My comment is in regards to Walter's question at the end of his assignment. I shall quote his question here and then give my answer below:
WALTER WROTE: "A QUESTION I have is with regard to 1:18 where the 'wrath of God is revealed.' Does that mean the wrath was already there but hidden, God knowing (or perhaps predestinating) men to make evil choices and then revealing His wrath, which was already in existence but somehow hidden until it was 'revealed'? Like the wrath already there and God was hiding it until everybody else could see the evil actions of those men? I would love some feedback from a Calvinist on this one, but for now I'll take feedback from a bunch of fellow SDA seminarians."
I don't know what a Calvinist's response would be, but as far as where I am at in my understanding right now, God's wrath is very different than what I first thought it to be. Previously, when I thought of wrath, I thought of man's wrath--you know, the usual fits of rage, untempered anger, extreme desires to destroy or cause impairment.
The view that has gotten me really thinking views God's wrath as an act of unselfish love and justice and mercy all blended together.
In Romans 1:24, 26, 28 and Romans 2:5-9 we see a manifestation of God's wrath. His wrath seems from these passages to be (as the Scripture puts it) a "giving them up" and "giving them over" to the very things they loved.
Romans 2:5 indicates that it is possible to treasure up wrath and the intensity of this wrath, it would seem from the passage, is related in direct proportion to the hardness of that persons heart and devotion to sin.
Thus in response to your question, as to whether God's wrath is always there and it is just being revealed, I would have to say "yes." God's wrath is always there just as right is always there in contrast to wrong. And God's wrath is revealed when His created beings reach the point of no turning back. They have ran from His grace and slighted His mercy so much that they are imperceptible to its influence anymore. At that point, God gives them up to their lusts, the very desires they were craving for and as a result, their destruction is sure. They crash and burn so to speak.
However, this definition, as I am explaining it does not seem to adequately account for hell fire at least not as I understand it. Scripture tells us God most definitely calls forth hell fire on the wicked. So, I am looking for a "bigger model" as Hanna would put it. None the less, I think it does have some Biblical merit that needs to be considered when dealing with the topic of God's wrath. God's wrath is not arbitrary and it seems to be tempered by the degree of hardness each individuals heart is.
Another aspect tied to this question is: what was it specifically about the Sacrifice of Christ that enabled God to immediately place the “enmity” between the woman and the devil?” Without the sacrifice of Christ, could God have placed that enmity there? If not, then what specifically was it—what shall we call it—that He did for ALL of humanity, both believers and unbelievers alike? It seems to me, in light of Romans 6:16, the Sacrifice of Christ had to provide some sort of a “shield” or “provision” or whatever you want to call it, for ALL of sinful humanity before they were even capable of exercising faith. Whether that shield could be called a certain type of justification, I don’t know. Another question to ask then is this: If Christ did not provide some sort of Universal provision for ALL of humanity, then why is it that the wicked receive a “resurrection” after the millennium? Christ said He is the resurrection and the life, and the wicked had nothing to do with Christ—they outright rejected Him, that’s why they're called the “wicked”, so why are they going to experience a resurrection if indeed Christ’s sacrifice did not provide some sort of Universal provision for all of humanity—even them? Are you catching my point???
I think that Eric raises some very salient points here. The Bible does say that Jesus is the Lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world. (Rev. 13:8) This would indicate to me that in some "already-and-not-yet" way Christ's sacrifice was available to man even BEFORE he sinned. This is indeed universal availability but man still had to CHOOSE to accept the sacrifice.
This is the sense in which the "enmity" was immediately available to Adam after he sinned.
As to the resurrection of the wicked. God is the One who sustains the wicked (including Satan himself) right now because all life comes from HIM. But I don't think that resurrection of the wicked is done in "favor" to them, EXCEPT that they get an opportunity to see God's justice and righteousness.
My comment is about Jonathan Russell's entry with Ch. 1 of Whidden's book.
I agree with him about the unique chronological format of the book and was also very impressed with the introduction. About the 'teeter totter' example, I disagreed with Jon about it being a bad example. For ME it was a good alalogy because it exhibits the tension I often have with perfection and justification. I was raised in different denomination that very much emphasized human effort/perfection (and actually heard books from the holiness movement of EGW's day admonishing total sinlessness and claiming it on Sabbath afternoons which Whidden refered to) and perfection has been a struggle for me in my late teen years when I came back to God (I also came back to the 'God' of my childhood which included an unhealthy view of perfection). So yes, ideally perfection and justification should work together, but my experience there has been and continues to be some teeter totter tension. I think this book will be a real blessing to me in 'rescueing EGW' from my 'EGW thumping' scars:).
This comment is in response to Marcus Vassell’s post on 9/8/07 where he asks the question “what am I set apart to?” I think this is a really important question which each one of us needs to seriously ask ourselves. Marcus raises an important point that it’s possible we could be set apart to a career, professional prestige, or financial security instead of firstly to proclaiming the gospel of God. In the first few chapters of “Ellen White on Salvation” by Whidden, Ellen White stands as a good example of one who constantly sought to find out if she was indeed set apart entirely to God. On p17 we read “…her mind constantly dwelt upon the subject of ‘holiness of heart’. She vividly recollected how she ‘longed above all things to obtain this great blessing’ and have the assurance that she ‘was entirely accepted of God.’” Ellen’s constant seeking finally brought her the assurance she sought. And so it is with us today, our constant and genuine seeking, with the question in mind “what am I set apart to,” will work to refocus our attention on the #1 priority of proclaiming the gospel. I like this question because it’s a sort of “checks and balances” question for our spiritual direction in life.
Walter, thanks for sharing your experiences inside and outside the SDA Church. You make an eloquent and needed appeal for us to be nice as well as correct in our witnessing to the truth. Your experience shows that the tendency to be obnoxious when sharing the faith also exists among some non-Adventists.
My experience also parallels yours when you point out that too often we are the ones who forget Christian courtesy when sharing Christ. Check out this quote from Ellen White. “If we would . . . be kind and courteous and tenderhearted and pitiful, there would be one hundred conversions to the truth where now there is only one” (Testimonies, 9:189).
Dale, I enjoyed your insightful comments concerning the great basic need for salvation. I agree and so basic is that need that it dates back to the Eden experience of our first parents. They had it (the gift of salvation), but lost it, yet they regained it through acceptance. Therefore, that free gift is available also to each of us by faith. In response to your thought provoking question: Is salvation only by faith and faith alone? “Faith without works is dead.” James 2:14-20. Dale, please reflect prayerfully on the following scriptures: James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? The second question: If we have faith what else do we need? Abraham’s experience demonstrated that faith and obedience cannot be separated. The two go hand in hand. “By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.” Heb. 11:8 I’m sure many students exhibited great faith in coming here to study in answer to the call of God. The same may be true of you. Peace and blessings Dale, as you follow on to know the Lord. Your Sister-in-Christ, Geraldine O'Neal
My comment is in regard to Rudolph Sterling’s post.
I empathize with your story of being stressed out about reaching “perfection” as a young person. I only hope that we can be pastors that don’t over-simplify soteriology to the point of scaring kids. This is a good point, and one I'm glad you brought up.
“This work of salvation will reach perfection at the end of time when Jesus comes again.” This line is intriguing to me. How about the New Earth that we read about in Revelation? Will we be done with salvation already? Will there be anything new to learn from Jesus throughout eternity? Will that be a part of salvation? How about the “learning and unlearning” (EGW) that we have to do in heaven? Is that a continuation of the work of salvation?
It is interesting that the topic of Salvation in Christian perspective is complicated. It is not a easy theme to comprehend but it is a wonderful subject to wrestle with. It provides a wide opportunity to learn and to discuss. It challenges human understanding and limitations.
I would like to start mention the two side of salvation. The God’s sovereignty and human freedom. Both great themes are two side of the same coin. They are both position to human salvation. They provide de 8 salvation principles that has been studied and taught in the two main cathedrals: the Calvinistic and the Armenian or as we said in our modern language the orthodox and reformed.
I always thought that I was more orthodox theology oriented than reformed , but during this classes I have discovered that I have in my position a strong reformed concepts. It really caught my attention and it has created in me in deep desire to continue studding this class.
"it raises questions some classic questions about missionary activity: If “men are without excuse” just from looking at nature, how does that relate to the traditional Adventist idea that all people have to hear the name of Jesus before he comes?"
In some minds "Jesus" has become the magic word that will relieve us of our duty. My perception of many missional activities is one of militant precision to enter, present truth and exit rapidly to the next heathen location. We don't love people we simply don't want to come up short on the judgement day. We will proudly quote Christ some statistics of number of countries entered, and sit back waiting for the admiration of Christ for our efforts. People need to see Chrisitanity more often than they need to hear it.
My response for the questions posted by Geoffrey Blake who wrote: “Paul seems to be saying that the general revelation through creation is enough to point people to the one true God. For me, it raises questions some classic questions about missionary activity: If “men are without excuse” just from looking at nature, how does that relate to the traditional Adventist idea that all people have to hear the name of Jesus before he comes? Also, how does “knowledge about Jesus” correlate with salvation? I believe that you’re referring to what Matthew wrote about the preaching of the gospel into all the world and then the end shall come. The everlasting gospel is the love of God for humanity revealed through Jesus Christ which people ought to know in order to respond to God’s invitation of faith positively. One way or the other only God knows how to reach the unreached and let them know about his gift of salvation but he opted to use us his followers to share this to as much as we can. On the second question, “how does knowledge about Jesus correlate with salvation?” Knowledge with Jesus relates with salvation simply because he’s the savior and knowing him is to know God the Father who loved mankind so much. I believe the real issue here boiling is this, how can others relate their salvation by seeing the life of Jesus living in me? Am I active or passive on my faith? Actually, the statement of Paul in Chapter 1:16 saying: “For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.”, plays like a motivator or a guilt tripper for me, depending on where you are in your stage of faith. Dan
Walter wrote: “I welcome your comments on your experiences of the love/acceptence/kindness that draws people to God in comparison of SDA and evangelical churches (please, if your whole life is inside the SDA bubble, your comments are only theory. I want actual experiences inside and out side the church).” Your post brought me back to my actual encounters with SDA bible students and non-SDA’s as well. SDA laymen would love to flock together and study the Word of God and debate among each other just to show who has better information or not. On the other hand, seldom do we see them share these knowledge to those who are unchurched or friends of different faith leading to their conversion. The good thing here is that they love doing things together and may it be next time to the more productive manner. SDA’s are the most well informed people, most of us are guilty of hording, though.
My experiences with non-sda Christians are varied, some are sweet but most of them were bitter-sour, why? Because it was flavored with my own personality, a gasoline engine in terms of temper. But through the years as I kept going and giving Bible studies either one-on-one or in groups, I learned how to slow down in raising my temper but still its there. I found out though that, on one-on-one Bible studies, I am more calm and gentle. But on group discussions, my ears turn red and my back hair stands stiffly whenever the discussion moves from study to condemnation from the other side.
It’s my wish that the same passion for “sharing the truth” on a friendly, loving manner be more reflective of us all both now and the future, ‘til Jesus comes.
I think that He is on the right track asking questions about why are we here. What brought us here may be a call to ministry or it could be something else. What keeps us here? What is our motivation to follow our call? Marcus has reminded me that I need to ask these tough questions and be honest with myself and with God. I believe that this is something that will cause our lives/ministry to be effective. I also appreciated that Marcus pointed out that every person needs to be on their guard against temptation and sin. May we rely on God to give us the Holy Spirit to serve out of love rather than some personal agenda. My prayer is that each of us be separated to the gospel.
I agree that Romans 2 sounds a lot like James. It makes me wonder what Martin Luther was thinking when he embraced Paul’s writings wholeheartedly, and called the book of James “worthless.” Maybe there are more correlations than he originally saw . . .
Something that I think is worth throwing into the mix is the idea of the sheep and the goats that Jesus talks about in Matthew 25. “For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me” (vs. 35-36). These are the people Jesus describes as ones who will be able to experience “eternal life.” So, where does this view play in to all of the articles from the BRI and the chapters in Romans dealing with personal morality, perfection, repentance, etc.?
This comment is for Marcus on your submission of 9-8-07. I really enjoyed how you put the ever growing life. I have also found that the closer I am to God the more I see my own perfections. I have a very hard time even thinking that I would ever be sinless. But I can tell you one thing I am ever so glad that Jesus came to save us from that sin. I have seen the old me and I would never want to go back. I have also questioned what being set aside really means in my life. I know that there are things that I don't do because I belong to Christ but what difference am I making to the world? What does God have for my life? I am not sure that I will ever know the true answers to all of these questions but I am glad that they were raised in your mind and in your writing.
In Response to Walter who said: “To be blunt, I've found that being around some evangelical churches, they may have 'very basic theology' and 'just stick to the simple Salvation message' and not go into prophecy, diet... but the love and acceptence I've felt in their presence tends to be more than I get in 'logical minded' SDA gatherings.”
You are definitely on to something here. I’m an Adventist “lifer” so I’m not the type that you were soliciting responses from. But…I had the privilege of interning for two years in an Adventist church under a pastor who understood this very point and I learned a lot from him. I had the opportunity to go into the homes of people who had been personally destroyed by “logical-minded” (read: judgmental) Adventists. Through a process of experiencing life together, sometimes studying the scriptures together (not trying to prove anything, just learning together), sometimes just processing the emotional pain of life, sometimes just hanging out, I saw people come to the church when they had told me on our first visit that they really weren’t interested. In short, love and acceptance works, even with our own marginal, or even former, members.
In Response to Eric Ollila: I found your definition of wrath fascinating. I have never looked at this issue in this way. You wrote, “His wrath seems from these passages to be (as the Scripture puts it) a "giving them up" and "giving them over" to the very things they loved.” So then wrath is simply letting them do what they willed to do in the first place. I find God’s wrath an active rather than a passive activity. I did a word study and here are three verses I found helpful. Ezra 8:22, “The hand of our God is upon all them for good that seek him; but his power and his wrath is against all them that forsake him.” John 3:36, “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.” Roman 1:18, “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness.” I am not sure if God’s wrath is only revealed to those who have no chance of turning back. “God’s wrath is revealed when His created beings reach the point of no turning back. They have ran from His grace and slighted His mercy so much that they are imperceptible to its influence anymore. At that point, God gives them up to their lusts, the very desires they were craving for and as a result, their destruction is sure.” I refuse to believe anyone is that far. I am open to verses that could point this out but I don’t find that God’s grace is cut off from us unless we are dead or until the day Jesus comes. Often we find those who were previously lost restore their faith in God, just read the Old Testament. This is essentially about God wooing a disobedient people.
My comment is in response to the question Walter asked about the wrath of God.
It was never God’s intention that man would sin and as a result suffer His displeasure. What we always have to be aware of is that God hates sin in all its forms and His wrath is being manifested against it. It takes only the wrath of God to destroy sin, and as it is revealed against it, the wrath of God consumes those who cling to sin without the intention of ever giving it up. Take for example I am from Jamaica, unfortunately my country has been frequently ravished by hurricanes. A couple of weeks a go hurricane Dean devastated the island. Before the hurricane persons living in low line or flooded areas were warned to go to safer places because if not their lives would be in danger. Some heeded this warning and fled to safer grounds while some stayed and sadly suffered death because of stubbornness and disobedience. Similarly, God warns through the presentation of the gospel that man can escape His wrath against sin by having their sins taken away in Jesus; unfortunately, many cling to sin, refuse to go to Jesus and will in the end suffer the full manifestation of God’s wrath. Paul in Rom. 1:18 talks about the wrath about that is being revealed. Revealed in the sense that when man continuously refuse to obey and reject God. He withdraws His protection and allows them to suffer the natural results of their sins. Another way in which His wrath is revealed is at the end of time when He will destroy sin by fire and those who have chosen to be destroyed along with. Therefore, God never predestined man to sin so His wrath would be revealed against them. Neither did He hide His wrath eagerly waiting for man to sin in order to reveal it against them. On the contrary, God’s wrath is directed against sin and those who choose to embrace it will be destroyed with it. Finally, it was because of man’s sins why sin entered into the world. However, God’s ultimate displeasure and disgust against sin was poured out upon Christ at the cross. Thus, it was not guilty man who suffered the full wrath of God but it was His guiltless Son. What wonderful Love! Therefore, no one in the end needs to suffer God’s wrath against sin because Jesus suffered it already. The only way a person will face God’s ultimate wrath is because they turn their backs on His provision of escape through His Son Jesus.
Commenting on "Z. Juniper regarding WHIDDEN CH. 1, "Laughable logic"
Quote: "It is my desire that the church once again search diligently to know Christ, not search to know how they are right. If we are truly seeking to glorify Christ, we will desire to exalt Him not ourselves."
I accept the final paragraph of this comment as reproduced above as Juiper's summary argument.
Talking about laughable logic, it would be counterproductive to study the Bible to prove an already held belief rather than searching the Scriptures like the Bereans to "see if those things were so". (Acts 17:11)
So are most Adventist guilty of proving they are right or searching for the "right" from the Bible?
I agree that often we as church can forget to be kind while we are proving others "wrong" but the Scriptures still has to be searched diligently and "truth" and right doctrines make a difference.
Truth sets you free and allows you to worship the TRUE God, so we cannot have true worship without the truth about who we are worshiping.
I agree with Juniper that we must be careful that we are worshiping Jesus who is the truth personified but can we know Him without the written truth about Him?
Jesus and "right" or righteousness are not opposable concepts.
In Response to Jonathan Russell: I agree with your comment. Often, because we feel we have the truth, Adventists are quick to give simple pat answers to questions and problems which need a more thorough analysis. This can be frustrating for those who are really seeking a thoughtful answer. I find that relationships in Bible studies and evangelism often are more important than the study itself. Look at the Mormons or Jehovah’s Witnesses’ they evangelize mainly through relationships and even if you can convince them that their beliefs are incorrect they still won’t leave because they won’t leave their family. Note: I am not saying Doctrine is unimportant or should be a low proirity.
It was nice to see some light hearted fun here. I'm not sure how I would feel if my theological emphasis was on 'the sovereignty of God,' but the song cracking me up anyways (politically correct or not). You rock man!
I agree that it was really neat to see how even a prophet struggled with her salvation and relationship with God. As for the faith question (is salvation solely with faith), I think faith is the basis which Paul so repeatedly and strongly asserts, yet there is a tension there of actions following or actions being integral. The Bible is very clear we are not saved by works, yet there are many Bible stories where works seems to be the 'turning point' or 'critical point' of Salvation. Such stories include the parable of seperating sheep from goats (salvation determined by works), the rich young ruler (what do you lack... sell everything - that's an act) yet Jesus also tells Nicodemas he must be born again (an act of faith?). If I had to choose one option I think faith would be it, but the Bible seems to repeatedly remind us that faith alone is not enough (i.e. James - 'faith w/o works is dead').
Tim Peters wrote: "I have a problem with the idea in the article that a person must put away their sins before they can be converted and justified. I believe that people are justified when they accept Jesus and He changes them as they grow together. The article points out that God is the one who takes the initiative to make salvation possible. It is interesting to see from verses like 2 Peter 3:9 that there is a response of repentance that is man’s part in the salvation equation." I believe that you're referring to the last part of the BRI article on legal justification. It's true that justification is God's act but it's man's choice to be justified as made clear in the article discussion. The initiative of God and man's response to God's initiative are interactive. They come along by choice. Just like the taking of the dirty garment is necessary to keep the new garment clean and pure, God wants us to decide to not mix the two together, this reminds me of not putting new wine in an old wine skin, or disaster will happen. Sin and righteousness cannot live together in one person, the person then must decide which one he will live with.
This comment is about Garfield's post. He asked "does acceptance of Christ require demonstration of emotions (tears,joy, guilt, sorrow)?"
I believe that God created us each differently and does not expect the same reaction out of everyone when people accept Christ. We each have different personalities that effect what our response is when we interact with Christ. I am thankful that we are unique and God made us to know Him different ways whether it be emotionally or intellectually or in other ways.
