And what we understand now is only a part from the whole plan of salvation. The rest it will be discovered to us in heaven.
I like the idea that “Adam brought one sin but Christ brought sufficient justification for multitude of sins.” God relay wants to save us.
I agree with Wendy that we we need to understand clearly the issue of salvation. we should not pretend to know more but we should seek for carity as we procced with the class.
Response to the article by Morumbwa Dickson
Thanks bro for the well reflected paper on our inability to save ourselves from the penalty of sin. I totally agree with you on the idea of universal justification because it comes back to the respond of the individual for the “gift” of grace is superior than the “trespass” as the Apostle Paul [Rom 5: 15- 17] but God never forced us to accept His gift for He still respect our freedom of choice. However, I’m a bit concern with the expression “the sins of Adam were transmitted to all”; do you mean the result of Adam’s sin affected the human race, because if the sin was transmitted then we can simply say that Adam’s sin becomes our sin; PLEASE I JUST WANTED TO UNDERSTAND, may be you can help me when we meet in class
God bless…
comment on Tiago Baltazar's paper
first point I agree is that he said; justification by faith is a constant presence in all Scripture." and it true, when Jesus was walking around healing people He often said; by faith you are healed.
second point i agree is that God is working in our hearts whether we acknowledge Him or not, because when I was not acknowledging God, He was working in my heart.
My response to Tiago's Paper
I agree that Whidden did excellent research on the life of EGW and her struggles with conversion.
I also must agree that Romans 2 makes it very clear that salvation is indeed a free gift.
In reaction to James' third reflection, I appreciated your statements about temporary vs. eternal nature of salvation and that God through Jesus gives us eternal salvation, something we humans can't do. I also agree with your statement about God's foreknowledge, though I think it may be a somewhat simplistic way of looking at it. I have thought of it the same way for a long time, but I do not think that explination totally answers the difficulty of the philosophical dicotomy of freedom and foreknowledge. I will look forward to continuing to look at the Biblical perspective on that subject.
Comments on James Paper Reflection 03.
I appreciate your practical approach to both concepts of foreknowledge and predestination. I will agree with Wendy that they can be more explored, but it seems a practical clean explanation. I also enjoyed how you analyzed the concept of salvation. It seems that we sometimes get limited by our own temporal concept of salvation.
I think you're right, Baltazart. I like the way that Ellen White is shown, not as some superhuman, but a person with struggles like any of us. What amazes me most, though, is the determined attitude to know Jesus at all costs. It's been blowing me away.
Kurtley Knight
09/16/08
3rd Comment
Baltazart I’m in agreement with you on several points. Firstly, isn’t Whidden doing a great job of showing us the continued struggle and development of Ellen White over the span of her life. Very enjoyable and reminds us to place her in the context of that time. It’s good to know that the God’s messenger also grows and struggles like the rest of us.
In addition, the love of God as expressed in Rom 3 is indeed incredible. Paul indeed shows that they work together, going so far as to say that one cannot through out the law. For without the law there would be no view of our need for a savior. This is actually the main point of the law. (Rom 3:20).
Response to the assignment written by Jung Yoo Kim:
I agree with you when you say that “Christ saved the world. This phrase is true and untrue at the same time.” It is more comfortable to believe ans say this and people from our days like this idea, because they must not do anything to be saved, everything was done. They do not understand that if you want to be saved you must believe and accept Jesus Christ. This is, as you said, a gift, now it is up to you if you want to accept or not the gift.
Wanted to comment on Wayne's reflection on Ellen White's stance on Legal Justification. I read the same article and got the same understanding. I appreciated your thoughts on that, thank you. In your comment you made a strong emphasis on grace, which is the best thing God could have done for lost mankind. You did not mention much on the flip side of the coin, man's response to that grace, a responsible life, based on righteousness of God. I would have wanted to see that point come across as well. Thank you for your insights. Blessings
Comment on James
Reflection Paper #3
James, I really liked the analogy you used in your reflection paper. I agree with you that the word "save" when we use if means a temporary action, and that "save" based on your understanding of salvation is an "eternal" concept. Its important for us to understand this terminology that we frequently and generally use so that when we speak to others about salvation we make it clear as to what that entails. Rodriguez did not make that clarification for me, but I'll understand it better by and by.
Comment on Wendy Feese's post at 9/14/2008 9:35 PM
I thought Wendy made two great points. (1) "...the question that we have trouble answering is a philosophical question of how God can know and yet we are still free, but God never promised to answer all of our philosophical questions." This is and excellent observation, but it also must not be taken as an excuse to wrestle with the questions, within the bounds of Scripture, to see if God has something to teach us.
(2)"Even those who know the law can’t keep it to their salvation. That is not the law’s purpose. But we are saved through Christ." The purpose of the law, as Paul explains it in this chapter, is to show us our sin.
Commenting on Panankosi's relection paper 3
Thanks for the reflection paper, and its good to know that you are able to see the support of Ellen White to the concept of justification as indicated by the Apostle Paul in Roman 3, and also how Rodriguez supported Ellen White. I think its good how she was able to distinct the truth from other fanatical ideas of justification. So thanks for that and i totally agree with you on that. I think you summed up the class discussion pretty well, it was and is and always will be the divine will for God for us to be saved but it will be our own fault if we can't make it to eternal life. Thank alot
Comment on Reflection#2 (Sheldon Smith)
I am relieved to know that I am not the only one who is hearing about this “universal legal justification” for the first time. I sensed this after reading a few of the reflections posted. It just goes to show how important it is for us to be aware of the different doctrines out there and to ensure that we are fully “cladded” in the armor of God.
Also, I would like to commed Dr. Hanna for this meaningful exercise. It is really exposing us to the different views of justification and salvation that have been purported by Christians.
I am really touched by the idea expressed by Roman concerning our salvation and what God is doing. He clearly express the fact that God is doing all He can to reconcile us and He does this by not tampering on our freedom. This is the most sensitive part of salvation; “That God is not ready to force into something we don’t want.” And Roman in his reflection has really tried to examine that very well.
I appreciated your reflection paper Kolia on Ellen White's position on Universal Justification. You also emphasized the fact that God is a free to do what wants to do but when it comes to salvation, He respects our decision and will not force us into heaven. That resonated with me well because I reflected on the same. I also found the class to be profound. But the bottomline is that we should be thankful that has a loving character and will not be shaped by what we do. I just marvel at His balance, He cares for us so much but also He will let us choose our own destiny. Thanks for your contribution to the class.
