1. Commenting on: "I have been saved; I am being saved; I will be saved."
Scripture speaks profoundly on this topic. Writing to the church of Corinth, Apostle Paul says, "I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which ye have RECEIVED, and wherein ye STAND; By which also ye are SAVED..." (1 Cor. 15:1-2 KJV). The past, present, and future salvation are all mentioned in this particular text. As long as we "abide" in Christ, the assurance of salvation is guaranteed! Caution must be exercised here. We must not confuse this assurance of salvation with the doctrine of election, which when pressed to its logical end breeds once saved always saved!
2. Commenting on: "Once one is sanctified that individual is automatically perfect."
This is beautifully stated. It captures the very words when Paul says, "By one offering, he [Christ] has perfected forever them that are being sanctified." Heb. 10:14. Justification and Sanctification occur simultaneously! We can look at the thief on the cross, surely, when Christ assured him of eternal life, justification and sanctification (which is perfection at every stage) proceeded immediately and simultaneously!
Thank you Valmy Stephen for having brought out this Biblical text. Yeah, no thinking person, I think, in their right mind can not translate Hebrews 10:14 to say that once saved is always saved. The author, I believe, uses the past perfect tense indicating that Salvation has, to imitate him, taken place sometime ago and continues to take place as we speak. David never failed to acknowledge the God of the Old Testament as the God of his salvation. Furthermore, The author makes mention of being perfect forever and that, in my understanding, refers to that great day when the saints will be marching on, when the morning star will shine from east to west and north to south, and when the tribe of the lion of Judah will burst the cloud of the sky to come and take his children home, the glorious day or the day of glorification. What a great passage? Another big idea I would like to bring out of this passage is the idea of “those who are being sanctified” to indicate that the work of salvation is still in progress. See, I am glad the Lord is not through with me and for this I am eternally grateful. It occurs to me that in this passage alone that work of salvation which has been, is, and will be, is very obvious. Talking about justification and sanctification, which one happened in the Christian life first? Montes Estinphil
This suggestion is on the anonymous, That person is talking that Salvation is from the Lord as well as perfection, and it proceed to say that a person needs to sanctify first; however, I believe Justification is the first thing someone received. As to concern about anything involved Salvation, I think you have nothing to do. God does everything! The only thing you have to do is open your heart when Holy Spirit knocking. You said also, Salvation has been around since Eternity and will be around throughout ceaseless ages. I’m 100 percent agree with that because salvation is a part of God before the creation of the world, God knows for sure the human race is going to sin that He made provision for them; in case or when they became sin that He would died for them. I believe also when we get to New Heaven and the New Earth, we will eat the tree of life to live.
We talked in class about ‘whatever is not faith is sin.’ Romans 14:23 seems to be talking about eating food without wondering whether the food is clean or not. If someone has any doubts on some kind of food then do not eat. When eating, we believe that the food will nourish our body and not kill us. If we believe otherwise then it is better not to eat because we are doing something we have no faith in and therefore our conscience will be at peace. Whatever one distrusts should not be done. This is presumptions. Is this faith the same as having faith in Jesus’ righteousness? Or just having faith in merely food? I guess it can be both. Whether we exercise faith in God or in a thing it is faith. Putting faith in a thing would be thing which God approves of – a godly thing. In other words, we believe in doing something that Jesus would have done. I was wondering whether or not the text was well chosen since I saw it emphasize more on the idea of eating something clean at first glance. It is well taken. More power to you Dr.hanna! Montes Estinphil
Thank you Pohlmarc for pointing out that salvation is multifaceted. A holistic approach will embrace such a view because we are saved every move we make in Jesus and salvation has not changed since the time we have accepted it. We also discussed in class that there are many kinds of salvations: deliverance, protection, healing, cleaning, restoration, adoption, victory in Jesus, and many more. I do not think I am fully en agreement that all those ways mentioned above are different facet of salvation because why would Jesus restore my life without bringing healing, peace, deliverance, cleansing to my soul? I am more inclined to think that salvation is package that comes with all different goodies we have mentioned in class. Vindication, healing, birth, education, and others are the results or outcomes of salvation. It is like a Christian without the fruits of the Spirit is not a Christian. Salvation without peace and love to all is not salvation. No matter the form or shape it may take, salvation = Jesus. Montes Estinphil
I want to comments on Montes Estinphil suggestions that “Romans 2:11contrasts, in my thinking, the idea that God has been slowly leading humankind to repentance. Reason being, it says “There is no partiality in God”. My question is why would He lead me to repentance and bypass my next door neighbor? How much my personal choice is important in that process of salvation?”, According to my understanding, the Bible also said, "God loved Jacob, but hated Esau" Rom 9.13 , and Exodus 10:1 has a curious statement: “Then the Lord said to Moses, ‘Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials, so that I may perform miraculous signs of mine among them.’” What the Bible really said is that, if the Lord called you and you are working in His way that your heart is softened by Holy Ghost, but if you are refusing when is knocking then your heart is hardened day by day. In a sense, I’m completely agree with you on that statement, “Paul says those who die with the law will judge with the law and those who die without the law will judge with the law.” However, we as people need to know there is no sin if you don’t know.
I want to comments on Infinite reflection! I believe the faith in Romans 1:18 is talking about that is the faith of God. The righteousness that comes from God or the righteousness that acceptable to God that was revealed and manifested in the death of Christ; however, I agree with passive faith assessment - from faith to faith- it is the Gospel who moves from one generation to another or from one people to another. As you know, the Bible of the Apostles was the Old Testament. The same message of the Old Testament is the one we are preaching up to now but upgrade to New Testament. The Bible said, Man could never conceive or attain to this divine righteousness by his own unaided reason and philosophy. The just should live by faith – permanent faith-in what Christ has already done for them.
Thank you all for posting, I have read all comments posted and I appreciate the different approaches on what God does for the salvation of mankind. However, how do you read Romans 1:26? The text explicitly says “God gave them up.” How do we reconcile that with what Pierre says God is no respecter of person? Is there a limit to what he is willing to do to save? What would make him give up? Anyone may try at answering these intriguing questions.
In the article, “Adam and the Human Race in the Writings of Ellen White,” Angel Manuel Rodriguez summarizes the fall of Adam and what it caused. There were immediate results from the fall, but some of the judgments were immediate delayed because Christ stepped in as our mediator. Our first parents did not immediately face judgment because of that mediation, and it is because of that mediation that we too have an opportunity of reconciliation. I really like how the judgment is explained by using the example of our first parents. The Bible tells us that we will all be judged according to our works, but that seems to contradict justification by faith. However, if we understand it in context of what happened to Adam and Eve then it makes perfect sense. After they sinned, Adam and Eve were shown the way back to God through Christ and it was their choice to accept or reject Him. In the end they will be judged according to their choice to accept Christ or reject Him and their works will reflect that choice. The same is true of us today, if we have accepted Christ our life will reflect that choice, it will be evident whether or not we have made Him our salvation and for all who choose Him the perfect record of the Son is placed over ours. Another point was made concerning how humanity fell in Adam. It’s not that we were mystically in Adam when he committed the sin, but that we inherited the propensity that he inherited when he fell. When he fell, we fell. Through the one transgression we all became transgressor because Adam was our representative. This fact is beautiful because of what follows. In Romans 5:19 Paul says that through Adam we all fell, but in Christ we were all made righteous. We all believe that we are sinners because of the singular act of Adam in the Garden of Eden. Why do we believe this? Because the Scripture is clear on this topic. It would seem a bit unfair that we inherited this fallen nature, guilt and destruction through one man, even though we were not there. However, salvation occurs the same way. Therefore, we need to begin to place our faith in Christ rather than Adam. As Adam was our representative, so now Christ has became our representative. This is a wonderful truth, because it teaches the simplicity of the Gospel. Choose Christ and everything and become and inherit what He has provided rather than Adam and what resulted from his fall, it’s a choice; a no-brainer.
I want to comment on Andrew Pileggi observation. I believe when the Bible said faith and work, they are the same thing. By example, the Bible said Abraham’s or rehab’s faith or that of any other heroes of faith honored in Heb 11. By faith they obeyed the work Christ will do for them. In the commentary, if someone goes to church on name only, without a personal witness that reflects the ministry of Christ on their behalf, are, as it were, mere corpses. I agreed with you with Adam’ humanity, if he did not sin, may be Lucifer might not come back; however, he was creating with propensity, and God will punish us for our sins not Adam’s sins.
The idea of possessing a broad, holistic understanding of the issues of Salvation is quite necessary and is welcome. This may solve to some extent the ongoing tensions concerning various aspects of Salvation and in my opinion create new ones.
This sort of dialectic, inclusiveness is limited in what it will be able to accomplish. While I do not deny that arguing that water is just oxygen or on the other hand just hydrogen (read Christ’s nature pre-lapsarian vs. post-lapsarian etc) is quite unnecessary. This is not true about all issues. There are those where the “either/or” model MUST be used. One cannot be inclusive and synthesizing forever, since, we agree, I hope that truth is not relative. This is true with certain aspects of Salvation as well. It is EITHER, We are all born to die until we are infant-baptised (referring to one shade of original sin) OR we are not. We are can EITHER be on an upward growth to perfection OR plateau in our experience and claim perfection already.
My point is that the “inclusive” model (if I may call it that’) is limited and at some points is not so inclusive. It should at some point be non-inclusive, or else we may as well convert to Hinduism where everything is sufficiently holistic and conveniently inclusive.
Montes I want to thank Max for expressing his passion based on what has been written. As I read this input, two things strike me and here they are: Justification is the first thing that happens to the believer and the other one is salvation is a part of God. Sanctification and justification are so mingled, so close, and so friendly that one does not go anywhere without the other. Once you see one then the other is present also. In other words, you cannot be justified without being sanctified and vice-et-versa. I wish you could have expounded a little bit more on the idea that salvation is a part of God. Once I saw your thought, the thought came to me then “who can save”? Salvation is from the Lord. No one else can save. He is the only one who has the ability to grant us salvation. To me, He is salvation. Off course, He is everything one think of: He is the rock, the shield, the fortress, protector, and so forth and so on. He is the Savior; He is not just a part of salvation; He is more than just a piece of salvation; He is salvation. Montes Estinphil
I want to comments on Montes suggestion of Romans. When the Bible said, people without law; basically, the Bible refers to 10 Commandments sometimes the Old Testament. There are a lot of sins who were not part of the 10 Commandments or Old Testament. God has been talking in different ways and different manners even without the Law a person could see there is a God. I agree with you in that assessment “No society can progress without law. There would be chaos and upheavals day after day; week after week and all the time.” Do we (Theologians students)think when we go to heaven there will be Law? That we will have free will! If that is true, how God knew that we will not sin again.
I want to comment on Lenard, In Romans 1: 16, Paul was talking about that He was not ashamed of the Gospel -the Incarnation, the exemplary Life, the death and resurrection of Christ. The Gospel has 4 interpretations – Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, the interpretations of the Gospel was not inspired; however, they were written by the inspired people. I agree with you in Romans 10:10, mouth confession came after the Gospel has been received by the heart that is inward change.
My response to Lenard’s Reflection on “Salvation as free gift of God.”
You are right on your comment in saying that Paul spoke of salvation as a free gift from God. Some people incline to end here by believing that God’s free gift is for everyone and you do not have to do anything else to earn your salvation or it will be meritorious. However, a gift is to be taken or the gift will be sitting there with no effect at all. A free gift is meant to be freely taken by anyone and if no one takes it then the gift is no longer worthy.
So you continue on to state that the gift is for those that believe. Now there’s distinction between takers of the free gift and those that just recognized the free gift of salvation. There’s need for the takers to believe first. If that step is not taken then the free gift of salvation will be continuing to sit where it was put at first. As you have mentioned that believing Christ and accepting His salvation then it follows by a demonstration of a life experiencing sanctification. This is active faith.
I also like when you quote Romans 10:10 “. . . and with the mouth he confess, resulting in salvation.” When we believe God’s salvation, then there’s demonstration as Lenard said. It means that there’s outward evidence of what we believe. Our hearts will change and as a result we will recognize our sins and that will drive us to confess them. We will be standing up against all odds to declare that God is true and that we live because His Son died on the cross for all our sins. This free gift of salvation for the believers will work inside them to confess Christ in word and deed. This will be a manifestation that faith is not passive only but it is active too.
Thank you very much brother for the comments. God bless.
Andre, I really appreciate your balanced approach in terms of the law and love. I have noticed the same thing happening in our churches- that people approach obedience to the law without a loving spirit. It seems to me that rather than judging someone while we are obedient, we should love them out of genuine concern for their salvation. I think it is a sad road to take to claim to be obedient while condemning people who aren’t as enlightened as you are. I think it is a short-cut. Rather than obeying the two great commandments, its much easier to view others as ‘lost’ and in turn use them as stepping-stones for our own “righteousness.” I appreciate your comment on how people should feel our love, long before they hear of the doctrines. The only thing I have to say in terms of criticism on your post is the punctuation and sentence structure. Thanks for the inspiring post brother!
I am responding to Wallin, who said... "Perfectionism is a problem that is plaguing most churches today."
I agree with your point, Wallin, and many times and many times consider the following principle, in order to "balance out" the seeming command to be in-ourselves sinless in Matthew 5. It is found a couple of different ways in the New Testament epistles: first in Romans 13:10 where Paul states that “Love is the fulfillment of the law”, and the second in 1 Peter 4:8, where Peter says “Love covers a multitude of sins”.
Now, many with an agenda to do away with the law might claim these verses as an evidence of freedom from the law, law nailed to the cross, etc. But it is not that. It is, rather, returning us to the first principle of heaven: that of love, which is the over-arching theme for the rest of the commands anyway (you’ll recall, in fact, that Jesus made his statement in Matt. 5 in the context of talking about loving our enemies).
Love was the greatest and first principle in heaven. And while this law was perfectly kept, the other laws were a moot point, because they were subordinate to the greatest law of love. (We can debate the extent to which a specific law was laid out in heaven before the fall, but practically, it doesn’t matter very much). The Ten Commandments, given at Mount Sinai to the children of Israel, were a subordinate set of laws to the first, intended to create a society (a foundation) in which selfless love was possible. The further extensions of the hundreds of specific laws given in the Pentateuch after this were furthermore subordinate to the Ten Commandments. When Christ came, he restored the law to it’s proper perspective, stating that “all the law and the prophets” hang on the twin principles of loving God and loving one-another. I believe that it is in this same vein that Paul and Peter claim that we can actually fulfill the law (or ‘cover’ our sins) by loving perfectly. You find in Romans 12-15 an extensive discussion on what it means to love, including a laundry list of things in the second half of Romans 12, which shows that Paul was not breathing mere sentiment, but was pointing out, in detail, what to actually fulfill this law meant.
So, to get back to your comment, Wallin, I discover it ironic that, so often, those who have claimed to have reached perfection are often the ones that appear farthest from this principle of love (especially undeserved love, as talked about by Jesus in Matt. 5). I fear that they have done the same things that the Jews had done in Jesus’ day; gotten the proverbial cart before the horse. They are worshipping the form of what the law was actually intended to point toward.
I agree that lifestyle issues are important. I agree that standards are important. But I believe that living a life with a principle of love will largely cause one to gravitate to the same specifics anyway. If I truly love others as myself, there is no longer a reason to decorate myself up with extensive jewelry or tattoos. If I truly have compassion on those more needy than I, than there is really no risk of becoming covetous of those who have more than I. The fine points of the law tend to work themselves out when the main principle is kept in view.
God, in his mercy, gave us the lesser laws in order to lead us back to the greater. And I unhesitatingly affirm that they need to be followed fully. But if we keep the lesser, while averting our eyes from the greater, we become what Christ called “whitewashed tombs”.
Comments in reaction to Roger Saint-Fleur on ‘Gospel is Bigger than the Cross’
Roger, I really appreciate your thoughtful reflection on what the gospel is, and how it relates to human experience. What a powerful testimony indeed regarding Paul’s conversion and then passion to preach the good news. I agree with you that compassion, mercy, and love need to go hand in hand with the preaching of the gospel. How many people, I wonder, have been turned off to the good news, because it was preached in an unloving context. I remember seeing someone on the streets reading John from a megaphone. The way he read it carried a very condemning tone. Looking around I noticed that many people were leaving and shaking their heads in disapproval. As Christians we need to show love in all that we do. I want to respond to one statement you made: “Gospel is truly a miracle of God. It is not necessary to fully understand, if you try to understand everything, you can lose yourself.” First of all, I agree that the Gospel truly is a miracle. I think that what you are communicating reflects what we have been learning in obtaining a larger model for salvation and the gospel. However, it seems that in saying that it is not necessary to fully understand may be interpreted as us having an excuse to not study the many dimensions of the Gospel, with the goal of understanding. Though it’s a mystery, I believe that we will be spending all eternity trying to grasp the Gospel. As you said, we may lose ourselves, but think of what amazing knowledge we gain as God increases in our lives!