Walter, This is the second attempt to reply to your reflection paper on Salvation. After my devotional meditation this morning, The Holy Spirit impressed me to l read what I had written before closing out my devotion. So I went and turned the computer on and much to my surprise, there was no comment. I assumed that it was sent because I sent it the same as usual, only this time I did not paste my comments from another document, I typed it directly into the comment section. What happened to it? I felt bad until I went to PMC today, because I heard much of what was included there. (1 John 1:9), which to me is the way to Salvation. If we confess … So now starts the process of re-entering the information. But already the Lord is leading me in another direction, so hold tight. I remember starting with asking you if you had ever seen a poster with a cat with his paws outstretched on a surface which looks like a wall. As it appears that he is about to slide down the wall, you look up at the heading which says “HANG IN THERE.” I feel there are many in the “church” that are just barely holding on. There are some who have become so disillusioned that they leave….some so bitter that they vow never to return. I know because I meet them frequently when I’m canvassing. Usually, after listening to them, I tell them that “It’s time to come home now.” I want them to know Jesus is waiting for them to come home. The thing that people need to realize is that they are not just leaving the “church,” they are turning their backs on Jesus. I have been blessed to see or been told that some returned after surrendering to Jesus. Although there have been many unpleasant experiences for me, Jesus has been a faithful friend. His word never promised that it would be easy or pleasant, He just promised to be with us. If you go into a church, whatever else is going on, if you sincerely desire the presence of God, He will not fail you. Also I’m convinced this ship is going through because the Captain, Jesus said it would though his messenger, E.G. White. Once I was driving on the interstate, happened to have the radio on, flipping stations, and just as I came up the exit ramp, there was a minister on the radio speaking about the satanic influences surrounding much of the music. That perked my interest because he was calling for people to come together and fast and pray for a week that God would do something about the crime etc. And the Lord spoke to me to go. The over populated city that I lived in is Decatur, Ga; a part of Metro Atlanta… infested with all kinds of horrible crimes…so much so that shortly before coming here, I was now riding Marta, because The Lord had miraculously spared me in a terrible auto accident. Praise God! On this particular day, near to an area where we distributed tracts, with people standing around, there lay a young man who had been shot, and all I could do then was to pray concerning his soul condition, while wondering if he might have been one who accepted the tracts among others in a group of young men previously. I included this to show you the need for this prayer and fast that was called. I went as I had been instructed to do and was shocked to see that there were so few people there. This preacher who had spoken out against not just the degrading rap music but also some of what is offered up as praise to God in the “church.” He had a music background and I had a wonderful time there singing and praising God. Many testimonies were given and a lot of intercessory prayer was offered and we were there until the wee, wee hours of the morning. The last evening that I went, when I drove up on the parking lot, I noticed a man sitting in a car and the Lord spoke to me to invite him in. I told him about the prayer meeting and surprisingly he got out of the car and came in. He said he wanted to talk, so we sat near the back. He confessed that he had been unfaithful to his wife and she had put him out, and throughout the conversation, I kept hearing suicide. So we knelt and I prayed and the Holy Spirit spoke to me to let him pray. When I asked him to pray he confessed that he didn’t know how to pray, had never heard The Lord’s Prayer. I had to teach him to pray and showed him where he could pray from the Bible until he learned it. I told the pastor just simply he needed a place to stay. This pastor had a ministry of housing and providing work for homeless…people who had been on drugs; some testified that after the fasting they were able to come off the drugs. One young lady who had been a prostitute, cried in my arms about the change that had taken place in her life. Oh, the young man that I spoke earlier about stayed there for a while, until he found another residence. He said he didn’t want to pressure his wife because he understood her feelings. I’m thankful that God in His mercy drew him. Just as I was about to leave for camp meeting, I went to get the mail and there was a letter from this Pastor inviting me into their church family. I prayed asking the Lord how to answer it. The Holy Spirit spoke to me to give a testimony. When I returned from camp meeting I wrote, first explaining this annual event of prayer, fasting, soul searching, preaching, praise, preparation for community service and other missionary outreach. The theme that year was “ENDOWED – EMPOWERED – IGNITED” “ But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you; and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.” I told him how much I appreciated his ministry of love---caring for those who have lost their way; also rebuking the evil works of the enemy of souls, of exhorting holiness --- “for without holiness no man shall see God,” of praise – for God is worthy of all praise honor and glory. I told him the prayer and fasting meant so much to me. And sitting at home one night I confessed to God how much I had come to love this flock. I told him that while on my knees one night seeking God for a way to respond to the letter, that the Holy Spirit spoke “Give a testimony.” I began by telling him that I had been attending a tent meeting where God spoke to me through someone whom I never saw before or after that one meeting, saying “Don’t join this church unless the Holy Spirit tells you to.” The sermon had alluded to putting God to the test, and remembering the words of the prayer coming from the preacher, “Lord, give them no rest until they surrender all to you.” Reflecting on what the mysterious lady had spoken to me following benediction (concerning The Holy Spirit), I decided when I went home (following the meeting) that I would pray and ask God myself to reveal to me whether this was truth and whether He wanted me to join this church. Remembering the preacher’s prayer, I prayed “Lord, trouble my dreams and give an answer. That same night, I had a troublesome dream of two ferocious black dogs chasing me. As I ran I saw stairs in a building and as I approached the stairs, I could see a man sitting as it were at a desk, where he appeared to be writing. I looked back, the dogs were close to me but had stopped now in retreat, mouths drooling with the sharpest teeth. I awoke and the next night the same dream with the black dogs chasing me. Again I ran into a place (building) with the stairs, at the top of the stairs again the same man, dressed in white (the purest of white) with white beautiful hair. This time he stood up and handed me a letter. As I climbed the stairs there was such PEACE in his presence (words are not adequate to describe the peace) the closer I got the more peace and suddenly I looked around and the dogs were there but even their expression had changed (subdued – no more sharp teeth). Praise God! I thanked God and prayed that the troubled dreams would cease. They did – I had received my answer. This of course would not be my first baptism, for I sought Christ early as a child at the age of seven. May be I was still running from God, because I found it necessary to go out of town to visit on the Sabbath that I was to be baptized. Then too, my mother had heard such terrible things about Adventist that she pleaded with me not to join. While I was in another town visiting I began to witness about how real God is. As we sat and talked a storm arose – it rained so hard that water started to come into the house. I prayed and promised God if He would permit the storm to cease and allow me to get out of it safely, I would go back and be baptized. He did; and I kept my word and was baptized the next Sabbath. Jesus is still offering this invitation in Matt.11:28 – 30 “Come unto me all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn of me; f or I am meek and lowly in heart and ye shall find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.” Although this has deviated from the original comments that I sent, I feel it was the Lord’s will for me to share it as a witness to myself. “We have nothing to fear for the future, except as we forget the way the Lord has led us, and His teaching in our past history.” Life Sketches, 196 Many have not experienced the Love of Jesus, but Christ can use people like you, Walter with His love in their hearts to show the love of the Father, the Son and The Holy Spirit and the entire heavenly host. Love is a very necessary part of evangelism because it involves sharing. Sharing the good NEWS (the acronym that the Holy Spirit put on my heart for (North East West South)…tell it everywhere that THE KING Is Coming… SOON. See I feel like Peter in Jn. 6:68, Lord, to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life. Blessings and Peace! Geraldine
Walter, This is the second attempt to reply to your reflection paper on Salvation. After my devotional meditation this morning, The Holy Spirit impressed me to l read what I had written before closing out my devotion. So I went and turned the computer on and much to my surprise, there was no comment. I assumed that it was sent because I sent it the same as usual, only this time I did not paste my comments from another document, I typed it directly into the comment section. What happened to it? I felt bad because until I went to PMC today, because I heard much of what was included there. (1 John 1:9), which to me is the way to Salvation. If we confess … So now starts the process of re-entering the information. But already the Lord is leading me in another direction, so hold tight. I remember starting with asking you if you had ever seen a poster with a cat with his paws outstretched on a surface which looks like a wall. As it appears that he is about to slide down the wall, you look up at the heading which says “HANG IN THERE.” I feel there are many in the “church” that are just barely holding on. There are some who have become so disillusioned that they leave….some so bitter that they vow never to return. I know because I meet them frequently when I’m canvassing. Usually, after listening to them, I tell them that “It’s time to come home now.” I want them to know Jesus is waiting for them to come home. The thing that people need to realize is that they are not just leaving the “church,” they are turning their backs on Jesus. I have been blessed to see or been told that some returned after surrendering to Jesus. Although there have been many unpleasant experiences for me, Jesus has been a faithful friend. His word never promised that it would be easy or pleasant, He just promised to be with us. If you go into a church, whatever else is going on, if you sincerely desire the presence of God, He will not fail you. Also I’m convinced this ship is going through because the Captain, Jesus said it would though his messenger, E.G. White. Once I was driving on the interstate, happened to have the radio on, flipping stations, and just as I came up the exit ramp, there was a minister on the radio speaking about the satanic influences surrounding much of the music. That perked my interest because he was calling for people to come together and fast and pray for a week that God would do something about the crime etc. And the Lord spoke to me to go. The over populated city that I lived in is Decatur, Ga; a part of Metro Atlanta… infested with all kinds of horrible crimes…so much so that shortly before coming here, I was now riding Marta, because The Lord had miraculously spared me in a terrible auto accident. Praise God! On this particular day, near to an area where we distributed tracts, with people standing around, there lay a young man who had been shot, and all I could do then was to pray concerning his soul condition, while wondering if he might have been one who accepted the tracts among others in a group of young men previously. I included this to show you the need for this prayer and fast that was called. I went as I had been instructed to do and was shocked to see that there were so few people there. This preacher who had spoken out against not just the degrading rap music but also some of what is offered up as praise to God in the “church.” He had a music background and I had a wonderful time there singing and praising God. Many testimonies were given and a lot of intercessory prayer was offered and we were there until the wee, wee hours of the morning. The last evening that I went, when I drove up on the parking lot, I noticed a man sitting in a car and the Lord spoke to me to invite him in. I told him about the prayer meeting and surprisingly he got out of the car and came in. He said he wanted to talk, so we sat near the back. He confessed that he had been unfaithful to his wife and she had put him out, and throughout the conversation, I kept hearing suicide. So we knelt and I prayed and the Holy Spirit spoke to me to let him pray. When I asked him to pray he confessed that he didn’t know how to pray, had never heard The Lord’s Prayer. I had to teach him to pray and showed him where he could pray from the Bible until he learned it. I told the pastor just simply he needed a place to stay. This pastor had a ministry of housing and providing work for homeless…people who had been on drugs; some testified that after the fasting they were able to come off the drugs. One young lady who had been a prostitute, cried in my arms about the change that had taken place in her life. Oh, the young man that I spoke earlier about stayed there for a while, until he found another residence. He said he didn’t want to pressure his wife because he understood her feelings. I’m thankful that God in His mercy drew him. Just as I was about to leave for camp meeting, I went to get the mail and there was a letter from this Pastor inviting me into their church family. I prayed asking the Lord how to answer it. The Holy Spirit spoke to me to give a testimony. When I returned from camp meeting I wrote, first explaining this annual event of prayer, fasting, soul searching, preaching, praise, preparation for community service and other missionary outreach. The theme that year was “ENDOWED – EMPOWERED – IGNITED” “ But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you; and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.” I told him how much I appreciated his ministry of love---caring for those who have lost their way; also rebuking the evil works of the enemy of souls, of exhorting holiness --- “for without holiness no man shall see God,” of praise – for God is worthy of all praise honor and glory. I told him the prayer and fasting meant so much to me. And sitting at home one night I confessed to God how much I had come to love this flock. I told him that while on my knees one night seeking God for a way to respond to the letter, that the Holy Spirit spoke “Give a testimony.” I began by telling him that I had been attending a tent meeting where God spoke to me through someone whom I never saw before or after that one meeting, saying “Don’t join this church unless the Holy Spirit tells you to.” The sermon had alluded to putting God to the test, and remembering the words of the prayer coming from the preacher, “Lord, give them no rest until they surrender all to you.” Reflecting on what the mysterious lady had spoken to me following benediction (concerning The Holy Spirit), I decided when I went home (following the meeting) that I would pray and ask God myself to reveal to me whether this was truth and whether He wanted me to join this church. Remembering the preacher’s prayer, I prayed “Lord, trouble my dreams and give an answer. That same night, I had a troublesome dream of two ferocious black dogs chasing me. As I ran I saw stairs in a building and as I approached the stairs, I could see a man sitting as it were at a desk, where he appeared to be writing. I looked back, the dogs were close to me but had stopped now in retreat, mouths drooling with the sharpest teeth. I awoke and the next night the same dream with the black dogs chasing me. Again I ran into a place (building) with the stairs, at the top of the stairs again the same man, dressed in white (the purest of white) with white beautiful hair. This time he stood up and handed me a letter. As I climbed the stairs there was such PEACE in his presence (words are not adequate to describe the peace) the closer I got the more peace and suddenly I looked around and the dogs were there but even their expression had changed (subdued – no more sharp teeth). Praise God! I thanked God and prayed that the troubled dreams would cease. They did – I had received my answer. This of course would not be my first baptism, for I sought Christ early as a child at the age of seven. May be I was still running from God, because I found it necessary to go out of town to visit on the Sabbath that I was to be baptized. Then too, my mother had heard such terrible things about Adventist that she pleaded with me not to join. While I was in another town visiting I began to witness about how real God is. As we sat and talked a storm arose – it rained so hard that water started to come into the house. I prayed and promised God if He would permit the storm to cease and allow me to get out of it safely, I would go back and be baptized. He did; and I kept my word and was baptized the next Sabbath. Jesus is still offering this invitation in Matt.11:28 – 30 “Come unto me all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn of me; f or I am meek and lowly in heart and ye shall find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.” Although this has deviated from the original comments that I sent, I feel it was the Lord’s will for me to share it as a witness to myself. “We have nothing to fear for the future, except as we forget the way the Lord has led us, and His teaching in our past history.” Life Sketches, 196 Many have not experienced the Love of Jesus, but Christ can use people like you, Walter with His love in their hearts to show the love of the Father, the Son and The Holy Spirit and the entire heavenly host. Love is a very necessary part of evangelism because it involves sharing. Sharing the good NEWS (the acronym that the Holy Spirit put on my heart for (North East West South)…tell it everywhere that THE KING Is Coming… SOON. See I feel like Peter in Jn. 6:68, Lord, to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life. Blessings and Peace! Geraldine
A comment on Freddy de los Santos reflection on Jan Paulsen's "Salvation by Faith". Enjoyed your response...your question... "How much is faith worth?" made a powerful point. A million dollars couldn't help...ahhh that makes me smile. I couldn't help but think about the fact that a dollar is nothing other than a "promissary note". A promise from our government's treasury department...a promise based on a flimsy economy...a promise from a group of men. It's sad how quick we are to depend on the promises of man, and how slow we are to depend on the promises of God. Unfortunately it seems we fail to realize this until we're confronted by tragic circumstances of some sort...something that makes us realize how helpless we really are. So in response to your question, "How much is faith worth?"...I agree with you...I believe it's worth it all...it's the "Pearl of Great Price" (Matthew 13:45,46) After all it was "by faith [that Abraham]he sojourned in the land of promise, as [in] a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise." Enjoyed it...thank you.
First, I agree that I see myself when reading Ellen White’s journey of faith. It is great to see that she wasn’t some super-human, but truly had a faith adventure as we all do.
Second, if you’re going to make a comment like your last line: “ . . . for the life of me I can’t figure out how intelligent people (scholars) come up with some of the concepts that they do,” it would probably be wise to number one, give some substantive reasons for your statement and number two, not group “scholars” all together. These changes would make your rhetoric more palatable.
Hi Daniel, it's Mika… as you stated, “HYPOCRISY is a big issue with Paul” which I agree with, although I'm not sure about the following statement, “there is a great need to talk the talk and walk the talk at the same time.”
I received Paul's harsh words on top see in the sense that there is nothing we can do to gain the right to judge, even if we do walk the walk or talk the talk. I kind of saw the “hypocrisy” term against those that act like God (in judgment) and are not God. These are hypocrites.
Hi Chuen, when I read “The author points out the reason of the disasters why we have. Fall of Adam and Eve is the initial or original reason.” as I read your statement, I reflect upon what was said in class about the “original sin" in reference to your use of the “original reason.”
Hanna stated that maybe the “original sin” could be the sin could be considered as that sin was committed in heaven, next to the throne of God Himself. I think that the sin problem here (on earth) is not the same as a sin problem that was done in heaven. To solve the heaven-sin problem is really the solution to the original sin problem. This is when sin will not rise again.
“…the balance is between being given victory over the enslavement of Satan through Christ’s victory and still being a sinner who sins in this world.” It's quite paradox isn’t it. Maybe this questions the linear-ness of Justification, Sanctification, and Glorification. I suspect most of us would agree that we are given victory (justification) and the Lord is still working on us as we struggle in this life (sanctification). I think as we dive more into the multi-tenses of J, S and G that Hanna raises in class, may help the tension you referenced as well as help us with a larger model.
Tim Peters I like what you said about the fact that many times we stress the law and forget about righteousness. I believe that righteousness and the law should be taught together and that one should not be stressed over the other.
Tim said ..."I realize that we constantly struggle with sin. I am trying to see where the balance is between being given victory over the enslavement of Satan through Christ’s victory and still being a sinner who sins in this world. Please help me with this tension that exists in our every day real life."
Indeed Tim has made this issue very practical. If our theology doesn't have practical implication then we are doomed. We all want to know how we can gain victory over sin even if we got an "F" in the Salvation Doctrine course. :)
I don't see Jesus victory on the cross as releasing me from the personal vicotry over sin. Even he said that we all must take up the cross and follow Him. I see His victory as one that I could NEVER hope to win because I wasn't qualified to even attempt paying the price for my sins.
Yet I see Christ victory as assurance that I could make it because a WAY of ESCAPE has been made for me. Even if I lived a perfect life and never broke one commandment I would still need Jesus because a sinner cannot atone for a sinner.
But the struggle that Paul describes in Romans 7:14ff will always be felt in our "flesh" because we still are exposed to the temptations of the enemy. But we are given the assurance that "God will with the temptation provide a way of escape".
My battle involves the will. Will I surrender my will to Christ or not? I don't see my battle as being with sin directly but with SURRENDERING my will to Jesus so that He will "do His good pleasure" in my life.
I support the comments of my colleague,Ray Edwards, "This justification is not something that took place universally at the cross but is effected in the life of the sinner as he accepts the salvation provided at the cross by expressed and demonstrated faith in Jesus Christ. Any attempt by God to justify even the sinner who didn’t ask for it would give Satan an argument against God’s justice. “Available” and “accepted” are two very different views of justification. I concur with his line of reasoning and may dare to add that the enemy would be able to label God as 'unfair.'Thank Heavens He is not!!!!
In Response to Thomas Masimba on Ellen White: You said, “The[re] was a teaching that , full salvation was instant sanctification. To relate that to my clas[s] work based on scriptural evidences, sanctification and justification both are in three phases. past, persent, and future. Upon the biblical text evidences, given my view is that the teaching was not only untheological but also satanic”.
I agreed with your view that our theological views need to be holistic. This is very important and helps us to avoid theological mistakes and it also helps us filter out our own biases. I however do not feel that “full salvation as instant sanctification” is “not only untheological but also satanic”. As believers grow and come into a fuller theological understanding we find that some of our beliefs were wrong or misguided, I do not think that they must be satanic or demonic if they were wrong. Not only that but we have had many beliefs that were wrong throughout our church history that were theological. Something that is theological is simply the studying God, it does not denote the rightness or wrongness of belief. I think we have to be careful not to demonize those who do not believe exactly as we do.
This is in response to what Garfield said... Chapter 2- Ellen White On Salvation- Conversion, Sanctification and Early Ministry. BRI Document- How Perfect Is Perfect-Or is Christian Perfection Possible?
I think you did a fabulous job in summerizing what Whidden had to say about EGW struggles with Salvation. I do have one thing to say that I am not sure that I agree on. I don't think that God makes up for our deficiencies. If that were true then we would be able to say that we did some of the work for our salvation. I believe that we are unable to do a single thing right. God has to do the complete work of salvation in us. Our job is complete and total surrender to Him. We are born with a sinful human nature so that every instinct that we have is wrong. Everything that we do is at emnity with God. We are unable to change this human nature in the very least. When God takes over our lives we give up any control that we have. He changes us. He controls us, and through Him we become different people. We can't do this work because who we are is the opposite of what God is. I hope I made this clear. These are huge topics and I am not always the best person to explain them. Thanks so much for your submission. Jamie
Comments on 1 Timothy 4:10 Ángel Manuel Rodríguez It is good for us to have a Savior Jesus Christ, Angel is very detail to explain the text of 1 Tim 4:10. I agree that we can be saved for we accept Him as our Savior and through His forgiveness. He is willing to all human being’s Savior, but not everything willing to accept Him. Angel mentioned : The key term in the text is the word "specially" (Greek málista). A proper understanding of it will solve the problems. The word can be translated "specially, mostly, above all" (e.g ., Acts 20:38; Phil 4:22). Recent studies made on the usage of this term in Greek papyrus letters have shown that this particle was also used to define in a more precise way what preceded it and could be rendered into English as "that is, in other words" or by similar expressions. This usage is found in several passages in the NT ( e.g., 2 Tim 4:13; Titus 1:10). If we use that translation in 1 Tim 4:10 the interpretational problems disappear: "Because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, that is, of those who believe." The phrase "all men" would then mean "all sorts of people," possibly Jews and Gentiles, who accept Christ. There is no need to introduce in the text the idea of universalism or of a legal universal salvation which has no immediate effect on the final destiny of the individual. “That is, of those who believe” are we the one of the men to believe ? It is very important to believe Jesus as our Savior and follow His steps.
Romans Ch 2 For the first part of Ch2 it’s talk about the judgment. From the verses 6-11, talk about what we should do and what we should not do. Since “God “will give to each person according to what he has done.” We have to take the result for our life. But Paul mentioned that “To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. If we always doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, then we will not have chance to put ourselves into the temptation. We are sinner, we have the tendency toward to commit sin. But if we always do God’s work, think His mercy and words, our tendencies will toward Jesus. Then we will have more power to resist the temptations. I think it is really what we should do.
Ellen White on Salvation Ch1-2 Ch1. The author mentioned background of the doctrine of salvation of Adventist. The controversial issues are from justification by faith and perfection. Finally the author made a summary these issues. This balance between justification and perfection can be likened to a seesaw. Sometimes one side is up and the other down, but a good teeter-totter experience will always feature two evenly matched participants complementing and balancing each other. For Ellen White, the balancing act began early in her Christian experience. It showed me a history background about the doctrine of salvation of Adventist. It will make me have more interesting to study it.
Ch2 Conversion, “Sanctification,” and Early Ministry From the history to understand the salvation concept of Ellen White, it will make us more easy to understand about her understanding of the issue. One of the important points of Ellen White’s early experience and ministry of salvartion is her own conversion “sanctification” crises and experience with Holiness fanaticism cannot be stressed enough for their critically formative contribution to her later doctrinal development. The other point is Ellen White’s confrontations with the hypocritical Holiness fanatics would have a marked impact on the later modification of her understanding of sanctification and perfection.
In response to jjwalper on Romans chapter 2 and judging others for the same things that we do. I like how he brought out this principle and not judging others. I've noticed in myself the very annoying tendency that as soon as I start doing something 'right' like exercising every day or keeping the Sabbath a certain way, that automatically my brain starts assuming that everyone else should come to the same standards right NOW that have taken me 28 yrs. I catch myself doing this and it's like 'hey dummy, worry about your own issues and let those people decide for themselves!' It reminds of EGW in S2C who repeatedly states that 'another's sins won't save you.' Worry about watering your own lawn and let the HS do the convicting!
1Pet. 2:12 Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us.
Matt. 5:16 In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.
I am intrigued by the way you present The ruler who is Christ implying an ontological study The rule which is the Scripture with epistemology The ruled which is the Church which requires an axiological question: So what? The realm which is the planet where the message needs to be relevant. I have read your book and basically it is based on supreme revelation, special revelation, and general revelation. In other words, it is all about Jesus, Scripture, and Nature. Even though I have some difficulty in reading “understanding the Scripture” by Dr. Reid, yet I am not going to address that issue now. One of the questions we have discussed in the class so far is “Does sin reveal God?” During the next class we have said that Sin shows us our need for God, reveals the glory, reveals God’s love; sin reveals who God is but, sin itself does not direct reveal God. The Possibility of sin reveals Him but the actuality of sin does not. I have been thinking about that concept and when I look at it in a holistic way it bothers me. Why? God is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent. Did not He see that by creating Satan he will have fought with Michael, lost the battle in heaven for Satan to be dropped on the planet earth and then seduced human family by introducing sin on earth? Did he create Lucifer knowing that He will save the people anyway? What all those who are going to die because of Satan choice? Is that love in the first place? Where did love start? What I say to someone whose health is being deteriorated by cancer? Are we paying for what our ancestors did? And God is love. I think God loves me, but I am not certain that He love everyone else. It seems to me sin reveals God’s love and His wrath. The God who loves can hate, too. The God who delivers can condemn, too. Where did love start being “love”= God? I am not so much concerned about what took place in the garden o f Eden. My concern is where is God’s omnipotence in Creating Lucifer? In order for Love to be it is understood that there have to be possibility of choice. It would have been dictator of God if he had destroyed the first disobedient ones including Lucifer. Where was His foreknowledge of the possibility of sin? As being who will cease to be, If I know for fact impregnating my wife she will give birth to a thief I will never impregnate her. I want a better society than that. I would like to contribute for a better community and not for worst. If I go ahead and beget a daughter knowing she may become a thief or she may not. Any how I will talk to her if she listens, good for her; If she does, too bad. I don’t understand that philosophy of love. I almost think that human being is innocent when it comes to good and evil. Two great forces are started a fight in some distant territory we end being victims of those guys fight. We did not know anything about in the first place, did we? We are found in great dilemma. Satan is pulling us back. Jesus is calling out to us. Satan is going to go to hell with his followers. God offers eternal life through Jesus Christ, His Son. I only have two choices. It is either or. It is not neither nor. If the latter had been the case I would have refused to get involved into those entities I didn’t know anything about. It appears obvious to me that one force is more powerful. Therefore I want to play safe. I belong to Jesus. I accept Him as my shepherd, lawyer, Redeemer, Lord, and Savior. I wonder what God was thinking. I mean , there is so much suffering in this world. Couldn’t all of that be prevented? May we all find favor in God’s sight! Authored by Montes Estinphil
I am intrigued by the way you present The ruler who is Christ implying an ontological study The rule which is the Scripture with epistemology The ruled which is the Church which requires an axiological question: So what? The realm which is the planet where the message needs to be relevant. I have read your book and basically it is based on supreme revelation, special revelation, and general revelation. In other words, it is all about Jesus, Scripture, and Nature. Even though I have some difficulty in reading “understanding the Scripture” by Dr. Reid, yet I am not going to address that issue now. One of the questions we have discussed in the class so far is “Does sin reveal God?” During the next class we have said that Sin shows us our need for God, reveals the glory, reveals God’s love; sin reveals who God is but, sin itself does not direct reveal God. The Possibility of sin reveals Him but the actuality of sin does not. I have been thinking about that concept and when I look at it in a holistic way it bothers me. Why? God is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent. Did not He see that by creating Satan he will have fought with Michael, lost the battle in heaven for Satan to be dropped on the planet earth and then seduced human family by introducing sin on earth? Did he create Lucifer knowing that He will save the people anyway? What all those who are going to die because of Satan choice? Is that love in the first place? Where did love start? What I say to someone whose health is being deteriorated by cancer? Are we paying for what our ancestors did? And God is love. I think God loves me, but I am not certain that He love everyone else. It seems to me sin reveals God’s love and His wrath. The God who loves can hate, too. The God who delivers can condemn, too. Where did love start being “love”= God? I am not so much concerned about what took place in the garden o f Eden. My concern is where is God’s omnipotence in Creating Lucifer? In order for Love to be it is understood that there have to be possibility of choice. It would have been dictator of God if he had destroyed the first disobedient ones including Lucifer. Where was His foreknowledge of the possibility of sin? As being who will cease to be, If I know for fact impregnating my wife she will give birth to a thief I will never impregnate her. I want a better society than that. I would like to contribute for a better community and not for worst. If I go ahead and beget a daughter knowing she may become a thief or she may not. Any how I will talk to her if she listens, good for her; If she does, too bad. I don’t understand that philosophy of love. I almost think that human being is innocent when it comes to good and evil. Two great forces are started a fight in some distant territory we end being victims of those guys fight. We did not know anything about in the first place, did we? We are found in great dilemma. Satan is pulling us back. Jesus is calling out to us. Satan is going to go to hell with his followers. God offers eternal life through Jesus Christ, His Son. I only have two choices. It is either or. It is not neither nor. If the latter had been the case I would have refused to get involved into those entities I didn’t know anything about. It appears obvious to me that one force is more powerful. Therefore I want to play safe. I belong to Jesus. I accept Him as my shepherd, lawyer, Redeemer, Lord, and Savior. I wonder what God was thinking. I mean , there is so much suffering in this world. Couldn’t all of that be prevented? May we all find favor in God’s sight! Authored by Montes Estinphil
All the questions that you raise are valid. The final answers to the questions are harder to discover. Sin is rebellion against God and so does not directly reveal God. At the same time, since sin is rebellion against God, it indirectly reveals what God is not. God is not a sinner.
Even if sin had not arisen, the possibility of sin would have indirectly revealed God as one who allows for that possibility. God is free and he created free beings in his image. Sin did not have to arise in order for God to be revealed as he is. At the same time, God chooses to continue to reveal himself to sinners in the midst of their rebellion.
Why should we bring children into the world if we believe the Scripture teaching that all are born in sin? I think the answer is that Christians believe the Scripture teaching that children who have inherited sin from Adam and their ancestors, may chose a different inheritance from Christ, the Second Adam who did not sin. Those who have been born in sin may be reborn in righteousness.
There is a tension between a God of love who allows the first sinner to live and the apparent lack of love in allowing that first sinner to cause so much horror on those who come afterward. Part of the answer may be that the horror that comes afterward is not completely the responsibility of the first sinner but is shared by others who continue in sin and refuse the way of salvation.
At the same time, the question remains: why doesn’t God do more to remove the consequences of sin when it affects those who have not themselves earned those consequences? Part of the answer may be that God does reduce the consequences of sin. If he did not, the sinner would die immediately and would not produce any descendants who could then suffer as a result.
What about the rest of the answer? There is more that I could say given more time. However, even my best answers would not be the final answer. God himself will give the final answers in the final judgment when he will be shown to be just in justifying sinners and in all his actions. Until then, we walk by faith, not by sight.
In response to Dr. Hanna's response to Montes about God being revealed by sin...