I would like to respond to Panankosi's fourth reflection. I agree that it is because of limiting our understanding of scripture to one verse and not looking at the totality of what it says that we often have problems. However, that is not always the only reason for problems. Sometimes problems come because of the difficulty in understanding how different scriptures correspond. We must be weary of both possible problems.
I'd like to comment on Wendy's reflection paper #4. I agree with you that we cannot earn anything by doing as Paul pointed out. God is fair, and I love that he judges our hearts. In addition, I do feel that Whidden only scratched the surface, and that we have more to look forward to.
Comments on David Hamstra Paper Reflection 04.
I appreciated your analysis of the fourth chapter of Romans, I agree with what you say and enjoyed how you expressed it.
I will also agree with you on what you write about Rodriguez article, it is very revealing but surely could share some sources.
Comment on Jung Yoo Kim's Reflection Paper #4:
I appreciated your highlighting the connection between freedom and grace in your reflection on the lecture and reading of Whidden.
I also agree with you that the final verses of Romans 4 are a wonderful climax to the chapter.
Comment # Sheldon Smith’ reflection
I agree on the point that many people misunderstand or misquote her writings and use it out of context. Many believe her to be perfect and some people even believe the Bible is perfect. I guess many misunderstand the views on thought inspiration and verbal inspiration.
When he quoted the verse in Matthew 5:48; I don’t think the author mention the word perfect as being “perfect” but rather as being perfect as “love”
Well This is my first comment. For some reason I thought the commenting were in the same blog as the assignments. (I'm a slow learner) Anyway, Many people do misunderstand EGW, they do this because lets be real, if you want to find problems within people, we can usually find them. Not because they may be true, but because people see or understand what they want to see or understand. James is right on when he says that "perfect" is the "love" that christ is challenging us to be. 43-47 speaks of this perfect love.
Kurtley Knight
9/23/08
Reaction to James #4
Of course I agree with you on several points of your reflection like, Christ coming to save all those who freely choose him. I also agree with you on your example of the snake being held up for all to be saved if they would only look at it as we are to look at Christ. I guess though as I was reading your quote and mention of Ellen White I thought, if she knew that we could not be perfect why was perfection such a painstaking topic for her as illustrated in our reading this week? This is not to say that I believe that there is no reason to strive for all that God has instructed. I’m just questioning if where the balance comes and if Ellen White had that understanding (which I’m honestly assuming she did). But its still a question.
Response to the assignment written by Kurtley Knight:
i have enjoyed your comments and i am agree with you about the descriptions which Whidden is doing about Ellen White, as being a human person as you and me with mistakes and imperfections.
Response to assignment written by Roman Laurentiu.
I precisely agree with him on the idea that salvation is to all regardless of your ethnic background. Paul makes clear in the book of Romans 4, that salvation is to all, thus to the uncircumcised and the circumcised and the basis for this is by believing.
Comment of Wendy's Reflection Paper #5
I agree with you that all of the readings this week were related and consistent with their thoughts and ideas. In addition, I too felt really good after reading Romans 5. There is this sense of peace and hope for us. However, we have this free will to accept or reject, and most of the writers from this week's reading agree that we have the propensity to reject the will of God. That fact is a little unsettling to me.
recation to kolia afamasaga reflection #5
I appreciated your comment on Romans 5:8, that it is truly amazing that God would be willing to save us while we were yet sinners. That is truly amazing.
I also agree with your later statement that it is good to remember that we can no save ourselves by works as Ellen White pointed out.
Comments on Betty Toussaint Paper Reflection 05.
I agree with you in what you say about the hope given by Romans 5. Its true that Ellen White tone seems at times discouraging, in some sense, but Paul sets a level of joy in Christ's victory that its hard to resemble.
I also agree with you in regards to what you say about reading the Scripture. It makes such a difference when we make an effort to see Christ in it. And like you said we can see the results in the same biblical story.
Comment on Tiago Baltazar's comment at 9/30/2008 9:42 PM:
I think you are onto something when you appreciate that "God was put in the center of all the initiatives and goes far beyond the value of any of human merit." For me merit is the crux of issues with legalism, and a proper understanding of human depravity and prevenient grace can help lay those issues to rest.
I also agree with you that in many ways chapter 5 is key to Romans, but Paul also lays out practical implications of the early, theological chapters in the second part of Romans. I like to connect Paul's peacemaking exhortations in Romans 12 to Romans 5 and the peacemaking God did with us.
To understand that yes we "sinners" were saved while still acting in sin is truly amazing. Its amazing because I struggle to accept those who do me wrong, and yet Christ's model of unconditional love sets the standard of by which we aught to live. I agree with Tiago that EGW does somewhat sound a bit discouraging in her writings, but like us, she too is human.
Gerard Vertilus
10/01/08
continues reflections
Our class discussion and the lecture we have to read this week and some outside reading maximize my territory on our subject, which is salvation. In our class we continue discussing about salvation, other topic that we must study to understand salvation better. In the book of Romans especially,chapter 5, Paul declare that we were separated from God,we were His enemies but because of God's grace he sent his son to die for us on the cross, and experiencedcruciating pain he did not deserve so that he can make salvation available to mankind. Chrit death reconcile manking with God and brings us peaceEGsadthat salvation is found in Christ, in Christ alone by faith. E.S Watehouse also said that just like Christ bringssalvation to Zacherius a sinner tax collectors so that He promise give salvation to everyone who want to accept it.
christ promised salvation to all, after his sacrifice in the cross the gift of salvation made available to all sinner. I believe that the gift of salvation is made available according to what Christ have done on the cross. Because of that humankind set free under the guilt of sin and also may escap God judgment and already partake with Chrit in His kingdom
Comment on Laurentius Roman's by Gerard vertilus
I would like to comment on your reflection it is true that salvation is receiving by grace. It also true that God never cease to love humanity throughout history of humanity.
I will kindly suggest that to you because you mentioned that it is a process. Don't forget it been a free gift no matter what we do we cannot receive it by work or any other good thing we do.