Responding to "Justification and Sanctification" by Nathan Hellman
I appreciate very much what was said with regards to your effort to have a wholesome view of justification and sanctification, and your conclusion that the faith that we exhibit has to be an active faith. "if we WALK in the light" requires some walking. Although I agree with you I wanted to raise a discussion in class today and this seems to be the perfect arena in which to... "vent". I also understand the concern of those who want to limit the atonement to be solely substitutionary. This is because, if we understand that all is accomplished by God through Christ, how do we then include moral influence as part of the atonement. Would including moral influence include the idea that in order for the atonement to be effective I HAVE to participate? If so then could one really say that Christ died for all, including those who refuse to be influenced? I had a theory, that is that we really need to include more the work of the Holy Spirit in our view of Salvation. Although the Spirit works in conjunction with Christ; because He "Doesn't testify of himself" His work is just as vital if we are to include moral influence in the atonement. Also I believe that Christ's decision to function as our mediator, made it a "justified" experience (legal experience) for the Holy Spirit, who is God, communicate with us, who are sinful beings. All this to say, my head is spinning from how deep the "rabbit hole" gets. And it's good to know that We're not alone in trying to be whollistic in our understanding of god's word.
Responding to "Mark Tatum on Chapters 5 & 6 of Whidden's Book"
I appreciate the way you dealt with the subject of the pickle God was put in by Lucifer's unjust accusations. I also like you wish that you had more time and more space to elaborate on your discussion but, a little moderation is good sometimes too. :-) One thing I did want to suggest in regards to mercy being shown in response to sin and prior to sin it being an "unseen" trait of God. [I hope I did miss-represent you in my paraphrase]. I wanted to suggest that the Mercy of God was present and evident before Sin. In the Story of Redemption, Ellen White writes of the time God and the angels spent laboring with Lucifer over his new ideas before he (Lucifer) took them into open rebellion. I believe God in his ever-present mercy allows us to ask questions even though He is the All powerful ruler of the universe. His mercy is in a sense built in to the system because it is not a sin to ask questions.
Comments on Paul A. Samuel’s report about “Ellen White on Salvation” Chapter 1.
I agree in the point that “Ellen White on Salvation” author does not clarify if Mrs. White later moved to where conversion is not expressed with joy. I also agree that she might not giving much emphasis to a public display of the joy of salvation due to the fanatics. I I think that there can be a public expression of joy for salvation that can go with the intellectual part. However, I do not think it should be like a formal act where the others can see that you are really saved. The expression of joy should come naturally and based on the wonderful things that the Lord has done in your life. There might be that some people do not like to talk in public, but their character should irradiate joy and peace. Galatians 5 says that one of the fruits of the Spirit is joy. Therefore, if you have accepted Jesus and you continue in a constant relationship with Him, joy will be present in your life.
My comments on: Montes said... In reading Romans 4:7
1. Bravo on using one text and really elaborating. That is not easy to do.
2. I appreciate your point about us all worshiping something. That we are a created to be worshipers. I think that is so true we are all, in fact, worshiping something even when we say that we don't believe in God. Is it money? Fame? Things?
3. I think it is very important to understand what you set forth in the last paragraph of your response paper - all of our "Spirit-inspired works" have no merit - they are a gift from God.
Comments on Andrew Pileggi’s report about “Adam and the Human Race in the Writings of Ellen White.”
I really liked what you wrote regarding the article by Angel Manuel Rodriguez. Our Savior Jesus Christ is wonderful that allow that some results from the fall come immediately but delay other because He came in the rescue of Adam and Eve. What words could I use to describe this act? It is a huge love that our minds are not capable of understand. You did a great job in writing also about judgment being explain by the example of Adam and Eve. We need to make a decision to either choose Christ or reject Him. The keeping of the law is a reflection of our real commitment to Jesus. He is showing love to us, and because we love Him we will do His will. In the other point you mentioned that we are all sin because Adam’s fall, I agree that God is not unjust. For Adam entered sin in the world and by Jesus all can be saved. These are great news. As you said we could be discouraged because of our situation. However, we need to look to Jesus, and look forward to the day in which the Lord will come to restore us.
I have read Valmy's blog and I tend to agree. We do polarize our concepts of salvation and sin for that matter. Like it was stated in class we need to broaden our understanding of these concepts. Sin is much bigger than we think. There are so many dimensions to it like the physical, the mental, the sins you know, the sins you don't know. I don't fully understand the whole thing my self, but i do know no matter how great my sin Gods grace is greater.
I really enjoyed the comment posted by Pohlmark and especially the paragraph concerning the dangers behind the perfection debate. Like with many debates in the church, whenever two extreme views are debated in such an unforgiving manner as this topic, more harm than good is done. It is true that each person views salvation “through the lens of their own experience”. I also don’t think that there will be any consensus concerning this issue. I would however disagree that it is a “mere theological quivel”. As Pohlmark rightly observes some young, both of age and “young in faith”, can be affected and follow any of the radical explanations given to them. The example of the formation of Ellen White’s understanding can be applied to many young “growing up in the church.” And regretfully, many find themselves under the influence of one of the two groups instead of being presented with a larger view of salvation.
In my response to Andrew I want to just say how grateful I am that Jesus stepped in as our mediator right when humanity fell into sin. He was the Mediator for humanity even before the Cross. And it’s very rightly said that the choice is ours and our choice reflects in our works. The issue of propensity to sin that we inherited is often confused with so-called original sin. Rather, instead of choosing to believe in original sin we can accept that through Adam all of humanity fell, but we have a new inheritance and a new past in Christ’s perfect life.
Comment to Pohlmarc Lawrence’s comment posted on 9-09-09
I appreciated the gem parallel. I have grown to understand lately that salvation is indeed a multi-faced theme. I used to think of it in terms of complex, but the fact that there are also multiple faces to explore is another new dimension of salvation. I too agree that the view of salvation needs to be larger, and more inclusive.
I also appreciate the thoughts on the example he used – the issue of perfection. “We find that our individual views, only become error when we hold them exclusively, discounting the possibility that what another theologian is saying may be correct as well.”
The illustratio of a young Christian is relevant. Would he be discouraged at the idea that he needs to attain perfection, because God asks us to? Or would he become self-indulgent, because he has already attained perfection through justification? There are risks in ether view, but I think something we all need to constantly keep in mind is that we can only overcome sin through God’s power, and that progression is something that we will experience even on the other side of eternity.
And I agree that we need to see both sides of an issue.
I think one reason why sometimes we tent to defend one side or another on a topic/issue is because we, Christians, believe in absolute truth. However, what we sometimes fail to understand /keep in mind is that the absolute truth is complex and multifaceted, and is revealed to human beings, who have their limitations in comprehending.
“For centuries now, theologians, philosophers, scientists have debated from both sides of isles; one side seeking to emphasize one portion of truth at the expense of the other.” “Tensions {…} stem from a presupposition that two ideas are always mutually exclusive”, says Valmy. But “Mutual exclusivity only widens the gaps and thus pushes us far from truth!”.
I really liked Valmy Stephen Karemera’s discussion on active and passive faith. I agree that active faith is the result of passive faith. What I think about often is the fact that many may be showing active faith before being moved by passive faith, as in the case of those who trust in works for salvation.
In response to Pohlmarc Lawrence I would like to comment on the two camps on the issue of Christian perfection. We hear this discussion all the time, but the problem is that this passage is largely misunderstood. If we look at the context we see that perfection in this passage is not referring to moral behavior, but to love, especially love for enemies. Jesus is focusing on love, which to Him is the sum of the law. I know that the previous statement reminds us of our brethren who try to explain away the Sabbath by saying that the sum of the law is love. We need to understand that love is the sum of the law. The ability to love all beings unconditionally most resembles the character of God, with emphasis on the love of God (which is balanced with justice and mercy). We focus so much on the law as if God needs lawyers; we need to become lovers.
My Response to Adelina’s “Justification by Faith – Before 1888
My view of the misinterpretation of the doctrine of justification by faith as being twisted is that people are looking for loopholes to excuse their weaknesses and to defend their lust for sinning and rejecting that faith leads to obedience. As a result, they adopt the concept of “once saved, always saved,” stated by Adelina in her reflection.
I am impressed with what Adelina restated of what Whidden says, that people fall into the big temptation of “taking sin lightly and destroy the importance of obedience.” I am aware that there are some Christians who totally disregard and pay no heed at all to obedience as part of justification. They believe that obedience is work and therefore it is salvation by work in which Paul does not teach. That is keeping the Law as a mean of salvation. But Adelina is right in mentioning what Ellen White said: “The doctrine is an invitation to presumptuous sinning.”
In my experience of justification is that I believe that Jesus Christ died for my sin and in my constant communication with Him through prayers, I recognize how sinful and how really bad I am. And this prompt me again to continue seek His presence in my life. This strengthens my trust and faith in Him. Here’s my beloved text, Hebrew 11:1 “Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see,.” (NIV) In 2000 back in New Zealand I believed that God had called me to His Ministry, and now after nine years I still hold on to my faith in God. My faith in Him causes me to obey and leave everything behind but to follow Him. I arrived at La Sierra University with no money and similarly here at Andrews University with my family. I have experienced that God had lead me this far only by trusting Him.
My question now, did I obey God just because I did not trust Him. I must tell you that if I came here on my own accord, I have been given up already. But because faith leads to more power from God then the result is obedience. Is faith relates to obedience, yes is the answer. Did I obey to receive salvation, no, my obedience to God’s call was solely due to my trust and faith in Christ.
Indeed, I want to congratulate you, Nathan, for the balance and more holistic approach toward Lenard’s comment on Salvation out of love for others. Every act of God is an act of love. Therefore it should be the core of everything we do. However, you said “we should love them out of genuine concern for their salvation” which maybe a little work based salvation in some people’s point of view. Rather, we should just lover others for the sake of loving. It is much more easier to pass onto others what has been given to us. We love people in spite of who they are because we are saved and we are saved to seek and save the lost. While showing genuine concern our fellow believers we are working out our own salvation with fear and trembling. We are in this thing together. Whatever I happen to do for your salvation whether you realize it or not you do the same thing for my salvation. I also would like to express my thank you to Daniel Vega – Lescano for kindly pointing out the joy of salvation. Usually regardless of what happens after one has accepted Christ as Savior and Lord, they count it all with joy. I believe that happens as a result of the Holy Spirit’s presence in the life of the new believer and joy is one of the fruits of the Spirit of God. So, as soon as we put our hands in the hands of God for salvation, no matter what form that salvation might take, the fruit of Christ’s abiding presence will be obvious. Others will affirm certain characteristics and God-given gifts and talents that can be put into the service of the Master. So, saying “I do not think salvation should be like a formal act where the others can see that you are really saved” would probably stretch it too far. Oftentimes, if you stay around someone enough you can tell such a person is a saved Christian based on their joy, gentleness, kindness, unconditional love, warmth, behavior, action, and much more. Even non-Christians have, on many different occasions, testified that sister/brother so and so must have Jesus in her/his life. This man or woman must have been with the Lord because the natural sinful individuals do not always treat others with love, compassion, and grace. It is important that unbelievers see good Christian deeds being displayed in front of them so the they can not only acknowledge that there is a God who reigns on the throne of our hearts but also they will feel attracted to worship our God. Montes Estinphil
In response to Montes’s question of whether “there is such a thing like a propensity in certain individual DNA to accept Christ or the idea that God can save and will save us while others do not have that tendency?” Well, there is such a theory purported by a theorist in the school of education called Howard Gardner. He subscribes to the theory of Multiple Intelligences where he believes that every individual is somehow born with the propensity to be, for example, musically inclined, or aesthetically inclined etc. Among his list of intelligences is the widely debated spiritual intelligence that suggests that some people are just simply more inclined to spiritual things than others. In essence, this theory discredits salvation as being only available to some and not to others. Thankfully that is not the case and like you, there is also no question in my mind that salvation is available to everyone. Accepting Christ can never be an issue of spiritual intelligences or propensities, otherwise all that Christ did for us on Calvary would have all been in vain. Furthermore, it would imply that certain individuals could be saved on the basis of their own innate spiritual inclinations, thus it would invalidate Christ’s free gift of salvation.
(1) The idea that God died for our human race because we were bearing his image. “He made them (male and female) in a level – at His image- that He can come; when they became sinners He will come down to that level to die for them; if man was lower than that – an animal, He – God could not come to rescue them.”
(2) “God created animals according to their likeness or species that means some places some where in the other galaxies or world those things -species (animals, birds and fish) have already existed or known before our creation; as of man, there was no species like that before the creation of this world.”
Thanks for challenging my thought on these aspects of creation/redemption!
In regards to God’s omniscience, I also hold it to be true that “God knew for sure He had to die billions of years before Adam and Eve creation.” This, to me, speaks boldly of his love. Creating free-willed beings at the cost he knew he would pay one day is a priceless proof of his infinite love.
Comment on Andrew Pileggi’s insert on “Adam and the Human Race in the Writings of Ellen White,” posted on 9/16/2009
“Our first parents did not immediately face judgment because of that mediation, and it is because of that mediation that we too have an opportunity of reconciliation.” I like the reality this though portrays. I am grateful that Christ chose to be our mediator, and that through him we have a chance to reconciliation, rather than facing the consequences we deserve.
“In the end they will be judged according to their choice to accept Christ or reject Him and their works will reflect that choice. The same is true of us today.” I think this is very relevant. Our choice to accept Christ cannot come without transformation. That we need to accept it over, and over, and over again, is true, but every time it bears fruit. Otherwise, if it does not work change in our character towards the likeness of Christ, it is empty and useless.
“It’s not that we were mystically in Adam when he committed the sin, but that we inherited the propensity that he inherited when he fell.” I think a correct understanding of the “in Adam” concept is critical. If we believe that we sinned in Adam in terms of imputation (Adam’s sin was imputed to us), then we’d have to agree with the infant baptism, a symbol for purification from the ancestral sin.
A connection I make with this is the misunderstanding Zwingli and other reforming leaders held in regards to infant baptism, believing that it is a substitute for the OT circumcision. But the mainstream understanding of infant baptism is not that of consecration/dedication to God (which would indeed correspond to circumcision), but a cleansing of the forebears’ sin - which is not biblical. So I think it is critical to understand “in Adam” as propensity for sin, not his sin itself.
In response to Enoch on the reflection of Romans 5. I really like you addressing the necessity of us to die to sin if we are Christians, by putting to death our sin on the cross. How true it is that at baptism we are raised to new life. I also think it is important for us to consider the idea of dying daily (1Cor 15). If not we won’t become slaves to righteousness. I like how you said that His grace enables us to live a life of righteousness. As we really contemplate the significance of Christ and His death, how could we really continue to intentionally sin? One thing that I caught to be challenging in your reflection is when you said “if we take upon ourselves the wages of sin...”. I think that we don’t have much of a choice to take those wages upon us. I believe we have earned those wages and Christ paid for them. The real death we are in danger of is the second death. Thanks bro for your reminder to die to sin and put on righteousness. I agree with you, that I don’t want to continue in this cycle of sin either. I want to be a slave to righteousness too. Come Jesus come.
Responding to Maka on Chapter Five of Whidden’s Book.
First of all I have to say Amen. It is so important that we realize that God is a God of Love, Mercy, and Justice. I like how you highlighted Whidden’s and EGW’s sentiments of the importance of the Great Controversy theme. Without that model, Christians are in want for an explanation for those accusations. Without that theme people explain it away as ‘the mystery of God’, and though it is very mysterious how He loves us so much and has given us His Son, we can still pursue understanding His great plan of Salvation. I also like how you emphasized Christ coming and living obediently to the law so that grace takes the place of the law. To go further, grace takes the place of the law’s accusations against us. Through His obedience, we are seen as perfect in Him.
I think that the questions you asked are very important and will be studied and talked about for as long as this world will lasts. Jesus has given all of us the right to eat at the Tree of Life. But how does it become reality? How do we accept this free gift? By faith in what has already been accomplished by the perfect sacrifice of Christ (atonement) and allowing that sacrifice to change us into His image (works),
I really appreciate the clarity of what you have shared. I also believe, as you do, that it is the individuals’ relationship with Christ and total dependence on Him that will give evidence that our salvation is assured in Him alone. And as you said in your conclusion – this relationship brings true love and joy to the Christians heart. What a motivation to reach all men with the grace of God. We can all have assurance in the free gift of God. Amen. Thanks for sharing Roger!
I agree 100% with you when you say that the Bible states that “God created everything”. This reflection will always result into debates since nobody has the answer. Earth’s creation to some extent is like the mystery of the Caramilk bar. In this case a key question to ask is how the caramel is inserted between the two layers of chocolate. Since it is a man made creation, a visit to the factory will provide us with all the technique. On the other hand when it comes to mother Earth its formation will remain forever a secret, except for God. He is the only one to know when and how it was conceived; how it was all put together. When I think of planet earth many unanswered complex questions come to mind; for instance, how can we have gravity on the land were we live while the earth is floating in space? How were night and day created, just think about the differences between countries time zone? How were formed the sun and the moon? How are the lakes, sea and rivers able to stay confined in specific spaces all over the world without overflowing one country more than another? This priceless space was given to us without any flaws. The Bible contains many answers that we are looking for.