As usual Dr. Hanna stretched my mind with his comments. For example, sinners already are not suffering full consequences of sin or else they would die. That has kind of been a challenge to answer for when working with bright young people with some very hard questions. Also, about bringing kids into the world who inherit sin, but CAN CHOOSE Christ’s inheritance as well.
One thing I will disagree with that Dr. Hanna about is that ‘sin does not reveal God’s character.’ I agree that it reveals what God is not, but like a difficulty or challenge that a human goes through REVEALS to a deeper level their character, does not sin and the pain and hatred caused by rebelling against God reveal his character in more certain terms than was revealed in heaven during the original rebellion? I think it is hard or even offensive to think of anything good coming from sin, but just because we do not like the idea, that does not make it un-true. Do you not think that those who live in eternity after the great controversy is ended will have a huge confirmation that God is indeed fair and just, even if the suggestion would (hypothetically) arise that He is not? Does not the fact that sin arose to begin with show that in the minds of the 1/3 of the angels there was enough room to doubt His character (and perhaps confuse even the loyal 2/3)? In contrast, after this whole sin episode, there will still be free choice, but that confusion or ‘room to doubt’ has been removed, God’s character has been so confirmed and proven that sin will never arise again.
Rm 5:20 …But where sin increased, grace increased all the more… Rm 28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him,[a] who[b] have been called according to his purpose.
To me this seems to say that good can come from bad, even a clearer and stronger confirmation that God indeed is love.
Salvation was for human race not only for Jews, God give the Jews the privilege to spread out the message of salvation to the entire world but they kept it for themselves. In God mind was not different everyone need salvation before His eye Jews and gentile, that is why, when Jesus came He meet every kind of people He did not reject anybody. An example of this is Cornelius he was gentile but God send an angels to his house to tell him that his prayer were heard in heaven, it is truth that God choose Israel and give them a mission that they misunderstood, but salvation was made for all.
Debbedo, I believe that a person's perfection is really Jesus' perfection. They are perfect by letting Jesus blood wash and cleanse them. That person will also be letting Jesus live through them. There is a connection. I appreciated the questions that you raised because they remind us to take our eyes off of ourselves when we talk about being perfect. I think that you made a good point that it is possible to be perfect to God and be imperfect at the same time. I hope that we each seek perfection in Jesus without getting caught up with ourselves.
Marcus Malcolm Vassell Dr. Martin Hanna Doctrine of Salvation September 28, 2007 Reflections First let me begin with the pretty lengthy statement on “original sin” offered by Gerhard Pfandi. While I appreciate his comparative treatment of the historical and theological dimensions of original sin, I am a bit perplexed by his conclusions drawn on the destiny of newborn babies who die shortly after birth. I can see he arrives at his conclusion (logically) but I believe that his treatment is too narrow, too limited in that it does not allow for God’s foreknowledge and grace to save the soul of a newborn. I would say more on this matter but space and time prevent s me. Now when it comes down to Ellen White’s experience with sin and perfection, I would say that it is an inspirational one because it is good to know that she was humble enough and conscious enough to know her limitations and liabilities as a human being. I’m encouraged by her spirit. And to think that people problems with her. She demonstrated a deep understanding of what sanctification entailed and we would do well to learn more from her. Saving the best for last, let me get on to Paul. Romans chapter 4 is a rather profound one. Paul sheds light on the proper interpretation of the Old Testament understanding of Justification by faith. He uses the experiences of Abraham and David. Now Abraham’s example is a little easier to digest though he was flawed but when it comes down to David it is clear that God’s grace knows no bound and His mercy and willingness to justify sinners is made clear. And I am blessed to know that.
Comments On: Desmond C. Haye’s post titled “My views on the ‘Bigger Model of Salvation” By: Eric Ollila
Desmond mentions some good points that I would like to highlight. Desmond stated in his post regarding the “Bigger Model of Salvation” that “I believe there are merits to us developing and utilizing such a model. Hopefully, it will help to ease the tension that now exists and bring us to deeper levels of understanding of the salvation plan; but the question arises as to where and when should we begin? What are the advantages, and possible disadvantages that that we might encounter in this bigger model?”
While I want to let Professor Hanna answer for himself, I think it would be safe to say that he probably has an answer to the question about “when should we begin?” I think it would be safe to say that he has already begun.
Desmond brings out another very important question that I myself have had some concern about. Namely, “and should we achieve a model that is so broad that it encompasses all the views in Christendom what would be our perspective as Seventh-day Adventists? And what would we call others from, or would that be necessary at all seeing that our bigger model includes all others? Furthermore, when we arrive at this bigger model will it lead to complacency among us?”
While I have appreciated many things the “Bigger Model” addresses in a Biblically faithful manner, I have concern about the idea of trying to come up with a model that could bring harmony between the BRI and the 1888 committee. The reality is that there are irreconcilable differences between “some views” on the BRI and “some views” on the 1888 committee. The reality is that there are some unconverted ideas that are expressed from both groups. Until these ideas are submitted to Jesus Christ there can be no reconciling no matter how big our model is.
With that said, this raises an issue about exactly how far do we take the “bigger model?” A bigger model in my opinion would be a model that clearly identifies the truth. That means the whole broad range of truth. In other words it would have to take into consideration the seeming paradoxical statements of Scripture. This, “The Bigger Model’ does a good job of up to a point. Where I feel that this model, as I have started to understand it, breaks down lies within its underlying premise that says “everybody is right.”
Let’s face it…while there are many things that both sides say are good, there are other items that they have flat missed the mark on. There are areas where both have failed to take into consideration the whole of Scripture. These areas, the bigger model should not agree with. It should stand clear and distinct from these false interpretations of Scripture.
Point well taken Eric. I propose a biblical model that is in harmony with the way the Lord has led us as Seventh-day Adventists. I argue that we need a bigger model in order to explain what we already believe as Adventists. I do not mean a model that agrees with everything that every other model proposes. At the same time a bigger model will agree with what is biblically correct in other models.
Dale Baker “BRI: Comments on 1 Tim 4:10” Whidden: “Salvation, The Great Controversy Theme, Closing Events and the Law”
Ever since the fall of Satan in heaven, he is seeking to show that God is not a just God. He is bent on making Christ seem arbitrary, unfair, and even unreasonable. Satan even goes as far to say that God is so just that humans cannot be forgiven or experience mercy by such a just God. But we see in scripture that Gods love was expressed in His justice no less that in His mercy. Therefore, I believe that in Gods justice there is mercy and in His mercy there is justice. Additionally, mercy is extended only on the basis of holy justice. Consequently, Satan is seeking even today to pervert both law and grace by denying one or both as essential to the understanding of Gods character of love.
We see further that salvation was provided by Christ and His death on the cross. But this is accessible when we give our lives to Christ. This does not mean that all is saved, but that we take hold of this salvation when we accept Christ as our savior and continually allow Christ life to be lived out in us. Jesus is the savior of all, which means then that Jesus is the only and exclusive way of Salvation for the human race. Thus no one needs to perish because salvation is available to all.
"It is interesting to note that although [He](sic) paid the price for us He also has to make an effort to rescue us. Human is in such bondage by Satan that he has to be persuaded to accepted the salvation that is offered by Jesus. It seems to me that it takes the sacrifice of Jesus plus the continuous prompting and guiding of the Holy Spirit to save man."
This is an important element indeed because our wills are in bondage to Satan since Adam sold out to the devil. The entire human family is now Satan's rightful possession but Jesus has paid the price in order to rescue us from sin.
If it wasn't for the promptings of God's Holy spirit then we would just do what comes naturally and that is to rebel again God. We cannot turn towards the good but we can turn toward God!
As Ellen White reminds us we can give out wills to Jesus. we have much power in the exercise of the will--in other words we have a CHOICE.
Whether the exercise of that will is considered meritorious towards our salvation will depends on whose model we are looking at. This is the "hair-splitting" level that Dr. Hanna has being continually intimating in class.
The question of God's sovereignty versus his justice and our choice is a question that will always entail discussion that we may never be able to resolve on this side of eternity. So why wrestle with these questions anyway?
Reminds me of the story of a son who complained to his father than reading the bible wasn't beneficial because seemed to stick. It was like "trying to catch water using a basket". His father replied, "At least the basket is cleaner afterwards!"
Struggling with these questions should make us appreciate God's salvation more--even though we may never come up with a perfect answers. Perfect answers would eliminate faith and the "dark glass" which we now look through.
Garfield Browne comments On: Desmond C. Haye’s post titled “My views on the ‘Bigger Model of Salvation”
It is interesting that my colleague Pastor Haye holds the view that the Bigger model concept will inevitably create greater options for discussion. I agree with this notion. Moreover, the bigger model concept will definitely create more discossion. As I ponder the greater model concept, I am also wondering how much we are willing to accommodate in the discussion- simply because as a people we are generally not open to the unconventional and different; for us as Seventh-Day Adventist different is perceived as wrong. I clearly understand Dr Hanna's proposition of a larger model which is also Biblical, however on the issue of Salvation there are so many possibilities beyond the past, present and future of justification, Sanctification and glorification that I wonder if a larger model is not also a great avenue for misunderstanding. I am just wondering.
Heather I would like to comment on your submission for week three. You did a very good job of summarizing what was stated in the reading. I have had the same question that you have had about non-Christians being saved. I know that Ellen White says that there will be people in heaven who have never heard the name of God but what does that do for our missionary effort. If you believe like the Catholics do that you cannot be saved unless you are baptized then you will have a great push to save everyone. If you don’t have to know Christ to be saved why do we tell people? At the moment I have come to the conclusion that the reason to tell people about Jesus is that He came here to make friends with the world. He died to make those friends and it is my job to tell people about the friend that they can have if they will just meet Him. I have learned over the years that my ideas grow over time but this is where I am at the moment. Thanks for your comments. Jamie
Hey Jamie, I’d like to respond to your latest blog entry. Your comment “I have noticed that the Devil deals in absolutes” kind of caught my attention. I’m not sure if I understand you correctly, but it seems the other way around to me. I believe God alone is absolute. One text that stood out in my mind as I read your entry was Titus 1:1,2… it reads, “Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness, in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began…” To me this text says a couple things, but the one that stands out is…GOD CANNOT LIE. Therefore GOD’S TRUTH in His Son Jesus is the absolute authority in this world today. Jesus said in John 14:6 “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.” In our “both”…“inclusive-language” world, this sort of “either/or”…“exclusive-language” is extremely offensive to many outside Christianity, and to even some within Christianity. To me, the very nature of truth is “either/or”. I think it’s interesting that Truth isn’t merely someone’s narrative of history, but instead it is anchored in the reality of the God/man…Jesus. I think the devil is doing everything he can to divide us as a people. I believe there are often antagonistic efforts on his part, to divide us and keep us corporately disqualified from the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The early church was of one accord, daily praying, and studying the Bible together, eating together, having all things in common…and then the Holy Spirit poured out at Pentecost. From what I understand about postmodernism, ours is an age where everyone does what is right in their own eyes…claiming that there is no such thing as “absolute truth”…This was the same issue in the book of Judges…the phrase that is repeated over and over is… “In those days there was no king in Israel; everyone did what was right in his own eyes.” (Judges 17:6; 18:1; 19:1; 21:25) I think the only way we’ll ever be united as a people is when Jesus is King of our hearts…and King of our church. “And I will sanctify My great name, which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst; and the nations shall know that I am the LORD," says the Lord GOD, "when I am hallowed in you before their eyes.” Ezekiel 36:23 Blessings!
Comment on Daniel Ocampo On Romans 3 & BRI Document “Christ Saved the Human Race”
After reading the same materials that Daniel read, I am convinced that our understand of the materials are very similar. However, Daniel’s understand have enlightened more than when I first understood. His insight has helped me to gain greater understanding on the documents and on the chapter in Ellen White on Salvation. I also appreciate the way that he related and bridged Romans, the BRI document, and the Decade Before 1888 together. These materials were all interrelated with one another. Therefore, I feel as thought a lot was said there was still a lot of things missing. In the BRI document there seemed to be a use of word play on what Jack Sequeria said. Although, I believe that he (Jack) could have and should have explained what he said a little better. Some things that are said aren’t meant to be taken the way they are explained by another person. The person who said whatever was said is the same person who can explain better what he or she meant. So, it is a little unfair, I think to take what someone else said and run with it (make a big deal out of it). However, at the same time, I realize that I must be open and careful to take some things at face value. I am in no way defending Jack but I realize that his misuse of words have caused a lot of debate. I believe the most important thing is to know what we believe as individuals and continue to explore and gain deeper understanding of topics and issues that arise from these study committees. It, for me, is better to look at things the way the Dr. Hanna is teaching and admonishing us to do and that is to look at things wholistically.
I enjoyed reading your post especially the last part. It is refreshing that God is actively and deliberately pursuing our souls. It is like a great cosmic love story. You also wrote about why Jesus had to die. You said, “Did God have to pay off the devil (with a ransom) to win back humanity? Of course this idea seems completely ridiculous.” I agree, but it seems even more ridiculous that God died on the cross to pay himself off. Couldn’t God simply forgive because he is God and can do anything anyway he wants? The whole thing makes little sense.
This is in response to Dale Baker’s assignment posted on 9/22/07.
In the first paragraph it is stated: “clearly Scripture reveals that there is no perfect person no not one (Rom 3:10),” then later on in paragraph three we read: “Through Christ we can attain perfection as we trust Him and allow Him to live out His life within us.” Although I believe I understand what is being explained in Dale’s post, to play the part of the devil’s advocate, I have to ask why these two statements seem to contradict each other. If through Christ we can attain perfection as we trust Him and allow Him to live out His life within us, then doesn’t that mean that those who are already doing that have already attained some sort of perfection!?
Thank you Tim for bringing the whole matter into a nutshell. It was good reading from your point of view, it seems that you are such a prolific writer with a great hold of your comprehension. I resonate with your concerns how our church have grown both radicals and fanatics against and for Ellen White. Again the issue is on the misuse of documents and for personal benefits and or in support for personal ideas and theories though they may never be the stand of the person being used (EGW). At any rate, this is where Grace plays the role that up to now, is a FREE gift from God.
This in response to Rey Edwards who wrote: "In fact, the great paradox is that the closer we come to Christ and the more like Him we become the more we would realize how unlike Him we really are. Hence, the more “saved” we are, the more “lost” we’ll feel."
I like your ideas and reflections until I have come to your last paragraph stated above, with special emphasis on the last sentence. Would you mind expounding more and shed more light on this? It's quite tricky for me. Would it be clearer to say that the closer we get to know Jesus and see the difference he makes in our lives by his grace through faith, the more we would appreciate his gift of salvation? I said that because that's how I experience my unending desire to share the good news of salvation because it's just so good not to share. It's like "fire in my bones" (Jeremiah), so hard to keep, it comes out naturally, we just can't help but share it. But please share more. Thanks, Dan
As I reflect on chapter 5 of the book Ellen G White on salvation, it is my view that possibly, she had never been confronted with great theological challenges as when she wrote on these cardinal topics in this chapter .Indeed they were solemnly cosmic .For they involved the two forces in one way or the other controlling the world. The topics are about the salvation of a lost man, which implies to me it was God’s agenda, then the great controversy which has to do with the war between God and his arch enemy Satan in view of the lost cosmos. And much more about the law on which Satan laid his strong accusation against God, who is mostly known of his strictness on obedience to his law, and finally the closing events of the cosmos. In my opinion, this is the scenario where Ellen G White has to prove her theology to be Biblical sound. And then disapprove Satan’s claims that, God is not arbitrary and unfair to require obedience to his law nor mercy is not swallow up in justice .In relation to our study in class, there is no being that could absolutely understand the science of salvation As its nature is past, present and future .For none of the creatures has been so, except God .In my view, Satan’s allegation were right for he could not understand as creature as how mercy, the law and grace could harmoniously work in unison and God maintain his justice in relation to his character of love and forgiving the sinful man. .It is in this narration that Ellen white stood up to prove that, the imagination of Satan is not only wrong and malicious but also that salvation is fully Gods agenda. For God had sought to answer this charges by the incarnation of Jesus in whom is the fulfillment of the law and salvation by grace .And in my conclusion, Christ centered gospel is the ultimate solution to mans destiny .Hence I concur with Ellen G Whites theology on salvation.
comment on Geraldine O'neal assignment. AFTER READING YOU COMMENT I HAVE JUST A QUESTION FOR YOU. WHAT IS MOST IMPORTANT THE LETTER OF THE LAW OR THE SPIRIT OF THE LAW?
Whereas I appreciate the Eric’s concern on the topic of Universal and Legal Justification, I understand that he seems to want to dictate to the committee what they should have said, answered, and studied. The truth is that regardless what a committee or an individual studies there will always be some weaknesses and some strengths. My friend, Eric seemed to have completely overlooked this matter. I also appreciate the concern that he had with the research institute not intermingling justification with the prophecy and promise of Genesis 3:15. However, my understanding of the article was not to explore prophecy or do research on the “what did or didn’t happens and why did it or didn’t it happens” on sin of Adam and Eve. The purpose of this article, I believe, was to explore more deeply into the subject of what is actually meant by universal and/or legal justification. It’s purpose, again I believe, what to try to convince the readers to come to a logical conclusion about the subject. The article, I believe, was well written and gave readers the insight that was needed to come to their own conclusion about the matter. Although it seemed that it was written to steer peoples mind’s away from legal and/or universal justification into its writer’s frame of thinking. The truth about the matter is that an author of an article is not going to answer all of the questions that its reader has, especially those that does not deal with the purported topic. However, to answer one question, yes, Adam and Eve began the process of dying when Adam disobeyed and ate from the forbidden tree. Adam and Eve both began to die physically at Adam’s disobedience. At the same time, they died spiritually at Adam’s disobedience. In my estimation, it wasn’t the purpose of the article to answer these questions.
This brief comment is in reference to a part of Daniel’s reflection: In reference to judging others. Because of the malignity of sin we don’t even need to behold our own faults too long. We need to consider, confess, repent, forsake …all of those being necessary and possible by God’s grace. After we look at ourselves, then we should turn our gaze immediately upon the one who is able to help the sin problem…Jesus. Amen "Turn your eyes upon Jesus, look full in His wonderful face …….And the things of earth will grow strangely dim in the light of his glory and grace."
This is about Wayne's post. I appreciated the balance that he showed about Ellen White that he pointed out her emphasis on being saved by faith in the merits of Christ. He also mentioned
"It will do every Bible scholar and every believer to continue to do extensive studies on justification, sanctification, and salvation before anyone submit a concrete belief that his or her ideas are correct and state them as facts."
I like this because it is a turnoff to me and others when people say that this is the way it is, end of discussion! I like people that are openminded enough to say that this is what I have found so far. If you find something from the Bible that explains it better, please show me because I am searching too.
Tim, I fully agree and love the encouraging promises in Romans 5:6,7. And agree, to reconcile those verses with others in the Bible we need a “bigger model.”
I also agree that it seems as if the BRI article on “In Adam/In Christ” may simply be arguing over semantics. I see this kind of scholarly work within Adventism as a call for Adventists to get outside of our little bubble of quarrels, and deal with some other theological issues that aren’t as small and nitpicky.
”The BRI document “Comments on the ‘In Adam/In Christ’ Motifs’” seemed to be a big deal over semantics in parts of it.” I made note in my personal document notes that the argument seemed to be too much on the side of semantics as well… however, I think that a lot of the verbal sparring in theology resides in semantics. And we put on the gloves of word when we step into the ring of theo. And so this is our world. “I agree with the BRI that it is the result of Adam’s sin that passed down to the descendants of Adam.” I not sure that your statement is what BRI was saying, here is a quote “Romans 5:12-21 does not teach that Adam's sin was imputed to us. On the contrary the passage makes Adam responsible for his own sin; his descendants receive the fatal result of his transgression.” Ángel Manuel Rodríguez Comments on the "In Adam/In Christ" Motifs And so I agree with BRI’s position that Adam’s sin did not pass to us but the fatal result thereof. Peace b2u… mika
Wayne wrote: "Many of the things that Paul said about justification and sanctification need to be taken at face value and needs no study or research committee to try to figure out what he meant. However, there are some aspects of the subject that needs to be explored for our coming to logical conclusion by looking at it holistically."
Wayne made some points in his post about fighting over semantics and wrangling with points that appear very clear from the Bible.
On the other hand, even Peter declares that Paul wrote about some things that are very hard to understand and there is "milk" and there is "bone". Salvation has a simplicity to it that even a child could understand (otherwise everyone will need a couple doctorates in order to understand salvation) but a certain mystery that no one could adequately explain. We are often looking at a BOTH rather that an EITHER/OR. This applies to law/grace, mercy/justice, God/man, humanity/deity of Jesus and several other paradoxes in the Bible.
The danger seems to be in taking extreme and unbalanced views on these subjects.
I found Mika's review quite interesting: "To think that justification was credited to a person, in this case that would be Abraham, makes for great questions (or confusion – depending on how you want to look at it). I mean, if Abraham was credited righteousness, then Abraham would seem to have possession of it. Possession of “righteousness,” that is. And so if he had it, maybe he can share it to others or lose it like someone loses their wallet on a NY train ride." Mika proposes a logical reasoning, assuming that everything one is credited with,is transferable. Can Abraham's credit of righteousness be transferred? Is it merely for his personal use or can he in turn credit others? I think righteouness is distributed only by the Divine. Many who now have it would probably share it with the undeserved, or those who really do not need it. I do not think that all that we are credited with is transferable- simply because some things are tangible and some intangible!
Marcus Malcolm Vassell Dr. Martin Hanna Doctrine of Salvation October 6, 2007 Reflection Ángel Manuel Rodríguez makes a very interesting case in the debate about the variation of interpretations of 1 Timothy 4:10. As with many of these articles I am surpised that there are those that hold to some strange views about the a specific text and build entire doctrines based on those views. Rodriguez points out that God’s provision of salvation for humanity is universal however its efficacy is limited due to the freedom of choice that is afforded to all human beings. People are free to choose to accept or reject his invitation of love. Along the same vein is Ellen Whites understanding of salvation with the backdrop of the great controversy providing the context. I liked the way that she always crafted her writings with this cosmic reality in mind. This gives a certain distinctiveness to our message and our interpretation of scripture. Paul in the fifth chapter of Romans states that the salvation that God provides for humanity is deeply profound in that we were rescued from sin not when we were begging for help but when we did not even know we needed help. Furthermore, this great salvation comes not to God’s friends but to His enemies which we were before we were changed into children of light.
Comment on Garfields post on Rm 5, Whidden ch 4...
I agree with Garfield about the blessing of learning how the SDA pioneers also struggled with many of the same issues as us, sometimes for years. For me, it really balances out the high ideals we are called to in Christ vs. our real life struggles and short comings to reach those high ideals.
One comment that really stood out for me was 'if we became sinners before we sinned, we may have become ‘saints’ before we knew Christ.' I know all analogies are limited simply because they are only tools to help us understand God's very deep truth, BUT this was a neat way to think about it. In some way, we might be 'saints' even before we know Christ. Of course, this does not supercede human choice, acceptence of Salvation and surrendering our lives to God! Thank you Garfield for challenging me.
I enjoyed your insights on the 1888 message. I too felt the author was unfair to the study committee. One statement of yours really resonated with me, “This is one thing that scares me in the Adventist church. Too often we react so violently against one extreme that we fall into the opposite and just as wrong extreme”. It is so important for us not just as Adventists but Christians to know what we believe by what is true and not out of a reaction to others. It is not good enough to say we don’t believe that but know what we do believe. Balance is key.
Comment on Mika’s article: I am particularly impressed with Mika’s presentation on the possession of “righteousness. Your perspectives demand some thought and I saw much sense in your line of reasoning. I agree that “we do not have any righteousness; we have only the mystery of faith.” It is this faith that will lead us into a deep and abiding relationship with Jesus. It Christ who is our Righteousness. It is him alone who can present us before his father worthy and righteous.
I agree with you Mika…there are so many ways to be confused about salvation. You mentioned that the 1888 group is nebulous in their use of the “in Adam… “in Christ” motif. From what I understand, the 1888 group get the “in Adam”… “in Christ” motif from 1 Corinthians 15:22’s “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” I’m not sure if I understand 1888 or BRI’s stances completely, but I understand this “in Adam…in Christ” model of salvation as follows. 1 Corinthians 15:22 along with Philippians 1 & 2 is often used to teach this model of salvation in Jesus Christ. I think 1888 explains it with the understanding that we are born with a sinful nature… inheriting it from our parents…all the way back to Adam. But through Christ’s sacrifice on the cross, a way was made for us to live “in Christ”…denying the sinful nature “in Adam” and living to the divine nature “in Christ”. 2 Peter 1:2-4 “Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.” May God bless us with clarity amongst all the confusion.
Azahel’s comment stimulates me to share a few words on the BRI-1888 Committee discussion which is causing him some concern.
As I said in class, the biblical model of salvation should not be limited to a legal objective justification that we have in Christ apart from our exercise of faith to receive a subjective justification. Further, there is a sense in which Jesus is the objective embodiment of our salvation apart from our subjective exercise of faith. Finally, through the exercise of faith in Christ we subjectively receive the salvation which he objectively embodies.
The goal of my teaching in class is to encourage us to do the careful Bible study which will show us that our model of salvation needs to be holistic. We have been saved; we are being saved; and we will be saved. We need a bigger rather than a smaller model of salvation if we are to be faithful to Scripture. This bigger biblical perspective will assist us in understanding the BRI-1888 Committee discussion.