Commenting on Casey reflection #5
I totally agree with you on the amazing character of God that reflected in Romans 5. It was man's decision to walk away from God but it was God Himself who initate the reconciliation with man. That is abounding grace to me. I also agree with you on the idea of Totality of Scripture as a foundation of our theology. I believed that is why there are so many differences in salvation views because of ignorance of the Tota Scriptura concept. Thanks for the reflection papaer.
Responding to Gerard 09/30 comment:
Gerard, I like this idea a lot. This is true the main problem with humanity has always and continues to be self. I would like to broaden your idea further to suggest that what we really fight against and what God is trying to deal with is not the kingdom of Satan but the kingdom of self. Think about it, The enemy is already defeated and he knows it. The purpose of the plan of salvation is to eradicate sin from the cosmos. In this understanding then that I the battle we face and God faces, the battle over the kingdom of self and not the kingdom of Satan.
Comment#4 on Romel C
"In Chapter 6 of Whidden’s book, what was new in a sense to me was the way the author brought across the point that our character can be made perfect through Christ on earth. However, our nature will not be perfect on this side until glorification takes place."
I agree with you, we will never have perfect on this earth..
Comment #5 on..
S. Michael Olaye
"In Angel Rodriguez’ article “Comments on the ‘In Adam/In Christ Motifs” I found it shocking to discover that there were actually things that our pioneers didn’t really understand. This was clearly seen in the 1888 Study Committee when they tried to interpret the In Adam/In Christ statements found scattered throughout the Bible."
I guess if we are focus solely on one thing we might miss the other things but I'm glad that 1888 committee saw it.
"Certain views would pop up that mimicked Calvinist views that we were helpless to the point that we needed to depend on God for making our own decisions."
It is good to depend on God, but I believe it would be even better if we depend on God even when we are not helpless or desperate. Rejoice and depend on God even when we feel like we are flying above the cloud.
Tiago wrote that Ellen White had the same struggles as us. He wrote it well, but did not give a direct relationship of how her strugles affected her christianity or her stand on salvation.
On the other hand he had a good point on explaining that Jesus though we are sinners as Paul puts it in the book of Romans, we shall be saved through the blood of Jesus. Those will call upon the name of the Lord, shall be saved by the blood of Jesus.
Name: Rosana Joel
Comment on Michelle Hill’s Reflection.
I actively agree on her conclusion remarks, that it is upon us has students of the word to be able to look in to the depth of these natures and be able to come up with a clear understanding of them and be able to communicate the truth as it is. Her comments are such strong because of the following reasons, first, rarely are student of the bible ready to unearth the truth in the scripture, but rely on their presuppositions, and secondly it is on rare occasion that we find biblical truth from the students of bible.
I like that ellen says that a sinners perfection can't be conscious, but what perfection could one have that could be unconsciously present?
I found new meaning also as James mentioned on the fact that we will not be perfect on this side until we have glorification. Perfection is an interesting topic. What does perfection even look like? We see Jesus' life of perfection, but if others could reach perfection, how would that look?
Comments on Jung Yoo Kim Paper Reflection 06.
I agree with you when you say that salvation should be easier than what we make it. However, it has more depth to it than just saying that we get sanctified, because then the question is.. how?
I enjoyed your resume of Ellen White's point, I agree that she defines perfectly the issue raised by Wesley.
Response to the assignment written by Jung Yoo Kim:
I am agree with you when you say that our good deeds are “filthy rags in His sight”, because we are forgetting many times that we are justified by faith through Jesus blood, and we are trying many times to redeem ourselves doing good works, and more than that we are so proud of those deeds thinking that many sins were washed.
Regarding the subject on depravity I am agree with you. It is impossible to be saved if we can not respond to God call.
I'm not sure that I believe that our good deeds are "filthy rags in His sight" I believe that in our sinfulness, God delights in his peoples obedience and show of love for him. We are not saved by works, but by faith, and yet if we love him as the same as any good relationship, works will follow our faith.
Response to Wendy Fesse's comment on 10/05/2008 5:46 PM:
I agree with your position regarding the necessity of baptism for salvation.
I also agree that the BRI document was a "big picture" paper that provides a helpful framework.
Just wanted to comment Wendy's reflections on Rom 6 and on the readings showings the bid model of salvation. I too have appreciated seeing the big picture of salvation, from Dr Hanna, and it has made understanding the subject a lot easier. Just wanted to appreciate you highlighting that in your readings. I didn't find anything to question on your reflections. Thank you.
Comment on Jung Yoo Kim's Reflection Paper 6
I totally agree with you that understanding the elements of salvation are both "simple and complicated" at the same time. I think that if we just trust in the word of God even though we can't explain it, then we'll be alright as it relates to our personal salvation. You said it perfectly when you stated that we must trust and accept, and embracing that concept is helping me to grasp the doctrine of salvation a lot better.
Response...10/08/08
I would like to comment on David’s paper. You know David I never really thought about why that wasn’t in the list. If the sanctuary message has to do with God dwelling in the midst of his people then the Sabbath should also be there. In fact amongst all the things on the list the Sabbath is really one of the main ways that God still seeks to dwell with his people today. Your right, the Sabbath is about freedom from sin through fellowship with God. Excellent point.
Comment on kurtley Knight Paper
I like the way he expresses the idea of how to do God’s will; ‘In my own life I’ve come to the conclusion that while I desire to be free from sin, it’s only my job to come to Christ.’ This to me is the only gateway to do the will of God – submission to his will. Well this is the opposite operating law of nature and it became hard for man to submitting to God and fully relies unto Him. Due the above factor, all we are seeing of today, but disillusioned Christian who have tried to be righteous and they cannot, because their nature is inclined to sin.
In response to James reflection 7
I agree with your comments on the BRI article. I appreciate the addition of George Knights comments. I would like to read that book some time. I agree with you that perfection in maturity and though I agree that maturity is seen in the way that we love.
Comment on Wendy Feese's reflection paper 07
I agree with you on what you say about Christ's nature. It is a mystery that only heaven will unlock. She also says that we should study; its only sad they way in which some people use it as if we were in a battle.
And obviously I cant disagree with you on your analysis of Romans 7, it is an amazing chapter.