Thanks to studies made by many researchers, scientist and biologist were have a better understanding of the reasons why in biodiversity, the nature, the world of insects, and mammals are all made a certain way. They will never be able to solve this complex puzzle. Nonetheless, even with all these proven facts we will never be able to fully understand everything since God is the only one to have all the answers.
Another complex yet unbelievable creation is the human being. We were formed with all the necessary parts to allow us to be functional: ears to hear, eyes to see, teeth to eat, a brain that interlinks all these elements together. None other than God has this capacity to make such perfect creation. He has created us to his image. I do also believe that we human beings were created for a purpose since God planned things with such thought and precision. Ellen White as you said expresses this thought with well selected words, by saying that (we) are the jewel of creations.
None other than God has given us redemption. Thanks to Him we are given a chance to have a fresh new start.
To conclude I can only say that we must always have a place for God in our hearts. He must always be praised and love for his magnificent work, his goodness and everything that he has given to us. Praise the Lord.
This topic will open many more interesting debates and comments.
All men and women became impure since the day that Adam and Eve decided to take a bite on that forbidden fruit. This fact clearly states that we are all sinners. God is holy and the only one to have escaladed through such heights of perfection. Knowing this fact however does not stop us as persons of doing our best to attain the highest level of goodness of our moral character.
God would like for all of us to be helpful to others, be good listeners, to share; accomplish all these action with the goodness of our hearts. By having this frame of thought and by acting upon I believe that we will get closer and closer to God’s wish.
God is present at all times to lead us in the right direction and help us become better citizens. I also agree your following statement: “that Christ is not talking about a perfection that is strictly meeting the churches standards and condemning those who may not reach there yet. But rather He is talking about having “Perfect Love”. God wants us to accept everybody equally and to have love in our hearts for all. We must remember that we are all on this earth due to His unconditional love. For this reason we must remain faithful and follow his foot steps the best we can. As we grow closer to God and by spreading goodness around us we will approach this state but never obtain it completely since He is the perfect One. Roger Saint-Fleur
Comments on Maka Ta'ufo'ou’s “Romans 3, 4 & 5: Justification by faith.
I liked your comments about Justification by faith. I also agree with you in the fact that sometimes is difficult to understand the main points that Paul tries to present. As you know, Peter commented that Paul’s writings are difficult to understand. It is sad that many people that Paul’s words on justification in wrongly way. There is no excuse for people who profess have accepted Christ to continue in their sins. The same Paul says in 2 Corinthians 5:17 that we are new creatures, the old things passed away. Paul is saying that we are new creatures, we do not need to leave in the way we used to. Another thing that comes to my mind is the fruits of the Spirit which Christ followers need to have. If I continue with a life of sin what I am bearing is the fruits of the flesh. It is really sad that many people misinterpret the Bible. It is our called to share with Christ’s love the truth about salvation with everyone.
Comments on Roger Saint-Fleur’s: “The Assurance of Salvation.”
I think it would be awesome that God somehow show us that our place is assured in heaven. However, God works in ways that He knows will the best for us. We cannot do anything by ourselves to keep the assurance that we are going to be saved. The only thing that we can do is to hold on Jesus in a constant relationship as you said. Jesus said that we need to abide in Him, because without Him we cannot do anything. We need to go Jesus every day and ask Him for the gift of salvation, the robe of His righteousness. We also need to die to self. Like the apostle Paul said: I am crucified with Christ, I do not live, but He lives in me. I liked what you say at the end of you comments, that once we understand the assurance of salvation it should be a joy. It is Jesus who intercedes for us. If everyday we surrender to Him, a peace and joy will filled our hearts. We know that we are walking with Him, and if we stumble and fall, He is there to lift us up to continue in the walk.
It is possible to look at foreknowledge, predestination, calling, justification, and glorification in light of salvation in both a closed and an open view. Looking at the closed box, most of us would agree that humans have very limited choice. Is not our freedom limited anyway? Can we do everything we want to do? Certainly not! Furthermore, human beings can only exercise their freedom of choice to a certain extent or within a certain parameter. To me, that says without a shadow of doubt that we are functioning within a certain boundary and once we would try go over the fence someone else would remind us that we are bound to act in such and such a way within that particular sphere. If one thinks that no one is bound then we can ask the question where else can humans live in God’s universe except on the planet earth. People can go to the moon, mars, Jupiter, Saturn, and other planet, but no has ever inhabited another world and at the same time own a house down here whether Hawaii, Tokyo, or someplace else. We have been traveling within this planet; we were born in it; we are bound to die in it; many generations have gone and will come and find it spinning around unless the Creator stops it. We are bound to many things. In fact, if one takes a closer look at the global village and small community one lives in one will quickly realize that humans are fragile, petit, monotone, and enslaved. Anything happens in the life of human being and that life changes for good will never be the same again. We are often thrilled before supernatural wonders because, in our smallness, we cannot do much without the help from above. We have so much in common and we cannot avoid those commonalities. Sometimes I do not want to use the restroom. Hello! I have to go there because I am human and I cannot be more than a human. We are bound to share joy, pain, strengths, weakness, grief, sickness, death and many other things. We are in a human box made by the Architect of universe. Looking at the open box, no matter how limited it might be, we can make decisions that may have great impact on present and future. One of the blessings and privileges we have been given as intelligent beings is the ability to make a choice for or against our salvation. We can choose where we want to spend one thousand year vacation. We actually choose heaven in choosing to Jesus today and every waking moment of our conscious existence. In other words, as long as we live we have a part to play in favor our salvation with Christ Jesus. That is why with the opening view which makes much better sense for me Jesus says hey! Here is the path to death and the path to life. Go ahead and choose one. “I suggest that you take life because if you do you actually will both in this life and in the one to come.” That freedom is not predestined. I appreciate the comment professor Hanna made in class when he said “for God to be who he says He is he must have created an open universe where there is a possibility of sin, rebellion, and disobedience. When things got chaotic He would bring about solution. Humans are caught in a snare of invisible and visible. We are not totally free as well as we are not totally bound. Montes Estinphil
This is in response to Adelina's post (10/28/2009): I agree with Adelina for most of those who grew up as Adventist phrase "Christ saved the world" means that it is applicable only to those believers who freely choose to believe that his sacrifice saves them but at the same time a believer understands that his faith will have an influence on his life. It wasn't until I heard a phrase "cheap grace" when I came to realization that prevalent understanding among Christians is that Christ sacrifice is applicable to us regardless of what we do. But faith has influence on the believer and this influence have to bring fruit and if it's a genuine faith I believe it will. This way we may say that salvation is conditional, but conditional in the sense that in our helplessness we acknowledge what Christ did for us and our live show results of our faith. By saying that "unconditional salvation" means that one will be saved regardless of ones life fruit I think is like saying that we only focus on one aspect of the full picture. It is a very narrow view it rejects gospels moral influence in our live.
I totally agree with your statement regarding both Ellen White's Christocentric view and the dual nature of Christ. Her views on salvation were like those of Paul. I think when we begin to see what the Spirit was trying to reveal regarding our salvation it would cause many to call it cheap grace. I would say that Ellen and Paul were accused of advocating cheap grace, but they weren't the ones who got it wrong.
I see what you're saying about the passive and active faith. When you really think about it, even with our active faith it is as though we don't do anything. Using your same example from Exodus 14. The passive faith was believing God would fight, the active faith is walking through the Red Sea. In the end, the only thing we had to do was walk by faith on the path prepared for us.
Commenting on Montes' post regarding "...foreknowledge, predestination, calling, justification, and glorification..."
I appreciate your approach in that you tried a middle ground when assessing the subject. However, if we keep the subject as you concluded, "humans are caught in a snare of invisible and visible. We are not totally free as well as we are not totally bound," I'm afraid the issue of a closed future will forever remains with us.
I understand your position when you cite our limited freedom in exploring the worlds beyond ours. I think this is due to the problem of sin. We're trapped on this planet because its the only one that chose to rebel!
On the other hand, if we do not possess absolute freedom of choice, then there is a contradiction in God. How? If God says that He is love by nature, then he must permit absolute freedom since love by definition necessitates free will. Unlimited freedom of choice must be granted to us, otherwise, God cannot be just and righteous in his dealing with mankind. I'm afraid on this point, either/or is unavoidable!
Alright my brother, just thought I'd share my humble thoughts with you!
Response: #4 To brother Andre Anderson on Chapter 12 – That’s a good mixture.
You’re quite true on reminding us of what Paul have experienced in his Christian journey. As a sinner I am inclining to do what I know I should not do. And what I should do I am inclining not to do. This prompts me again to reevaluate my Christian walk as sometimes I feel that I have no hope at all. At times I realize that I preoccupy myself with school work and forget to spend more time with God and revive myself spiritually.
I am glad that you’ve brought up the question of whether we “should give up or should we continue to struggle?” You added on, what are we going to do when we struggle with sin then we ask for forgiveness but then we find ourselves returning back to sinning again? You’ve provided the right answer and we are fortunate that we have our advocate to stand on our behalf every time we fall into sin. And once we realized our sinfulness and truly repent and confess, sure Jesus is listening and He stands on our behalf to plea for us.
I just want to add on to the truth that you’ve shared if you don’t mind. As we struggle with our sins and continue to plea for grace there is tendency that we can grow spiritually stronger every day. Once we are justified we grow in His mercy and as we grow we are sanctified and we are perfected as we constantly allowing the Holy Spirit to take control of our lives. I can suggest that may be when we grow and struggle upward in our spiritual journey, there may be less returning to our sinful habit. I am not saying that Paul is wrong, no, we incline to do what we should not do but as we become stronger spiritually the less tendency for us to go back and commit the same thing over and over again. For the fact is that God is taking control of our lives.
Response: #5 To Enoch Brownell – Reflection of Romans 1:5.
“Through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name’s sake.”
I am delighted about this text for I have been blinded for a long time. I felt the same way in appreciating what I’ve learned so far in this course. I accepted that we are justified by faith but at the same time God will judge us according to our deeds so it was difficult to reconcile these two. The Bible is very clear about them and obviously we cannot deny or ignore one and claim that the other is the true way of salvation. This verse came with the solution that both are right, both are need for salvation.
I agree with what you’ve reminded us about faith. There are two forms that we need to understand clearly. One is passive faith in which many people that we are justified by passive only. In other words, it is all in the mind and trust God and then let God do the rest. It seems that once we are justified, we do not play any part at all. However there is influence in the faith that we have which prompt the believer to respond to God. We are vulnerable though to the danger of falling to believing justification by work. But how we can reconcile what the Bible is teaching, therefore there is active faith as the second form you’ve mentioned.
You’ve given very plain examples of both forms of faith and I think that is sufficient for believers not to be bias and take one side only but to clarify all proof from the Bible. Faith is passive when we accept Christ as our Saviour. As Romans 1:5 says, “ we have received grace . . . to bring about obedience of faith . . . .” SDABC. vol 6. says, “Faith means rather that habit and attitude of mind by which the Christian shows his loyalty and devotion to Christ and his dependence on Him. Such faith produces obedience.” Once we are justified and depends on God, the passive faith becomes active faith. Passive faith produces obedience. Paul is very clear that his message is to bring about the obedience that springs from faith. I am glad that you’ve reminded us today.
Response: #6 To: Lenora D. Muse – Reflection #4: How Perfect is Perfect? OR Is Christian Perfection Possible?
Thank you Lenora for informing us of Mathew 5:48 “Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” Of course the question arises as: How can we be perfect? How can we be perfect while Paul is telling us that: “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.” Romans 3:23. “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.” Romans 5:12. So if we are all sinned and fall short of the glory of God, then how can Matthew tells us that we have to be perfect? This sounds like the Bible is not coodinating and any writer can write whatever comes to his mind. But you have dealt with this in a way that leads us to more understanding.
Although the word “perfection” will be welcomed by some Christians while some will argue that none of us whatsoever can be perfect. As you’ve mentioned that there is failure in the understanding of what the Bible teaches on the nature of sin and perfection. That misleads people to take sides and fight over these two issues claiming that one is right while the other is wrong. I really like the way you present your solution for the matter. This is a misconception on the application of perfection in place of sinlessness. Perfection and sinlessness are two different things. And rightly so all of us sinned and still we can be perfect.
According to Dr Hanna’s lecture on September 09, 09 in which I was very impressed with his approach. Perfection comes in every stage. Once we accept Christ by faith we are justified. His grace promt us to grow even though we are sinners. This is then the process of sanctification. We progress and process in perfection. We are perfected on the way up as we grow under God’s grace. However it is not like the perfectionists’ view that they arrive at a point where perfection is achieved and there plateau until glorification. No, we struggle and grow upward until our glorification when our sinful nature be removed.
You’ve said it, that we look to Jesus for our perfection and the presence of the Holy Spirit in our lives gives us victory and we can be perfect as we grow. In addition, I like your endorsement of what Heppenstall said: “Surrender to Christ must be maintained day by day.” You said: “But I am incline to believe that it takes a minute by minute in this world for surrendering to Christ.” I am with you on this. I believe a day is too much of a gap for me as a sinner to grow. I can agree with living for Christ moment by moment. That will give me more chance fo growing higher and higher. Thank you sister for the reminder.
Comments on Adelina’s Posting Paper: The Nature of Christ and Salvation written by Ellen White.
I must start by saying that this is a topic that can create a lively, healthy, discussion. Once again we find ourselves in front of another God’s wonderful manifestation of love. Christ, as God, allows himself to be so close, in touch with human beings in order to give his life to rescue them from eternal death. Being fully God and fully human, he was able to put himself in people’s shoes in order to understand the feelings and tribulations human beings are going through. He knows and sees how sin evolves and how it takes place in the midst of God’s creature. He is able to connect closely with us. This task had to be done by a godly being such as the one and only Christ. As mentioned in the comments above “He had to be divine and possess a sinless humanity in order to accomplish His role of justifying Savior.” Coming on earth was a necessary exposure for Him to understand men’s state. His power allowed Him to understand men’s sins without falling into temptation. It is through this inner control, His understanding of the human kind and actions that He is recognized as the divine. I agree with Whidden’s comment when he says that “He was enough like us to identify Himself with our infirmities.” He is the only one who can feel our pain, sadness, joy, problems, uncertainties and sins. This is a powerful strength that cannot be underestimated. Being touched by sin, but not being infected with it, is an astonishing force that gives Him the capacity to have a better understanding, to help us, to come to our rescue and make us understand our wrong doings. Because of the way that He was conceived, He is able to understand us, forgive and give us second chances. His love is holy and whole. As mentioned by Ellen “Christ could have done nothing during His earthly ministry in saving fallen man if the divine had not been blended with the human”. This in depth analysis of men allows him to know how to react and come in help to all. Each case is dealt with care and understanding due to the fact that we are all different. Thanks to Christ we are always able to see a light at the end of the tunnel and keep the hope, for a better life for each an every one of us, alive. Christ, Son of man, was conceived by God in such a way for men and women to have an opportunity to be saved and have a chance to redeem them. This is what we call a God of love. My views in relation to the context of sinful and corrupt nature will continue to occupy my thoughts. This is a challenging yet very interesting topic.
My comments on Faith to Salvation to Faith written by Valmy Stephen Karemera.
I believe that a special moment must be allocated to read God’s message. Quality time must be set aside. The Bible must be read when we are in a calm state of mind. I agree with you when you say that “faith does not originate with man, but comes from God”. With faith God has given us the ability to believe and have hope. This precious gift is not cultivated at its full capacity. It can be nourished by hearing, reading and believing in God’s words.
Passive faith can be understood in the action of Jesus knocking at the door of the heart of a person and the response of that person opening his heart to Jesus. In revelation 3: 20 Jesus said: “Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.” When this level of faith in God is obtained our inner faith blooms like a flower and gives us a sense of calm and well being. “Passive faith is an inward human response to divine revelation”. This is a result of having love for God and understanding of Him. As you said “It is an opening of one heart to the voice of God”.
Saving faith is the trust that people put in the message of the Gospel. “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.” Ephesians 2:8 This Salvation by Faith proclaims that God is merciful to all those who believe that Jesus died for them. In John 3: 36a it says that “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life.” In Hab 2:4 it says that “The just shall live by faith”.