Note well the following two paragraphs from the article: The Dynamics of Salvation. http://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org/documents/Dynamics%20of%20Salvation.htm
“Jesus died for every person at every place and in every time. This was the event toward which the sacrifices of the Old Testament pointed. It reconciled the world to God (2 Cor. 5:19); it delivered humanity from the power of Satan; it opened the door to a life in union with God. As Christians we are therefore not ashamed of the cross; it is the guarantee of our forgiveness, the ground of our assurance, and the pledge of our eternal life in God. "But far be it from me to glory except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ" (Gal. 6:14; Testimonies to Ministers, pp. 161, 162).”
“While Christ by His death has redeemed the world and paid the penalty of every sin, not every person actually will experience salvation. Why is this? Because God does not coerce, not even for our best good. He has provided salvation as a gift, but He does not force that gift upon us. He has made reconciliation, but we must agree to be reconciled.”
I just want to give a big welcome to our Evangelical Reformed brother in the midst of our class. Garfield writes…
It cannot be negated that man would have never responded to God if God did not take the initiative to seek after him. Additionally, it is also true that man in, of himself could not have reached out, and accepted the gift of salvation that God offers, because he became a slave to sin and did not have strength to seek after God…
Oh wait… here is something else he wrote
…Holy Spirit is working on our character and making us instruments of good works, this cannot merit us salvation
Maybe he’s an Adventist after all… I want to extend a hearty amen and welcome to Garfield - he's returning back to the remnant (he he he)
I think that most of us would agree with Garfield – and will gladly say so until we find out it fits in the decrees or description of other theologies or traditions. Maybe the heresy that Dr. Hanna is teaching really isn't heresy after all...
jjwalper said “I've eaten lunch with both Angel Rodriguez and Jack Sequiera on separate occasions.”
You can’t get much better than lunch and face time with your subjects can you – it’s as primary source as you can get. When considering Rodriguez's Sequeira's model I think you may be onto something.
I believe that the Christological issue is the real source of this division.
I like your final statement
“I'd like to read or hear him speak of his model of salvation from another angle other than picking apart another man's model.”
Prior to this class… my exposure to the 1888 committee was seeing the sign off of M139. Now that I’m understanding more… it certainly would be nice to read Rodriguez comments (BRI for that matter) on salvation that are not so apologetic.
“My question is why do we as a church tend to shy away from the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, a very necessary part of the Christian experience? It’s almost as if this relates only to “Pentecostal” faith not Adventist.”
I’m not sure that we shy away from the baptism of the Holy Spirit. I think, we may shy away from Pentecostalism, and it’s Holy Ghost Tongue-defined baptism of the Holy Spirit. But for the most part, I think we seek and preach about the Holy Spirit baptizing us (at least – this is what I’ve experienced.)
This comment relates to Dale’s reflection on Sin, The Human Condition and Salvation. Your comments express my sentiments exactly, Dale. I might not have all of the Biblical knowledge about salvation and I’m glad that it is not a condition for being saved. This gospel has been made available to the learned as well as the unlearned. When you think of people in some mission fields who have never heard of Jesus, living with many idolatrous practices but when they embrace the message that Jesus suffered and died for their sins, that he loves them and took the burden of their guilt upon the cross,shedding His precious blood so that they could receive pardon, they fall in love with Jesus and thank Him that they don’t have to be lost. Because of His sacrifice they envision a better place where they can live with Him throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity. This miracle is amazing grace and it is accomplished through a work of the Holy Spirit. God uses Angels and Human agents (missionaries) who work in cooperation with Him too. It is in fact amazing that Jesus would give up royalty and come and live in poverty to teach us the Father’s character, (“love”) and would redeem us to Him by the sacrifice of his own life, and not just leave us to the enemy of our souls. Jesus told His disciples before leaving He would not leave them comfortless, but that He would pray the father, who would send another comforter (Holy Spirit) in His name, that He may abide with them forever. The work of salvation is not a singular work. It is a work of the Father in giving His Son; It is a work of the Son in shedding His blood; It is a work of the Holy Spirit in convicting, converting, guiding; It is a work of the angels in protecting and ministering; It is a work of the believer in believing, receiving and cooperating. As we cooperate, a relationship is formed and develops. For Jer.9:23,24 says: Thus saith the Lord, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches; vs. 24 But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the Lord which exercise loving kindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the Lord. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. John 17:3
This is about Mika's comment about Peter walking on water. I appreciate the emphasis on Jesus as our only goodness and righteousness. We forget that too easily. The gravitational pull is a great illustration about sin and our struggle with it.
This is a comment on Tim Peters' Week 6 Submission. I loved that you talked about God being the one who saves us every step of the way. It also reminded me of a song by Carrie Underwood called "Jesus take the Wheel." I think that it is only when we realize that we are such a mess that God has to interviene just to give us the option of a choice, that we will realize our true helplesness. In doing this we can see how God feels about the world and we will have His love for fallen people. Jamie
This is in response to the comment of Walter's In response to 'Christ Saved the Human Race' by Angel Manuel Rodriguez. I understand some of your frusteration. I felt like the author was trying so hard to say that the 1888 study committee is wrong because they teach universal salvation (which according to our teacher they say that they don't)that he seemed to be working overtime to prove the opposite. The only thing is that I feel the two groups are dealing in semantics. I think of it this way. When Jesus died He gave the gift of salvation to all of us. We can choose to keep it or throw it in the trash but that doesn't mean that He only provided it for a few people who choose to keep it. He died for everyone not just those who accept Him by faith. Because of this there is a gift given to all. We are not all saved because some of don't want the gift that He gave us and that is our choice. I am glad you said something. I really appreciated your comment. Jamie
In reponse to jjwalpher ... who wrote: I think in order to find out the difference between these guys two different models of salvation, you must look at their Christological views. Their most obvious point of contention is their two different beliefs in the "nature of Christ." The whole question being...did Jesus take upon Himself man's fallen nature at His incarnation? Or did He take man's perfect nature before Adam sinned?
I can see that the treatment of these two different views were quite balanced. He was able to take the "positives" from these two 'models' to build his own. He showed what he agreed with in both models and in many cases their differences were only EMPHASIS.
This is what I see in reading Paul and James as well--they both emphasized different aspects of salvation and sometimes to make a point they made what seems to be extreme statements.
I see the same pattern in Ellen White's writings as well. When she speaks about the Sabbath School she would write that it's the most important aspect of the church. Speaking of the home, and this becomes the lifeblood of the church etc. It's all a matter of emphasis.
But on the issue of the nature of Christ, because we are dealing with a MYSTERY it's not so easy to get total agreement. The Bible doesn't give us explicit and dogmatic facts about His nature and maybe we shouldn't try to be dogmatic either.
The same with Ellen White who didn't give us a systematic theology on the "nature of Christ" and we try to understand what words such as "propensities" mean.
Are just looking at different sides of the the same elephant and describing out view of the giant animal (subject)?
Marcus M. Vassell Dr. Martin Hanna Doctrine of Salvation October 13, 2007
Reflections
In Romans the sixth chapter Paul buildson an argument that he has been unfolding since chapter four on the distinctive change and characteristic tranformation that should take placein the believers life. He uses the language of union ("united with christ") to call the the believer to personal identification with the Risen Lord. He says that we are buried with Christ in baptism and as adirectresult we are united with Him in His resurrection, in His "riseness" as it were. It follows that to share in the latter one must first participate in the former. In other words, death before life.
This nuance of the gospel is all the more significant when I read about the Dynamics of Salvation from the Biblical Research Center. Though a very lengthy and profound discussion on how human beings are saved and thee are many gems to be found there, I have to admit that the one staement that resonated with me was that "our world became the arena in which Christ battles with Satan for our allegiance." Wow! Christ is fighting for my, Marcus's allegience, my loyalty. Not a new concept to me but certainly a timely one. It is easy at times to get overwhelmed in the barrage of theological arrows that you can completely lose sight of the simplest of truths that Jesus is battling with the enemy of my soul over my loyalty. and I at times give Jesus a hard time and the enemy, my enemy, a upper hand. This is a humbling reality.
And I guess when it all boils down to it that is the essence of the Great Contraversy that Ellen White theme that Ellen White set as the background to her own understanding and theology of salvation. In a way the idea is so profound that it cause me to chuckle. Just think, Christ risked all to provied salvation for meand has succeded in doing so. Fine... but then when he seeks to apply that salvation in my life I fight against Him and side uo with the one who is trying to rob me of priceless gift of salvation.
I have no more to say (though more can be said)... I am too ashamed of myself. Lord have mercy on us all...
My comment is in response to Ray Edward's statement about our works “earning” rewards. In a certain sense I would have to agree. The Bible does talk about being rewarded according to our works. And as Ray mentioned, we see in the parable of the talents, that the servants that used their talents actually increased in talents. So, in a certain sense they were earning interest on what the Lord had already given them.
This is all good and Biblical. Where the difficulties come is when we start looking at works and talents as means by which to earn salvation. Salvation is a gift. He who receives Jesus Christ receives eternal life. We are doomed to die, but Christ has become our Substitute and Surety. This is the work of God—to Believe on Him whom God hath sent. For this, no work can be done. Its pretty simple and straight forward.
This in response to Ray Edwards who wrote: "In fact, the great paradox is that the closer we come to Christ and the more like Him we become the more we would realize how unlike Him we really are. Hence, the more “saved” we are, the more “lost” we’ll feel."
I like your ideas and reflections until I have come to your last paragraph stated above, with special emphasis on the last sentence. Would you mind expounding more and shed more light on this? It's quite tricky for me. Would it be clearer to say that the closer we get to know Jesus and see the difference he makes in our lives by his grace through faith, the more we would appreciate his gift of salvation? I said that because that's how I experience my unending desire to share the good news of salvation because it's just so good not to share. It's like "fire in my bones" (Jeremiah), so hard to keep, it comes out naturally, we just can't help but share it. But please share more. Thanks, Dan
Hi Daniel,
I would love to "expound". :)
It's what I see as one of the great paradoxes of Christianity. Jesus said that in order to LIVE we must DIE. Also, that the FIRST will be LAST and the LAST, FIRST! TO become MATURE Christians we must become as LITTLE children ...
Well, now you can add to this that the really HUMBLE man will think that he has a problem with PRIDE. And as soon as you start thinking that you are humble that's the time when you are the PROUDEST!
Isn't it interesting how Ellen White tells us that during the time of trouble the SEALED SAINTS are going to be distressed over their past sins?? Imagine that they are already sealed and SAVED but will be worrying about their salvation.
I think that your increased desire to share Christ the more you know about Him is quite natural but it says nothing about your ASSURANCE of salvation. And couldn't it be that the more you know of Jesus the more OBLIGATED you feel to share him? And if we serve out of obligation are our motives pure? (Not directed at you but general questions to ponder.)
My response is to Heather’s comment she made on 9/15/07 about my posting on the “Wrath of God.”
I never stated that God’s wrath is merely passive. Hell fire is definitely not passive. I did admit that I do not understand how it all fits together. But at the same time, it cannot be denied that the texts in Romans clearly indicate a “giving them up.” This ‘giving them up’ is a part of God’s wrath.
Often times in Scripture there are paradoxes that present themselves. And so far, I have yet to find an instance where what seemed to be a paradox didn’t harmonize perfectly when, at a later time I was able to understand the larger context. So, just because I can’t fully explain everything about God’s wrath, I am not going to throw out the verses that I can’t seem to fully understand at this point. And, as I have heard God’s wrath presented, it is not very often you hear anything about God’s wrath in the terms of giving people over and up.
All I am saying is that God’s wrath as a passive and an active principle need to be considered. Not just the active side and not just the passive side, but both.
Regarding the comment which you stated “I refuse to believe anyone is that far.” I am assuming you mean “you refuse to believe anyone has gone so far as to commit the unpardonable sin.”
I would strongly caution against such strong statements like that. I shall list a few Biblical examples of people who did go that far, people who did commit the unpardonable sin: 1) Cain 2) The Antedeluvians 3) Judas 4) Pilate 5) The majority of Jews in Jesus day 6) Saul (King Saul from Old Test.) 7) Annanias & Saphira
Jude 1:5 through Jude 1:7 (KJV) 5I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. 6And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. 7Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. 8) And the Bible says many people in our day will do the same (see 2 Peter 3 & 2 Tim. 3)
God’s grace is always there. But, when we resist the voice of the Holy Spirit so much so that our conscience becomes “seared” then we can no longer hear what God is trying to say to us.
1 Tim. 4:1 through 1 Tim. 4:2 (KJV) 1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
When people reach this point, in most cases there is no turning back. I say “in most cases” because the Bible teaches that God can heal a damaged conscience (nothing is impossible for God), but the problem is when most these people get this far, it is very unlikely they will pay enough attention to the Lord to “let” Him fix their lives. It is not that the Spirit ever stops speaking, it is that they stop hearing. And yes, this point can be reached before we die and before Jesus comes again.
In fact, the mark of the beast and the seal of God issues declare this as well. Everybody that receives the mark of the beast will have passed the limit while they are still alive and before Jesus comes back. Their probation could be safely said to be “over.” And as Jesus indicates in Matthew 24, these people won’t even know they passed their limit, just like the people in Noahs day didn’t know they had passed their limit until the waters began to fall.
Grace ended for them the day the door shut on the ark. But they didn’t realize that until seven days later when they felt the wet drops falling on their heads.
Those who receive the seal of God, on the other hand, will be “fixed” on doing God’s will. They will reach a point in their lives that “nothing” could make them choose to follow another master other than Jesus Christ. They are so imbued with the Spirit and Character of Christ that there is no effacing it from them. They are dead set to go wherever the Lamb goes, even if it means to the slaughter. This, too will happen before they die and before Jesus comes.
In response to Eric; I am sorry that you felt I was attacking passive wrath, I feel that it is both. Wrath by nature however is intense which at least to me is more active then passive. As regards to your list of names that committed the unpardonable sin there is no scriptures referencing that they committed the unpardonable sin. I don't think we really know what that sin is because it is not spelled out in scripture. I reject therefore that any of these names committed this sin. They still could have received grace. 1) Cain 2) The Antedeluvians 3) Judas 4) Pilate 5) The majority of Jews in Jesus day 6) Saul (King Saul from Old Test.) 7) Annanias & Saphira
Cain was a murderer but so was David, there is forgiveness then for murderers. Judas betrayed Jesus but so did the other Apostles. The only difference is they repented. I feel no one is beyond God's grace if we are willing to be repentant and humble. Only those who blaspheme the Spirit have committed the unpardonable sin. I suppose we disagree what that is.
I like Tim's synopsis of Whidden's Ellen G White on Salvation: "In chapter 6 by Whidden I like how he puts it that it is ‘free grace’ rather than ‘free will.’ This is Ellen White’s view of God’s initiative. We are so messed up that we would not respond to God unless he took the initiative and drew us to him. Yet he does not use force in this drawing. So without this drawing and wooing by God we are hopeless. I am thankful that God takes the initiative in our salvation." So succinctly expressed. We are completely incapacitated by our sinful nature and did not just need a Redeemer, but a Redeemer who would take the initiative and draw us back to Himself. Max Lucado is right- No wonder they call Him Savior! Garfield
Garfield this is a response to your comments on the Biblical Research Institute's "Comments on the 'In Adam/In Christ' Motifs” by Manuel Rodriguez, along with your comments to Romans 5 and Whidden's Chapter 4.
I agree with you, that it is encouraging to know that James and Ellen White struggled to understand Justification, Sanctification, and Glorification. But what really caught my attention in your blog was your line of reason dealing with Romans 5. It just makes sense what you said. Praise the Lord the Gospel is supposed to be simple. It's refreshing to hear it put so plainly. If we were considered sinners before we sinned...because of Adam. Then wouldn't the logical conclusion be that we are righteous before living righteous lives? I agree with you...Jesus justified (past tense) us at the Cross...our part is to simply believe...to "cultivate" faith in His Atonement. I'm not sure why BRI focuses more on our "works" than on God's "works" for us. It just seems clear to me...before I knew Jesus, He had already died for me...He had already justified me. It has been by faith that I have entered into His covenant with the Father.
Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified (past tense) by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, (before we responded)
Romans 5:8...while we were sinners, Christ died (past tense) for us.
Romans 5:9 ...being justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Romans 5:10 ...when we were enemies, we were reconciled (past tense) to God by the death of His Son.
Romans 5:11 ...our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received (past tense) the atonement.
Heather, in class you bring up some deep insights and ask some hard hitting questions. To be honest, I was quite disappointed with your blog this week. All you did was quote and summarize what you read. It was nice that you shared your 'favorite' sections or verses, but I hope next time you will throw out some of your questions, reflections, confusions and even disagreements. You took the time to do the readings, instead of summarizing content, just hit us with a reaction you had to it. I hear it in class, don't be shy on the blog.
I just reviewed some of your comments on comments (unpardonable sin...). That's what I'm talking about! Drop the gloves and give those guys a run for their money. Make Oprah proud!
I agree with Garfield that our concept of the emancipation experience is limited. Seventh-day Adventists must reexamine our doctrine of Salvation. For it is very evident that because of the limitations we place on ourselves, and our understanding of this doctrine, we miss the need for a more Wholistic model of salvation. We can no longer be content with merely a pioneer approach to this most precious doctrine; but we must be willing to move for God is not static in His plan of salvation but active. As students preparing to lead a people into the millennium we need to grasp the important model that is been presented-a bigger and better one. It is pertinent to note that heart knowledge of this great salvation plan will revolutionize our churches. It will release many from the religious apathy that that is holding them captive. Thank God that all this is possible through Christ. For in Christ our noblest aspirations can be reached, and the most blessed salvation experience will be realized.
I agree with Eric, where he states that there are some sins that we have to take to the feet of Jesus many times before we physically experience deliverance from them. Sin has such grip on us that it makes us slave to it; as a result many of us find ourselves constantly going to Christ for forgiveness for the same sin over and over again. But one can rejoice in the fact that every time we go to Christ He is there ready and willing to forgive us no matter how often we come to Him. As the scriptures declare in Romans 5:20 that where sin abound grace did much more abound.
Interesting analysis, I also though how human nature can become perfect? we have sinful nature and is no possible to find perfection in us, but I also remember that God see us trough Jesus, He is not looking at us directly, He see Jesus in our place instead. So that way man can be perfet in God presence
Response to Freddy’s comments on Angel Manuel Rodriguez’ article on 1 Timothy 4:10. I see what your saying. I thinkn we do need to be careful not to teach “universalism”. But I wonder if Angel Manuel Rodgriguez isn't just refuting 1888’s view of the text. The 1888 group’s belief in legal justification (that Jesus saved the world at the cross) focuses on GOD'S WORK in initiating reconciliation with sinful man. Rodriguez wouldn’t discount this completely. What concerns me about his Soteriology is that it seems as though he focuses more on MAN'S WORK in responding to God. I believe this sort of view minimizes Jesus’sacrifice/atonement, producing a man-centered, works-based Soteriology. Romans 2:4 says that it is the “goodness of God that leads man to repent.” Blessings brother!
I agree with you, God has done all the necesary for the human race to be save and now by a simple step of faith we can obtain the merits of christ and become part of His kingdom.
jjwalper wrote: “So according to scripture, what does it mean to be perfect? It means to love your enemy as yourself.”
I can see in your writing hints toward sanctification (work of a lifetime, “become increasingly more and more perfect like Jesus”) but the tone of the entry seemed to be perfection as an end to itself. The definition of perfection given was loving your enemies through the help of Jesus. And so I wonder, how does Rom 12:1, 2 work?
Romans 12:1-2 …by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice… which is your spiritual service of worship… but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.
Is it right to say perfection is in the loving of your enemy? I kind of see it as including being living sacrifice. A living sacrifice that doesn’t die with the shedding of blood (1). But a sacrifice that says we are consecrated to God in such a way that it says we belong to God.
I could not agree more with your critic of “revivals” that emphasize hell. I think there should be a seminary class on the ethics of conversion. Is it okay to use unethical/immoral ways to “get people in”? We should take a close look at many of our traditional modes of evangelism. To what lengths do we go to “get people in” to our church? Fear (“join the remnant or else)? Westernization (“the culture of the real church”)? Celebrity-style impersonal technology (3ABN, Amazing Facts, etc.)? What we convert people with is what we convert people to. Is this what we want for our church?
I thought it was interesting how you discussed Ellen White's statement that we are not born with the guilt of Adam. Rather our our inheritance leads to sinful acts which lead to guilt. This perspective tells me that we each are individually accountable to God. I needed to hear the challenge to recognize how deep my depravity is so that I can see my need for Jesus and His righteousness.
my coment on MATENA KEFA O. REFLECTION ON CHAPTER 4 OF ROMANS. ABRAHAM OUR FOREFATHER.
I did like you comment, and I also find interesting that James chapter 2 use the same example of Abraham to prove that Abraham was justified by works, is any way that we can harmonized this two concept? I would like to have a reponse if possible.
This is in response to: jjwalper said... Romans 6, Whidden Ch 6, BRI's article by George Reid, Why Did Jesus Die? How God Saves Us
I really liked what you had to say about God and His love. I have found that fear and love cannot exist in the same relationship. It is amazing that our God, unlike the gods that many serve, loves us and wants to have a realtionship with us. I wish that as a church we were better at showing this. Sometimes I think that we scare people by telling them about the mark of the beast. We have just switched one thing for another. That is the never ending challenge of life, who do we draw people to Christ instead of pushing them. I thank you for the things that you wrote. They really got me thinking. Jamie Peterson
In regard to Tim ... "So often in preaching about the law, the emphasis is about the law being Ten Commandments that we need to keep because God said so. I saw the law in a new light while reading Romans 7 that needs to be highlighted. The law shows us we are all sinners and need Jesus and his grace. The law is about bringing us down on our knees rather than puffing us up with an attitude that says ‘I am better than you because I keep the right day!’"
I fully agree here with Tim that we often leave out the seemingly "negative" things that Paul says about the law. For example, in Romans 5:20 he says, "The law was added so that the trespass might increase," and "For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death." (7:11)
According to Paul as sinners the is NOT our friend. It condemns us. It kills us. It declares us guilty.
We can be so accustomed to defending the law against those who claim that it is abolished that we forget this aspect of the law as well. If we give a TOTAL view of the law we would also clearly show this aspect as Paul wasn't afraid to declare.
I enjoyed Ray Edwards' comment on Roman 7 "In Roman 7 Paul discusses the obligation the law places upon him and the conflict that arise in him because of the presence of the “law of sin” in his sinful nature. I know that many discuss whether this conflicting experience was pre-conversion or post-conversion for Paul. I think that this was the latter because Paul speaks of a “delight in God’s Law” (v. 22) and I cannot imagine the unconverted person speaking of a delight to do God’s will." Indeed the ungodly has no experiential relationship with God and therefore cannot speak of being delighted to do God's will.
I am happy to know that you are getting a better understanding of the whole salvation topic. It is very evident in class and on the blog that there are many of us who are really wrestling with the ideas and themes that relate to salvation. I like the point that you made about the fact that we can do anything to change ourselves, but that it is God that works in us. I believe that for persons who did not grow up in the church will often say before they accept Christ there are some things that they will need to fix before surrendering to Him. Such individuals do not realize that surrender to Christ will give him or her all the power that is needed to overcome, and fix whatever needs to be fixed.
Jonathan’s paper provided interesting concepts about why Jesus died by the authors. The comment about the Character of God caused me to identify the character of God with one word “love.” For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16
I am very impressed with your exposition of Romans 7. I am also grateful for the perspective that you present on the text under consideration. It is my belief also that the context in which Paul speaks is a post- conversion experience. He also states in other places that he must “die daily”, and “beat his body under subjection.” The beauty of Paul’s statements is that his words are realistic, and all human beings can attest to that fact. I am encouraged by the fact that Paul is human, and writes in this tenor expressing his struggles. It would be worthwhile for us to contemplate this fact a Christians and start being real in our walk with Christ. We are all struggling. The fight against the flesh is a great challenge for all of us; but I thank God that through Christ’s atoning work we can have the victory. Yes, we are more than conquerors in and through Him.
I liked your post on the Atonement you really seem to know your stuff. Personally I am confused with the connections between atonement, forgiveness and sanctuary. Does God forgive immediately or does God have to wait until the blood is sprinkled in the Sanctuary. If there is no 1844 can there still be forgiveness? If there is forgiveness only if Christ went into the Sanctuary why wait until 1844? Also how can the New Testament writers (much earlier than 1844) speak of God forgiving and saving? I know I am asking a lot if you get a chance I would like to hear your thoughts.
It was interesting to me to hear that if Adam rejected Jesus as substitute then the whole human family would be doomed. Was also a surprise for me, I was always under the assumption that the task would have been passed on from generation to generation until we got it right and in our case until Jesus came and died for our sins.
Walter as you expected the comments have come flowing in pertaining to you reflection paper. I appreciated your comments and agree with you that we have lost focus on our job responsibilities, which are to love and respect each other, even people that may have different beliefs and convictions than us. I am also glad that you got a first hand example of how not to evangelize and hopefully your testimony would be an eye opener to many within our church.
Just want to say Mika I am in complete agreement with you in regard to how individualist we, as humans tend to be at times. WE often forget I truly belief that we are the sinful one and the ones that have failed. And then I our ignorance turn around and question God and weather or not he is faithful and worthy of his trust. But since the beginning of time God has been only good to us and worthy of our praise.