Comment on James Reflection Paper #7
I really enjoyed reading your Reflection Paper. You cited relevant outside information and resources to support how you felt about the readings. A friend of mine explained to me recently that we can be perfect like Christ, and that perfection relates to our ability to love our neighbor. He explained it in the same manner in which you did in your reflection paper. I have to believe that love is the essence of perfection and with spiritual maturity I believe it is obtainable.
Response to the assignment written by Wendy Feese:
i agree with you when you say that we will not have a perfect nature without sin in this life. even Ellen White said that will we have this sinful nature until glorification.
Response to Betty Tousaint's comment on 10/13/2008 9:10 AM:
I agree with your point regarding Whidden's identification of how Christ's temptations and ours are similar. It's a helpful way of looking at it.
I also agree Romans 7 contains a powerful articulation of our struggle with sin.
Commenting on Joong Ho Kim's paper on perfection. I appreciate address on the meaning of the subject of perfection. It is a widely debated subject and there are so many people who misunderstand it sometimes, I myself included. You showed what perfection does not mean sinlessness, but you did not say what it is, what it all means. I would have liked to know your standing on it. My reflection paper was on the same subject, that's why i got interested in seeing yours. Thank you for your thoughts though. Blessings.
Comments on Morumbwa Dickson on the article “How perfect is perfect”
Reflection paper 7
Am impressed with the way you did the summary of the article in your introduction, you said that we cannot claim victory if Christ is not in us. This is the whole issue that Heppenstall is dealing with in this whole article. Surely we cannot claim victory if Christ’s imputed righteousness is not in us. So perfect will be perfect if only we allow the author of victory in our life and that is Christ.
10/15/08
Response to Laurentiu roman, reflection 7
I totally agree with you and with the article you are referencing. The only way the sin problem can be handled is through Christ’s righteousness. It is the power of Christ through the indwelling of His Holy Spirit that makes this possible. As you also mentioned Ellen White does talk about Jesus being the supreme manifestation of God’s love. This is a beautiful for those who are sinner (which is all of us I hope). The incarnation in my opinion is the greatest mystery in the history of the world while at the same time it is the most beautiful.
Commenting on Sheldon Smith's reflection paper 7
Shaldon, I totally agree with your comments on Paul's struggle in Romans 7. Indeed, Paul was seeking to "establish the spirituality of the law in the light of the new covenant." Paul is assuring his readers that only those who are spiritually discipline can be able to live by the requirements of God's law. In his epistle to the Corinth church, he said; "i no longer lives but Christ lives in me." Its the indwelling of the Holy Spirits enable a person to live in God's holy law. thanks for the reflection paper
The reading on Betty made me open my eyes and read more on what she had to say on matters of salvation.
On one hand, i agree with her that we are saved only by Jesus christ. He died for us on the cross, and paid for our sins, hence if we believe in Him, we shall be saved.
On the other hand, i do not agree with her, on matters of how sin prevented us from direct comunication with God.She dissagrees that though there is sin, we can speak directly to God, siting the example of Moses. But i want to remind her, Moses did not talk with God face to face, only the voice was heard. God is Holy, we are sinners, that puts puts a barrier between us and God. When we will be faithfull untill that end, that is is when we shall be transformed hence comunicate directly to God.
response to Jung Yoo Kim reflection 8
I agree with you that the conclusion that though all of us are affected by sin because Adam brought sin and death into the world but that Christs sacrifice giving life is much greater. Also I liked your point about Ellen White's emphasis on our attitude. We must see the saverity of sin while being thankful for God's forgiveness of our sins.
Comment on Jame's reflection paper 08
I agree with you when you affirm that is based in our choice and attitude that we can be made righteous and be transformed by God.
About your question in regards to the Old Testament, I think it finds solution in the sacrifice of Christ. People back then were only forgiven and blessed through sacrifices; we enjoy a new era where the sacrifice was already done once and for all. the type already met the antitype.
Response to the assignment written by Jung Yoo Kim:
i agree with you when you say that we need balance in the way we perceive justification by faith. we need balance between faith and works so we not fall in any extreme. we are either too liberal or to legalistic.
also i have found the same joy in reading romans ch.8. the fact that God is working for us gives me peace and comfort that i am not alone, and none of us is alone in this battle.
I agree! Romans 8 makes it clear that we are not alone. No matter how much balance we seek in our spiritual life, at one time or another, we will feel the distance between our sinful nature and our creator. This is why God gift of the Holy Spirit is so powerful. He is with us in our weakness.
Commenting on Romel's paper: I was also blessed by the Article you read on perfection and the same point that you saw caught my attention, which highlighted the point that only through the help of the Holy spirit and living our lives on an upward accent is the closest meaning of perfection. I put it as living up to all the light we've received, and continually growing. That point was important to me.
Just one thing to think about, yes Paul was a great man, powerful in his ministry, but i don't wanna think that makes him better than us as far as our struggle with sin is concerned. His greatness in ministry does not exclude him from soar temptation. He had like passions as ours, and so did all the other great men. I even think that our struggle is more grievous, considering the enormity of evil today, our degeneracy etc, but hey, as far as sin is concerned man, we all in this together. Thanks for your paper.
Commenting on Kevin Paulsen's reflection #8
Thanks for the reflection paper Pastor, i agreed with you on the EGW teaching of sins that are forgiven at the stage of Justification, referring to the past sin only, because the view of God had already forgiven my future sins is not biblical, but because of the continue effect of Christ's atoning sacrifice, when we fall, our forgiveness comes when we repent from our wrongs. I appreciate your reflection Pr Paulsen.
10/22/08
In response to- Elder Rosana Joel
Reflection 8
In reading your paper I began to think that I left some things out of my own in a sense. I like your discussion on that fact that nothing can separate us. While I’ve heard it countless times before you introduced it in a fresh way. The Christian journey is long and may even experience set backs. Yet you bring out the excellent point that despite this reality God is saying that as long as you stay on the road nothing can separate you. This is true assurance of salvation. I also agree with your closing thought that God has given us the necessary tools to accept His salvation. Through the process of F, P, C, J, G God has provided a way to salvation and desires that none should be lost. Therefore this is hope and confidence that if we remain humble and steadfast nothing can separate us.
Comment of James, Reflection Paper 8
First, I'd like to commend you for being very honest about the challenges you are facing with understanding salvation. I'm less confused now than I was before, because we spend a lot of time in class defining a lot of the terminology that is often used as it relates to Salvation. I would have liked to see a quote from the Old testament as an example of how unknown sin was viewed and dealt with during that time so that I could have put your concern in its proper context.