When someone reaches this level of joy and comfort it is so intense that it must be shared with others through action. This is called active faith. This inner joy is shared with family and friends by communicating God’s words of wisdom. Positive actions done daily to help our fellow men in distress also keep faith alive. As you said “Faith without work is dead”. I see that faith is developed and acquired by going through steps. From faith to Salvation to faith is not so easy to interpret, but with the support of bible verses one can arrive to a step by step interpretation and understanding of that topic. Roger Saint-Fleur
Thank you Roger Saint-Fleur for having commented on passive and active faith the way you did. This type of thinking generates ideas in my mind that I would like to share based on faith that can be both active and passive. “Positive actions done daily to help our fellow men in distress also keep faith alive.” It sounds like when we do good things in the community our faith remains alive. Is there any room to make a difference between good deeds and righteous ones? In reality, God initiates faith in the life of the believers and at that moment such faith is passive and remains passive due to the fact that the sinner cannot save himself. However, when we respond to the Gospel our response makes our faith active. What I mean is that whenever faith is active to God it is passive to us and whenever faith is passive to God is active to us. Does that mean that God, at times, does not act on our behalf? It simply means that God appeals to us and awaits our response. If the sinner does say “yes” to the Gospel then it is as though did not exist. It takes God’s love and the sinner’s love to make salvation possible. What do we mean when we say positive actions keep faith alive and well? Stopping a pedophile from entering a church building where we have so many kids is a positive action; putting asleep someone a professional murderer is positive action; blowing a missile on the Taliban before they blow up a community of thousands of people is a positive action; sponsoring a few third world country children to school is a positive action. It seems that positive actions do not necessarily imply righteous ones. Doing good things alone cannot justify a solid Christian soldier. The heart needs to take part in that act based on faith in Christ. Doing good hast to match being good. Because everything that is good comes from God then being a good person gives birth to good deeds. In other words, a Christ like minded person wills what Christ would have done Himself given the same situation. Positive actions done day by day does not necessarily indicate that one has a saving faith in God. People of no faith help in our community a lot and sometimes more than those who have faith.
We were like sheep wandering away if though there were no shepherd, but Christ came on our rescue. We were far from being perfect. If we were perfect we would not need a Savior. No matter what we do our perfection lies in Christ Jesus. He is the only one standing without taint or spot. In other words, He is the only spotless lamb that ever lived on earth. Jesus’ work must carry on via Holy Spirit and human agency. I am persuaded that message of perfection is only making sense when it is associated to the blood of the Lamb slain since the foundation of the world. Yes, we can be perfect, but in Christ. The only way we can meet the same standard as unfallen Adam is to let Christ into our life day by day, moment by moment, and hour by hour. Only by perfect obedience the requirement of justification, sanctification, and glorification can be met to make our election sure. Obedience through faith can facilitate the condition to the real transformation that will to heavenward to meet Jesus. Faith is not blind. It comes with evidence and action for the conviction of both believers and none believers. There is no stiff-necked head with an obedience child. It is said a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith in Jesus. And that faith, once more, can be both passive and active depending on whose turn to act: the sinner or God. No matter how much we pinch in God remain the author and finisher of our faith. God initiated it all. He came up the idea of salvation and since then has never lived His people nor forsakes them. We are perfect in Christ. Now does it mean that rescue us from all propensities to sin since He makes holy we can stand before God as though we had not sinned?
Responding to Nathan Hellman's comment on Justification and Sanctification. I totally agree with you bro. Faith has both an active and passive element. I think of Paul admonishing the Romans to walk after the Spirit. As we remain in relationship with God, we remain justified and He cleanses us. It's all about walking with the Spirit. This is obviously active. As we walk, God continues to reveal Himself and His plan to us, which transform our characters and empower to continue walking. However, we must choose to follow Him. If we do choose to follow, then He supplies the strength.
I am responding to the presentation on Romans 7 in class on November 18th. Why can't we say that Paul is describing Himself in this passage? It sounds to me that Paul is describing a struggle that we can all relate to, from the spiritual babe to the spiritual man. It's hard for us to think that Paul could be referring to himself in this passage probably because we believe that Paul himself had overcome; but was Paul perfect? Could it be that he still had some inner struggles? Notice in chapter 7 that he uses the tenth commandment, which for the most part happens within you. I believe that Paul is describing the condition of a Christian engaged in spiritual warfare, and he is voicing the frustration we all experience when submitting ourselves wholly to God.
This is a short comment on Andrew Pillegi post. I agree with Andrew that in our beliefs we are approving the 1888 message but practice looks different. Although there are different views on this matter among church members and adventists scholars the lack of consensus certainly doesn't help. Calling others who see things differently or calling them liberal is not an answer to the problem as well. I hope that very soon we (maybe Atlanta) we will be able to discuss relation between theological principals and practical gospel. David Polok
I really like Roger's post. Just like you I believe that evangelism is integral part of the doctrine of salvation. Certainly Ellen White would also agree with you. You also pointed very well to several theological reasons why it is so. Indeed throughout the Bible we can see God's longing for salvation of human beings. So to be saved also means to follow his desire towards salvation of humanity. You're right that because of general movement to trivialize sin we need to often point out the sin, which definitely have a place in evangelism to. And finally definitely knowing Christ is more then a just a concept, it is a life changing reality (or should be), there is a place for charts and theories but we should focus on the most important. David Polok
A Response to Roger on ‘Salvation Hand in Hand with Evangelism’
This was an excellent reflection on the importance of evangelism in light of all that we have been learning this semester. I like what you said about the doctrine of salvation joining with others in evangelism. I think that it is so true that in this day sin is trivialized and thus grace is trivialized and seen as all that is necessary for salvation. Grace costed so much! It’s moral influence should change the life of the believer. Which leads me to resonate with another point you made, that we need Christ. We are not saved by a chart or formula, we are saved by Christ. I also appreciate the fact that you pointed out that salvation’s message is universal. We must not let prejudice or bigotry stand in the way of allowing the everlasting gospel reach the lost. The one place that I would differ with you is that I think that we are not (yet) the last church with the great commission. I have heard many evangelical preachers stress the importance of carrying the gospel to the ends of the earth. blessings, Nathan Hellman
Thank you for being transparent and sharing a testimony of your struggles with this issue. It’s interesting that when perfection is presented non-biblically, then it causes all sorts of struggles and even abandonment because the bar is set so unreachably high. You hit the point when you said that the bible never equates perfection with sinlessness. I suppose that it would though as it refers to Christ, but for the believer our only hope is in Him. You stressed the importance of looking to Christ minute by minute, which enables the Holy Spirit to work in us. This is so good and true. I have experienced in my walk an overcoming of sin as I look to Christ, not to myself. It seems that the moment we take our eyes off of the Perfect one, we start to backslide and forget our true condition and need. This has been an encouragement to me to share the important scriptural view of perfection in light of Christ’s perfection. Thanks!
I am commenting on Nathan Hellman's "With the Universe as Witness"
I appreciate your thoughts, Nathan. Having grown up in Christianity, it is easy to forget how strange and paradoxical our faith must seem to outsiders. Truly it is "foolishness" from the world's point of view, as Paul says. I remember being struck by this (how strange and backwards our faith really is) a few years ago, while reading Philip Yancey's "The Jesus I Never Knew" (about his being raised Christian, but never seeing the actual Christ because of all the 'stuff' we build around our faith). It just struck me how crazy it is what we beleive. A strong God willingly made weak? Condescending to his rebellious enemies? God dying? Us glorifying an event of torture, shame, and humiliation, and showing it to children? And these are the upstanding members of society? Since then I've always tried to keep my faith fresh, keep it from falling into a rut. I remember I started an academy chapel talk once with the presupposition that buildings had all sorts of torture devices placed on top of them, giving them tribute, and how weird that would be. What God did is so profound for us largely because it is backwards. We will never understand it fully. We will never understand how strength was displayed in weakness, how love was displayed in the midst of mockery, blood, pride, and politics. But God did it. And we owe our lives to it. Our eternal appreciation will only grow as we learn more about it through eternity. And, the 2nd point, I was intrigued by what you said about Jesus death NOT being an active act on God's part (or something like that, you quoted an author you had been reading). It struck me as the opposite of what I had just read in Whidden's book (that we're reading for this class), chapter 5. It gave me a question mark in my brain, because I had just shortly before been convinced of the opposite. But pretty quick you were back onto things I could agree with, and appreciated deeply. I'd be interested to hear what you think in the light of Whidden's chapter on EGW and the atonement. Not that I believe it should have to change your mind. I'm just interested to see how you'd balance the two.
I am responding to Pohlmarc O. Lawrence's "Follow up on Communication of Salvation" Ha! You gave me something new to think about! It really tickled me, because I was a psychology minor in undergraduate, yet had never considered these various models in context with the different stages of moral development (also models/theories). Thank you for the brain candy! Yes, atonement (and the means by which God accomplished/accomplishes it) is a deep thing that we are all struggling to get our minds around. The crazy/beautiful thing is that it works on several different levels! Some might appeal to "higher" or "more noble" worldviews, while others are much more "basic" or "rudimentary", but they all work! And the obvious fact is that it's not our conception of the cross which saves us. It's the fact that it (itself) is what saves us is what's important. But God wants to lead us along in understanding. And he makes it accessible at every stage of life. It's like Jesus said, we have to accept Grace as a child. Children live in a world of grace and it makes sense to them that God extends it like their parents do (they can never 'deserve' food or a bed anyway). As we progress to adulthood, our religion runs the risk of getting tripped up if our understandings to not mature along with our worldview. But it works all the way through, which is profound. There are possibilities for misunderstanding all the way through, too, no doubt. But that is why God says to us "Come, let us reason together" Isaiah 1:18.
I am responding to rodrigogaliza's comment from December 1 at 8:00 (it didn't have a title)
Yes, the Gospel has been expressed in many different times and ways through history, and it has always had to be made relevant/contextualized for the audience receiving it. (This could even explain why God appears so different in, say, the pentateuch, vs. in the gospel accounts). But, yes, the media by which the Gospel is communicated, and the 'baggage' that necessarily comes with it based on how it is communicated is a concern. We westerners love to make it high intellectual content (i.e. a lot of reading and reasoning), but we've got to remember that a lot of the world puts the highest value on experience (let us not forget that the original encounters with Christ were all experiential! No explanation is given, for example, for how it happened, or what Peter thought of it when he got to walk on water a couple steps). I, too, have been concerned on the 'sensationalism' of the media, and how incompatible it seems to be with the message of self-sacrifice, slowness, and sincerity that God espouses. In the last 200 years (less, even?), the world has taken on a different pace than it ever had before. The question is, can the Gospel overcome this hurdle, and still be heard in all the 'noise' of the world?! Two good aspects of modern technology is that it does bring us back to a sense of 'experience'. When Jesus first did miracles, people didn't read about it, people saw it! And now through programs, people can see 'Jesus' doing these things, probably very similarly to what the original audience saw. (The one draw-back here is the knowledge that one is actually watching actors and special effects that can ruin the experience). The other benefit is that it can get all the way around the world quickly now. If something big happens in India, we know about it the same day. This means that the Gospel can be spread quickly (Matt. 24:14). It also means that an Antichrist power can get it's message around the world quickly. But this is what we expect anyway! I look forward to the day when we will be reunited in Heaven with those who have gone before, who have had a totally different conception of faith. Some will know hardly any of the Bible stories! I look SO forward to the debriefing afterwards. We will learn for an eternity of God, his goodness, and the plan of salvation!
I am responding to Andrew Pileggi, in his 'Ellen White stood alone on her views of justification by faith before 1888' comment. Yes, it's funny how we really tend to fall off one side of the path (legalism), or the other (easy grace) constantly. It's amazing to me that early SDAs could be so against justification by faith, when there's so much of it in the NT! I've heard it said time and again that we are the only religion that even has a concept of grace. In Islam, I believe salvation is based on whether your good works outweigh your bad. Judaism certainly has a concept of forgiveness (look at all the great forgiveness verses in the OT). But as far as I know, we are the only religion that says "salvation is not about us achieving our way up to God, rather, it is about God condescending to us." So we say "grace", but we still really think 'works' a lot of the time because that's how we're wired in this world. Our relationship with parents, community, job, all come from a 'works' orientation. We're soaked in it from the moment we're born. It's sad how some really don't trust God enough, and turn legalistic (Paul refers to this in Galatians), but it's also sad what people justify doing in the name of grace! Paul actually says "their condemnation is deserved" in reference to people who try to justify continuing to sin based on God's grace. Some versions of grace go to far. I was in an elementary classroom at a lutheran school once, and I saw a classroom poster contrasting law and grace. It said that law brought things like death, a heart of stone, a judgmental character, etc., while grace brought redemption, forgiveness, kindness, etc. Some people really villify the law! But my question is to them, what about all of David's proclamations that the Law brings life, it is a source of joy to him, etc.?! Many many affirmations of the Law in the OT, but many 'grace-ers' want to throw it out. My second question is, why would God have given it, if it was so horrible? I know, I know, a mirror, to show us our sin, depravity, and bring us to repentance. But if it serves only this purpose, then dozens of generations lived knowing only the 'mirror', but with no concept of the real solution! It is clear to me then the law is for more than looking at and evaluating ourselves on. It is to be followed to the best of our ability. It's all through the NT, too. "Dear children, I write this to you so that you may not sin. But if you do sin, there is one who speaks to the father in our behalf - Jesus Christ, the righteous one." There it is. Praise God for Jesus! He lived as our example, died as our substitute. We should model our lives off of him, based on the love and attraction we feel for him, and the thankfulness we have for having received the offer of salvation.
I appreciate you bringing salvation at a personal level. Also, I find your reference from Reid’s book significant: ‘He went to the place we really belong’- that place being utter separation from God.” I think I’ve never thought of this particular aspect in this way, or with this connection. It makes me realize that our life would have looked like without God – or better said, lack of life. Which makes me remember a statement I read once in a book (but I can’t recall the title now), that goes something like this: “God is life, and sin is separation from God; therefore our sin, our choice to separate ourselves from God has as natural consequence death.” God is life, and as we separate from Him, the result is death. I also like how the Father is presented in a positive light.
Comment on Rodrigo Galiza’s blog posted on 12-01-09
I appreciate Rodrigo looking at salvation from the perspective of communication.“As the manner of communication changed (media), the perception of reality also changed (message), including man perception of a plan of salvation,” he relevantly says. The reference to iconography versus Bible in the Middle Ages as something that made people see God primarily as transcendent makes sense to me. It also makes sense that the personal use of Bible would bring God closer to us individually, and His immanence is better understood. Also, very interesting further remarks on how the individualism has been exaggerated, to the point that in our age, we are faced with the problem that he very well raises: “How have Adventism dealt with this trend in Christianity to make very individualistic the gospel?” I can’t add anything to this as far as answers, but I appreciate this blog, as it made me think about certain aspects I had not considered before. I will definitely ponder over this for a while.
In response to "The Complex Nature of the Incarnate God" by Nathan Hellman.
I agree with your observation. The nature of Christ remains a hot potato within Adventism. As you pointed out, it is important that we approach this issue more comprehensively rather than restrictively. The paradox over nature of Christ hinges on two points:
1. The human element of Christ. Was it before the fall or after fall? 2. The nature of temptation. Was he tempted like we are (as Paul says in Hebrews) or because of his divinity somehow his temptation was different from ours?
In my humble view, this is where the issue lies in this Christological debate over the nature of Christ.
Montes asks "It is possible to look at foreknowledge, predestination, calling, justification, and glorification in light of salvation in both a closed and an open view?"
It might be logically possible but not sure if Biblically it can. But even my statement here is illogical because really whatever is Biblical is logical.
Closed view assumes a classical philosophical presuppositions -- timelessness of God. This greatly inhibits a clear view of the order of salvation.
I’d like to add a new twist to the creation-redemption debate especially from Adelina’s response to Max. The uniqueness of man in all of God’s creation speaks volume about God’s intentionality in making man “in His own image”. God intended from the very beginning to have a relationship with man that would be different from His other creation. The introduction of sin cut short the face to face, but God was not about to let Go. Hence, the plan for the redemption of man was set in motion. We cannot read God’s mind David said but the evidence is there in scripture that because man bears God’s image, He would do anything to restore it. The bottom line for God is not to lose a part Himself. Calvary is there to prove how far He’s willing to go.
I’d like to add a new twist to the creation-redemption debate especially from Adelina’s response to Max. The uniqueness of man in all of God’s creation speaks volume about God’s intentionality in making man “in His own image”. God intended from the very beginning to have a relationship with man that would be different from His other creation. The introduction of sin cut short the face to face, but God was not In Response to Nathan and Valmy on the nature Christ, I would like to suggest Millard Erickson book Christian Theology. There he parses the issues of a pre fall/post fall with great depth. The importance of His humanity will never be over stated. But for Christ humanity, justification would be impossible and there starts the dominos effect in the order of salvation. His Divinity never supplied Him with any supernatural strength that is not available to us today. What differentiates Christ to the rest of humanity is the ability with which he stayed in constant contact with the father. His nature was like ours; however, his superiority to obey His father’s will far surpasses ours.
70 comments:
1. Commenting on:
"I have been saved; I am being saved; I will be saved."
Scripture speaks profoundly on this topic. Writing to the church of Corinth, Apostle Paul says, "I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which ye have RECEIVED, and wherein ye STAND; By which also ye are SAVED..." (1 Cor. 15:1-2 KJV). The past, present, and future salvation are all mentioned in this particular text. As long as we "abide" in Christ, the assurance of salvation is guaranteed! Caution must be exercised here. We must not confuse this assurance of salvation with the doctrine of election, which when pressed to its logical end breeds once saved always saved!
2. Commenting on:
"Once one is sanctified that individual is automatically perfect."