In regards to your comments made in your reflection paper about the fact that the devil deal in absolutes and the fact that they is no middle ground is also true for God. I also believe that even Jesus doses not believe in a middle ground and that he requires us to make a definitive decision I believe the difference between Jesus and the devil however is that even though both deal in absolutes Jesus allows for mistakes and awards forgiveness to all who ask. Whereas the devil persecutes all who do not choose him. With that said I believe that the middle ground you speak about in regards to the church is more about love and respect for each other rather than middle ground.
In regards to your comments made in your reflection paper about perfection about whether or not it was humanly attainable. I too find myself pondering on that question but I am unable to answer it with any true conviction. What did God mean in saying “Be ye therefore perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect.” Was it meant to be a dream to aspire to or is perfection truly attainable prior to glorification? And if it is attainable why is salvation by works viewed so negatively? I am of the understanding that it is humanly impossible to attain perfection without God but as the scriptures say all things are possible to those that believe.
In regards to your comments made on Romans 6 which state “in other words the evil desires, emotions, imaginations, and urges that are tugging at me to give in become crucified. They are laid to rest. They are cast down along with every high thing that exalts itself against Christ.” I understood the text a little different. It is my belief that sin will still be rampant and tug and test us daily however with daily submission to Jesus we have the opportunity to reject these sins. Meaning that our success is not a grantee and we are still capable of turning our back on Jesus again. I hope I understood your comments accurately and will continue to give this concept thought.
I must say that I agree with the fact that the Law has proven to all of us that we have fallen short of the expectation of God. And I thing you are absolutely correct in saying that the use of the law by some to empower self simply reaffirms the transgression of that law. Because at the heart of God law is love and even is they was any doubt about that Jesus reaffirms that when he came and was extremely clear to expressing the importance of love in our lives.
I agree with you that the Christian life is wierd- it is a paradox. We do fight many battles as you said. I too take God's grace for granted too much. I appreciate your reminder that we are called to fight this battle through being submissive to Christ. I like your point that it is grace that gets us through at every point in our Christian walk. I am thankful that there is joy in this journey.
This comment is regarding the reflection that Geraldine made about the second coming of Christ. I think that is a very timely subject. God's message to the inhabitants of the earth today is, "Be ye also ready for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh." Matt.22:24. Taken from a prayer meeting thought last evening: Y1 6-29-1899: Just as fast as God's Spirit is taken away, Satan's cruel work will be done upon land and sea. Judgments by fire and flood will increase in fearfulness; for Satan claims his harvest of souls in the destruction. Geraldine, please add to your list of things to pray for: CHURCH UNITY. I believe if we can put aside differences and get on one accord, God can and is waiting to do great things for and through us.
THE KING IS COMING
The king is coming, the angels did sing; The King is coming, His dear ones to bring; Joy, happiness and peace from above, To reign there with Him in a city of love.
The King is coming, Make ready your hearts; The King is coming, Never more to depart; With power from God, on His blessed throne, Surrounded by angels in melodious tone.
I am one that is tired of sin and evil. Your list has many good suggestions for prayer. If I may, I would add that we should pray, as Jesus taught us to pray, that God’s Kingdom come and His will be done on earth as it is in heaven. This may help us take a closer look at the ills of this world (violence, oppression, injustice) and act out against them, as a sacrament to the Second Coming.
In response to Dan Bates re: "I have a major problem with this view based on Romans 2:14-15 when Paul talking about Jews and Gentiles wrote, "Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written of their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them." According to my understanding Paul is saying that when a person (in this case a Gentile) lives their life according to what they believe to be right, God views that in the same light as someone (a Jew) who has had the privilege of knowing the law and following it. In other words God will judge according to the light that has been given.
Dan made some key point in this post and I appreciated the D.A. EGE quote as well. I find that the fact that Ellen White states that these "heathen" people heard God's voice speaking to them through nature that they "know" Jesus, just not by the NAME. I would venture to think that everyone who is saved would have KNOWN Jesus in the sense that they accepted God's leading in their life.
Case in point: I notice that a lot of international students would use English names just for the sake of easier pronunciation for English speakers. So do I really know these students if I don't call them by their given name.
No man can really be saved by a name but by the CHARACTER of that person. Jesus' name means more than a head knowledge of a historical figure. In the same sense who could those people of Old Testament time "know" Jesus even before He was born.
That's the sense I get of those being saved without ever hearing his name--they are still saved THROUGH his name.
Response to Dale A Baker Justification by Faith Before 1888
Your right there has been so much debate over the issue of justification by faith. The debate over whether or not we are justified by faith or by faith and works is a debate even at the seminary. I agree with your assessment that we are saved by faith or justified by faith and by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8,9) but that true justification or should I say true faith will show itself in works...so I agree with you completely, we are saved by faith but it should show itself with works. We must be careful not to adopt any model of salvation that merits our works in any way. Our faith indeed will be judged in the end according to the works God accomplished through us...through our faith. Blessings!
I believe Scripture provides ample evidence as to what the unpardonable sin is. If you would like texts, I would be happy to share.
I believe the unpardonable sin is any sin that is not repented of. While there are NO texts that say "Judas committed the unpardonable sin" Or "The antedeluvians commited the upardonable sin" Or "Pilate commited the unpardonable sin." etc... there is scriptural evidence that suggests each of the individuals listed had sins that were not repented of.
I disagree that any unrepented sin is the "unpardonable sin". The unpardonable sin is attributing what is God's work the Devil's or speaking against the Spirit. Look at the context of the verses. Mat 12:31-32, "Therefore I say unto you, every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men; but the blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him; but whosoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in that which is to come. " Mar 3:29-30, "but whosoever shall blaspheme against the Holy Spirit hath never forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin: because they said, He hath an unclean spirit." There is no biblical support that says that the unforgivable sin is simply unrepented of sin. It is something specific and of a greater magnitude.
I also believe that making emphasis in keeping the law and pushing people to obey it is not the best way, as soon we know Jesus obey the law is part of our Christian life and it become very ease, the purpose of the law is to show us Christ. As we go more close to Christ more ease is to obey the law.
The issue of law as it pertains to salvation has always raised controversy but the term law does not always have to be viewed as negative or restrictive. But in the case of salvation by works, the word law can instead be viewed as uncontrollable reaction to love and faith in Christ. It is not something you have to do but rather something you want to do to show your appreciation for his gift of life through salvation.
You said, "are we saved by faith alone or by work, or are we saved by both? But it is vital for us to realize that faith is to be sustained by work. We are saved to work."
I usually think of your statement the other way- Our faith sustains our work. But I can see it going both ways.
I agree with you that we are saved to work. I think that as pastors/ministers we need to do a better job of teaching and living this.
This comment is regarding Eric's reflection paper. Your statement regarding the sorrow that Christ will experience throughout eternity brought to memory the first time that I read that in Spirit of Prophecy. I felt badly because He has suffered so much already. But it’s truly stated that He will pause and shed tears because of the lost. After the tears that I cried also, my next impression was to do all that I can with his help to be in a right relationship with him and to lead souls to Christ to try to reduce the pain. Please reflect on excerpts from a poem: As I carried my cross all alone For many, many years, Jesus with thorn pierced brow I was shown was shedding , many, many tears.
It seemed He was saying to me personally My child I paid the price, Behold my thorn pierced brow and see A perfect sacrifice.
It makes Him sad and He sheds a tear As we struggle beneath the heavy weight; Many perplexities will reappear, All of the grief, and the pain, and all of the heartache.
Tim wrote: "I agree with the BRI article that says it is the results that passed on to humankind, not the sin itself. It does not make sense to me how people could be realistically in Adam when he sinned. This sentence caught my attention: “As Adventists we do believe that the sin of Adam weakened human nature making our sinning unavoidable.” It seems that in many cases Adventists teach contrary to this. We are often brought up with the attitude of pull yourself up by your bootstraps. You can overcome if you try hard enough. I think that our inability to overcome with God’s help is an important message because we rely on ourselves too much. I agree with you completely on this one Tim. Much of what we are taught in our congregations and some of us are guilty of doing the very same thing of emphasizing that if one tries just a little hard they can be justified and sanctified, and even glorified. Fallacy!!!!
My comment is in regard to Tim (week 9 submission).
I agree that the tension between judgment and justification is a healthy one. I’m wondering if, on the whole, it’s better to have people within Adventism work to find as many places of agreement as possible, or work to emphasize the differences, thus emphasizing the healthy tension. What are the missiological implications for various contexts?
To comment on the blog posted by Debbedo Brown: I agree with Paul in the importance of the God in the conversation process from and to sum it up I guess. I view salvation like the air that we breathe it is available to all just like the gift of salvation however. The impact of sin is similar to us being under water we can only survive in it for so long. And when Jesus die for us on the cross he allowed us to opportunity to surface from our watery grave but it is up to us to breathe in the fresh air of eternal life.
you wrote: We need more faith to believe the inspired Biblical writings and the inspired Spirit of Prophecy writings.
I wonder if we do indeed need more faith. Are you thinking that we need more faith such that there will be less mystery?
If so... I’m not sure about that – I almost feel that I should have as little faith as the Lord wants me to have. Otherwise – I may be searching for things in scripture and spirit of prophecy that aren’t really there.
In response to Mike Much discussion was about unconditional justification being applied universally or only applied to those that choose to exercise their right to choose - life. The arguments sustained between the 1888 committee and BRI reminds me of the once hot topic of “right to life” discussions.
I appreciated Mika's comparison of the 1888 Committee--BRI theological differences to that of the great abortion debate. In this sense I think that the fetus will be compared to salvation and whether we have a choice to keep or lose our salvation?
It's a troublesome metaphor because the baby is a separate entity with intelligence of its own unlike salvation but I see how the arguments can seem so similar. Even Mika admits at the end of his posts that it didn't help much to go in that direction. :)
But it is difficult to find any one model that would help us better understand the subject of salvation. Reminds me of the several sacrifices in the OT sanctuary service that all represented Christ ministry in different ways. No one sacrifice could sum up Jesus.
Paul himself used several metaphors of his own--adoption, redemption, grafting, washing, life/death etc. We can expect any ONE MODEL to fail at some point to capture some aspect of salvation.
Dale Baker In response to Tim’s on the 9/07/07 Tim stated that when men fall his spiritual perception were dimmed. I want to agree with him that this is so, because scripture teaches us that when man fell several things changed about him. His spiritual nature also fell. Not only that, but man began to be afraid, fretful among other things. Another thing too is that man started to run away from God. But God in His love and mercy kept chasing after us. And the more he chases the more we seem to run. But as the old saying go we can run but we can’t hide. Truly Gods business is to save us and clearly we see that He will go at length to save us.
Dale Baker In response to Jamie Peterson’s comment on 9/14/2007 Jamie made the point that “We have no right to say that we did any of the work ourselves, and the moment that we try to do the work ourselves we have taken our lives out of the only hands that can save us.” It is true and very important that we trust God and allow our faith to take hold in Him. We cannot hold on to Christ because we will let go, we always need to allow Christ to hold on to us and then we will be in good standing. Many times we try to play God by thinking we can overcome sin by ourselves, and those are the times we get in trouble. But we need to always be cognizant of the fact that it is only God that can deliver us, and save us from our sin.
Dale Baker Respond to Ray Edwards 09/29/2007 Ray stated that “It is interesting to see that Ellen White did not profess to be perfect.” Many times we view Ellen as been the most perfect and upright person on earth at that time, who was ready for translation at any time. At times we even go to the extent that if we were to be in her presence we would be condemned because of the way we perceive her to be perfect. However, we see clearly in her writings that she had she is always longing for more of Christ and His righteousness. This suggests to me that she had her struggles just like every one of us. We are to always be striving for perfection, but we also need to understand that it does not happen overnight.
In response to Ray Edwards, I read your post and I also find Romans 9 incredibly troublesome. I definitely see a Calvinistic view but I am also troubled that it says, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated” even before they were born. The concept of God hating and hardening hearts hardly seems like a God I would want to worship. Verse 22 is also troublesome, “What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?” This verse seems to imply that God creates people in order to damn them, doesn’t this seem unjust? I don’t personally find this section dealing with grace as much as how God chooses to bless the rest of the world, through us and previously the Jews. This section was originally meant to explain why the Jews were un-chosen in a sense and the Gentiles have taken their place.
Comment on Mika's post: I would love to join you in that camping! I guess we are both experiencing the same challenge of trying to reconcile both sides of this current debate on salvation. I do agree that there is a sense in which justification is both objective and subjective. While we wrestle with these deep issues which stem from the diverse understanding of Paul's writings, let us tread prayerfully, and cautiously. For the secret things belong unto God but that which is revealed(regarding the plan of Salvation) is revealed for our learning).Truly, some of paul's writings are hard to comprehend, and often times we try to wrestle certain aspects to our own destruction. I purport that we pray, and labour to achieve this broader model of salvation that will encompass all the varying ideas in there correct perspectives.And may the Spirit help our imperfections as wrestle with these eternal truths.
Ray, I see your point. As i read Romans 9, i too came to the conclusion that this is one of those "hard to understand" passages of Paul. It appears as if the Calvinistic views are being purported, and as a result certain scholars have gone off on this tangent.Paul, i believe in this passage is making the point that God can choose to do whatever he desires,He will have mercy on whomever he wishes, and will pardon the one he desires. The issue then is his mercy towards the undeserving sinner- God does have a choice. But really though how should we understand the mercy of God? It is hard to truly wrap our minds around this issue. How can he be merciful to some,and "unmerciful" to others? Listen to Paul in vs20-23: "But indeed, O man , who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it , "Why have you made me like this ?" Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor , and another for dishonor? What if God , wanting to show his wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for dstruction." This here is strong language by the apostle, but it brings me back to the pertinent point being made here,and that is He is God, and He can choose to do whatever the wants. he gives mercy to whom he wishes ,and pardon even to the undeserving. It is thought provoking , but it is true.
Week Nine Response to Heather Barbian’s comments… Romans 9 is a tough one…the only way I can make sense of it is by verse 16’s explanation that … “it is not of him that wills, nor to him that runs, but to God that shows mercy.” It’s a refreshing reminder that God is endowed with the Sovereign ability to choose who He will reveal Himself to and who He won’t…I say it refreshing because mankind is increasingly becoming more and more arrogant, as he/she tries to usurp God’s rightful position as sole Arbiter of Revelation. God is in control…not any man, no matter how many books he’s written or what school he’s gone to. God keeps it simple for us…He’s in control. I know that is a simplistic answer, but I tried.
As for Whidden’s “Justification by faith-Before 1888” …I didn’t realize that Ellen White had a distaste for the phrase, “I am saved”…wow, I knew something wasn’t right when those preachers used to come to us at grade school and stand up front yelling, “Are you saved?!” “Are you sure?” “How do you know if you are saved?!” After awhile you just wanted to stand up to get him to stop. I need to read this chapter…good stuff.
Earl wrote: “At he end of the day God and God alone shall decide on who shall receive his gift why stress it? It is out of our hands. We should concentrate on just depending on him for everything and not worry about drama..”
I think from your response that you are in awe of God soveirgn right to choose. While I have always thought in similar lines – today – I am at odds. Because it seems to do away with my choice. And so, Calvin is raised and Arminean down played. And I don’t know how to let go of the stress. I can trust in Him, but neither my faith, nor lineage, nor association can grant me success in the end. And now I can understand the text when it says, “then why blame me?”
Ray wrote: “Romans 9:14-23 is indeed a troublesome passage and seem to champion the Calvinist view of salvation… But I think that the point Paul is making here is that God’s choice is always based on MERCY not on what humans can do. Paul is playing the “bad cop” to make the point that God’s election is always based on grace.”
I was troubled as well by the same passage. And I can tend to see that Paul is making a case for God’s mercy beyond what a human could do. But I wished I could have read or seen the “good cop” come into play. Maybe the good cop is following in a later chapter or was already understood.
I am in agreement with Daniel’s comment concerning the BRI document In Adam/In Christ. However, I believe there need to be a degree of understanding or at least trying to understand the idea of in Adam/ in Christ. I also believe that the message the BRI is conveying on this subject is highly misleading. Indeed, if we were in Adam when he disobeyed; then, it is we, Adam’s offspring, who took on our own natures and not the nature of Adam. It is us who disobeyed through Adam. In some sense, if this is true, we could very well be credited with Adam’s disobedience. The BRI document idea of in Christ is highly misleading, as well. I believe the 1888 Study Committee has some very valuable information and reasoning’s but their insight and explanations is lacking in biblical guidance. Nowhere in the Bible is there a suggestion that we are/were in Christ while He was on the cross, at least not literary. If this was the case, I would have to concur with the document. Also, if this was true, it would have been we ourselves that died for our own sins and not Christ. Also, if this is true; then, Christ’s life, death, burial, resurrection, and ascension is obsolete and is in vain. I think that the study committee has some very enriching study topics but their conveyed meaning and understanding is what needs improvement. If we look at the subject according to the way the document suggests, then we committed the sin of disobedience by eating the fruit ourselves and we died on the cross for ourselves for our own sins.
Like JJ and Heather, I too have had to scratch my head when reading through some of Paul's writings (or many of them). Thank you JJ for pointing to vs. 32/33 and about purseing it by faith. I think if we are honest, it is still a hard chapter to understand, but vs. 32/33 do give some help. Also it seems the focus is on God's mercy (faith) and argueing against salvation by works (vs. 11, 16). Something I've heard mentioned several times was the example of God hardening Pharoah's heart. Well, how true it is that you can't just run with what you hear, YOU HAVE TO DIG UP GODS WORD FOR YOURSELF. I checked back in Exodos about God hardening Pharoah's heart, and it show that Pharoah hardened his own heart 7 times (includeing the first several plagues) and that God is only mentioned as hardening his heart 4 times. Perhaps this could be an example of 'the unpardonable sin' where we harden our own hearts and then allows us to stay that way. Whether or not God over-rode Pharoah's will to make him an example, this is not a clear cut case of God disrespecting free choice. Pharoah already made his choice 7 times, perhaps God just confirmed it a bit for him. I would like to hear your feed back on these thoughts.
Walter wrote: …BUT, Gethsemane does seem to be a struggle between Jesus' will and God the Father's will: "yet not MY WILL but YOUR WILL be done." I don't know if that suggests appeasement or not, but there is definitly some tension there.
Hi Walter,
I heard someone talk about this text just last week. He said that many of us use this text as a catch for all “just in case it doesn’t work out.” Y’know – not my will but yours. He recommended that the difference here is that the “will” referred to is known will. It is not unknown will… so for example many seminarians may say, Lord – may I please have that position with Lake Michigan conference… but not my will… your will be done. I think it’s a fair prayer – but in fact – the praying person doesn’t really know the will of the father.
But Jesus and the Father did know the will. His prayer was beyond fair – it was known! So, I think for Jesus to say such, there is a struggle going on there – but not appeasement. He knew what the plan was and “for the joy that was set before him (he) endured the cross” Heb 12:2.
Adam sin open the door from which death came into the world, so human inherit death but, the great news is that Jesus reverse the eternal death, so by acepting His salvation we can inherit eternal life
"I saw that some were getting a false excitement, arising from preaching time; but the third angel's message is stronger than time can be. I saw that this message can stand on its own foundation and needs not time to strengthen it."
I really appreciated this quote. I think we sometimes feel the need to "help" truth. We feel that if we dont tell people exactly how to respond to God they wont do it correctly and if we dont pressure them with the fact that we believe time is short they dont take it seriously. I think we take away from the truth when we feel we need to add pressure and control to get people to respond to God.
"Ellen G White also denounces this teaching as unbiblical. She even goes further by saying that it is dangerous to say that “I am saved.” Even though I disagee with her as well because If one cannot give a testimony, then what kind of salvation can one claim?Throughout the scripture, there are several incidents where all who were saved had to give a very strong testimony in favour of christ and his gospel. Therefore I fear that if there is no testmony, then salvation may not be complete."
When she made that statement she was speaking in the context of once-saved always-saved. She was not saying that you sould not say you are saved at any certain point, just that you should not say that you are unable to fall. So you dont have to disagree with her after all. Peace...
I am with you on much of what you said about chapter 9. However, I’m wondering what Bible texts you’re referring to when you imply that testimony is a necessary part of salvation.
Jeff wrote: “The ironic thing is that my striving for moral purity made me ethically sub par! And out of the three areas that we are called grow in – morally, doctrinally and ethically – the one that Jesus said was the “most” important was ethics. If you are morally and doctrinally correct and you are a jerk you are in danger of being booted out.”
Hey Jeff,
I wonder – do you think that it is possible to be morally in line and not be ethical? Is it not true that a Moral being is also ethical? I think I get your point. But I would think that a jerk, would also be closer to immoral then moral.
Jeff, I have had a similar experience in the past that when I have strived for personal morality only, focusing on what I do- that led me to be lacking in ethics. Good reminder to have morality, doctrine and ethics!
You gave this as a Biblical definition for sin: "sin is the temptation to act individually on you own apart from God." If temptation = sin then Jesus would be a sinner since he was tempted. I think the point you are trying to make is that Jesus faced the same struggle with sin, not that he sinned.
Comments on Desmond C. Haye said... BRI: Dynamics of Salvation Whidden: Chapter 6 Acts 6 I really appreciated the fact that you were willing to admit to changing your views on things. I think to often it is just easier to say that we have it all figured out but it is a lot harder to say that we might be wrong. You also did a fabulous job of summarizing what Christ does for us. It is a beautiful understanding of how truly big God is.
I also see that as a church we rely a lot on ourselves instead of making God the one who does the work. I have had a hard time with this idea because I know so many people who believe that even after we come to God the work is really ours. God comes in a makes up the difference instead of Him doing the work. If that is the way that it works then we could to a certain degree save ourselves. I know that is a bit of an extreme but that is what they are saying to a point. I think it is a lot easier to believe that way though. I think it is a lot harder to let go of our lives and give them over to God completely. I think that is why our church often falls into this ditch. I also liked what you had to say about the nature of Christ. You should take a look at this week’s student movement (Nov. 9th). There are some people that feel that Christ needed to go through exactly our same situation if He can help guide us through ours. I have a problem with that. That would say that Christ came here because he didn’t really know what this earth was like. Check it out and tell me what you think.
Tim said... Week 9 submission I really enjoyed what you had to say about God hardening someone’s heart. I have had a hard time with that phrase as well. It has often been explained to me that God takes the blame for everything that happens even if He just let someone make their own choice. I have had a hard time understanding the fullness of that idea. If you have any thoughts I would appreciate them. I also have seen the tension between salvation by faith and works. I think that I have come to a balanced idea but I often wonder if I will ever have it all worked out. I feel that we are saved by faith in God but that faith includes turning our lives over to God. If we do that then God lives in us and our actions will be in accord with His will. There will still be things that He hasn’t changed yet so we won’t be perfect overnight, but the great thing is that when we surrender to God we surrender our right to an agenda. He changes what He changes on His time schedule not ours. He knows us better than we know ourselves.
There has been some interesting discussion in our blog about Ellen White’s warning against saying “I am saved.” Let’s not be so quick to say “I disagree with Ellen White.” Rather, let us read what she says about salvation with a view to understanding what she means. When we read her in context it is clear that she is warning against the presumption of the teaching: “once saved, always saved.”
A comprehensive study of White’s position will show that she teaches that we have been saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved. This dynamic biblical model of salvation is not adequately communicated by the statement “I am saved.”
Some who say “I am saved” mean to say “I am saved because Jesus died for me.” For others it means, “I am saved because I have an intellectual agreement with the truth that Jesus is the Savior.” There is an element of truth in each of these statements. However, many will be lost in spite of what Christ has done and in spite of an intellectual agreement with the fact of what he has done.
Lets look at what Ellen White actually says.
“It is essential to have faith in Jesus, and to believe you are saved through Him; but there is danger in taking the position that many do take in saying, "I am saved.’” (Selected Messages, 1:373). “We are never to rest in a satisfied condition, and cease to make advancement, saying, ‘I am saved.’” (Selected Messages 1:314). “If we are disobedient, our characters are out of harmony with God's moral rule of government, and it is stating a falsehood to say, ‘I am saved.’” (315). “If you sit down with the ease-loving ones, with the words on your lips, "I am saved," and disregard the commandments of God, you will be eternally lost” (318).
“As we come to feel our utter reliance upon Christ for salvation, are we to fold our hands, and say, ‘I have nothing to do; I am saved; Jesus has done it all’?--No, we are to put forth every energy that we may become partakers of the divine nature. We are to be continually watching, waiting, praying, and working” (Selected Messages, 3:198). “Those who accept Christ, and in their first confidence say, I am saved, are in danger of trusting to themselves. . . . We are admonished, "Let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall" (1 Cor. 10:12). Our only safety is in constant distrust of self, and dependence on Christ” (Maranatha, 236).
“The promises contained in the seven beatitudes are not to be fulfilled to the one who feels self-sufficient, who turns from the Scriptures of revealed truth to a false theory, crying: ‘I am saved, I am saved. I cannot sin.’”(Signs of the Times, Feb 28, 1895). “The assertion, "I am saved, I am saved," does not prove that the soul is saved or sanctified” (Faith and Works, 121).
The only aspect of Ellen White’s discussion on this subject that causes any difficulty is when she writes one “should NEVER dare to say, ‘I am saved’" (Selected Messages, 1:314). However, this difficulty does not lead me to say that I disagree with her. Rather I seek to understand better what she meant. Having carefully read all she has to say on this subject, it seems clear to me that she means that we should NEVER say “I am saved” with the meaning that “I already have an irreversible eternal deliverance.” Note the following quotation.