Comment By Sheldon Smith (October 23, 2008)
I like the body language concept of salvation that Dr. Hanna sought to brought across the last few classes. It is a unique idea which has biblical underpinnings and I hope the final product of the subject will be available soon so that the nominal Christian can explore salvation from a different perspective. It should make an interesting and fruitful reading!!!
response to jung you kim reflection #9
I really liked the quotes that you pulled out of the BRI document. Also, I agree that there is nothing that we can add to our salvation, that is what happened on the cross and that is what we recieve by faith. Good comments.
Comment on Wendy Feese's reflection paper 09
I agree with you on the fact that the chapter 9 of Romans is still a challenge, even though so much light has been brought to it in class.
I enjoyed the way in which you summarized the BRI document, very good choice of a quote to describe it.
I would like to comment of Tiago's paper on Chapter 10 of Whidden's book. It is refreshing to see Ellen White's balance in many trying doctrinal issues of her day. Those were not light issues too, but serious erroneous teachings and waves of fanaticism. Thank your for highlighting that point. I'm so glad we have the light that came from her ministry. Blessings to you as you continue to learn and minister.
Comment on Jung Yoo Kim
Reflection Paper #9
I enjoyed reading your paper. You did a really good job of pulling out the main points Blazen made in his article. In addition, I totally agree with you that nothing can save us except Jesus Christ; when we hear His voice we must obey. Finally, I too didn't know much about 1888 until I started reading Whidden's book. I appreciate White's ability to maintain a balance in her writings and with her ability to be educated and in touch with what is taking place in the world during that time.
Gerard Vertilus
10/29/08
Last week, we discussed in class about God's predestination plan for his people, God promise to them that if they seek Him with all their heart, they will find Him according to the book of Acts chapter 17:24-34; Paul make it clear in the book of Romans chapter 9:38-39 where Paul talking about the Jewish people, according to Paul the prophet had to follow an order, according to the prophecy he had to go to them first not because they were the superior people on the surface of the earth but because God chose them as His people so then they may be able to represent God among other nation.
The Jewish people think that they could always be right with God as long they can keek the law and get right with God. As Paul mentioned in Ephesian chapter 2: 8, their is nothing we can do to make us look good in the sight of God when it come to salvation. It was God prerogative to sent his son to die for humanity so human race may be redeemed it is not any good deed or priority or seniority but it is what you call underseve grace of God.
Comment By Sheldon Smith (October 25, 2008)
I found the two presentations in class on October 22nd quite interesting. The two presenters were both unique in their presentation style and were confident with the material they presented.
In addition, I’ve always learnt about God’s Sovereign will vs His permissive will. However I learnt in class from Dr. Hanna that God’s permissive will is a part of His Sovereign will which I think is reasonable.
Gerard Vertitlus
10/29/08
Comment on Panankosi reflection: I am agree with you on your discussion on the letter of roman yes it is a very dificult letter to understands, I also like your summy, but don't forget that we need the Holy Spirit to guide us even to except the gift of salvation
Comments on Caseys Ref # 9
Salvation by faith shall indeed be debatable for time to come, but at the heat of debate one aspect come out as Casey states: ‘The matter of the Heart.’ This is personal and at times mysterious to the finite being. I like the way he describe the body language here; faith and works, heart and mouth. Paul and James read side by side, shall uncloud what leads to the theological debate – Justification and Sanctification.
Response to Casey Reflection 9
You ask a good question as to whether we are saved by faith alone. I guess the question really should be what is the holistic meaning of faith as Paul used it? Even in the text quoted, “for it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved”, we have to ask what he means by heart. In Hebrew culture the heart just wasn’t about emotions or feelings, it was about the center of our being that influences actions. God said that man’s heart is wicked and by saying that He’s implying this as the reason for the actions of humankind. So I think when Paul uses heart here it should be taken to mean a heart that influences actions, hence obedience is also spoken of. Still good reflection.
I like how Baltazart expresses the definition of sin as expressed by White. Indeed if we understand the proper definition of sin the we will not have an excuse to remain in sin again. Thank keep it up.
I agree with Rosana that Salvation is God's business. He stated it and will finish up with those who are willing to be saved.Again our nature should reflect Christ if we have to attain it and i accept these sentiments by Rosana. thanks
Indeed Thank you Big Mike for letting me to know that justification and perfection are closely related. this where there is much confusion thanks for putting it right to me and others probably. Again i lke your comment that salvation is not inherited but we should strive for it to achieve it.
Indeed Thank you Big Mike for letting me to know that justification and perfection are closely related. this where there is much confusion thanks for putting it right to me and others probably. Again i lke your comment that salvation is not inherited but we should strive for it to achieve it.
Thanks Jung Yoo Kim for simlifing the article justifiaction by Faith. many do not get properly but you have done a good job. bravo
For Betty Toussaint, i admire your expression the we dwell on minor things and leave the major ones. may we then focus on what shall enable us to receive salvation.
Comments on Betty’s Ref # 9
I honestly harbor the same feelings that Betty has to our Church. I am glad the way she has expressed the issue in regard to the ministry in Minneapolis, and the relation to the book of Daniel. What impressed me more is what she mentioned about Ellen G White, - standards of evaluating our Holiness and perfection.
I'd like to comment on Tiago Baltazar's Reflection paper 08. I like the way he stated the main points that stood out for him from each reading and how he felt as a response to those chapters and articles. I also agree with what he said regarding Romans 8. It is also always a comfort to me to read that chapter. It is one of those timeless scriptural passages that never grow old for me and give me renewed hope.
Regarding the reflection paper #9 of Ivan T. Blazen. I think he knows how to do a good summary. He seems to be able to take the main point of a long article and articulate in a short paragraph the main points. Personally I find this hard to do sometimes with such a long article. However, after a good job of summarizing, I wish I could have read a personal reaction and gotten a sense of his personal opinion on what he read.