This is beautifully stated. It captures the very words when Paul says, "By one offering, he [Christ] has perfected forever them that are being sanctified." Heb. 10:14. Justification and Sanctification occur simultaneously! We can look at the thief on the cross, surely, when Christ assured him of eternal life, justification and sanctification (which is perfection at every stage) proceeded immediately and simultaneously!
Valmy Stephen Karemera
Thank you Valmy Stephen for having brought out this Biblical text. Yeah, no thinking person, I think, in their right mind can not translate Hebrews 10:14 to say that once saved is always saved. The author, I believe, uses the past perfect tense indicating that Salvation has, to imitate him, taken place sometime ago and continues to take place as we speak. David never failed to acknowledge the God of the Old Testament as the God of his salvation. Furthermore, The author makes mention of being perfect forever and that, in my understanding, refers to that great day when the saints will be marching on, when the morning star will shine from east to west and north to south, and when the tribe of the lion of Judah will burst the cloud of the sky to come and take his children home, the glorious day or the day of glorification. What a great passage? Another big idea I would like to bring out of this passage is the idea of “those who are being sanctified” to indicate that the work of salvation is still in progress. See, I am glad the Lord is not through with me and for this I am eternally grateful. It occurs to me that in this passage alone that work of salvation which has been, is, and will be, is very obvious.
Talking about justification and sanctification, which one happened in the Christian life first?
Montes Estinphil
This suggestion is on the anonymous,
That person is talking that Salvation is from the Lord as well as perfection, and it proceed to say that a person needs to sanctify first; however, I believe Justification is the first thing someone received. As to concern about anything involved Salvation, I think you have nothing to do. God does everything! The only thing you have to do is open your heart when Holy Spirit knocking.
You said also, Salvation has been around since Eternity and will be around throughout ceaseless ages. I’m 100 percent agree with that because salvation is a part of God before the creation of the world, God knows for sure the human race is going to sin that He made provision for them; in case or when they became sin that He would died for them. I believe also when we get to New Heaven and the New Earth, we will eat the tree of life to live.
We talked in class about ‘whatever is not faith is sin.’ Romans 14:23 seems to be talking about eating food without wondering whether the food is clean or not. If someone has any doubts on some kind of food then do not eat. When eating, we believe that the food will nourish our body and not kill us. If we believe otherwise then it is better not to eat because we are doing something we have no faith in and therefore our conscience will be at peace. Whatever one distrusts should not be done. This is presumptions. Is this faith the same as having faith in Jesus’ righteousness? Or just having faith in merely food? I guess it can be both. Whether we exercise faith in God or in a thing it is faith. Putting faith in a thing would be thing which God approves of – a godly thing. In other words, we believe in doing something that Jesus would have done. I was wondering whether or not the text was well chosen since I saw it emphasize more on the idea of eating something clean at first glance. It is well taken. More power to you Dr.hanna!
Montes Estinphil
Thank you Pohlmarc for pointing out that salvation is multifaceted. A holistic approach will embrace such a view because we are saved every move we make in Jesus and salvation has not changed since the time we have accepted it. We also discussed in class that there are many kinds of salvations: deliverance, protection, healing, cleaning, restoration, adoption, victory in Jesus, and many more. I do not think I am fully en agreement that all those ways mentioned above are different facet of salvation because why would Jesus restore my life without bringing healing, peace, deliverance, cleansing to my soul? I am more inclined to think that salvation is package that comes with all different goodies we have mentioned in class. Vindication, healing, birth, education, and others are the results or outcomes of salvation. It is like a Christian without the fruits of the Spirit is not a Christian. Salvation without peace and love to all is not salvation. No matter the form or shape it may take, salvation = Jesus.
Montes Estinphil
I want to comments on Montes Estinphil suggestions that
“Romans 2:11contrasts, in my thinking, the idea that God has been slowly leading humankind to repentance. Reason being, it says “There is no partiality in God”. My question is why would He lead me to repentance and bypass my next door neighbor? How much my personal choice is important in that process of salvation?”, According to my understanding, the Bible also said, "God loved Jacob, but hated Esau" Rom 9.13 , and Exodus 10:1 has a curious statement: “Then the Lord said to Moses, ‘Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials, so that I may perform miraculous signs of mine among them.’” What the Bible really said is that, if the Lord called you and you are working in His way that your heart is softened by Holy Ghost, but if you are refusing when is knocking then your heart is hardened day by day. In a sense, I’m completely agree with you on that statement, “Paul says those who die with the law will judge with the law and those who die without the law will judge with the law.” However, we as people need to know there is no sin if you don’t know.
I want to comments on Infinite reflection!
I believe the faith in Romans 1:18 is talking about that is the faith of God. The righteousness that comes from God or the righteousness that acceptable to God that was revealed and manifested in the death of Christ; however, I agree with passive faith assessment - from faith to faith- it is the Gospel who moves from one generation to another or from one people to another. As you know, the Bible of the Apostles was the Old Testament. The same message of the Old Testament is the one we are preaching up to now but upgrade to New Testament.
The Bible said, Man could never conceive or attain to this divine righteousness by his own unaided reason and philosophy. The just should live by faith – permanent faith-in what Christ has already done for them.
Thank you all for posting, I have read all comments posted and I appreciate the different approaches on what God does for the salvation of mankind. However, how do you read Romans 1:26? The text explicitly says “God gave them up.” How do we reconcile that with what Pierre says God is no respecter of person? Is there a limit to what he is willing to do to save? What would make him give up? Anyone may try at answering these intriguing questions.
In the article, “Adam and the Human Race in the Writings of Ellen White,” Angel Manuel Rodriguez summarizes the fall of Adam and what it caused. There were immediate results from the fall, but some of the judgments were immediate delayed because Christ stepped in as our mediator. Our first parents did not immediately face judgment because of that mediation, and it is because of that mediation that we too have an opportunity of reconciliation. I really like how the judgment is explained by using the example of our first parents. The Bible tells us that we will all be judged according to our works, but that seems to contradict justification by faith. However, if we understand it in context of what happened to Adam and Eve then it makes perfect sense. After they sinned, Adam and Eve were shown the way back to God through Christ and it was their choice to accept or reject Him. In the end they will be judged according to their choice to accept Christ or reject Him and their works will reflect that choice. The same is true of us today, if we have accepted Christ our life will reflect that choice, it will be evident whether or not we have made Him our salvation and for all who choose Him the perfect record of the Son is placed over ours.
Another point was made concerning how humanity fell in Adam. It’s not that we were mystically in Adam when he committed the sin, but that we inherited the propensity that he inherited when he fell. When he fell, we fell. Through the one transgression we all became transgressor because Adam was our representative. This fact is beautiful because of what follows. In Romans 5:19 Paul says that through Adam we all fell, but in Christ we were all made righteous. We all believe that we are sinners because of the singular act of Adam in the Garden of Eden. Why do we believe this? Because the Scripture is clear on this topic. It would seem a bit unfair that we inherited this fallen nature, guilt and destruction through one man, even though we were not there. However, salvation occurs the same way. Therefore, we need to begin to place our faith in Christ rather than Adam. As Adam was our representative, so now Christ has became our representative. This is a wonderful truth, because it teaches the simplicity of the Gospel. Choose Christ and everything and become and inherit what He has provided rather than Adam and what resulted from his fall, it’s a choice; a no-brainer.
I want to comment on Andrew Pileggi observation.
I believe when the Bible said faith and work, they are the same thing. By example, the Bible said Abraham’s or rehab’s faith or that of any other heroes of faith honored in Heb 11. By faith they obeyed the work Christ will do for them. In the commentary, if someone goes to church on name only, without a personal witness that reflects the ministry of Christ on their behalf, are, as it were, mere corpses.
I agreed with you with Adam’ humanity, if he did not sin, may be Lucifer might not come back; however, he was creating with propensity, and God will punish us for our sins not Adam’s sins.
Response to Valmy’s Post #2
The idea of possessing a broad, holistic understanding of the issues of Salvation is quite necessary and is welcome. This may solve to some extent the ongoing tensions concerning various aspects of Salvation and in my opinion create new ones.
This sort of dialectic, inclusiveness is limited in what it will be able to accomplish. While I do not deny that arguing that water is just oxygen or on the other hand just hydrogen (read Christ’s nature pre-lapsarian vs. post-lapsarian etc) is quite unnecessary. This is not true about all issues. There are those where the “either/or” model MUST be used. One cannot be inclusive and synthesizing forever, since, we agree, I hope that truth is not relative. This is true with certain aspects of Salvation as well. It is EITHER, We are all born to die until we are infant-baptised (referring to one shade of original sin) OR we are not. We are can EITHER be on an upward growth to perfection OR plateau in our experience and claim perfection already.
My point is that the “inclusive” model (if I may call it that’) is limited and at some points is not so inclusive. It should at some point be non-inclusive, or else we may as well convert to Hinduism where everything is sufficiently holistic and conveniently inclusive.
Montes
I want to thank Max for expressing his passion based on what has been written. As I read this input, two things strike me and here they are: Justification is the first thing that happens to the believer and the other one is salvation is a part of God.
Sanctification and justification are so mingled, so close, and so friendly that one does not go anywhere without the other. Once you see one then the other is present also. In other words, you cannot be justified without being sanctified and vice-et-versa.
I wish you could have expounded a little bit more on the idea that salvation is a part of God. Once I saw your thought, the thought came to me then “who can save”? Salvation is from the Lord. No one else can save. He is the only one who has the ability to grant us salvation. To me, He is salvation. Off course, He is everything one think of: He is the rock, the shield, the fortress, protector, and so forth and so on. He is the Savior; He is not just a part of salvation; He is more than just a piece of salvation; He is salvation.
Montes Estinphil
I want to comments on Montes suggestion of Romans. When the Bible said, people without law; basically, the Bible refers to 10 Commandments sometimes the Old Testament. There are a lot of sins who were not part of the 10 Commandments or Old Testament. God has been talking in different ways and different manners even without the Law a person could see there is a God. I agree with you in that assessment “No society can progress without law. There would be chaos and upheavals day after day; week after week and all the time.” Do we (Theologians students)think when we go to heaven there will be Law? That we will have free will! If that is true, how God knew that we will not sin again.
I want to comment on Lenard,
In Romans 1: 16, Paul was talking about that He was not ashamed of the Gospel -the Incarnation, the exemplary Life, the death and resurrection of Christ. The Gospel has 4 interpretations – Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, the interpretations of the Gospel was not inspired; however, they were written by the inspired people.
I agree with you in Romans 10:10, mouth confession came after the Gospel has been received by the heart that is inward change.
THST540 Doctrine of Salvation
My response to Lenard’s Reflection on “Salvation as free gift of God.”
You are right on your comment in saying that Paul spoke of salvation as a free gift from God. Some people incline to end here by believing that God’s free gift is for everyone and you do not have to do anything else to earn your salvation or it will be meritorious. However, a gift is to be taken or the gift will be sitting there with no effect at all. A free gift is meant to be freely taken by anyone and if no one takes it then the gift is no longer worthy.
So you continue on to state that the gift is for those that believe. Now there’s distinction between takers of the free gift and those that just recognized the free gift of salvation. There’s need for the takers to believe first. If that step is not taken then the free gift of salvation will be continuing to sit where it was put at first. As you have mentioned that believing Christ and accepting His salvation then it follows by a demonstration of a life experiencing sanctification. This is active faith.
I also like when you quote Romans 10:10 “. . . and with the mouth he confess, resulting in salvation.” When we believe God’s salvation, then there’s demonstration as Lenard said. It means that there’s outward evidence of what we believe. Our hearts will change and as a result we will recognize our sins and that will drive us to confess them. We will be standing up against all odds to declare that God is true and that we live because His Son died on the cross for all our sins. This free gift of salvation for the believers will work inside them to confess Christ in word and deed. This will be a manifestation that faith is not passive only but it is active too.
Thank you very much brother for the comments. God bless.
Reaction to Andre Anderson
Andre, I really appreciate your balanced approach in terms of the law and love. I have noticed the same thing happening in our churches- that people approach obedience to the law without a loving spirit. It seems to me that rather than judging someone while we are obedient, we should love them out of genuine concern for their salvation. I think it is a sad road to take to claim to be obedient while condemning people who aren’t as enlightened as you are. I think it is a short-cut. Rather than obeying the two great commandments, its much easier to view others as ‘lost’ and in turn use them as stepping-stones for our own “righteousness.”
I appreciate your comment on how people should feel our love, long before they hear of the doctrines.
The only thing I have to say in terms of criticism on your post is the punctuation and sentence structure. Thanks for the inspiring post brother!
-Nathan Hellman
I am responding to Wallin, who said...
"Perfectionism is a problem that is plaguing most churches today."
I agree with your point, Wallin, and many times and many times consider the following principle, in order to "balance out" the seeming command to be in-ourselves sinless in Matthew 5. It is found a couple of different ways in the New Testament epistles: first in Romans 13:10 where Paul states that “Love is the fulfillment of the law”, and the second in 1 Peter 4:8, where Peter says “Love covers a multitude of sins”.
Now, many with an agenda to do away with the law might claim these verses as an evidence of freedom from the law, law nailed to the cross, etc. But it is not that. It is, rather, returning us to the first principle of heaven: that of love, which is the over-arching theme for the rest of the commands anyway (you’ll recall, in fact, that Jesus made his statement in Matt. 5 in the context of talking about loving our enemies).
Love was the greatest and first principle in heaven. And while this law was perfectly kept, the other laws were a moot point, because they were subordinate to the greatest law of love. (We can debate the extent to which a specific law was laid out in heaven before the fall, but practically, it doesn’t matter very much). The Ten Commandments, given at Mount Sinai to the children of Israel, were a subordinate set of laws to the first, intended to create a society (a foundation) in which selfless love was possible. The further extensions of the hundreds of specific laws given in the Pentateuch after this were furthermore subordinate to the Ten Commandments. When Christ came, he restored the law to it’s proper perspective, stating that “all the law and the prophets” hang on the twin principles of loving God and loving one-another. I believe that it is in this same vein that Paul and Peter claim that we can actually fulfill the law (or ‘cover’ our sins) by loving perfectly. You find in Romans 12-15 an extensive discussion on what it means to love, including a laundry list of things in the second half of Romans 12, which shows that Paul was not breathing mere sentiment, but was pointing out, in detail, what to actually fulfill this law meant.
So, to get back to your comment, Wallin, I discover it ironic that, so often, those who have claimed to have reached perfection are often the ones that appear farthest from this principle of love (especially undeserved love, as talked about by Jesus in Matt. 5). I fear that they have done the same things that the Jews had done in Jesus’ day; gotten the proverbial cart before the horse. They are worshipping the form of what the law was actually intended to point toward.
I agree that lifestyle issues are important. I agree that standards are important. But I believe that living a life with a principle of love will largely cause one to gravitate to the same specifics anyway. If I truly love others as myself, there is no longer a reason to decorate myself up with extensive jewelry or tattoos. If I truly have compassion on those more needy than I, than there is really no risk of becoming covetous of those who have more than I. The fine points of the law tend to work themselves out when the main principle is kept in view.
God, in his mercy, gave us the lesser laws in order to lead us back to the greater. And I unhesitatingly affirm that they need to be followed fully. But if we keep the lesser, while averting our eyes from the greater, we become what Christ called “whitewashed tombs”.
Comments in reaction to Roger Saint-Fleur on ‘Gospel is Bigger than the Cross’
Roger, I really appreciate your thoughtful reflection on what the gospel is, and how it relates to human experience. What a powerful testimony indeed regarding Paul’s conversion and then passion to preach the good news. I agree with you that compassion, mercy, and love need to go hand in hand with the preaching of the gospel. How many people, I wonder, have been turned off to the good news, because it was preached in an unloving context. I remember seeing someone on the streets reading John from a megaphone. The way he read it carried a very condemning tone. Looking around I noticed that many people were leaving and shaking their heads in disapproval.
As Christians we need to show love in all that we do.
I want to respond to one statement you made: “Gospel is truly a miracle of God. It is not necessary to fully understand, if you try to understand everything, you can lose yourself.” First of all, I agree that the Gospel truly is a miracle. I think that what you are communicating reflects what we have been learning in obtaining a larger model for salvation and the gospel. However, it seems that in saying that it is not necessary to fully understand may be interpreted as us having an excuse to not study the many dimensions of the Gospel, with the goal of understanding. Though it’s a mystery, I believe that we will be spending all eternity trying to grasp the Gospel. As you said, we may lose ourselves, but think of what amazing knowledge we gain as God increases in our lives!
-God bless!
-Nathan Hellman
Responding to "Justification and Sanctification" by Nathan Hellman
I appreciate very much what was said with regards to your effort to have a wholesome view of justification and sanctification, and your conclusion that the faith that we exhibit has to be an active faith. "if we WALK in the light" requires some walking. Although I agree with you I wanted to raise a discussion in class today and this seems to be the perfect arena in which to... "vent".