“When this idea is entertained, the motives for watchfulness, for prayers, for earnest endeavor to press onward to higher attainments, cease to exist. No sanctified tongue will be found uttering these words [with the meaning of irreversible eternal deliverance] till Christ shall come, and we enter in through the gates into the city of God. Then, with the utmost propriety, we may give glory to God and to the Lamb for eternal deliverance. As long as man is full of weakness--for of himself he cannot save his soul--he should never dare to say, ‘I am saved’[with the meaning of irreversible eternal deliverance]" (Selected Messages, 1:314).
With Ellen White, I look forward to the time when I will say “now I see Him face to face. I am saved, eternally saved, ever to behold Him whom I love” (Maranatha, 303). Until then I say, I have been saved by what Christ has done, I am being saved by what Christ is doing, and I will be saved by what he will do! This is the biblical way to talk about salvation. I praise God that it is the Adventist way as well.
Commenting on Daniel Ocampo... Sometimes this is my problem, since I grew up in an Adventist Christian family and Church community I guess I am still waiting for this feeling to be a personal experience. Is it possible that Paul had this experience later in his life too, like while in prison?
I really enjoyed his post and I too can see the paradox between Paul's Romans 7 struggle and his Romans 8:1 triumph. Paul sees the fight taking place within his own mind and yet thanks God that there is condemnation.
But I'm not sure if I would reduce this assurance that Paul had to a feeling that I must wait to have. I think that Paul is rejoicing in what his mind knows even though his feelings may be saying something else. We cannot wait to feel that our sins are forgiven and that we are justified. We have to accept this all by faith--just because Jesus says that it is so.
It's that 'already' and 'not yet' tension that is so evident in the Christian's life and world that we struggle with day by day. We must like Moses see that city whose builder and maker is God while living in this present city.
I agree with Ray that there is a point to our conversion period which may not be able to trace. However, I do believe that conversion is a continuous thing in the life of the believer. Infact conversion ought to be a daily thing for the Christian since it is a surrender of the will to God. As Paul has declare that he ‘die daily’ so we all are to die daily to self and allow Christ to reign on the throne of our hearts.
I also like the perspective that Ray brought in about the angels won’t be able to sing the songs that the redeemed will sing at Christ coming. Of a truth if someone has never sinned then they would not know the joy of been released from it. Likewise, if a person has never been in prison, he or she would never have known about the joy of been free.
Comment on Debbedo’s article: The comments presented in your post are interesting, and the perspectives shared are relevant to our understanding of the doctrine of salvation. It is true that there are current misconceptions regarding God’s foreknowledge and his pre-appointed will. And I might add that there are even more misconceptions regarding his permissive will. It is true that the future is present to God for He sees the big picture. It is also true that even though he is aware of the future he does not force man to be conformed to His will; for his foreknowledge does not impose upon our choices as human beings. It is the view of many that if he foreknew he has already willed it to be, and so man becomes mere automaton fulfilling the desires of God. But I am happy that our God is not like that, imposing his will upon his children, and restricting their power of choice. He is however patient, and i through his divine providence he is leading all things to its intended end. The Servant of the Lord encourages us by declaring: He who loves God supremely and his neighbor as himself will work with the constant realization that he is a spectacle to the world, to angels, and to men. Making God's will his will, he will reveal in his life the transforming power of the grace of Christ. In all the circumstances of life, he will take Christ's example as his guide. {1SM 86.1}
Ray Edwards wrote: “I would like to piggy-back on our last class discussion… I raised the point that conversion must take place in a moment and as Dr. Hanna indicated. He prefers to think of it as both a process and moment.”
Hi Ray,
If I may, I'd like to “veggie piggy back” as well on your discussion of conversion as process and moment?
I think that you are correct in saying that there is a point of time when a person experiences conversion. And I agree with you in saying that you two are saying the same thing but in different manners.
Hopefully, a model will be available soon that won’t break down easily after a 2nd or more times of reading and understanding it the model.
Probably that model will have be built with lenses that aren’t so dark – “1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.”
Comment on Ray’s article: Your article is thought provoking, and is challenging our lopsided views on how we relate to things that pertain to salvation. While I understand and agree the point you are raising regarding conversion occurring “at point in time,” I also believe that it is also a process, and that process has various points. It is my persuasion that the current salvation model must be revised, for the argument you raise is a perfect reason why there is desperate need for this broader model of salvation. When this occurs, we should be humble enough to say that even then we will not know it all. For the mystery of salvation is great. Paul echoes in Romans 11:33 “O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out. And Daniel encourages us as we wrestle with these deep things that “He revealeth the deep and secret things: he knoweth what is in the darkness, and the light dwelleth with him” (Dan. 2:22). I am so happy that the light dwells with him, and He is willing to reveal the “deep things of God” to us. I encourage my self ,and my fellow colleagues that “ Eye hath not seen , nor ear heard , neither have entered in the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.” So let us examine this great “mystery” with much humility, and never forget that the “secret things belong to God, but those things which are revealed belong unto us and our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law (Deut.29:29).”
This comment is regarding Dan's reflection about the assurance of salvation and the difference it would make if we had that assurance. I can see that the confusion of others might trigger doubt or disbelief. All have sinnned; But 1Jn.I:9, gives me assurance..."If we confess... Jesus has paid the price so that whosoever will can have the assurance of salvation based upon the completeness of His sacrifice and faith in his righeousness. The Triune Godhead is not determined to destroy but to save. They will go to any limits to save. The Father gave His Son; The Son shed His blood and sent the Holy Spirit to assist the believer in his journey if we cooperate with Him. If we trust our salvation to Jesus, we have the assurance of salvation. If our faith is weak we have prayer to aid us, because no good gift will he withhold from them that ask in faith, believing that he will receive it as promised. The love comfort and strength that this trusted companion gives is the blessed hope and assurance. No truer friend than Jesus, Noone can love like Him; He promised never to leave you, He'll stay with you, until the end. Blessings and Peace!
I have found the question that you raise to be very significant to the doctrine of salvation especially as it regard the salvation of the unchurch. There is absolutely no doubt that the person who believes in the resurrection of Jesus and confesses and through dependence on the Holy Spirit keeps faithfully confessing by their mouth and life that He is Lord will be saved. However, there are people who will be saved who have never heard of the name of Jesus to confess it or ever heard of the resurrection of Jesus to believe in it. In Roman Paul says that the gentiles who have not the law practice the things contain in the law and again in 1:20, he says the invisible things of God are clearly seen in His created works. Therefore, a person who has never heard about Jesus but lived up to the light he or she has received through nature and God’s other media of revelations will certainly be saved. However, has Doctor Hanna puts it they will only be admitted in the kingdom based on the provision Jesus has provided for man.
I am glad I am not alone struggling with many of Paul’s writings especially Romans 9. It is interesting that you mentioned that in Exodus that Pharaoh hardened his own heart SEVEN times, amazing. It seems that the process of hardening the heart includes ones own will and God’s (salvation is similar). The verses below show that God hardened Pharaoh’s heart as well.
Exodus 4:21 The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.
Exodus 7:3 But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my miraculous signs and wonders in Egypt.
Exodus 9:12 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses.
Exodus 10:20 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go.
Exodus 10:27 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he was not willing to let them go.
Exodus 11:10 Moses and Aaron performed all these wonders before Pharaoh, but the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go out of his country.
Exodus 14:4 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will pursue them. But I will gain glory for myself through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD." So the Israelites did this.
Exodus 14:8 The LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, so that he pursued the Israelites, who were marching out boldly.
Exodus 14:17 I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they will go in after them. And I will gain glory through Pharaoh and all his army, through his chariots and his horsemen.
“As I contemplated the reading for this week, I thought for a moment how far we have come in our understanding of salvation. Truly the “path of the just is like a shining light that shines more and more unto a perfect day.”
Right! It’s interesting. We have come a long way in understanding. At least from the days of knowing less then we did back then. And isn’t it going to be even more interesting as we continue to learn about salvation throughout the ceaseless ages…
Comment on Jeff Carlson Chapter 6 BRI Document: Doctrine of Salvation; Whidden Chapter 7; and Romans 7
I see that Jeff comment was very short but impacted with the information from the BRI document in a nutshell. Along with Jeff, I liked the way the document brought out the vocabulary of salvation. Furthermore, I had to look at it a second time to make certain that I read what I read. It was impressive for me to read someone else’s comment that saw some of the same things that I did. I also agree that many of us take one of the vocabulary words that help to explain salvation, make it the one, and hang all of salvation upon it. These words and their explanations are as follows: Justification: legal (court of law) Reconciliation: human relations Forgiveness: financial transactions Adoption: family relationships Sanctification: personal status – set apart
If this is what happens, I can understand why our understanding is meager and why our theology about salvation is distorted. At the same time, I believe that salvation may very well include a lot of subcategories in and under what the document expressed. Although I am in agreement with Jeff, I feel that it is up to us (students of the Bible) to continue the research and study and explore all areas of this broad subject so that we to can come up with our own model.
Comment on Earl Chapter 7 BRI Document: How Perfect Is “Perfect” Or Is Christian Perfection Possible?; Romans 7 and 8; Ellen White on Salvation by Whidden
In this comment Earl agrees with Heppenstall in that many Christians have a misunderstanding about the idea of perfection. I concur. Throughout the years, many Christians including and especially many Seventh-day Adventists have misconstrued the text that say “Be ye therefore perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect.” Not only that, many top it off by saying that “There is no sin going to heaven.” Whereas I agree, I feel as though when these phrases and texts are used, they need to be better clarified or explained so that the listeners will understand. I am convinced that when these things are said the person is really meaning that one must be sin-free. Although this is a good idea, the truth about the matter is that it is nearly if not impossible to do. I think the thing that we must do is accept Christ’s offer of salvation, totally surrender our lives to Him, and allow His righteousness make up for our deficiencies. Earl referring to sinless perfection said “My understanding of this is simply it is when we have a never ending appetite for Jesus and unquenchable thirst for his presence in our life it is when we never cease to take our eyes off of Jesus our Savior and Redeemer.” I agree with him but I would like to venture a little farther and add that it is when we allow Jesus to live and reign supreme in our lives, hearts, and minds and give us a distaste and hatred of sin. However, we differ when it comes to the idea that everyone has committed sin. My mind runs to the newborn babies that were killed. Also, there are some children that are still-born. In these cases, I believe that rule out some humans. I know that we are all born in sin and shaped in iniquity but even David’s own son was struck with illness and died. I am not aware of any sin that this child committed. It is possible that I have overlooked some things but I think that all of us should be more aware of using the word “all.”
Comment on Earl Chapter 7 BRI Document: How Perfect Is “Perfect” Or Is Christian Perfection Possible?; Romans 7 and 8; Ellen White on Salvation by Whidden
In this comment Earl agrees with Heppenstall in that many Christians have a misunderstanding about the idea of perfection. I concur. Throughout the years, many Christians including and especially many Seventh-day Adventists have misconstrued the text that say “Be ye therefore perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect.” Not only that, many top it off by saying that “There is no sin going to heaven.” Whereas I agree, I feel as though when these phrases and texts are used, they need to be better clarified or explained so that the listeners will understand. I am convinced that when these things are said the person is really meaning that one must be sin-free. Although this is a good idea, the truth about the matter is that it is nearly if not impossible to do. I think the thing that we must do is accept Christ’s offer of salvation, totally surrender our lives to Him, and allow His righteousness make up for our deficiencies. Earl referring to sinless perfection said “My understanding of this is simply it is when we have a never ending appetite for Jesus and unquenchable thirst for his presence in our life it is when we never cease to take our eyes off of Jesus our Savior and Redeemer.” I agree with him but I would like to venture a little farther and add that it is when we allow Jesus to live and reign supreme in our lives, hearts, and minds and give us a distaste and hatred of sin. However, we differ when it comes to the idea that everyone has committed sin. My mind runs to the newborn babies that were killed. Also, there are some children that are still-born. In these cases, I believe that rule out some humans. I know that we are all born in sin and shaped in iniquity but even David’s own son was struck with illness and died. I am not aware of any sin that this child committed. It is possible that I have overlooked some things but I think that all of us should be more aware of using the word “all.”
My comment addresses the author of chapter 8. The student starts his comment with “This article discusses Rom 5:12-21 a controversial section in Scripture that needed an in depth analysis.” Whereas I appreciate the short and to the point comment on the document, I feel that the author avoided going into a more detailed conversation on his or her own idea about “in Adam/in Christ.” The author of this piece seems to quote a lot more rather than giving his or her own ideas. He or she quoted form the document that “he ‘could not pass on to his descendants what he did not posses, the result of his sin was death and sin for all members of the human race.’” I believe that this statement is partially true but also partially untrue. The reason being is that not everyone who is/were born will die, at least not physically. I agree that we have been robbed of the spiritual state that God had originally intended for us. Furthermore, I don’t believe that everyone who has ever been born committed sin. No, I am not talking about people who have lived to become of age. I am strictly talking about the newborn babies and early toddlers that were struck down dead and killed by many known and unknown reasons. In my estimation, this eliminates the idea that sin was to all members of the human race. I am aware that every person born is born in sin and our natural tendency is bent towards sin. However, and at the same time, I am not disputing that these little ones were not born with the propensity to sin. I am just saying that they didn’t live long enough to commit any.
Wayne Moten said... Comment on a Comment of an Assignment
Raydal brings up some very interesting issues and concerns on his comment on Rodriguez’s paper. It seems that he and I have some similar questions and/or concerns about the affects of the sin brought on us through Adam’s disobedience. However, my concern is due to trying to understand how or why it is that we suffer the consequences by Adam’s disobedience but we don’t necessarily share the results of his obedience. From what I read, Adam’s sin infected us all with evil but his repentance had no affect on us at all. It seems that this is where I share a common concern with Raydal. I appreciate his openness in expressing his feelings and his questioning of Ellen White. However, Raydal finds it hard to believe that if Adam had not accepted Christ that we all would be doomed. I believe that this is something that probably needs a little more indebt study. At the same time, I do believe that if Adam had rejected Christ then all would be lost. I say this with the belief that only Adam and Eve were the only two humans alive on earth when he transgressed. If God had laid Adam to rest when he sinned or if he had rejected the coming Christ, it seems that there wouldn’t have been a need for him to continue living, especially if he had no chance of inheriting eternal life. If God had destroyed Adam, where would we be? If He had destroyed Adam, we would not be. Adam wouldn’t have had any descendants. Therefore, I can see why if Adam had rejected Christ we would be doomed.
Hey Mika I think it is possible to live a "moral" life while at the same time not live an ethical life. When I say morals I think of things like self-control, sexual purity, clean mouth etc. When I say ethics i think of things like patience, fair buisness even when you dont make as much money, giving someone the benefit of the doubt, considering someone's feelings over your personal goals, not manipulating people even if you think you have a good reason etc. The way the Christian Church at large uses the doctrine of Hell to scare people into right living is un-ethical in my mind even thought the goal of helping people live holy lives is noble. We often do the same thing. I know a pastor who basically ripped off one of Rob Bell's sermons and didnt give him any credit. When someone called him on it afterward he mumbled something about how all pastors do it and turned around and walked away while the guy was still talking to him. What he did was not immoral but he did it in an unethical manner. Another illustration is Christian gay bashing. I think the Bible is pretty clear that living an active homosexual lifestyle is sin just like living a life of criticism. However, I really cant imagine Jesus saying "you stupid fag! God wants you in Hell!" Just doesnt match the Jesus I see in the NT. So the moral idea is right but the ethical means of presenting it are way off! This is not an idea I think is very unique. I was just trying to make the point that being "right" doesnt mean that you are being ethical - correct treatment of people - and Jesus made a pretty big deal about how we are supposed to treat people. We often neglect that so we can push our moral and doctrinal ideas. We need to have all of them - we as a SDAs just seem to struggle with ethics much more than morals or doctrine. Thanks for the clarification question...
Reflection # 10 Hermeneutics is the science and art of deriving meaning. Its goal is to "rightly divide the word of truth." To achieve balance and avoid distortion is the objective. Mrs. White strenuously protested against the abuse and misuse of her writings by some of the compilation makers of her own day. In 1901 she wrote that: Many men take the testimonies the Lord has given, and apply them as they suppose they should be applied, picking out a sentence here and there, taking it from its proper connection, and applying it according to their idea. Thus poor souls become bewildered, when could they read in order all that has been given, they would see the true application, and would not become confused. Much that purports to be a message from Sister White, serves the purpose of misrepresenting Sister White, making her testify in favor of things that are not in accordance with her mind or judgment. . . . Please let Sister White bear her own message. 1SM, pp. 44, 45 (from Ms. 21, 1901). The continuation of the practice of using scripture and spirit of prophecy writings out of context to prove a point is evident today; however prayer and submission to the Holy Spirit will help the reader to receive the intended message from the Lord.
iiqipnuaThis comment is in reference Eric’s comment on the discussion in class about whether the devil partakes of God’s grace due to the fact that he is alive still
The deepest interest manifested among men in the decisions of earthly tribunals but faintly represents the interest evidenced in the heavenly courts when the names entered in the book of life come up in review before the Judge of all the earth. The divine Intercessor presents the plea that all who have overcome through faith in His blood be forgiven their transgressions, that they be restored to their Eden home, and crowned as joint heirs with Himself to "the first dominion." Micah 4:8. Satan in his efforts to deceive and tempt our race had thought to frustrate the divine plan in man's creation; but Christ now asks that this plan be carried into effect as if man had never fallen. He asks for His people not only pardon and justification, full and complete, but a share in His glory and a seat upon His throne.
While Jesus is pleading for the subjects of His grace, Satan accuses them before God as transgressors. The great deceiver has sought to lead them into skepticism, to cause them to lose confidence in God, to separate themselves from His love, and to break His law. Now he points to the record of their lives, to the defects of character, the unlikeness to Christ, which has dishonored their Redeemer, to all the sins that he has tempted them to commit, and because of these he claims them as his subjects.
Jesus does not excuse their sins, but shows their penitence and faith, and, claiming for them forgiveness, He lifts His wounded hands before the Father and the holy angels, saying: I know them by name. I have graven them on the palms of My hands. "The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, Thou wilt not despise." Psalm 51:17. And to the accuser of His people He declares: "The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?" Zechariah 3:2. Christ will clothe His faithful ones with His own righteousness, that He may present them to His Father "a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing." Ephesians 5:27. Their names stand enrolled in the book of life, and concerning them it is written: "They shall walk with Me in white: for they are worthy." Revelation 3:4. Great Controversy p485. I don't think Satan fits into this picture of a partaker of God's grace... do you?
My comment is in regard to Wayne Moten (11/13/07):
I agree with what you have pointed out. Again, I think this is a case when the BRI gets too wrapped up in its petty Adventist disagreements. Thanks for articulating this error on their part.
Debbedo Brown “Sin, the Human Condition and Salvation”
Very good comment, I agree with you God is always seeking for the lost in Luke chapter 14 and 15 Jesus thought many parable to show us not only the condition of the lost but the love of God for the sinner. The other side, is that the sinner have the choice by the free will to accept God gift of grace or reject it, nevertheless the love of God doesn’t change.
Wayne, I agree with you that death did not pass on to all because all sinned. At the end of the comment you mentioned reasons a person is justified. I would call those results rather than reasons.
This week I really enjoyed Daniel's submission especially the last section.Quoting Blazen he writes: I like what Blazen said: “Justification grants assurance, but judgment guards it.” The power of choice plays a vital role in the keeping of the gift of salvation in the hands of the saved sinner. That’s the kind of a freedom we have inherited from Christ who freed us from the bondage of inability to choose. Even though we have already pledged our allegiance to Christ for loyalty and obedience, still we have the choice not to continue at our own expense. We choose to have Lord over us or not. I love the way this indivisible character of Christ as both Saviour and Lord/Master was described in the following: He comes to us in love-in the light and strength of it He asks that we be loving. He comes to us in mercy-in the joy and power of it He asks that we be merciful. He comes to us in forgiveness-He asks that we be forgiving. He comes to us in kindness-He asks that we be kind. He comes to us in gentleness-He asks that we be gentle. He comes to us in sacrifice-He asks that we live sacrificially. He comes to us as our servant-He asks that we serve others. "As Saviour and Lord, Christ judged sin at the cross, justifies the sinner by faith, and judges the justified by works." Our reaction to humankind should certainly reflect Christ's attitutude. Our behavior to those with whom we come in contact must reflect the Savior they may never see.
Comments on Garfield's post: In regards to the question raised at the end of your most interesting post about whether being saved by God meant that one is saved forever, and cannot be plucked from the hands of God, here are my views: 1. All those who have come to Christ, and abide in him will not be plucked away from Him by the devil. 2. Those who have embraced his life transforming grace are not immune to sin, and are saved so long as they walk in the light of his love. 3.Salvation is by grace through faith, and it is also a free gift. It is my firm belief that anyone who abides in Christ will be sustained by him through life challenging moments. Keep the faith.
Re: Tim's comment .."Reading the BRI article about Problems with Universal Legal Justification leaves me with some questions. If people are legally justified by God, why is it that they have to at the same time be transformed by the Spirit. Can God save a person and work with them through their struggles until they can give up whatever it is that they are struggling with?
I wanted to respond to Tim because I just read Jan Paulson article that addresses this same question. Here is just one excerpt that practically responds to this question:
"I believe we make an unfortunate mistake when we define justification so narrowly as to make it mean only a legal declaration of acquittal. I would suggest that passages of Scripture such as Romans 5:1-5 and Galatians 2:15-21 give a much more dynamic definition of the concept. When a man is justified, he receives at the same time both the imputed righteousness of Christ and the Holy Spirit into his heart. The gracious gift by which salvation is a reality contains both. Justification is by faith, without works (Rom 3:28). The gift of the Holy Spirit is similarly by faith, without the works of the law (Gal 3:2, 5). In Romans 5:1-5 these two are so linked that one cannot be present without the other. Therefore, notwithstanding the theoretical priority we may give to justification, it constitutes one united experience with that of the renewal brought by the presence of the Holy Spirit. Restoring the relationship between God and man, which sin destroyed, is more than just an objective legal declaration. It is dynamic, and affects the complete life of the total person. In the judicial declaration of acquittal the creative power of God does something to a person. A miracle takes place. As the believer is acquitted, the creative powers of the Almighty are released in the life, changes occur, and a new creature emerges." ("Salvation by Faith" -BRI Article)
I think that there are many people who receive "instant victory" over some sins and others have to struggle through the "rehabilitation process" before they gain the victory. But when we look at sins as just habits or acts then it's easy to talk about getting over sins. However, when we consider that we are sinners by nature and our natures would not be changed until this mortal puts on immortality then we can see why we'll always need God's grace and also need to die daily.
I think that the BRI and 1888 camp are looking at sins in two different ways. Those who look at sins as just wrong acts often emphasize sanctification and those who see sin as nature tend to emphasize justification by faith.
The answer to your question regarding whether a person who is saved forever and cannot be plucked from God’s hands is found In Rom. 11. There was a time when all Israel was in the hand of God however, some got released (broken off) from His hands because of disobedience. Nevertheless, those who remained obedient were not plucked out or became broken branches but remained in the Savior care. Paul warned the gentiles who replaced the disobedient Jews to be careful that pride and boasting do not cause them to be released from the Savior’s hand. Therefore, one can be released from the Savior’s firm through disobedience and one can remain in the Savior’s firm grip through obedience that is built on love.
Commenting on Jeffs Posting I am in agreement with you that we should focus more on what Christ has done for man because this is the key for forming a loving relationship with Him, which will virtually give victory over sin. Be fore God gave the Israelites the law at Mount Sinai; He reminded them that He was the One who delivered them. Their contemplation on this fact was design that in love for God did for them they would keep His commandments. Thus as we ruminate upon what Christ has done for us at the cross such love will certainly lead us to love and be faithful to Him.
I too am in agreement with you that Jesus death on the cross did not provide automatic justification for the human race irrespective if a person accepts it or not. It is true that Christ death on the cross-provided justification for everyone, however this can only be realized whenever a person accepts it through faith.
Thank you for your comments that the Bible as well as Mrs. White’s writing should be studied within their context. I agree that many in the Church have often misused the Spirit of prophecy to validate their own intentions. Some I believe twist the spirit of prophecy in this because they have not employed the proper hermeneutics in studying Mrs. White’s writings. Since her writings are inspired as the Bible, the same tools that are used to unpack the truths of the Bible should be used to unpack hers. By reasoning this way, I am not placing the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy on the same footing, because the Bible is the greater light and the Spirit of prophecy is the lesser light. However the employment of proper tools will produce correct interpretations for both the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy.