Reflecting on Jung Yoo Kim's paper #10. I think he seems to have a good understanding of what he reads and is able to learn and appreciate the good points that he reads about. I also like his frankness and humility in declaring that he doesn't understand Chapter 11 of Romans that well, but tries to grasp the meaning of it, at least of what seems to stand out for him from the passage. Good reflection.
response to Jung you kim #10
I agree with your comments on Rodriguez' article. Truly God does make it possible for all to be saved, but we have to decide to believe. I am not sure that your view of what happened in 1888 is quite historical. Ellen White did not refer to her views about Christ to regain power, but reminded people so that they would realize that it was not new, but just a restatement, even the part about not trusting thier works for salvation.
Comment Jung You Kim's reflection paper 10
I agree with your opinion on the BRI document, justification is quite an amazing process that God offers us. As far as your comment on Ellen White, it seems that "power wise" she actually lost part of her authority as a prophet, but she kept defending what God revealed her, even if sometimes that wasn't not very popular.
Comment on Laurentiu Roman, Reflection Paper #10
I enjoyed your paper and the example you provided of Paul. Paul is a great example of how one observance of the law did not justify him, because he did not know Jesus. Justification is a gift from Jesus, like you pointed out. Although I agree with you that you don't have to work or do anything for this gift, I do believe that your belief, and it is my opinion that the scriptures stand by the idea that your belief in Jesus should be manifested in works.
Comment on Betty's paper.
I appreciated your caution on some of the words we might use in our discussions on righteousness by faith, relationship of law and grace and all these concepts. They can really get confusing and I believe if we try to stick to the simplicity of the gospel of salvation, we can be safe. Focus on Jesus, as you said in different words is the key. Thank you for highlighting that caution. Blessings.
Commenting on Pannah’s reflection 10
Thanks for the reflections. I totally agree with you on Ellen White’s “healthy balance” in her teachings regarding relationships of some salvation aspects that modern theologians are starting to agree upon.
Here we can fully appreciate her writings because they do not contradict with the Bible. Thanks
Comments Laurentiu Roman’s article #10
Am impressed on how you clearly got Paul’s message of righteousness that he is laboring to convey. The message of the people wanting to create their own righteousness whereas Paul is with the message of hope, God has already done that for you in Christ Jesus. Secondly is how you have come up with message of hope to all who are searching for salvation – this business of righteousness shall be accomplished at the second advent of Christ. ‘Glorification’
response to Jung You Kim # 11
I liked your comment about needing Christ's sacrifice to be able to do good. And I also agree that you that Jan Paulson's article was excellent.
Comment on Wendy's Reflection Paper 11
Wendy, I agree with you that the section on Israel was a little confusing. Paul did state "all" and I wandered how all the children of Israel would be saved if they've made a conscious choice to reject Jesus as the Son of God. I believe that God really wants them to be saved because the were originally the remnant. In additon, I agree that we have the freedom to choose to be saved or lost by our actions.
Comment Anonymous Betty Toussaint's reflection paper 11
I enjoyed very much your comment on Whidden's chapter, it is such a good insight, you make very accurate statements that I think most of us can identify with, at least I do.
I also agree with you in the way you comment Romans 11. It is amazing that despite all the things that Israel did as well as we do now, God does not give up, He keeps pursuing us.
commenting on Baltazart reflection #11
thanks for the reflection. I really agree with you on the area that despite we can reach in some degree of perfection in our characters but its only the merits of Christ that can save us. It really makes me wonder why some christians have tried too hard be perfection in order to be saved. but the blessing comes from understanding that our efforts is only a respond of obedience but never a mean to obtain salvatio. Thanks and God bless
Response to Gerard 11/12/08
Your thoughts are good. Yet I am confused as to whether you’re suggesting that Paul and James are saying something different? So when you said that Ellen White agrees with Paul do you also mean that she disagrees with James? Truthfully, their really not saying the same thing yet they are starting from different points with their respective audiences. I believe there was a question about this on our last test.
Comment on Knight Kurtley Ref # 11
Am glad on how you have intertwined the message of subject of objective faith with the knowledge obtain from Jesus Christ, in other word our salvation is not ideal when we real don’t know what the will of God is all about. Secondly the issue of subjective salvation, you have well illustrated what is all about; what Christ is doing in us. These two points makes the foundation of salvation firm to humanity.
response to Kolia's reflection 11
I really appreciated how you ended your reflection on the idea the only God is perfect in himself. However, does that mean that we will not be perfect in eternity. I agree with your statement, but I wanted to point out how your words can be twisted if you are not careful.
Comment on Wendy Feese's reflection paper 12
I agree with you on your comment of Romans 12, I did too appreciate the input of Dr. Hanna, it brought more light to the chapters that anticipate this one.
I also agree with you on what you say about the Whidden's chapter, it had some noteworthy quotes, examples of that bigger model.
Commenting of Wendy's paper: Thank you for highlighting the practical aspect of Romans 12 as the result of the sanctified life, or at least our goal, if i understood you correctly. I totally agree for that's whole purpose of Christ's mission, loving each other and fulfilling the virtues of Christ. I also enjoyed last week's class. You said he cleared up some questions that you had, how is it that you never ask him of those questions in class? Anyway thanks for your insights.
Commenting on Panakosi's reflection paper #12
Thanks for the reflection paper.
I agree with you on the point of Salvation as inclusive. As we learned from our class discussion that the Apostle is referring to the Spiritual Israel as remnant of God. I think this is unique understanding of Romans 9 that we discussed in class.
Response to Kolia Afamasaga Reflection 12
11/19/08
You’re absolutely right about Paul’s emphasis on total surrender to God. I like the way that you expressed the role that we have to play. We are given gifts to used in God’s service but that these works are not an end of themselves that lead to salvation yet at the same time are important. I also agree with you about the importance of realizing that the process of our salvation continues into the high priestly ministry of Jesus. Truthfully while this may be the official theology of the Adventist Church it is seldom preached on our pulpits. I wonder why is that? For in one sense yes, our salvation was complete at the cross but then in another sense it wasn’t (that was for Dr. Hanna). Personally I’m honestly coming to this realization. It’s something that should be discussed more.
Comment on Kurtley's Reflection Paper #12
I enjoyed reading you paper. You asked some very good questions which worked to support your position on universal justification. I agree with you that reading Whidden's book has given me a greater appreciation of Adventist Theology and the balance that exists. As Adventist we may not get the application right all the time, but our theories are biblically based and balanced.