I also understand the concern of those who want to limit the atonement to be solely substitutionary. This is because, if we understand that all is accomplished by God through Christ, how do we then include moral influence as part of the atonement. Would including moral influence include the idea that in order for the atonement to be effective I HAVE to participate? If so then could one really say that Christ died for all, including those who refuse to be influenced? I had a theory, that is that we really need to include more the work of the Holy Spirit in our view of Salvation. Although the Spirit works in conjunction with Christ; because He "Doesn't testify of himself" His work is just as vital if we are to include moral influence in the atonement. Also I believe that Christ's decision to function as our mediator, made it a "justified" experience (legal experience) for the Holy Spirit, who is God, communicate with us, who are sinful beings.
All this to say, my head is spinning from how deep the "rabbit hole" gets. And it's good to know that We're not alone in trying to be whollistic in our understanding of god's word.
Responding to "Mark Tatum on Chapters 5 & 6 of Whidden's Book"
I appreciate the way you dealt with the subject of the pickle God was put in by Lucifer's unjust accusations. I also like you wish that you had more time and more space to elaborate on your discussion but, a little moderation is good sometimes too. :-)
One thing I did want to suggest in regards to mercy being shown in response to sin and prior to sin it being an "unseen" trait of God. [I hope I did miss-represent you in my paraphrase]. I wanted to suggest that the Mercy of God was present and evident before Sin. In the Story of Redemption, Ellen White writes of the time God and the angels spent laboring with Lucifer over his new ideas before he (Lucifer) took them into open rebellion. I believe God in his ever-present mercy allows us to ask questions even though He is the All powerful ruler of the universe. His mercy is in a sense built in to the system because it is not a sin to ask questions.
Comments on Paul A. Samuel’s report about “Ellen White on Salvation” Chapter 1.
I agree in the point that “Ellen White on Salvation” author does not clarify if Mrs. White later moved to where conversion is not expressed with joy. I also agree that she might not giving much emphasis to a public display of the joy of salvation due to the fanatics. I I think that there can be a public expression of joy for salvation that can go with the intellectual part. However, I do not think it should be like a formal act where the others can see that you are really saved. The expression of joy should come naturally and based on the wonderful things that the Lord has done in your life. There might be that some people do not like to talk in public, but their character should irradiate joy and peace. Galatians 5 says that one of the fruits of the Spirit is joy. Therefore, if you have accepted Jesus and you continue in a constant relationship with Him, joy will be present in your life.
My comments on: Montes said... In reading Romans 4:7
1. Bravo on using one text and really elaborating. That is not easy to do.
2. I appreciate your point about us all worshiping something. That we are a created to be worshipers. I think that is so true we are all, in fact, worshiping something even when we say that we don't believe in God. Is it money? Fame? Things?
3. I think it is very important to understand what you set forth in the last paragraph of your response paper - all of our "Spirit-inspired works" have no merit - they are a gift from God.
Comments on Andrew Pileggi’s report about “Adam and the Human Race in the Writings of Ellen White.”
I really liked what you wrote regarding the article by Angel Manuel Rodriguez. Our Savior Jesus Christ is wonderful that allow that some results from the fall come immediately but delay other because He came in the rescue of Adam and Eve. What words could I use to describe this act? It is a huge love that our minds are not capable of understand. You did a great job in writing also about judgment being explain by the example of Adam and Eve. We need to make a decision to either choose Christ or reject Him. The keeping of the law is a reflection of our real commitment to Jesus. He is showing love to us, and because we love Him we will do His will.
In the other point you mentioned that we are all sin because Adam’s fall, I agree that God is not unjust. For Adam entered sin in the world and by Jesus all can be saved. These are great news. As you said we could be discouraged because of our situation. However, we need to look to Jesus, and look forward to the day in which the Lord will come to restore us.
I have read Valmy's blog and I tend to agree. We do polarize our concepts of salvation and sin for that matter. Like it was stated in class we need to broaden our understanding of these concepts. Sin is much bigger than we think. There are so many dimensions to it like the physical, the mental, the sins you know, the sins you don't know. I don't fully understand the whole thing my self, but i do know no matter how great my sin Gods grace is greater.
Wallin O'Connor
I really enjoyed the comment posted by Pohlmark and especially the paragraph concerning the dangers behind the perfection debate. Like with many debates in the church, whenever two extreme views are debated in such an unforgiving manner as this topic, more harm than good is done. It is true that each person views salvation “through the lens of their own experience”. I also don’t think that there will be any consensus concerning this issue. I would however disagree that it is a “mere theological quivel”. As Pohlmark rightly observes some young, both of age and “young in faith”, can be affected and follow any of the radical explanations given to them. The example of the formation of Ellen White’s understanding can be applied to many young “growing up in the church.” And regretfully, many find themselves under the influence of one of the two groups instead of being presented with a larger view of salvation.
In my response to Andrew I want to just say how grateful I am that Jesus stepped in as our mediator right when humanity fell into sin. He was the Mediator for humanity even before the Cross. And it’s very rightly said that the choice is ours and our choice reflects in our works. The issue of propensity to sin that we inherited is often confused with so-called original sin. Rather, instead of choosing to believe in original sin we can accept that through Adam all of humanity fell, but we have a new inheritance and a new past in Christ’s perfect life.
Comment to Pohlmarc Lawrence’s comment posted on 9-09-09
I appreciated the gem parallel. I have grown to understand lately that salvation is indeed a multi-faced theme. I used to think of it in terms of complex, but the fact that there are also multiple faces to explore is another new dimension of salvation. I too agree that the view of salvation needs to be larger, and more inclusive.
I also appreciate the thoughts on the example he used – the issue of perfection. “We find that our individual views, only become error when we hold them exclusively, discounting the possibility that what another theologian is saying may be correct as well.”
The illustratio of a young Christian is relevant. Would he be discouraged at the idea that he needs to attain perfection, because God asks us to? Or would he become self-indulgent, because he has already attained perfection through justification? There are risks in ether view, but I think something we all need to constantly keep in mind is that we can only overcome sin through God’s power, and that progression is something that we will experience even on the other side of eternity.
Comment on Valmy Karemera’s post # 2 on 9-16-09
Great illustrations!
And I agree that we need to see both sides of an issue.
I think one reason why sometimes we tent to defend one side or another on a topic/issue is because we, Christians, believe in absolute truth. However, what we sometimes fail to understand /keep in mind is that the absolute truth is complex and multifaceted, and is revealed to human beings, who have their limitations in comprehending.
“For centuries now, theologians, philosophers, scientists have debated from both sides of isles; one side seeking to emphasize one portion of truth at the expense of the other.” “Tensions {…} stem from a presupposition that two ideas are always mutually exclusive”, says Valmy. But “Mutual exclusivity only widens the gaps and thus pushes us far from truth!”.
Good thoughts!
I really liked Valmy Stephen Karemera’s discussion on active and passive faith. I agree that active faith is the result of passive faith. What I think about often is the fact that many may be showing active faith before being moved by passive faith, as in the case of those who trust in works for salvation.
In response to Pohlmarc Lawrence I would like to comment on the two camps on the issue of Christian perfection. We hear this discussion all the time, but the problem is that this passage is largely misunderstood. If we look at the context we see that perfection in this passage is not referring to moral behavior, but to love, especially love for enemies. Jesus is focusing on love, which to Him is the sum of the law. I know that the previous statement reminds us of our brethren who try to explain away the Sabbath by saying that the sum of the law is love. We need to understand that love is the sum of the law. The ability to love all beings unconditionally most resembles the character of God, with emphasis on the love of God (which is balanced with justice and mercy). We focus so much on the law as if God needs lawyers; we need to become lovers.
Maka Ta’ufo’ou
My Response to Adelina’s “Justification by Faith – Before 1888
My view of the misinterpretation of the doctrine of justification by faith as being twisted is that people are looking for loopholes to excuse their weaknesses and to defend their lust for sinning and rejecting that faith leads to obedience. As a result, they adopt the concept of “once saved, always saved,” stated by Adelina in her reflection.
I am impressed with what Adelina restated of what Whidden says, that people fall into the big temptation of “taking sin lightly and destroy the importance of obedience.” I am aware that there are some Christians who totally disregard and pay no heed at all to obedience as part of justification. They believe that obedience is work and therefore it is salvation by work in which Paul does not teach. That is keeping the Law as a mean of salvation. But Adelina is right in mentioning what Ellen White said: “The doctrine is an invitation to presumptuous sinning.”
In my experience of justification is that I believe that Jesus Christ died for my sin and in my constant communication with Him through prayers, I recognize how sinful and how really bad I am. And this prompt me again to continue seek His presence in my life. This strengthens my trust and faith in Him. Here’s my beloved text, Hebrew 11:1 “Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see,.” (NIV) In 2000 back in New Zealand I believed that God had called me to His Ministry, and now after nine years I still hold on to my faith in God. My faith in Him causes me to obey and leave everything behind but to follow Him. I arrived at La Sierra University with no money and similarly here at Andrews University with my family. I have experienced that God had lead me this far only by trusting Him.
My question now, did I obey God just because I did not trust Him. I must tell you that if I came here on my own accord, I have been given up already. But because faith leads to more power from God then the result is obedience. Is faith relates to obedience, yes is the answer. Did I obey to receive salvation, no, my obedience to God’s call was solely due to my trust and faith in Christ.
Indeed, I want to congratulate you, Nathan, for the balance and more holistic approach toward Lenard’s comment on Salvation out of love for others. Every act of God is an act of love. Therefore it should be the core of everything we do. However, you said “we should love them out of genuine concern for their salvation” which maybe a little work based salvation in some people’s point of view. Rather, we should just lover others for the sake of loving. It is much more easier to pass onto others what has been given to us. We love people in spite of who they are because we are saved and we are saved to seek and save the lost. While showing genuine concern our fellow believers we are working out our own salvation with fear and trembling. We are in this thing together. Whatever I happen to do for your salvation whether you realize it or not you do the same thing for my salvation.
I also would like to express my thank you to Daniel Vega – Lescano for kindly pointing out the joy of salvation. Usually regardless of what happens after one has accepted Christ as Savior and Lord, they count it all with joy. I believe that happens as a result of the Holy Spirit’s presence in the life of the new believer and joy is one of the fruits of the Spirit of God. So, as soon as we put our hands in the hands of God for salvation, no matter what form that salvation might take, the fruit of Christ’s abiding presence will be obvious. Others will affirm certain characteristics and God-given gifts and talents that can be put into the service of the Master. So, saying “I do not think salvation should be like a formal act where the others can see that you are really saved” would probably stretch it too far. Oftentimes, if you stay around someone enough you can tell such a person is a saved Christian based on their joy, gentleness, kindness, unconditional love, warmth, behavior, action, and much more. Even non-Christians have, on many different occasions, testified that sister/brother so and so must have Jesus in her/his life. This man or woman must have been with the Lord because the natural sinful individuals do not always treat others with love, compassion, and grace. It is important that unbelievers see good Christian deeds being displayed in front of them so the they can not only acknowledge that there is a God who reigns on the throne of our hearts but also they will feel attracted to worship our God.
Montes Estinphil
In response to Montes’s question of whether “there is such a thing like a propensity in certain individual DNA to accept Christ or the idea that God can save and will save us while others do not have that tendency?”
Well, there is such a theory purported by a theorist in the school of education called Howard Gardner. He subscribes to the theory of Multiple Intelligences where he believes that every individual is somehow born with the propensity to be, for example, musically inclined, or aesthetically inclined etc. Among his list of intelligences is the widely debated spiritual intelligence that suggests that some people are just simply more inclined to spiritual things than others. In essence, this theory discredits salvation as being only available to some and not to others. Thankfully that is not the case and like you, there is also no question in my mind that salvation is available to everyone. Accepting Christ can never be an issue of spiritual intelligences or propensities, otherwise all that Christ did for us on Calvary would have all been in vain. Furthermore, it would imply that certain individuals could be saved on the basis of their own innate spiritual inclinations, thus it would invalidate Christ’s free gift of salvation.
Comment on Max Pierre’s Reflection Paper 2.
I find two new points in this comment:
(1) The idea that God died for our human race because we were bearing his image. “He made them (male and female) in a level – at His image- that He can come; when they became sinners He will come down to that level to die for them; if man was lower than that – an animal, He – God could not come to rescue them.”
(2) “God created animals according to their likeness or species that means some places some where in the other galaxies or world those things -species (animals, birds and fish) have already existed or known before our creation; as of man, there was no species like that before the creation of this world.”
Thanks for challenging my thought on these aspects of creation/redemption!
In regards to God’s omniscience, I also hold it to be true that “God knew for sure He had to die billions of years before Adam and Eve creation.” This, to me, speaks boldly of his love. Creating free-willed beings at the cost he knew he would pay one day is a priceless proof of his infinite love.
Comment on Andrew Pileggi’s insert on “Adam and the Human Race in the Writings of Ellen White,” posted on 9/16/2009
“Our first parents did not immediately face judgment because of that mediation, and it is because of that mediation that we too have an opportunity of reconciliation.” I like the reality this though portrays. I am grateful that Christ chose to be our mediator, and that through him we have a chance to reconciliation, rather than facing the consequences we deserve.
“In the end they will be judged according to their choice to accept Christ or reject Him and their works will reflect that choice. The same is true of us today.” I think this is very relevant. Our choice to accept Christ cannot come without transformation. That we need to accept it over, and over, and over again, is true, but every time it bears fruit. Otherwise, if it does not work change in our character towards the likeness of Christ, it is empty and useless.
“It’s not that we were mystically in Adam when he committed the sin, but that we inherited the propensity that he inherited when he fell.” I think a correct understanding of the “in Adam” concept is critical. If we believe that we sinned in Adam in terms of imputation (Adam’s sin was imputed to us), then we’d have to agree with the infant baptism, a symbol for purification from the ancestral sin.
A connection I make with this is the misunderstanding Zwingli and other reforming leaders held in regards to infant baptism, believing that it is a substitute for the OT circumcision. But the mainstream understanding of infant baptism is not that of consecration/dedication to God (which would indeed correspond to circumcision), but a cleansing of the forebears’ sin - which is not biblical. So I think it is critical to understand “in Adam” as propensity for sin, not his sin itself.
In response to Enoch on the reflection of Romans 5.
I really like you addressing the necessity of us to die to sin if we are Christians, by putting to death our sin on the cross. How true it is that at baptism we are raised to new life. I also think it is important for us to consider the idea of dying daily (1Cor 15). If not we won’t become slaves to righteousness. I like how you said that His grace enables us to live a life of righteousness. As we really contemplate the significance of Christ and His death, how could we really continue to intentionally sin?
One thing that I caught to be challenging in your reflection is when you said “if we take upon ourselves the wages of sin...”. I think that we don’t have much of a choice to take those wages upon us. I believe we have earned those wages and Christ paid for them. The real death we are in danger of is the second death.
Thanks bro for your reminder to die to sin and put on righteousness. I agree with you, that I don’t want to continue in this cycle of sin either. I want to be a slave to righteousness too. Come Jesus come.
-Nathan Hellman
Responding to Maka on Chapter Five of Whidden’s Book.
First of all I have to say Amen. It is so important that we realize that God is a God of Love, Mercy, and Justice. I like how you highlighted Whidden’s and EGW’s sentiments of the importance of the Great Controversy theme. Without that model, Christians are in want for an explanation for those accusations. Without that theme people explain it away as ‘the mystery of God’, and though it is very mysterious how He loves us so much and has given us His Son, we can still pursue understanding His great plan of Salvation. I also like how you emphasized Christ coming and living obediently to the law so that grace takes the place of the law. To go further, grace takes the place of the law’s accusations against us. Through His obedience, we are seen as perfect in Him.
Thanks Maka,
Nathan Hellman
Response to Roger’s – Assurance of Salvation
I think that the questions you asked are very important and will be studied and talked about for as long as this world will lasts. Jesus has given all of us the right to eat at the Tree of Life. But how does it become reality? How do we accept this free gift? By faith in what has already been accomplished by the perfect sacrifice of Christ (atonement) and allowing that sacrifice to change us into His image (works),
I really appreciate the clarity of what you have shared. I also believe, as you do, that it is the individuals’ relationship with Christ and total dependence on Him that will give evidence that our salvation is assured in Him alone. And as you said in your conclusion – this relationship brings true love and joy to the Christians heart. What a motivation to reach all men with the grace of God. We can all have assurance in the free gift of God. Amen. Thanks for sharing Roger!
Enoch Brownell
Comments on Max Pierre’s article # 6
I agree 100% with you when you say that the Bible states that “God created everything”. This reflection will always result into debates since nobody has the answer. Earth’s creation to some extent is like the mystery of the Caramilk bar. In this case a key question to ask is how the caramel is inserted between the two layers of chocolate. Since it is a man made creation, a visit to the factory will provide us with all the technique. On the other hand when it comes to mother Earth its formation will remain forever a secret, except for God. He is the only one to know when and how it was conceived; how it was all put together. When I think of planet earth many unanswered complex questions come to mind; for instance, how can we have gravity on the land were we live while the earth is floating in space? How were night and day created, just think about the differences between countries time zone? How were formed the sun and the moon? How are the lakes, sea and rivers able to stay confined in specific spaces all over the world without overflowing one country more than another? This priceless space was given to us without any flaws. The Bible contains many answers that we are looking for.