One of the things Martin Hanna’s Cosmic Christ of Scripture does for me is that it broadens my view of the Word of God, helps me appreciate nature more, and gives me opportunities to ask more questions before arriving at a reasonable hermeneutical conclusion. For this reason, I am deeply grateful. As I continue to explore the richness of this fascinating work, oftentimes I wrestle with certain statements such as “Christ has not exchanged His divinity for humanity; but He had clothed His divinity in humanity.” (Top page 90) “Christ did nothing that human nature cannot do if it partakes of the divine nature.” (Page 94) To me, it seems that these two statements are or appear very contradictory. The divinity and humanity of Christ become obvious to mankind especially to seekers and believers like me. The first statement suggests that Jesus came with His divinity. He was covered with human skin, but it was the Creator of the universe that was here. In fact, Emanuel is God with us. Had not He come with such a power from above he would not have overcome temptations and sins. That allows me to say that only Christ can be sinless. There is no room for sinfulness either. Furthermore, there is no insanity in divinity. It makes it a little uneasy to understand Hebrews 4: 15 which say “For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.” Unlike us, He could not be with sin because He came into a world of sin with divinity, with no sinfulness. So, in Christ, both God and man were here. In other words, the personhood of God has never been without man in the son of man while on earth. Neither has the Son of man been without God. Apparent the possibility of sin was not even in Him. Furthermore, the Savior had not developed a relationship with His heavenly father. He had been having that intimacy all along. No wonder He could not sin! Notice the second statement will be discussed in the following posting. Dear reader, before I give you a break let me say this: There is no power in heaven and on earth that can keep us away from sin while having that sinful nature except when God and man become one. See you soon! Montes Estinphil
Romans Chapter 6, BRI-The Dynamics of Salvation and Whidden Chapter 7-Atonement
Romans chapter six can be divided into three sections: Dead to Sin, Alive to God and Slaves to Righteousness. Verse 23 concludes and summarized the chapter by saying that the penalty for sin is death, but there is a contrast, that is; the gift of God is eternal life. This gift is Jesus’ death and atonement. If a man pays this wage for his own sins, he dies and the chance to gain access to God and eternal life is lost. This leaves God with three alternatives: He could simply let each person die for his sins. He could, like an indulgent grandfather, overlook sin and grant mankind access to Him, all the while hoping for the best. As His holy justice demanded, He could allow the death of another to substitute for the payment of sin for the sinner who wanted access to Him and met the conditions. But this last choice, the one God chose, presented another problem. The substitute had to be a sinless human being, since God cannot die and only a man who lived a sinless life would qualify, because if the substitute sinned, his death would pay only for his own sins. In addition, this person had to be of such importance and stature in his own right that his vicarious death to pay for other men's sins would never have to be repeated. Once this substitute gave his life, it would apply to all mankind for all time. For salvation to be realized by an individual he/she must accept the following: Man stands condemned before God. Man is alienated from our true self and from one another. Man is alienated from God the creator. Thus God took the initiative to make restoration available, man must then respond to God’s love and grace in order to be saved.
This comment is in reference to the following statement made by Marcus: "Legal universal justification is a ridiculous notion and for the life of me I can’t figure out how intelligent people (scholars) come up with some of the concepts that they do."
Perhaps some of the "scholars" have a head knowledge but lack a heart knowledge, as with Nicodemus in the Bible.
Many will be saved who have no knowledge of the word justification. They have just experienced the process through faith in Jesus' shed blood.
Andy wrote: Faith can also be viewed as obedience... it is obedience to a call. It is by accepting the obligation to live a life of discipleship that faith becomes obedience.
Hi Andy,
I appreciate your comments on Paulsen’s “Salvation by Faith.” I wondered though, was Paulsen’s sermon clear cut to you about the differences between faith and obedience. Or was the language just a bit ethereal? Is there a difference between the two? I saw his saying that they are the same thing. I’d like to hear your response to this before I share thoughts, but because this blog is a little challenging to navigate, let me go ahead and share my thought in being not completely settled on the matter. The difference is in what that obedience garnered. As if obedience can garner anything – Paul says that that was the Israelites bad (Rom 11:28-32). If salvation is based on Christ’s merits alone, then why is there a need from my obedience? I mean, after all, nothing is based on my works, but upon my obedience (and that seems like works).
Dear reader, To fully understand this idea that runs throughout this posting, you need to have read the previous one. So, if you haven’t done that then take a quick look. Welcome back to part II. “Christ did nothing that human nature may not do if it partakes of the divine nature” (page 94). The concern of part one is that Christ came clothed with divinity while we all came here only with humanity and yet we are expected to do everything Christ has done if not more. Jesus is 100% God and 100% man. On one hand, the divinity has no limitations except the restriction He has placed on Himself in giving the freedom of choice to intelligent human beings. On the other hand, His humanity has so much lack that makes His level of limitation even higher. He had to constantly, earnestly, and intentionally seek the presence of divinity. Now, one can begin to understand how difficult it would have been if Jesus had chosen to go ahead with His own plan without the satisfactory input of God. There is power when divinity and humanity join hands, hearts, and mind together. In order to bring fruit, there must be a connection between the vine and the branches. Jesus, as God, says “without Me you can nothing”. If we abide in Christ nothing will be impossible for us to do. Why do we accomplish so little? It was August 2003 I was in Ottawa in Canada when the power went out. Thursday came with no power; Friday no power! Saturday came with no electricity. A carpenter was to work without amplified tools and he experienced so many struggles. His daughter, Judie who was five at the time said “dad, why don’t you wait for the power? You can do much more with power.” Whenever God’s Power gets to enter into human’s efforts there is an explosion of fruits of love, peace, joy, patience, understanding, and a contagious, earnest, and burning desire to impart in order to impact. A real person reaches out to divinity as well as humanity as longs as life lasts in the cosmos. Dear Jesus, Let’s make a deal. We have a fair amount of humanity. If you only give us the divinity you had with you on earth, with the technology we have in the global village today, we promise, we will do more than you did while being 100% human. At least, give us the power that poured out on the day of Pentecost. Otherwise humanity will overcome divinity and we will not be wise. Thank you for your willingness to clothe us with your divinity. Just like we always wear clothes to go everywhere we will always have you on from this time forth and forever more. Montes Estinphil
Comment on Debbedo Brown Romans 9; Ellen White on Salvation; BRI Document: Some Theological Considerations of Perfection I am under the conviction that my friend, Debbedo, has been really studying. I agree with his comment that just because God has foreknowledge it doesn’t mean that it is His divine will for the things to happen. Using Esau and Jacob was an excellent idea in providing examples for his points. Also, I would like to venture a little farther and mention Pharoah (Armenthotep) when God used Moses and Aaron to bring the plagues upon the land of Egypt. Although God knew that Pharoah would become bitter and hardened by the plagues, He (God) had hoped that Pharoah would be saved. Whereas it is true that God omniscient, I believe that His love in many instances prohibits Him from interfering with mankind’s free choice. Indeed, if God was to intervene in every situation on every occasion and cause people to do His bidding, there will be no such thing as a free choice (a choice that mankind makes own their own) and people will only be mere automatons. I also believe that although God knows the future that people have the ability to turn their lives around. The idea of predestination has been contaminated with the belief that whoever is lost that it was predetermined. This is saying that salvation was meant for some but not for others. The Bible tells us that Christ came to seek and save those who were lost. In essence, He came to save to whole world. However, not everyone will accept His gift of salvation. If someone is lost, it is because of his or her own choosing. Just like Satan, people have come to the point where they blame God for the decisions that they or someone else make. God will not, at least I don’t believe that He will, pull someone into heaven by the hand while he or she is kicking and screaming. It is possible that the person will be most miserable there. Therefore, God has made us free moral agents giving us the right to choose. Whatever choice a person makes, he or she must be willing to reap the rewards of his or her decision.
Mika, Thanks for your post and for your comments on whidden’s take on E.G white and salvation. I see and feel your struggle with Paul position on the issue of salvation and the concept of God’s choosing who would be saved. I think it might be difficult to categorized Paul theology into Armenians or Calvinism. Notice that Paul himself is trying to find a balanced way of expressing what he is struggling with. Paul is in no way dogmatic and I think we too should not be dogmatic.
Radal, Good job, you have tackled the issues raised in the chapter in whiodden’s book “Adam and the Human race” It does seem as if whatever choice Adam made would have affected us but how and to what extent we do not know. If Adam had rejected Jesus as savior may not have affected my salvation because salvation is not offered through Adam although death come because of him. Salvation is through promised to me when Adam sin not after he accepted Christ.
On the complexity of my model, note that it is not my model which says that there are past, present, and future dimensions of salvation. Scripture says so. What I am suggesting is that we need a model that will help us come to grips with the complexity of the biblical data. Such a model must be wholistic. However, it is important to point out that it is not the model that produces the complexity. Rather, the model is an attempt to grasp the complexity.
So with regard to Pastor Paul Peno, he is wrestling, as we all are, with the complexity of the biblical data. He has not so much proposed a model as he has simply stated what the Bible teaches. There is a sense in which we are forgiven provisionally as a race; and there is a sense in which we are forgiven individually by faith. In addition to this, the Bible teaches that there is a sense in which justification is yet future at the judgment.
I don’t believe that any one will discover a perfect single model to explain justification and salvation. Actually, justification and salvation are in themselves two of the many biblical models which describe God’s work in redemption, another model. So when I call for a bigger wholistic model, I am simply calling for us to embrace all the biblical models of salvation.
MATENA KEFA ROMANS CHAPTER 5 NEW LIFE IN GOD'S GRACE: Paul, after taking time from chapter one all the way up to chapter five to make a connection of what he as been labouring to have his listers know.Now Paul summarizes this new experience of justification through faith in christ and points us to the realities that flow from it.The first of the new realities that flow from justification is peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.The Hebrew concept of peace that paul grew up with was much more wholistic than our concept of the term.Peace reffered to well being and wholeness in its broadest sense.Once we have been justified, there is no longer any thought of God's wrath.Once we become acquiainted with God's love and His action for us,we live at peace,secure in anew relationship of total wellbeing in harmony with Him.Yet this is not all.We have also gained access into grace.What is more,we now stand on that grace.It is as if grace is a new air that we breath or a new world on which we stand.we live in a new atmosphere, anew place.To be a christian is to breathe the atmosphere of grace, secure in God's acceptance.Yet a new stance to the future flows from justification as well.The stance is characterized by hope.Paul here says that we boast in the hope of the Glory of god.Boasting in hope is a confidence that faces the future unafraid.Paul repeatedly uses the word boast three times,where he sayswe boast in hope,we boast in sufferings and we boast in God.The three together show the kind of confidence and assurance that defines the christian life.Because we have confidence in God,we also have confidence in the future and live in hope.What does it mean to boast in suffering?Paul's emphasis is on the way that hope transcends everything else in life,even suffering.Christians can boast in suffering because they boast in God and know that the future is at His hands.Not even suffering can deter such hope and confidence.Paul's summary of the christian experience by pointing out that the holy spirit, God as poured out his love into our hearts, where He points to us that the grace,peace faith and righteousness are metaphors and picture words he uses that open the window of how God loves us.
fy of life when we were baptized in union with christ,we now live in anew atmosphere of union with him, and we share in the certainty of being united with Him in the resurrection as well.
I like your analysis of Romans 11. I wonder how Paul’s view of an “invisible remnant” would correlate with Jon Paulien’s idea of the invisible remnant being comprised of Jews, Muslims and Christians.
Dale, Thanks for your insights on the salvation issue identifying that we all struggle with sin and are in need of salvation. I like your statement that salvation is a basic need; it certainly caused me to do some thinking. With regard to your question on what else do we need to do if we are saved by faith alone? Well, exercising faith is doing something. We must accept the salvation offered in order for it to be effective.
Walter, Your post on Romans 2 is very informative. I appreciate your story and your emphases on love. I agree that doctrine without love if not salvific, we should not negate doctrine or teaching but people need to know that they are truly loved and that we are genuinely concern for them both spiritually and emotionally. I must say this though, people will always be uncomfortable when there doctrinal comfort zone is disturbed, but with a little tact seasoned with love dialog can be done.
Jamie, Your Week 8 Submission has some very good points. I especially share your passion for the priceless gift of salvation and abhor the term cheap grace. Some have the tendency to mix or confuse free with cheap. Conventional secular socio-economic society value things by price tag; so that the more expensive it is the better it is, thus, if it is inexpensive it must be inferior. There is a tendency to treat the free gift of salvation the same way. But salvation is not free because it is cheap, but rather it is free because no one would be able to pay the full cost.
Wayne, In response to your post on Ellen White on Salvation, Chpt.9; Romans 9; and BRI Document, “Justification by Faith and Judgment According to Works”
I must say good job, raised some very important questions. It is very important to note that works plays a vital part in our salvation experience for works is the material that is measured (we are judged by our works). The key to understanding the work faith relationship is to be able to put them in order. Which comes first faith or works? I believe we are first saved by what Jesus has done for us, we must then accept it by faith. Faith in itself is an action word and when faith is exercised it is manifested in behavior or works. Works as I understand it are an outgrowth of faith. Rudolph Sterling
Comments on Andy's Post: I read with interest your post on Dr. Reid's article. I must say i found it interesting and thought provoking. I , like you believe that we should engage in relentless pursuit for others in love.This include even those who have hurt us. Love should be the motivating factor in all we say and do in this Christian walk. For "God so loved that he gave his only begotten son..." (Jh. 3:16). It is because of the love of God why we are spared from many attacks by the enemy. I am thankful that the love of Christ prevails!
Garfield, Thanks for your post on Chapter 6 of Romans. You have great insights. Let me agree with you that the bill has been paid, that is the bill for our salvation. But this raises a question in my mind and that is, who got the check and why? Why is Christ sacrifice for sin seen as a payment of a debt owed to someone or something? Not only does some SDA’s not understand concept of salvation is a free gift from God I get the feeling that some would prefer to work for it, and some attempts to do so. They feel if they work for it is more valuable. They seem to suffer from what I call “the anything free or cheap is inferior syndrome” therefore not only do they work but they work hard. As far as I understands it salvation is neither free nor cheap, it does not cost me anything simply because it is a gift. It is oxymoronic to pay for a gift.
I like the metaphor that Andy used to describe the link between sin and death. It really made it clear that sin always has a company, death, which follows it. I also like the point that he made that Adam embraced this sin, as a result we reap the result of his sins. However, it is refreshing to note that we are not left in our sins to suffer the inevitable consequence, death. Rather Christ has redeemed us by His present blood so that we can experience life and have it more abundantly. We would all be in misery if today we did not have such assurance that Christ has paid the inevitable result of death. Thus as Paul declare in Rom. 5:20 that where sin abound grace much more abound. It is grace that guarantees our salvation.
Azahel, This is a response to your comment on the BRI article title, “"The Dynamics of Salvation." Good insights and thought provoking questions. It is true that it is not easy to visualize justification, sanctification and glorification in a past, present, and future in the same time. I think it would be helpful to look at the whole salvation sequence in the “already and not yet motif” The problem is that we have look at salvation as a sequence for so long that it is difficult to accept it instantaneously. Justification, sanctification and glorification is already done on our behalf but we have not yet fully experienced it because we are still living in this world. The goal of salvation is to extricate us from this life, the extrication process is still happening, but promise of extrication is sure; therefore, it can be enjoyed as already happened.
280 comments:
1 – 200 of 280 Newer› Newest»My comment is in regards to Walter's question at the end of his assignment. I shall quote his question here and then give my answer below:
WALTER WROTE: "A QUESTION I have is with regard to 1:18 where the 'wrath of God is revealed.' Does that mean the wrath was already there but hidden, God knowing (or perhaps predestinating) men to make evil choices and then revealing His wrath, which was already in existence but somehow hidden until it was 'revealed'? Like the wrath already there and God was hiding it until everybody else could see the evil actions of those men? I would love some feedback from a Calvinist on this one, but for now I'll take feedback from a bunch of fellow SDA seminarians."
I don't know what a Calvinist's response would be, but as far as where I am at in my understanding right now, God's wrath is very different than what I first thought it to be. Previously, when I thought of wrath, I thought of man's wrath--you know, the usual fits of rage, untempered anger, extreme desires to destroy or cause impairment.
The view that has gotten me really thinking views God's wrath as an act of unselfish love and justice and mercy all blended together.
In Romans 1:24, 26, 28 and Romans 2:5-9 we see a manifestation of God's wrath. His wrath seems from these passages to be (as the Scripture puts it) a "giving them up" and "giving them over" to the very things they loved.
Romans 2:5 indicates that it is possible to treasure up wrath and the intensity of this wrath, it would seem from the passage, is related in direct proportion to the hardness of that persons heart and devotion to sin.
Thus in response to your question, as to whether God's wrath is always there and it is just being revealed, I would have to say "yes." God's wrath is always there just as right is always there in contrast to wrong. And God's wrath is revealed when His created beings reach the point of no turning back. They have ran from His grace and slighted His mercy so much that they are imperceptible to its influence anymore. At that point, God gives them up to their lusts, the very desires they were craving for and as a result, their destruction is sure. They crash and burn so to speak.
However, this definition, as I am explaining it does not seem to adequately account for hell fire at least not as I understand it. Scripture tells us God most definitely calls forth hell fire on the wicked. So, I am looking for a "bigger model" as Hanna would put it. None the less, I think it does have some Biblical merit that needs to be considered when dealing with the topic of God's wrath. God's wrath is not arbitrary and it seems to be tempered by the degree of hardness each individuals heart is.
Eric Ollila said...
Another aspect tied to this question is: what was it specifically about the Sacrifice of Christ that enabled God to immediately place the “enmity” between the woman and the devil?” Without the sacrifice of Christ, could God have placed that enmity there? If not, then what specifically was it—what shall we call it—that He did for ALL of humanity, both believers and unbelievers alike? It seems to me, in light of Romans 6:16, the Sacrifice of Christ had to provide some sort of a “shield” or “provision” or whatever you want to call it, for ALL of sinful humanity before they were even capable of exercising faith. Whether that shield could be called a certain type of justification, I don’t know. Another question to ask then is this: If Christ did not provide some sort of Universal provision for ALL of humanity, then why is it that the wicked receive a “resurrection” after the millennium? Christ said He is the resurrection and the life, and the wicked had nothing to do with Christ—they outright rejected Him, that’s why they're called the “wicked”, so why are they going to experience a resurrection if indeed Christ’s sacrifice did not provide some sort of Universal provision for all of humanity—even them? Are you catching my point???
I think that Eric raises some very salient points here. The Bible does say that Jesus is the Lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world. (Rev. 13:8)
This would indicate to me that in some "already-and-not-yet" way Christ's sacrifice was available to man even BEFORE he sinned. This is indeed universal availability but man still had to CHOOSE to accept the sacrifice.
This is the sense in which the "enmity" was immediately available to Adam after he sinned.
As to the resurrection of the wicked. God is the One who sustains the wicked (including Satan himself) right now because all life comes from HIM. But I don't think that resurrection of the wicked is done in "favor" to them, EXCEPT that they get an opportunity to see God's justice and righteousness.
My comment is about Jonathan Russell's entry with Ch. 1 of Whidden's book.
I agree with him about the unique chronological format of the book and was also very impressed with the introduction. About the 'teeter totter' example, I disagreed with Jon about it being a bad example. For ME it was a good alalogy because it exhibits the tension I often have with perfection and justification. I was raised in different denomination that very much emphasized human effort/perfection (and actually heard books from the holiness movement of EGW's day admonishing total sinlessness and claiming it on Sabbath afternoons which Whidden refered to) and perfection has been a struggle for me in my late teen years when I came back to God (I also came back to the 'God' of my childhood which included an unhealthy view of perfection). So yes, ideally perfection and justification should work together, but my experience there has been and continues to be some teeter totter tension. I think this book will be a real blessing to me in 'rescueing EGW' from my 'EGW thumping' scars:).
This comment is in response to Marcus Vassell’s post on 9/8/07 where he asks the question “what am I set apart to?” I think this is a really important question which each one of us needs to seriously ask ourselves. Marcus raises an important point that it’s possible we could be set apart to a career, professional prestige, or financial security instead of firstly to proclaiming the gospel of God. In the first few chapters of “Ellen White on Salvation” by Whidden, Ellen White stands as a good example of one who constantly sought to find out if she was indeed set apart entirely to God. On p17 we read “…her mind constantly dwelt upon the subject of ‘holiness of heart’. She vividly recollected how she ‘longed above all things to obtain this great blessing’ and have the assurance that she ‘was entirely accepted of God.’” Ellen’s constant seeking finally brought her the assurance she sought. And so it is with us today, our constant and genuine seeking, with the question in mind “what am I set apart to,” will work to refocus our attention on the #1 priority of proclaiming the gospel. I like this question because it’s a sort of “checks and balances” question for our spiritual direction in life.
Walter, thanks for sharing your experiences inside and outside the SDA Church. You make an eloquent and needed appeal for us to be nice as well as correct in our witnessing to the truth. Your experience shows that the tendency to be obnoxious when sharing the faith also exists among some non-Adventists.
My experience also parallels yours when you point out that too often we are the ones who forget Christian courtesy when sharing Christ. Check out this quote from Ellen White. “If we would . . . be kind and courteous and tenderhearted and pitiful, there would be one hundred conversions to the truth where now there is only one” (Testimonies, 9:189).
Martin Hanna.
Dale,
I enjoyed your insightful comments concerning the great basic need for salvation. I agree and so basic is that need that it dates back to the Eden experience of our first parents. They had it (the gift of salvation), but lost it, yet they regained it through acceptance. Therefore, that free gift is available also to each of us by faith.
In response to your thought provoking question: Is salvation only by faith and faith alone? “Faith without works is dead.” James 2:14-20.
Dale, please reflect prayerfully on the following scriptures:
James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
2:15
If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
2:16
And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
2:18
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works
2:19
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
2:20
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
The second question: If we have faith what else do we need?
Abraham’s experience demonstrated that faith and obedience cannot be separated. The two go hand in hand. “By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.” Heb. 11:8
I’m sure many students exhibited great faith in coming here to study in answer to the call of God. The same may be true of you.
Peace and blessings Dale, as you follow on to know the Lord.
Your Sister-in-Christ,
Geraldine O'Neal
My comment is in regard to Rudolph Sterling’s post.
I empathize with your story of being stressed out about reaching “perfection” as a young person. I only hope that we can be pastors that don’t over-simplify soteriology to the point of scaring kids. This is a good point, and one I'm glad you brought up.
“This work of salvation will reach perfection at the end of time when Jesus comes again.” This line is intriguing to me. How about the New Earth that we read about in Revelation? Will we be done with salvation already? Will there be anything new to learn from Jesus throughout eternity? Will that be a part of salvation? How about the “learning and unlearning” (EGW) that we have to do in heaven? Is that a continuation of the work of salvation?
It is interesting that the topic of Salvation in Christian perspective is complicated. It is not a easy theme to comprehend but it is a wonderful subject to wrestle with. It provides a wide opportunity to learn and to discuss. It challenges human understanding and limitations.
I would like to start mention the two side of salvation. The God’s sovereignty and human freedom. Both great themes are two side of the same coin. They are both position to human salvation. They provide de 8 salvation principles that has been studied and taught in the two main cathedrals: the Calvinistic and the Armenian or as we said in our modern language the orthodox and reformed.
I always thought that I was more orthodox theology oriented than reformed , but during this classes I have discovered that I have in my position a strong reformed concepts. It really caught my attention and it has created in me in deep desire to continue studding this class.
In regard to Geoff Blake's post:
"it raises questions some classic questions about missionary activity: If “men are without excuse” just from looking at nature, how does that relate to the traditional Adventist idea that all people have to hear the name of Jesus before he comes?"
In some minds "Jesus" has become the magic word that will relieve us of our duty. My perception of many missional activities is one of militant precision to enter, present truth and exit rapidly to the next heathen location. We don't love people we simply don't want to come up short on the judgement day. We will proudly quote Christ some statistics of number of countries entered, and sit back waiting for the admiration of Christ for our efforts. People need to see Chrisitanity more often than they need to hear it.
My response for the questions posted by Geoffrey Blake who wrote: “Paul seems to be saying that the general revelation through creation is enough to point people to the one true God. For me, it raises questions some classic questions about missionary activity: If “men are without excuse” just from looking at nature, how does that relate to the traditional Adventist idea that all people have to hear the name of Jesus before he comes? Also, how does “knowledge about Jesus” correlate with salvation?
I believe that you’re referring to what Matthew wrote about the preaching of the gospel into all the world and then the end shall come. The everlasting gospel is the love of God for humanity revealed through Jesus Christ which people ought to know in order to respond to God’s invitation of faith positively. One way or the other only God knows how to reach the unreached and let them know about his gift of salvation but he opted to use us his followers to share this to as much as we can.
On the second question, “how does knowledge about Jesus correlate with salvation?” Knowledge with Jesus relates with salvation simply because he’s the savior and knowing him is to know God the Father who loved mankind so much. I believe the real issue here boiling is this, how can others relate their salvation by seeing the life of Jesus living in me? Am I active or passive on my faith? Actually, the statement of Paul in Chapter 1:16 saying: “For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.”, plays like a motivator or a guilt tripper for me, depending on where you are in your stage of faith.
Dan
Walter wrote: “I welcome your comments on your experiences of the love/acceptence/kindness that draws people to God in comparison of SDA and evangelical churches (please, if your whole life is inside the SDA bubble, your comments are only theory. I want actual experiences inside and out side the church).”
Your post brought me back to my actual encounters with SDA bible students and non-SDA’s as well. SDA laymen would love to flock together and study the Word of God and debate among each other just to show who has better information or not. On the other hand, seldom do we see them share these knowledge to those who are unchurched or friends of different faith leading to their conversion. The good thing here is that they love doing things together and may it be next time to the more productive manner. SDA’s are the most well informed people, most of us are guilty of hording, though.