Comment on Kurtley's Reflection Paper #12
I enjoyed reading you paper. You asked some very good questions which worked to support your position on universal justification. I agree with you that reading Whidden's book has given me a greater appreciation of Adventist Theology and the balance that exists. As Adventist we may not get the application right all the time, but our theories are biblically based and balanced.
Gerard Vertilus
Reflection # 11
AS we continue our discussion on salvation, we certainly beging to understand that the lens we use to view the doctrine of salvation need to be bigger and comprehend the doctrine of justification, sanctificatio and perfection. Each model will definitely shade light and provide clues for a better understanding the doctrine of salvation according to Ellen G. White. This week we study that in Roman chapter 11, what the apostle Paul had to say about salvation. This is a very difficult topic to understand, so many people confuse and take the meaning of the text in a different board view. Some say the phrase and so all Israel will be saved means that the majority of Jews in the final generation before Christ's return will return to Christ for salvation. Others say that Paul is using the term Israel to refer to the "Spiritual" nation of Israel, which is comprised of Jews and Gentiles who have received salvation through faith in Christ.
Thus, All Israel or all believers will receive God's promised gift of salvation. Still other say that all Israel means "Israel as a whole" will have role in Christ kingdom. The Jews identify as a people won't be discarded God chose the nation of Israel, and he has never rejected it. He also chose the church, throug Jesus Christ, and he will never reject it eithter. This does not mean , of course, that all Jews or all church members will be saved. It is possible to be a Jewish or to belong to a church without ever responding in faith. But just because some people have rejected Christ does not mean that God stops working with either the Gentiles or Israel. He continues offer salvation freely to all.
Gerard Vertilus
comment on Pannah paper
I agree with your thoughts Pannah, on justification, sanctification and the law. As you mentioned that these term may confuse a lot of people that's true. Our job as Bible student and Christ representative is to teach and instrut the people, help them to get ready befor it to late for them. This is my suggestion to you. Thank
Comment on Ted's paper. I really appreciate your testimony where you stated that there is an emphasis on the transformation brought on by faith, but sometimes we see a change in people's lives and that change in not because Christ rules the heart but because of self. I like your emphasis on the fact there virtually is no true transformation apart from Christ and we as ministers need to realize that in our ministries. Thanks you. Christ is key!!
Comment on Panankosi's reflection paper 13
You do a good resume of the several documents we analyzed this week. I also enjoyed to see how you look at Romans 13 and how you emphasize the need we have to obey the law in a dimension of relationship with people around us.
response to tiago reflection 13
I really appreciated your thoughts about Romans 13 going with 1 Corinthians 13. I had not thought about that, but I think you are right. I also agree that our church needs to consider and pursue unity, humility and patience
Comment on Tiago's paper. I appreciated your understanding of Romans 14 as a way of Paul inviting us to a God like way of living, putting away judging others but having a sense of community. I think that is important for us to have the mind of God and treat everybody else like how God treats them, not taking advantage or capitalizing on their weaknesses. Thank you.
Comment By Sheldon Smith (December 03, 2008)
I particularly like the research project that Tiago has embarked upon in seeking to find out what perfection is. I like his approach from the Biblical and historical perspective. However, I wish there was more time in class for him to have done more in his presentation so we could get more from his findings and see where he was really heading.
Comment on Panakosi’s reflection #14
Thanks for the reflection. I totally agree with you on the manner of how people misinterpreted Rom 14. Indeed they all fast, keep the Sabbath and all is required but the theme is the law of love. Christians must exercise true love to each other and to those who do not trust God.
response to panankosi #14
I appreciated your comments on Ellen White's views that during the time of trouble people will be perfect in that they do not commit rebellion and meditating sins, but they will not get rid of their imperfect sinful natures. I also liked your comments on Romans 14.
Comment to Jung Yoo Kim's Reflection Paper #13
I totally agree with you that Whidden's summary of Ellen White's doctrine on perfection was comprehensive. The more I study the life of Jesus, and His response to the people of His time, and the challenges and temptations he faced, and how He loves us even today, I'm amazed and awed by His character. Furthermore, that was a provoking statement you made when you stated that "all behaviors and thoughts should be based on faith only." It makes me think about accountability for my actions.
Comment on Kolia's reflection paper 14
I enjoyed the way in which you emphasized the law of love and freedom as being displayed in Romans 14, it is an interesting connection.
I agree in what you say about the Ellen White and her views on perfection, it is indeed fascinating and very useful for our christian experience.
Comment on Kolia's Reflection Paper #14
I really enjoyed reading your reflections on Romans 14. Paul is trying to teach the Christians love and its importance above all else. As Christians, especially Adventists, we have a tendency to condemn those who don't follow the health message or keep the Sabbath. I believe in the Sabbath and the health message. Our job is to teach others what the bible says and disseminate the information and let the Holy Spirit convict their hearts. As you stated, it's God's prerogative to judge. Not mine!
Comment on Kolia's Reflection Paper #14
I really enjoyed reading your reflections on Romans 14. Paul is trying to teach the Christians love and its importance above all else. As Christians, especially Adventists, we have a tendency to condemn those who don't follow the health message or keep the Sabbath. I believe in the Sabbath and the health message. Our job is to teach others what the bible says and disseminate the information and let the Holy Spirit convict their hearts. As you stated, it's God's prerogative to judge. Not mine!
Gerard Vertilus
Reflection #14
As we come at the end of our class discussion we learn more about salvation and model that we need to include to help us extend our model. We've learn also that we have to be patient while we continue to study about salvation. We can be a stumblinblock or someone who are there as a light bearer to help somebody else to grow and study the Bible more. For instance in Roman chapter 14, Paul argument was sor off, a light bearer to his hearer so to speak.
Believers was so judgment about trivial matters even make people embarrass to go shopping. They were judging each other, they were offended people about food that they were eating. Paul couldn't understand how believers of church are destroying the body of God for unecessary thing. Judging each other is not the best way to go according to Paul. If someone think that behavior can be a problem for weak believer it better to behave properly according to the Bible. He suggest to the reman for them not offend anyone by the way of eating or buying food. The food that they have problem with are created by God why they make such a big issue with them. We pretty much have quit the same problem in our church today believe who do not eat meat sometinme offend other and claim that Sister White says that and I know that not true. In order for us to grow as a church so and assure each one with the assurance of Salvation we need focus on the word of God and embrace the guidline of Spirit of prophecy, by doing we will not go wrong.