Thanks to studies made by many researchers, scientist and biologist were have a better understanding of the reasons why in biodiversity, the nature, the world of insects, and mammals are all made a certain way. They will never be able to solve this complex puzzle. Nonetheless, even with all these proven facts we will never be able to fully understand everything since God is the only one to have all the answers.
Another complex yet unbelievable creation is the human being. We were formed with all the necessary parts to allow us to be functional: ears to hear, eyes to see, teeth to eat, a brain that interlinks all these elements together. None other than God has this capacity to make such perfect creation. He has created us to his image. I do also believe that we human beings were created for a purpose since God planned things with such thought and precision. Ellen White as you said expresses this thought with well selected words, by saying that (we) are the jewel of creations.
None other than God has given us redemption. Thanks to Him we are given a chance to have a fresh new start.
To conclude I can only say that we must always have a place for God in our hearts. He must always be praised and love for his magnificent work, his goodness and everything that he has given to us. Praise the Lord.
This topic will open many more interesting debates and comments.
Roger Saint-Fleur
Comments on Wallin Perfection’s Reflexion
All men and women became impure since the day that Adam and Eve decided to take a bite on that forbidden fruit. This fact clearly states that we are all sinners. God is holy and the only one to have escaladed through such heights of perfection. Knowing this fact however does not stop us as persons of doing our best to attain the highest level of goodness of our moral character.
God would like for all of us to be helpful to others, be good listeners, to share; accomplish all these action with the goodness of our hearts. By having this frame of thought and by acting upon I believe that we will get closer and closer to God’s wish.
God is present at all times to lead us in the right direction and help us become better citizens. I also agree your following statement: “that Christ is not talking about a perfection that is strictly meeting the churches standards and condemning those who may not reach there yet. But rather He is talking about having “Perfect Love”. God wants us to accept everybody equally and to have love in our hearts for all. We must remember that we are all on this earth due to His unconditional love. For this reason we must remain faithful and follow his foot steps the best we can. As we grow closer to God and by spreading goodness around us we will approach this state but never obtain it completely since He is the perfect One.
Roger Saint-Fleur
Comments on Maka Ta'ufo'ou’s “Romans 3, 4 & 5: Justification by faith.
I liked your comments about Justification by faith. I also agree with you in the fact that sometimes is difficult to understand the main points that Paul tries to present. As you know, Peter commented that Paul’s writings are difficult to understand. It is sad that many people that Paul’s words on justification in wrongly way. There is no excuse for people who profess have accepted Christ to continue in their sins. The same Paul says in 2 Corinthians 5:17 that we are new creatures, the old things passed away. Paul is saying that we are new creatures, we do not need to leave in the way we used to. Another thing that comes to my mind is the fruits of the Spirit which Christ followers need to have. If I continue with a life of sin what I am bearing is the fruits of the flesh. It is really sad that many people misinterpret the Bible. It is our called to share with Christ’s love the truth about salvation with everyone.
Comments on Roger Saint-Fleur’s: “The Assurance of Salvation.”
I think it would be awesome that God somehow show us that our place is assured in heaven. However, God works in ways that He knows will the best for us. We cannot do anything by ourselves to keep the assurance that we are going to be saved. The only thing that we can do is to hold on Jesus in a constant relationship as you said. Jesus said that we need to abide in Him, because without Him we cannot do anything. We need to go Jesus every day and ask Him for the gift of salvation, the robe of His righteousness. We also need to die to self. Like the apostle Paul said: I am crucified with Christ, I do not live, but He lives in me. I liked what you say at the end of you comments, that once we understand the assurance of salvation it should be a joy. It is Jesus who intercedes for us. If everyday we surrender to Him, a peace and joy will filled our hearts. We know that we are walking with Him, and if we stumble and fall, He is there to lift us up to continue in the walk.
It is possible to look at foreknowledge, predestination, calling, justification, and glorification in light of salvation in both a closed and an open view.
Looking at the closed box, most of us would agree that humans have very limited choice. Is not our freedom limited anyway? Can we do everything we want to do? Certainly not! Furthermore, human beings can only exercise their freedom of choice to a certain extent or within a certain parameter. To me, that says without a shadow of doubt that we are functioning within a certain boundary and once we would try go over the fence someone else would remind us that we are bound to act in such and such a way within that particular sphere. If one thinks that no one is bound then we can ask the question where else can humans live in God’s universe except on the planet earth. People can go to the moon, mars, Jupiter, Saturn, and other planet, but no has ever inhabited another world and at the same time own a house down here whether Hawaii, Tokyo, or someplace else. We have been traveling within this planet; we were born in it; we are bound to die in it; many generations have gone and will come and find it spinning around unless the Creator stops it. We are bound to many things. In fact, if one takes a closer look at the global village and small community one lives in one will quickly realize that humans are fragile, petit, monotone, and enslaved. Anything happens in the life of human being and that life changes for good will never be the same again. We are often thrilled before supernatural wonders because, in our smallness, we cannot do much without the help from above. We have so much in common and we cannot avoid those commonalities. Sometimes I do not want to use the restroom. Hello! I have to go there because I am human and I cannot be more than a human. We are bound to share joy, pain, strengths, weakness, grief, sickness, death and many other things. We are in a human box made by the Architect of universe.
Looking at the open box, no matter how limited it might be, we can make decisions that may have great impact on present and future. One of the blessings and privileges we have been given as intelligent beings is the ability to make a choice for or against our salvation. We can choose where we want to spend one thousand year vacation. We actually choose heaven in choosing to Jesus today and every waking moment of our conscious existence. In other words, as long as we live we have a part to play in favor our salvation with Christ Jesus. That is why with the opening view which makes much better sense for me Jesus says hey! Here is the path to death and the path to life. Go ahead and choose one. “I suggest that you take life because if you do you actually will both in this life and in the one to come.” That freedom is not predestined. I appreciate the comment professor Hanna made in class when he said “for God to be who he says He is he must have created an open universe where there is a possibility of sin, rebellion, and disobedience. When things got chaotic He would bring about solution. Humans are caught in a snare of invisible and visible. We are not totally free as well as we are not totally bound.
Montes Estinphil
This is in response to Adelina's post (10/28/2009):
I agree with Adelina for most of those who grew up as Adventist phrase "Christ saved the world" means that it is applicable only to those believers who freely choose to believe that his sacrifice saves them but at the same time a believer understands that his faith will have an influence on his life. It wasn't until I heard a phrase "cheap grace" when I came to realization that prevalent understanding among Christians is that Christ sacrifice is applicable to us regardless of what we do. But faith has influence on the believer and this influence have to bring fruit and if it's a genuine faith I believe it will. This way we may say that salvation is conditional, but conditional in the sense that in our helplessness we acknowledge what Christ did for us and our live show results of our faith. By saying that "unconditional salvation" means that one will be saved regardless of ones life fruit I think is like saying that we only focus on one aspect of the full picture. It is a very narrow view it rejects gospels moral influence in our live.
Commenting on Andre's statement on Oct 28.
I totally agree with your statement regarding both Ellen White's Christocentric view and the dual nature of Christ. Her views on salvation were like those of Paul. I think when we begin to see what the Spirit was trying to reveal regarding our salvation it would cause many to call it cheap grace. I would say that Ellen and Paul were accused of advocating cheap grace, but they weren't the ones who got it wrong.
Commenting on Enoch's Oct 30th statement:
I see what you're saying about the passive and active faith. When you really think about it, even with our active faith it is as though we don't do anything. Using your same example from Exodus 14. The passive faith was believing God would fight, the active faith is walking through the Red Sea. In the end, the only thing we had to do was walk by faith on the path prepared for us.
Commenting on Montes' post regarding "...foreknowledge, predestination, calling, justification, and glorification..."
I appreciate your approach in that you tried a middle ground when assessing the subject. However, if we keep the subject as you concluded, "humans are caught in a snare of invisible and visible. We are not totally free as well as we are not totally bound," I'm afraid the issue of a closed future will forever remains with us.
I understand your position when you cite our limited freedom in exploring the worlds beyond ours. I think this is due to the problem of sin. We're trapped on this planet because its the only one that chose to rebel!
On the other hand, if we do not possess absolute freedom of choice, then there is a contradiction in God. How? If God says that He is love by nature, then he must permit absolute freedom since love by definition necessitates free will. Unlimited freedom of choice must be granted to us, otherwise, God cannot be just and righteous in his dealing with mankind. I'm afraid on this point, either/or is unavoidable!
Alright my brother, just thought I'd share my humble thoughts with you!
Maka Ta’ufo’ou
Response: #4
To brother Andre Anderson on Chapter 12 – That’s a good mixture.
You’re quite true on reminding us of what Paul have experienced in his Christian journey. As a sinner I am inclining to do what I know I should not do. And what I should do I am inclining not to do. This prompts me again to reevaluate my Christian walk as sometimes I feel that I have no hope at all. At times I realize that I preoccupy myself with school work and forget to spend more time with God and revive myself spiritually.
I am glad that you’ve brought up the question of whether we “should give up or should we continue to struggle?” You added on, what are we going to do when we struggle with sin then we ask for forgiveness but then we find ourselves returning back to sinning again? You’ve provided the right answer and we are fortunate that we have our advocate to stand on our behalf every time we fall into sin. And once we realized our sinfulness and truly repent and confess, sure Jesus is listening and He stands on our behalf to plea for us.
I just want to add on to the truth that you’ve shared if you don’t mind. As we struggle with our sins and continue to plea for grace there is tendency that we can grow spiritually stronger every day. Once we are justified we grow in His mercy and as we grow we are sanctified and we are perfected as we constantly allowing the Holy Spirit to take control of our lives. I can suggest that may be when we grow and struggle upward in our spiritual journey, there may be less returning to our sinful habit. I am not saying that Paul is wrong, no, we incline to do what we should not do but as we become stronger spiritually the less tendency for us to go back and commit the same thing over and over again. For the fact is that God is taking control of our lives.
Maka Ta’ufo’ou
Response: #5
To Enoch Brownell – Reflection of Romans 1:5.
“Through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name’s sake.”
I am delighted about this text for I have been blinded for a long time. I felt the same way in appreciating what I’ve learned so far in this course. I accepted that we are justified by faith but at the same time God will judge us according to our deeds so it was difficult to reconcile these two. The Bible is very clear about them and obviously we cannot deny or ignore one and claim that the other is the true way of salvation. This verse came with the solution that both are right, both are need for salvation.
I agree with what you’ve reminded us about faith. There are two forms that we need to understand clearly. One is passive faith in which many people that we are justified by passive only. In other words, it is all in the mind and trust God and then let God do the rest. It seems that once we are justified, we do not play any part at all. However there is influence in the faith that we have which prompt the believer to respond to God. We are vulnerable though to the danger of falling to believing justification by work. But how we can reconcile what the Bible is teaching, therefore there is active faith as the second form you’ve mentioned.
You’ve given very plain examples of both forms of faith and I think that is sufficient for believers not to be bias and take one side only but to clarify all proof from the Bible. Faith is passive when we accept Christ as our Saviour. As Romans 1:5 says, “ we have received grace . . . to bring about obedience of faith . . . .” SDABC. vol 6. says, “Faith means rather that habit and attitude of mind by which the Christian shows his loyalty and devotion to Christ and his dependence on Him. Such faith produces obedience.” Once we are justified and depends on God, the passive faith becomes active faith. Passive faith produces obedience. Paul is very clear that his message is to bring about the obedience that springs from faith. I am glad that you’ve reminded us today.
Maka Ta’ufo’ou
Response: #6
To: Lenora D. Muse – Reflection #4: How Perfect is Perfect? OR Is Christian Perfection Possible?
Thank you Lenora for informing us of Mathew 5:48 “Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” Of course the question arises as: How can we be perfect? How can we be perfect while Paul is telling us that: “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.” Romans 3:23. “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.” Romans 5:12. So if we are all sinned and fall short of the glory of God, then how can Matthew tells us that we have to be perfect? This sounds like the Bible is not coodinating and any writer can write whatever comes to his mind. But you have dealt with this in a way that leads us to more understanding.
Although the word “perfection” will be welcomed by some Christians while some will argue that none of us whatsoever can be perfect. As you’ve mentioned that there is failure in the understanding of what the Bible teaches on the nature of sin and perfection. That misleads people to take sides and fight over these two issues claiming that one is right while the other is wrong. I really like the way you present your solution for the matter. This is a misconception on the application of perfection in place of sinlessness. Perfection and sinlessness are two different things. And rightly so all of us sinned and still we can be perfect.
According to Dr Hanna’s lecture on September 09, 09 in which I was very impressed with his approach. Perfection comes in every stage. Once we accept Christ by faith we are justified. His grace promt us to grow even though we are sinners. This is then the process of sanctification. We progress and process in perfection. We are perfected on the way up as we grow under God’s grace. However it is not like the perfectionists’ view that they arrive at a point where perfection is achieved and there plateau until glorification. No, we struggle and grow upward until our glorification when our sinful nature be removed.
You’ve said it, that we look to Jesus for our perfection and the presence of the Holy Spirit in our lives gives us victory and we can be perfect as we grow. In addition, I like your endorsement of what Heppenstall said: “Surrender to Christ must be maintained day by day.” You said: “But I am incline to believe that it takes a minute by minute in this world for surrendering to Christ.” I am with you on this. I believe a day is too much of a gap for me as a sinner to grow. I can agree with living for Christ moment by moment. That will give me more chance fo growing higher and higher. Thank you sister for the reminder.
Comments on Adelina’s Posting Paper: The Nature of Christ and Salvation written by Ellen White.
I must start by saying that this is a topic that can create a lively, healthy, discussion. Once again we find ourselves in front of another God’s wonderful manifestation of love. Christ, as God, allows himself to be so close, in touch with human beings in order to give his life to rescue them from eternal death. Being fully God and fully human, he was able to put himself in people’s shoes in order to understand the feelings and tribulations human beings are going through. He knows and sees how sin evolves and how it takes place in the midst of God’s creature. He is able to connect closely with us. This task had to be done by a godly being such as the one and only Christ. As mentioned in the comments above “He had to be divine and possess a sinless humanity in order to accomplish His role of justifying Savior.” Coming on earth was a necessary exposure for Him to understand men’s state. His power allowed Him to understand men’s sins without falling into temptation. It is through this inner control, His understanding of the human kind and actions that He is recognized as the divine. I agree with Whidden’s comment when he says that “He was enough like us to identify Himself with our infirmities.” He is the only one who can feel our pain, sadness, joy, problems, uncertainties and sins. This is a powerful strength that cannot be underestimated. Being touched by sin, but not being infected with it, is an astonishing force that gives Him the capacity to have a better understanding, to help us, to come to our rescue and make us understand our wrong doings. Because of the way that He was conceived, He is able to understand us, forgive and give us second chances. His love is holy and whole. As mentioned by Ellen “Christ could have done nothing during His earthly ministry in saving fallen man if the divine had not been blended with the human”. This in depth analysis of men allows him to know how to react and come in help to all. Each case is dealt with care and understanding due to the fact that we are all different. Thanks to Christ we are always able to see a light at the end of the tunnel and keep the hope, for a better life for each an every one of us, alive. Christ, Son of man, was conceived by God in such a way for men and women to have an opportunity to be saved and have a chance to redeem them. This is what we call a God of love. My views in relation to the context of sinful and corrupt nature will continue to occupy my thoughts. This is a challenging yet very interesting topic.
My comments on Faith to Salvation to Faith written by Valmy Stephen Karemera.
I believe that a special moment must be allocated to read God’s message. Quality time must be set aside. The Bible must be read when we are in a calm state of mind. I agree with you when you say that “faith does not originate with man, but comes from God”. With faith God has given us the ability to believe and have hope. This precious gift is not cultivated at its full capacity. It can be nourished by hearing, reading and believing in God’s words.
Passive faith can be understood in the action of Jesus knocking at the door of the heart of a person and the response of that person opening his heart to Jesus. In revelation 3: 20 Jesus said: “Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.”
When this level of faith in God is obtained our inner faith blooms like a flower and gives us a sense of calm and well being. “Passive faith is an inward human response to divine revelation”. This is a result of having love for God and understanding of Him. As you said “It is an opening of one heart to the voice of God”.
Saving faith is the trust that people put in the message of the Gospel. “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.” Ephesians 2:8 This Salvation by Faith proclaims that God is merciful to all those who believe that Jesus died for them. In John 3: 36a it says that “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life.” In Hab 2:4 it says that “The just shall live by faith”.
When someone reaches this level of joy and comfort it is so intense that it must be shared with others through action. This is called active faith. This inner joy is shared with family and friends by communicating God’s words of wisdom. Positive actions done daily to help our fellow men in distress also keep faith alive. As you said “Faith without work is dead”. I see that faith is developed and acquired by going through steps. From faith to Salvation to faith is not so easy to interpret, but with the support of bible verses one can arrive to a step by step interpretation and understanding of that topic.