Gerard Vertilus
comment on Kolia's reflection. I agree with your comment on chapter 14 of roman. I certainly believe that the believers was not understand properly what it means to be a Christian. And haw the need to support each other in their growing process. I have a little concern though about what you said. You underscore that they had not been taught. I don't think it was only that because they were taught by Paul. It has to do with love and understanding also.
Gerard Vertilus
Reflection #13
Our discussion getting sweeter about our topic which is salvation. As we continue to learn more about salvation we discover that the other model like obedient to the word of God are importand to help us understand salvation in a bigger model as we agree in class. In 1888 one of the most important statement Elder Waggoner and Elder John presented to the people was Obedient to all commandment of God. Ellen G. White even says that Christ merit make our obedient acceptable. In roman 13, Paul teaches that for hearers to be obedient and respecful. According to him they must respect and abey authorities. Another word give tribute to ceasar, and the other hand honor God. Ellen White also comment on that, she said that obedient has relationship with justification which give us access to salvation. As we continue study on the doctrine of salvation we need to encourage our people to embrace that attribute which we include in our 10 model.
Gerard Vertilus
Comment on Young yoo, I am agreing with you comment on roman 13. I understand that from Chapter 7 through 14, Paul had some difficult argument with the roman church it was not easy argument and I see where you come from. The only thing though I will suggest for your church to be patient study the bible more
Gerard Vertilus
Reflection # 8
Chapter in our book teach us about the natute of Christ and salvation. This could be one of the most difficult topic of all time. A lot of people don't agree with Ellen White on that topic and eve misquote her. Based on the author argument some people interpret Ellen G White as emphasizing the similarities, seeing Christ as sinful in nature though not in actioons. She never reprimanded or directly corrected any of these person for their arian views,Ellen white believe in the nature of Christ. Her doctrine of Christ is well ballanced. Paul views in Roman 8 corralate with the view of Ellen G. White.
Paul views urge individuls to live in the spirit and abandoned the act of the flesh, because who so ever live according to the flesh cannot please God. The Spirt raised Christ from the dead and God promise to give us the same Spirit that was raised Jesus from the dead. Our salvation is assure when the spirit live in us but if our deed caused the Spirit to run away from us dispite of what we do if gonna be a big challenge for us understand the nature of Christ and the plan of salvation.
Gerard Vertilus
Comment on Laurentiu reflection, I agree with about what you said on nature of Christ and also the statement you made concerning our decision to be righteous. I think you got it all right.
Reflection on Tiago Baltazar reflection #14
Thanks for the reflection, i totally agree with you on BRI article on Romans 3: 21-24, you have rightly put it that justification is not limited to human limitation but relying on God's merits through Jesus' Christ.
comments #6 Elder Rosana Joel's reflection
The Bible sure has many mysteries we human can not grasp. You mentioned the quote from Rodriguez "in manner that the sin of humanity is not the sin of Adam, but because he was the one who represented humanity, what he did affected humanity."
when we go to heaven we can fully understand the mysteries of sin and salvation.
comments #7 Jung Yoo Kim's reflection
You quoted Romans 7: 21, “I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.”
The insight you gained from this verse grabed my attention. You said; "It sounds like Paul wants to follow God’s law but his original character prevents him from it."
How often we try to do things right but we fail to do so or keep the goodness going because of our old character. This calls for our complete dependence on the Lord.
comments #8 Kolia Afamasaga's reflection
You mention that the book of Romans show how serious sin is and I agree with you. The most deadliest disease on this earth did not have effect on the entire creation but sin, effected everything God created on this earth. Studying the book of Romans is crucial for our daily walk with Christ.
Comments #12 Laurentiu Roman’s reflection
“In Romans 12 apostle Paul appeals to our will. God calls us to make a choice about the way that we live for Him, and that we are able to offer ourselves to God as He works His mercy in us.”
It is good to know that God is calling us and not commanding us and also I’m glad that God wants to use us who are so feeble.
Comments #13 Betty Toussaint’s reflection
I’ve often heard that perfection was impossible. However, Ellen White taught that “perfection of intelligence and a purity of character but a little lower than the perfection and purity of angels” is possible. We need to understand that perfection of character has many facets. By beholding Jesus daily, He will reveal to us our character flaws and the Holy Spirit will provide us with the strength to overcome these infirmities.
We can never be perfect like Jesus but like you mentioned by beholding Jesus daily, He will truly reveal our faults so that we can be one step closer to being perfect.
Comments #14 Jung Yoo Kim’ reflection
“I can still have hope because I have the Bible and the Holy Spirit.”
The Bible and Paul’s message is to give people hope for what is to come in the near future. If we do not have anything to hope for our lives will be meaningless.
I’m glad that you found hope, and I hope that the Lord will use you to help others to find hope in their lives.
Comments #15 Kolia Afamasa’s reflection
“A justified life can have victory over sin is through the merit of Christ. Its interesting to know from her pen that “Our sanctification is God’s object in all His dealing with us. He has chosen us from eternity that we may be holy.”
I agree with you that without the merit of Christ we can accomplish nothing. “Our sanctification is God’s object in all His dealing with us..” this is very comforting for me and what is more comforting is that He has chosen me
Comment #10 Laurentiu Roman’s reflection
“the righteousness of faith is received by believing in Jesus, and we don’t have to “work” to get Jesus. It is not as if we have to ascend into heaven or descend into the abyss to gain Jesus. We believe and receive. Manuel RodrÃguez is supporting the idea that justification is a free gift which we have received through Jesus Christ death and this gift is supported only by those who accept it.”
The key word here seems is to “accept’ and I agree with you, but often times sin makes it so hard for people to “accept” Tomas one of Jesus’ disciples could not believe that the person who was standing in front of him was Jesus until he saw the scars.
Comments #11 Wendy Feese’ reflection
Freedom is what we hope for as we live our lives. We want to be free from many things such as jobs, sickness, school, and ultimately SIN…
“Paul talks about grafting branches in and cutting branches off is a very good text to show that salvation can be lost after you have got it, but it can also be regained after you have lost it. It is always our choice to react to what God had done and to change our mind and act differently toward God. God gives us that freedom.” I like this comment you made.
I’m so glad that God gave us freedom to choose. Giving us freedom means that He respects our decisions.
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