Roger Saint-Fleur
Thank you Roger Saint-Fleur for having commented on passive and active faith the way you did. This type of thinking generates ideas in my mind that I would like to share based on faith that can be both active and passive. “Positive actions done daily to help our fellow men in distress also keep faith alive.” It sounds like when we do good things in the community our faith remains alive. Is there any room to make a difference between good deeds and righteous ones? In reality, God initiates faith in the life of the believers and at that moment such faith is passive and remains passive due to the fact that the sinner cannot save himself. However, when we respond to the Gospel our response makes our faith active. What I mean is that whenever faith is active to God it is passive to us and whenever faith is passive to God is active to us. Does that mean that God, at times, does not act on our behalf? It simply means that God appeals to us and awaits our response. If the sinner does say “yes” to the Gospel then it is as though did not exist. It takes God’s love and the sinner’s love to make salvation possible. What do we mean when we say positive actions keep faith alive and well? Stopping a pedophile from entering a church building where we have so many kids is a positive action; putting asleep someone a professional murderer is positive action; blowing a missile on the Taliban before they blow up a community of thousands of people is a positive action; sponsoring a few third world country children to school is a positive action. It seems that positive actions do not necessarily imply righteous ones. Doing good things alone cannot justify a solid Christian soldier. The heart needs to take part in that act based on faith in Christ. Doing good hast to match being good. Because everything that is good comes from God then being a good person gives birth to good deeds. In other words, a Christ like minded person wills what Christ would have done Himself given the same situation. Positive actions done day by day does not necessarily indicate that one has a saving faith in God. People of no faith help in our community a lot and sometimes more than those who have faith.
Montes Estinphil
We were like sheep wandering away if though there were no shepherd, but Christ came on our rescue. We were far from being perfect. If we were perfect we would not need a Savior. No matter what we do our perfection lies in Christ Jesus. He is the only one standing without taint or spot. In other words, He is the only spotless lamb that ever lived on earth. Jesus’ work must carry on via Holy Spirit and human agency. I am persuaded that message of perfection is only making sense when it is associated to the blood of the Lamb slain since the foundation of the world. Yes, we can be perfect, but in Christ. The only way we can meet the same standard as unfallen Adam is to let Christ into our life day by day, moment by moment, and hour by hour. Only by perfect obedience the requirement of justification, sanctification, and glorification can be met to make our election sure.
Obedience through faith can facilitate the condition to the real transformation that will to heavenward to meet Jesus. Faith is not blind. It comes with evidence and action for the conviction of both believers and none believers. There is no stiff-necked head with an obedience child. It is said a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith in Jesus. And that faith, once more, can be both passive and active depending on whose turn to act: the sinner or God. No matter how much we pinch in God remain the author and finisher of our faith. God initiated it all. He came up the idea of salvation and since then has never lived His people nor forsakes them. We are perfect in Christ. Now does it mean that rescue us from all propensities to sin since He makes holy we can stand before God as though we had not sinned?
Responding to Nathan Hellman's comment on Justification and Sanctification. I totally agree with you bro. Faith has both an active and passive element. I think of Paul admonishing the Romans to walk after the Spirit. As we remain in relationship with God, we remain justified and He cleanses us. It's all about walking with the Spirit. This is obviously active. As we walk, God continues to reveal Himself and His plan to us, which transform our characters and empower to continue walking. However, we must choose to follow Him. If we do choose to follow, then He supplies the strength.
I am responding to the presentation on Romans 7 in class on November 18th. Why can't we say that Paul is describing Himself in this passage? It sounds to me that Paul is describing a struggle that we can all relate to, from the spiritual babe to the spiritual man. It's hard for us to think that Paul could be referring to himself in this passage probably because we believe that Paul himself had overcome; but was Paul perfect? Could it be that he still had some inner struggles? Notice in chapter 7 that he uses the tenth commandment, which for the most part happens within you. I believe that Paul is describing the condition of a Christian engaged in spiritual warfare, and he is voicing the frustration we all experience when submitting ourselves wholly to God.
This is a short comment on Andrew Pillegi post. I agree with Andrew that in our beliefs we are approving the 1888 message but practice looks different. Although there are different views on this matter among church members and adventists scholars the lack of consensus certainly doesn't help. Calling others who see things
differently or calling them liberal is not an answer to the problem as well. I hope that very soon we (maybe Atlanta) we will be able to discuss relation between theological
principals and practical gospel.
David Polok
I really like Roger's post. Just like you I believe that evangelism is integral part of the doctrine of salvation. Certainly Ellen White would also agree with you. You also pointed very well to several theological reasons why it is so. Indeed throughout the Bible we can see God's longing for salvation of human beings. So to be saved also means to follow his desire towards salvation of humanity. You're right that because of general movement to trivialize sin we need to often point out the sin, which definitely have a place in evangelism to. And finally definitely knowing Christ is more then a just a concept, it is a life changing reality (or should be), there is a place for charts and theories but we should focus on the most important.
David Polok
A Response to Roger on
‘Salvation Hand in Hand with Evangelism’
This was an excellent reflection on the importance of evangelism in light of all that we have been learning this semester. I like what you said about the doctrine of salvation joining with others in evangelism. I think that it is so true that in this day sin is trivialized and thus grace is trivialized and seen as all that is necessary for salvation. Grace costed so much! It’s moral influence should change the life of the believer. Which leads me to resonate with another point you made, that we need Christ. We are not saved by a chart or formula, we are saved by Christ.
I also appreciate the fact that you pointed out that salvation’s message is universal. We must not let prejudice or bigotry stand in the way of allowing the everlasting gospel reach the lost. The one place that I would differ with you is that I think that we are not (yet) the last church with the great commission. I have heard many evangelical preachers stress the importance of carrying the gospel to the ends of the earth.
blessings,
Nathan Hellman
A Response to Lenora D. Muse on
Perfection
Thank you for being transparent and sharing a testimony of your struggles with this issue. It’s interesting that when perfection is presented non-biblically, then it causes all sorts of struggles and even abandonment because the bar is set so unreachably high. You hit the point when you said that the bible never equates perfection with sinlessness. I suppose that it would though as it refers to Christ, but for the believer our only hope is in Him.
You stressed the importance of looking to Christ minute by minute, which enables the Holy Spirit to work in us. This is so good and true. I have experienced in my walk an overcoming of sin as I look to Christ, not to myself. It seems that the moment we take our eyes off of the Perfect one, we start to backslide and forget our true condition and need. This has been an encouragement to me to share the important scriptural view of perfection in light of Christ’s perfection. Thanks!
-Nathan Hellman
I am commenting on Nathan Hellman's "With the Universe as Witness"
I appreciate your thoughts, Nathan. Having grown up in Christianity, it is easy to forget how strange and paradoxical our faith must seem to outsiders. Truly it is "foolishness" from the world's point of view, as Paul says.
I remember being struck by this (how strange and backwards our faith really is) a few years ago, while reading Philip Yancey's "The Jesus I Never Knew" (about his being raised Christian, but never seeing the actual Christ because of all the 'stuff' we build around our faith). It just struck me how crazy it is what we beleive.
A strong God willingly made weak? Condescending to his rebellious enemies? God dying? Us glorifying an event of torture, shame, and humiliation, and showing it to children? And these are the upstanding members of society?
Since then I've always tried to keep my faith fresh, keep it from falling into a rut. I remember I started an academy chapel talk once with the presupposition that buildings had all sorts of torture devices placed on top of them, giving them tribute, and how weird that would be.
What God did is so profound for us largely because it is backwards. We will never understand it fully. We will never understand how strength was displayed in weakness, how love was displayed in the midst of mockery, blood, pride, and politics. But God did it. And we owe our lives to it. Our eternal appreciation will only grow as we learn more about it through eternity.
And, the 2nd point, I was intrigued by what you said about Jesus death NOT being an active act on God's part (or something like that, you quoted an author you had been reading). It struck me as the opposite of what I had just read in Whidden's book (that we're reading for this class), chapter 5. It gave me a question mark in my brain, because I had just shortly before been convinced of the opposite. But pretty quick you were back onto things I could agree with, and appreciated deeply. I'd be interested to hear what you think in the light of Whidden's chapter on EGW and the atonement. Not that I believe it should have to change your mind. I'm just interested to see how you'd balance the two.
I am responding to Pohlmarc O. Lawrence's "Follow up on Communication of Salvation"
Ha! You gave me something new to think about! It really tickled me, because I was a psychology minor in undergraduate, yet had never considered these various models in context with the different stages of moral development (also models/theories). Thank you for the brain candy!
Yes, atonement (and the means by which God accomplished/accomplishes it) is a deep thing that we are all struggling to get our minds around. The crazy/beautiful thing is that it works on several different levels! Some might appeal to "higher" or "more noble" worldviews, while others are much more "basic" or "rudimentary", but they all work!
And the obvious fact is that it's not our conception of the cross which saves us. It's the fact that it (itself) is what saves us is what's important. But God wants to lead us along in understanding. And he makes it accessible at every stage of life. It's like Jesus said, we have to accept Grace as a child. Children live in a world of grace and it makes sense to them that God extends it like their parents do (they can never 'deserve' food or a bed anyway). As we progress to adulthood, our religion runs the risk of getting tripped up if our understandings to not mature along with our worldview.
But it works all the way through, which is profound. There are possibilities for misunderstanding all the way through, too, no doubt. But that is why God says to us "Come, let us reason together" Isaiah 1:18.
I am responding to rodrigogaliza's comment from December 1 at 8:00 (it didn't have a title)
Yes, the Gospel has been expressed in many different times and ways through history, and it has always had to be made relevant/contextualized for the audience receiving it. (This could even explain why God appears so different in, say, the pentateuch, vs. in the gospel accounts).
But, yes, the media by which the Gospel is communicated, and the 'baggage' that necessarily comes with it based on how it is communicated is a concern.
We westerners love to make it high intellectual content (i.e. a lot of reading and reasoning), but we've got to remember that a lot of the world puts the highest value on experience (let us not forget that the original encounters with Christ were all experiential! No explanation is given, for example, for how it happened, or what Peter thought of it when he got to walk on water a couple steps).
I, too, have been concerned on the 'sensationalism' of the media, and how incompatible it seems to be with the message of self-sacrifice, slowness, and sincerity that God espouses. In the last 200 years (less, even?), the world has taken on a different pace than it ever had before. The question is, can the Gospel overcome this hurdle, and still be heard in all the 'noise' of the world?!
Two good aspects of modern technology is that it does bring us back to a sense of 'experience'. When Jesus first did miracles, people didn't read about it, people saw it! And now through programs, people can see 'Jesus' doing these things, probably very similarly to what the original audience saw. (The one draw-back here is the knowledge that one is actually watching actors and special effects that can ruin the experience).
The other benefit is that it can get all the way around the world quickly now. If something big happens in India, we know about it the same day. This means that the Gospel can be spread quickly (Matt. 24:14). It also means that an Antichrist power can get it's message around the world quickly. But this is what we expect anyway!
I look forward to the day when we will be reunited in Heaven with those who have gone before, who have had a totally different conception of faith. Some will know hardly any of the Bible stories! I look SO forward to the debriefing afterwards. We will learn for an eternity of God, his goodness, and the plan of salvation!
I am responding to Andrew Pileggi, in his 'Ellen White stood alone on her views of justification by faith before 1888' comment.
Yes, it's funny how we really tend to fall off one side of the path (legalism), or the other (easy grace) constantly. It's amazing to me that early SDAs could be so against justification by faith, when there's so much of it in the NT!
I've heard it said time and again that we are the only religion that even has a concept of grace. In Islam, I believe salvation is based on whether your good works outweigh your bad. Judaism certainly has a concept of forgiveness (look at all the great forgiveness verses in the OT). But as far as I know, we are the only religion that says "salvation is not about us achieving our way up to God, rather, it is about God condescending to us."
So we say "grace", but we still really think 'works' a lot of the time because that's how we're wired in this world. Our relationship with parents, community, job, all come from a 'works' orientation. We're soaked in it from the moment we're born.
It's sad how some really don't trust God enough, and turn legalistic (Paul refers to this in Galatians), but it's also sad what people justify doing in the name of grace! Paul actually says "their condemnation is deserved" in reference to people who try to justify continuing to sin based on God's grace.
Some versions of grace go to far. I was in an elementary classroom at a lutheran school once, and I saw a classroom poster contrasting law and grace. It said that law brought things like death, a heart of stone, a judgmental character, etc., while grace brought redemption, forgiveness, kindness, etc. Some people really villify the law! But my question is to them, what about all of David's proclamations that the Law brings life, it is a source of joy to him, etc.?! Many many affirmations of the Law in the OT, but many 'grace-ers' want to throw it out. My second question is, why would God have given it, if it was so horrible? I know, I know, a mirror, to show us our sin, depravity, and bring us to repentance. But if it serves only this purpose, then dozens of generations lived knowing only the 'mirror', but with no concept of the real solution!
It is clear to me then the law is for more than looking at and evaluating ourselves on. It is to be followed to the best of our ability. It's all through the NT, too. "Dear children, I write this to you so that you may not sin. But if you do sin, there is one who speaks to the father in our behalf - Jesus Christ, the righteous one." There it is. Praise God for Jesus! He lived as our example, died as our substitute. We should model our lives off of him, based on the love and attraction we feel for him, and the thankfulness we have for having received the offer of salvation.
Comment on Nathan Hellman’s blog posted on 12-08
I appreciate you bringing salvation at a personal level.
Also, I find your reference from Reid’s book significant: ‘He went to the place we really belong’- that place being utter separation from God.” I think I’ve never thought of this particular aspect in this way, or with this connection. It makes me realize that our life would have looked like without God – or better said, lack of life. Which makes me remember a statement I read once in a book (but I can’t recall the title now), that goes something like this: “God is life, and sin is separation from God; therefore our sin, our choice to separate ourselves from God has as natural consequence death.” God is life, and as we separate from Him, the result is death.
I also like how the Father is presented in a positive light.
Comment on Rodrigo Galiza’s blog posted on 12-01-09
I appreciate Rodrigo looking at salvation from the perspective of communication.“As the manner of communication changed (media), the perception of reality also changed (message), including man perception of a plan of salvation,” he relevantly says. The reference to iconography versus Bible in the Middle Ages as something that made people see God primarily as transcendent makes sense to me. It also makes sense that the personal use of Bible would bring God closer to us individually, and His immanence is better understood. Also, very interesting further remarks on how the individualism has been exaggerated, to the point that in our age, we are faced with the problem that he very well raises: “How have Adventism dealt with this trend in Christianity to make very individualistic the gospel?” I can’t add anything to this as far as answers, but I appreciate this blog, as it made me think about certain aspects I had not considered before. I will definitely ponder over this for a while.
In response to "The Complex Nature of the Incarnate God" by Nathan Hellman.
I agree with your observation. The nature of Christ remains a hot potato within Adventism. As you pointed out, it is important that we approach this issue more comprehensively rather than restrictively. The paradox over nature of Christ hinges on two points:
1. The human element of Christ. Was it before the fall or after fall?
2. The nature of temptation. Was he tempted like we are (as Paul says in Hebrews) or because of his divinity somehow his temptation was different from ours?
In my humble view, this is where the issue lies in this Christological debate over the nature of Christ.
Montes asks "It is possible to look at foreknowledge, predestination, calling, justification, and glorification in light of salvation in both a closed and an open view?"
It might be logically possible but not sure if Biblically it can. But even my statement here is illogical because really whatever is Biblical is logical.
Closed view assumes a classical philosophical presuppositions -- timelessness of God. This greatly inhibits a clear view of the order of salvation.
I’d like to add a new twist to the creation-redemption debate especially from Adelina’s response to Max. The uniqueness of man in all of God’s creation speaks volume about God’s intentionality in making man “in His own image”. God intended from the very beginning to have a relationship with man that would be different from His other creation. The introduction of sin cut short the face to face, but God was not about to let Go. Hence, the plan for the redemption of man was set in motion. We cannot read God’s mind David said but the evidence is there in scripture that because man bears God’s image, He would do anything to restore it. The bottom line for God is not to lose a part Himself. Calvary is there to prove how far He’s willing to go.
I’d like to add a new twist to the creation-redemption debate especially from Adelina’s response to Max. The uniqueness of man in all of God’s creation speaks volume about God’s intentionality in making man “in His own image”. God intended from the very beginning to have a relationship with man that would be different from His other creation. The introduction of sin cut short the face to face, but God was not In Response to Nathan and Valmy on the nature Christ, I would like to suggest Millard Erickson book Christian Theology. There he parses the issues of a pre fall/post fall with great depth. The importance of His humanity will never be over stated. But for Christ humanity, justification would be impossible and there starts the dominos effect in the order of salvation. His Divinity never supplied Him with any supernatural strength that is not available to us today. What differentiates Christ to the rest of humanity is the ability with which he stayed in constant contact with the father. His nature was like ours; however, his superiority to obey His father’s will far surpasses ours.
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