My experiences with non-sda Christians are varied, some are sweet but most of them were bitter-sour, why? Because it was flavored with my own personality, a gasoline engine in terms of temper. But through the years as I kept going and giving Bible studies either one-on-one or in groups, I learned how to slow down in raising my temper but still its there. I found out though that, on one-on-one Bible studies, I am more calm and gentle. But on group discussions, my ears turn red and my back hair stands stiffly whenever the discussion moves from study to condemnation from the other side.
It’s my wish that the same passion for “sharing the truth” on a friendly, loving manner be more reflective of us all both now and the future, ‘til Jesus comes.
Dan
I am commenting about Marcus Vassell's comment.
I think that He is on the right track asking questions about why are we here. What brought us here may be a call to ministry or it could be something else. What keeps us here? What is our motivation to follow our call? Marcus has reminded me that I need to ask these tough questions and be honest with myself and with God. I believe that this is something that will cause our lives/ministry to be effective. I also appreciated that Marcus pointed out that every person needs to be on their guard against temptation and sin. May we rely on God to give us the Holy Spirit to serve out of love rather than some personal agenda. My prayer is that each of us be separated to the gospel.
My comment is in regard to Tim.
I agree that Romans 2 sounds a lot like James. It makes me wonder what Martin Luther was thinking when he embraced Paul’s writings wholeheartedly, and called the book of James “worthless.” Maybe there are more correlations than he originally saw . . .
Something that I think is worth throwing into the mix is the idea of the sheep and the goats that Jesus talks about in Matthew 25. “For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me” (vs. 35-36). These are the people Jesus describes as ones who will be able to experience “eternal life.” So, where does this view play in to all of the articles from the BRI and the chapters in Romans dealing with personal morality, perfection, repentance, etc.?
This comment is for Marcus on your submission of 9-8-07. I really enjoyed how you put the ever growing life. I have also found that the closer I am to God the more I see my own perfections. I have a very hard time even thinking that I would ever be sinless. But I can tell you one thing I am ever so glad that Jesus came to save us from that sin. I have seen the old me and I would never want to go back. I have also questioned what being set aside really means in my life. I know that there are things that I don't do because I belong to Christ but what difference am I making to the world? What does God have for my life? I am not sure that I will ever know the true answers to all of these questions but I am glad that they were raised in your mind and in your writing.
In Response to Walter who said: “To be blunt, I've found that being around some evangelical churches, they may have 'very basic theology' and 'just stick to the simple Salvation message' and not go into prophecy, diet... but the love and acceptence I've felt in their presence tends to be more than I get in 'logical minded' SDA gatherings.”
You are definitely on to something here. I’m an Adventist “lifer” so I’m not the type that you were soliciting responses from. But…I had the privilege of interning for two years in an Adventist church under a pastor who understood this very point and I learned a lot from him. I had the opportunity to go into the homes of people who had been personally destroyed by “logical-minded” (read: judgmental) Adventists. Through a process of experiencing life together, sometimes studying the scriptures together (not trying to prove anything, just learning together), sometimes just processing the emotional pain of life, sometimes just hanging out, I saw people come to the church when they had told me on our first visit that they really weren’t interested. In short, love and acceptance works, even with our own marginal, or even former, members.
In Response to Eric Ollila:
I found your definition of wrath fascinating. I have never looked at this issue in this way. You wrote, “His wrath seems from these passages to be (as the Scripture puts it) a "giving them up" and "giving them over" to the very things they loved.” So then wrath is simply letting them do what they willed to do in the first place. I find God’s wrath an active rather than a passive activity. I did a word study and here are three verses I found helpful. Ezra 8:22, “The hand of our God is upon all them for good that seek him; but his power and his wrath is against all them that forsake him.” John 3:36, “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.” Roman 1:18, “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness.” I am not sure if God’s wrath is only revealed to those who have no chance of turning back. “God’s wrath is revealed when His created beings reach the point of no turning back. They have ran from His grace and slighted His mercy so much that they are imperceptible to its influence anymore. At that point, God gives them up to their lusts, the very desires they were craving for and as a result, their destruction is sure.”
I refuse to believe anyone is that far. I am open to verses that could point this out but I don’t find that God’s grace is cut off from us unless we are dead or until the day Jesus comes. Often we find those who were previously lost restore their faith in God, just read the Old Testament. This is essentially about God wooing a disobedient people.
My comment is in response to the question Walter asked about the wrath of God.
It was never God’s intention that man would sin and as a result suffer His displeasure. What we always have to be aware of is that God hates sin in all its forms and His wrath is being manifested against it. It takes only the wrath of God to destroy sin, and as it is revealed against it, the wrath of God consumes those who cling to sin without the intention of ever giving it up. Take for example I am from Jamaica, unfortunately my country has been frequently ravished by hurricanes. A couple of weeks a go hurricane Dean devastated the island. Before the hurricane persons living in low line or flooded areas were warned to go to safer places because if not their lives would be in danger. Some heeded this warning and fled to safer grounds while some stayed and sadly suffered death because of stubbornness and disobedience. Similarly, God warns through the presentation of the gospel that man can escape His wrath against sin by having their sins taken away in Jesus; unfortunately, many cling to sin, refuse to go to Jesus and will in the end suffer the full manifestation of God’s wrath. Paul in Rom. 1:18 talks about the wrath about that is being revealed. Revealed in the sense that when man continuously refuse to obey and reject God. He withdraws His protection and allows them to suffer the natural results of their sins. Another way in which His wrath is revealed is at the end of time when He will destroy sin by fire and those who have chosen to be destroyed along with. Therefore, God never predestined man to sin so His wrath would be revealed against them. Neither did He hide His wrath eagerly waiting for man to sin in order to reveal it against them. On the contrary, God’s wrath is directed against sin and those who choose to embrace it will be destroyed with it. Finally, it was because of man’s sins why sin entered into the world. However, God’s ultimate displeasure and disgust against sin was poured out upon Christ at the cross. Thus, it was not guilty man who suffered the full wrath of God but it was His guiltless Son. What wonderful Love! Therefore, no one in the end needs to suffer God’s wrath against sin because Jesus suffered it already. The only way a person will face God’s ultimate wrath is because they turn their backs on His provision of escape through His Son Jesus.
Commenting on "Z. Juniper regarding WHIDDEN CH. 1, "Laughable logic"
Quote: "It is my desire that the church once again search diligently to know Christ, not search to know how they are right. If we are truly seeking to glorify Christ, we will desire to exalt Him not ourselves."
I accept the final paragraph of this comment as reproduced above as Juiper's summary argument.
Talking about laughable logic, it would be counterproductive to study the Bible to prove an already held belief rather than searching the Scriptures like the Bereans to "see if those things were so". (Acts 17:11)
So are most Adventist guilty of proving they are right or searching for the "right" from the Bible?
I agree that often we as church can forget to be kind while we are proving others "wrong" but the Scriptures still has to be searched diligently and "truth" and right doctrines make a difference.
Truth sets you free and allows you to worship the TRUE God, so we cannot have true worship without the truth about who we are worshiping.
I agree with Juniper that we must be careful that we are worshiping Jesus who is the truth personified but can we know Him without the written truth about Him?
Jesus and "right" or righteousness are not opposable concepts.
In Response to Jonathan Russell:
I agree with your comment. Often, because we feel we have the truth, Adventists are quick to give simple pat answers to questions and problems which need a more thorough analysis. This can be frustrating for those who are really seeking a thoughtful answer. I find that relationships in Bible studies and evangelism often are more important than the study itself. Look at the Mormons or Jehovah’s Witnesses’ they evangelize mainly through relationships and even if you can convince them that their beliefs are incorrect they still won’t leave because they won’t leave their family. Note: I am not saying Doctrine is unimportant or should be a low proirity.
In response to Mika's song "He'll Label"...
It was nice to see some light hearted fun here. I'm not sure how I would feel if my theological emphasis was on 'the sovereignty of God,' but the song cracking me up anyways (politically correct or not). You rock man!
In response to Dale A Baker (9/08/2007 10:40 PM).
I agree that it was really neat to see how even a prophet struggled with her salvation and relationship with God. As for the faith question (is salvation solely with faith), I think faith is the basis which Paul so repeatedly and strongly asserts, yet there is a tension there of actions following or actions being integral. The Bible is very clear we are not saved by works, yet there are many Bible stories where works seems to be the 'turning point' or 'critical point' of Salvation. Such stories include the parable of seperating sheep from goats (salvation determined by works), the rich young ruler (what do you lack... sell everything - that's an act) yet Jesus also tells Nicodemas he must be born again (an act of faith?). If I had to choose one option I think faith would be it, but the Bible seems to repeatedly remind us that faith alone is not enough (i.e. James - 'faith w/o works is dead').
Tim Peters wrote:
"I have a problem with the idea in the article that a person must put away their sins before they can be converted and justified. I believe that people are justified when they accept Jesus and He changes them as they grow together. The article points out that God is the one who takes the initiative to make salvation possible. It is interesting to see from verses like 2 Peter 3:9 that there is a response of repentance that is man’s part in the salvation equation."
I believe that you're referring to the last part of the BRI article on legal justification. It's true that justification is God's act but it's man's choice to be justified as made clear in the article discussion.
The initiative of God and man's response to God's initiative are interactive. They come along by choice. Just like the taking of the dirty garment is necessary to keep the new garment clean and pure, God wants us to decide to not mix the two together, this reminds me of not putting new wine in an old wine skin, or disaster will happen. Sin and righteousness cannot live together in one person, the person then must decide which one he will live with.
Dan
This comment is about Garfield's post. He asked "does acceptance of Christ require demonstration of emotions (tears,joy, guilt, sorrow)?"
I believe that God created us each differently and does not expect the same reaction out of everyone when people accept Christ. We each have different personalities that effect what our response is when we interact with Christ. I am thankful that we are unique and God made us to know Him different ways whether it be emotionally or intellectually or in other ways.
Walter,
This is the second attempt to reply to your reflection paper on Salvation. After my devotional meditation this morning, The Holy Spirit impressed me to l read what I had written before closing out my devotion. So I went and turned the computer on and much to my surprise, there was no comment. I assumed that it was sent because I sent it the same as usual, only this time I did not paste my comments from another document, I typed it directly into the comment section. What happened to it? I felt bad until I went to PMC today, because I heard much of what was included there. (1 John 1:9), which to me is the way to Salvation. If we confess … So now starts the process of re-entering the information. But already the Lord is leading me in another direction, so hold tight.
I remember starting with asking you if you had ever seen a poster with a cat with his paws outstretched on a surface which looks like a wall. As it appears that he is about to slide down the wall, you look up at the heading which says “HANG IN THERE.” I feel there are many in the “church” that are just barely holding on. There are some who have become so disillusioned that they leave….some so bitter that they vow never to return. I know because I meet them frequently when I’m canvassing. Usually, after listening to them, I tell them that “It’s time to come home now.” I want them to know Jesus is waiting for them to come home. The thing that people need to realize is that they are not just leaving the “church,” they are turning their backs on Jesus. I have been blessed to see or been told that some returned after surrendering to Jesus. Although there have been many unpleasant experiences for me, Jesus has been a faithful friend. His word never promised that it would be easy or pleasant, He just promised to be with us. If you go into a church, whatever else is going on, if you sincerely desire the presence of God, He will not fail you. Also I’m convinced this ship is going through because the Captain, Jesus said it would though his messenger, E.G. White.
Once I was driving on the interstate, happened to have the radio on, flipping stations, and just as I came up the exit ramp, there was a minister on the radio speaking about the satanic influences surrounding much of the music. That perked my interest because he was calling for people to come together and fast and pray for a week that God would do something about the crime etc. And the Lord spoke to me to go.
The over populated city that I lived in is Decatur, Ga; a part of Metro Atlanta… infested with all kinds of horrible crimes…so much so that shortly before coming here, I was now riding Marta, because The Lord had miraculously spared me in a terrible auto accident. Praise God! On this particular day, near to an area where we distributed tracts, with people standing around, there lay a young man who had been shot, and all I could do then was to pray concerning his soul condition, while wondering if he might have been one who accepted the tracts among others in a group of young men previously.
I included this to show you the need for this prayer and fast that was called. I went as I had been instructed to do and was shocked to see that there were so few people there. This preacher who had spoken out against not just the degrading rap music but also some of what is offered up as praise to God in the “church.” He had a music background and I had a wonderful time there singing and praising God. Many testimonies were given and a lot of intercessory prayer was offered and we were there until the wee, wee hours of the morning. The last evening that I went, when I drove up on the parking lot, I noticed a man sitting in a car and the Lord spoke to me to invite him in. I told him about the prayer meeting and surprisingly he got out of the car and came in. He said he wanted to talk, so we sat near the back. He confessed that he had been unfaithful to his wife and she had put him out, and throughout the conversation, I kept hearing suicide. So we knelt and I prayed and the Holy Spirit spoke to me to let him pray. When I asked him to pray he confessed that he didn’t know how to pray, had never heard The Lord’s Prayer. I had to teach him to pray and showed him where he could pray from the Bible until he learned it. I told the pastor just simply he needed a place to stay. This pastor had a ministry of housing and providing work for homeless…people who had been on drugs; some testified that after the fasting they were able to come off the drugs. One young lady who had been a prostitute, cried in my arms about the change that had taken place in her life. Oh, the young man that I spoke earlier about stayed there for a while, until he found another residence. He said he didn’t want to pressure his wife because he understood her feelings. I’m thankful that God in His mercy drew him.
Just as I was about to leave for camp meeting, I went to get the mail and there was a letter from this Pastor inviting me into their church family. I prayed asking the Lord how to answer it. The Holy Spirit spoke to me to give a testimony. When I returned from camp meeting I wrote, first explaining this annual event of prayer, fasting, soul searching, preaching, praise, preparation for community service and other missionary outreach. The theme that year was “ENDOWED – EMPOWERED – IGNITED” “ But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you; and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.” I told him how much I appreciated his ministry of love---caring for those who have lost their way; also rebuking the evil works of the enemy of souls, of exhorting holiness --- “for without holiness no man shall see God,” of praise – for God is worthy of all praise honor and glory. I told him the prayer and fasting meant so much to me. And sitting at home one night I confessed to God how much I had come to love this flock. I told him that while on my knees one night seeking God for a way to respond to the letter, that the Holy Spirit spoke “Give a testimony.” I began by telling him that I had been attending a tent meeting where God spoke to me through someone whom I never saw before or after that one meeting, saying “Don’t join this church unless the Holy Spirit tells you to.” The sermon had alluded to putting God to the test, and remembering the words of the prayer coming from the preacher, “Lord, give them no rest until they surrender all to you.” Reflecting on what the mysterious lady had spoken to me following benediction (concerning The Holy Spirit), I decided when I went home (following the meeting) that I would pray and ask God myself to reveal to me whether this was truth and whether He wanted me to join this church. Remembering the preacher’s prayer, I prayed “Lord, trouble my dreams and give an answer. That same night, I had a troublesome dream of two ferocious black dogs chasing me. As I ran I saw stairs in a building and as I approached the stairs, I could see a man sitting as it were at a desk, where he appeared to be writing. I looked back, the dogs were close to me but had stopped now in retreat, mouths drooling with the sharpest teeth. I awoke and the next night the same dream with the black dogs chasing me. Again I ran into a place (building) with the stairs, at the top of the stairs again the same man, dressed in white (the purest of white) with white beautiful hair. This time he stood up and handed me a letter. As I climbed the stairs there was such PEACE in his presence (words are not adequate to describe the peace) the closer I got the more peace and suddenly I looked around and the dogs were there but even their expression had changed (subdued – no more sharp teeth). Praise God! I thanked God and prayed that the troubled dreams would cease. They did – I had received my answer. This of course would not be my first baptism, for I sought Christ early as a child at the age of seven. May be I was still running from God, because I found it necessary to go out of town to visit on the Sabbath that I was to be baptized. Then too, my mother had heard such terrible things about Adventist that she pleaded with me not to join. While I was in another town visiting I began to witness about how real God is. As we sat and talked a storm arose – it rained so hard that water started to come into the house. I prayed and promised God if He would permit the storm to cease and allow me to get out of it safely, I would go back and be baptized. He did; and I kept my word and was baptized the next Sabbath. Jesus is still offering this invitation in Matt.11:28 – 30 “Come unto me all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn of me; f or I am meek and lowly in heart and ye shall find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”
Although this has deviated from the original comments that I sent, I feel it was the Lord’s will for me to share it as a witness to myself. “We have nothing to fear for the future, except as we forget the way the Lord has led us, and His teaching in our past history.” Life Sketches, 196
Many have not experienced the Love of Jesus, but Christ can use people like you, Walter with His love in their hearts to show the love of the Father, the Son and The Holy Spirit and the entire heavenly host. Love is a very necessary part of evangelism because it involves sharing. Sharing the good NEWS (the acronym that the Holy Spirit put on my heart for (North East West South)…tell it everywhere that THE KING Is Coming… SOON.
See I feel like Peter in Jn. 6:68, Lord, to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life.
Blessings and Peace!
Geraldine
Walter,
This is the second attempt to reply to your reflection paper on Salvation. After my devotional meditation this morning, The Holy Spirit impressed me to l read what I had written before closing out my devotion. So I went and turned the computer on and much to my surprise, there was no comment. I assumed that it was sent because I sent it the same as usual, only this time I did not paste my comments from another document, I typed it directly into the comment section. What happened to it? I felt bad because until I went to PMC today, because I heard much of what was included there. (1 John 1:9), which to me is the way to Salvation. If we confess … So now starts the process of re-entering the information. But already the Lord is leading me in another direction, so hold tight.
I remember starting with asking you if you had ever seen a poster with a cat with his paws outstretched on a surface which looks like a wall. As it appears that he is about to slide down the wall, you look up at the heading which says “HANG IN THERE.” I feel there are many in the “church” that are just barely holding on. There are some who have become so disillusioned that they leave….some so bitter that they vow never to return. I know because I meet them frequently when I’m canvassing. Usually, after listening to them, I tell them that “It’s time to come home now.” I want them to know Jesus is waiting for them to come home. The thing that people need to realize is that they are not just leaving the “church,” they are turning their backs on Jesus. I have been blessed to see or been told that some returned after surrendering to Jesus. Although there have been many unpleasant experiences for me, Jesus has been a faithful friend. His word never promised that it would be easy or pleasant, He just promised to be with us. If you go into a church, whatever else is going on, if you sincerely desire the presence of God, He will not fail you. Also I’m convinced this ship is going through because the Captain, Jesus said it would though his messenger, E.G. White.
Once I was driving on the interstate, happened to have the radio on, flipping stations, and just as I came up the exit ramp, there was a minister on the radio speaking about the satanic influences surrounding much of the music. That perked my interest because he was calling for people to come together and fast and pray for a week that God would do something about the crime etc. And the Lord spoke to me to go.
The over populated city that I lived in is Decatur, Ga; a part of Metro Atlanta… infested with all kinds of horrible crimes…so much so that shortly before coming here, I was now riding Marta, because The Lord had miraculously spared me in a terrible auto accident. Praise God! On this particular day, near to an area where we distributed tracts, with people standing around, there lay a young man who had been shot, and all I could do then was to pray concerning his soul condition, while wondering if he might have been one who accepted the tracts among others in a group of young men previously.
I included this to show you the need for this prayer and fast that was called. I went as I had been instructed to do and was shocked to see that there were so few people there. This preacher who had spoken out against not just the degrading rap music but also some of what is offered up as praise to God in the “church.” He had a music background and I had a wonderful time there singing and praising God. Many testimonies were given and a lot of intercessory prayer was offered and we were there until the wee, wee hours of the morning. The last evening that I went, when I drove up on the parking lot, I noticed a man sitting in a car and the Lord spoke to me to invite him in. I told him about the prayer meeting and surprisingly he got out of the car and came in. He said he wanted to talk, so we sat near the back. He confessed that he had been unfaithful to his wife and she had put him out, and throughout the conversation, I kept hearing suicide. So we knelt and I prayed and the Holy Spirit spoke to me to let him pray. When I asked him to pray he confessed that he didn’t know how to pray, had never heard The Lord’s Prayer. I had to teach him to pray and showed him where he could pray from the Bible until he learned it. I told the pastor just simply he needed a place to stay. This pastor had a ministry of housing and providing work for homeless…people who had been on drugs; some testified that after the fasting they were able to come off the drugs. One young lady who had been a prostitute, cried in my arms about the change that had taken place in her life. Oh, the young man that I spoke earlier about stayed there for a while, until he found another residence. He said he didn’t want to pressure his wife because he understood her feelings. I’m thankful that God in His mercy drew him.
Just as I was about to leave for camp meeting, I went to get the mail and there was a letter from this Pastor inviting me into their church family. I prayed asking the Lord how to answer it. The Holy Spirit spoke to me to give a testimony. When I returned from camp meeting I wrote, first explaining this annual event of prayer, fasting, soul searching, preaching, praise, preparation for community service and other missionary outreach. The theme that year was “ENDOWED – EMPOWERED – IGNITED” “ But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you; and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.” I told him how much I appreciated his ministry of love---caring for those who have lost their way; also rebuking the evil works of the enemy of souls, of exhorting holiness --- “for without holiness no man shall see God,” of praise – for God is worthy of all praise honor and glory. I told him the prayer and fasting meant so much to me. And sitting at home one night I confessed to God how much I had come to love this flock. I told him that while on my knees one night seeking God for a way to respond to the letter, that the Holy Spirit spoke “Give a testimony.” I began by telling him that I had been attending a tent meeting where God spoke to me through someone whom I never saw before or after that one meeting, saying “Don’t join this church unless the Holy Spirit tells you to.” The sermon had alluded to putting God to the test, and remembering the words of the prayer coming from the preacher, “Lord, give them no rest until they surrender all to you.” Reflecting on what the mysterious lady had spoken to me following benediction (concerning The Holy Spirit), I decided when I went home (following the meeting) that I would pray and ask God myself to reveal to me whether this was truth and whether He wanted me to join this church. Remembering the preacher’s prayer, I prayed “Lord, trouble my dreams and give an answer. That same night, I had a troublesome dream of two ferocious black dogs chasing me. As I ran I saw stairs in a building and as I approached the stairs, I could see a man sitting as it were at a desk, where he appeared to be writing. I looked back, the dogs were close to me but had stopped now in retreat, mouths drooling with the sharpest teeth. I awoke and the next night the same dream with the black dogs chasing me. Again I ran into a place (building) with the stairs, at the top of the stairs again the same man, dressed in white (the purest of white) with white beautiful hair. This time he stood up and handed me a letter. As I climbed the stairs there was such PEACE in his presence (words are not adequate to describe the peace) the closer I got the more peace and suddenly I looked around and the dogs were there but even their expression had changed (subdued – no more sharp teeth). Praise God! I thanked God and prayed that the troubled dreams would cease. They did – I had received my answer. This of course would not be my first baptism, for I sought Christ early as a child at the age of seven. May be I was still running from God, because I found it necessary to go out of town to visit on the Sabbath that I was to be baptized. Then too, my mother had heard such terrible things about Adventist that she pleaded with me not to join. While I was in another town visiting I began to witness about how real God is. As we sat and talked a storm arose – it rained so hard that water started to come into the house. I prayed and promised God if He would permit the storm to cease and allow me to get out of it safely, I would go back and be baptized. He did; and I kept my word and was baptized the next Sabbath. Jesus is still offering this invitation in Matt.11:28 – 30 “Come unto me all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn of me; f or I am meek and lowly in heart and ye shall find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”
Although this has deviated from the original comments that I sent, I feel it was the Lord’s will for me to share it as a witness to myself. “We have nothing to fear for the future, except as we forget the way the Lord has led us, and His teaching in our past history.” Life Sketches, 196
Many have not experienced the Love of Jesus, but Christ can use people like you, Walter with His love in their hearts to show the love of the Father, the Son and The Holy Spirit and the entire heavenly host. Love is a very necessary part of evangelism because it involves sharing. Sharing the good NEWS (the acronym that the Holy Spirit put on my heart for (North East West South)…tell it everywhere that THE KING Is Coming… SOON.
See I feel like Peter in Jn. 6:68, Lord, to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life.
Blessings and Peace!
Geraldine
A comment on Freddy de los Santos reflection on Jan Paulsen's "Salvation by Faith".
Enjoyed your response...your question... "How much is faith worth?" made a powerful point. A million dollars couldn't help...ahhh that makes me smile. I couldn't help but think about the fact that a dollar is nothing other than a "promissary note". A promise from our government's treasury department...a promise based on a flimsy economy...a promise from a group of men. It's sad how quick we are to depend on the promises of man, and how slow we are to depend on the promises of God. Unfortunately it seems we fail to realize this until we're confronted by tragic circumstances of some sort...something that makes us realize how helpless we really are. So in response to your question, "How much is faith worth?"...I agree with you...I believe it's worth it all...it's the "Pearl of Great Price" (Matthew 13:45,46) After all it was "by faith [that Abraham]he sojourned in the land of promise, as [in] a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise."
Enjoyed it...thank you.
My comment is in regard to Malcolm Vassell.
First, I agree that I see myself when reading Ellen White’s journey of faith. It is great to see that she wasn’t some super-human, but truly had a faith adventure as we all do.
Second, if you’re going to make a comment like your last line: “ . . . for the life of me I can’t figure out how intelligent people (scholars) come up with some of the concepts that they do,” it would probably be wise to number one, give some substantive reasons for your statement and number two, not group “scholars” all together. These changes would make your rhetoric more palatable.
Responding to Daniel’s post 9/17/2007 1:32 PM
Hi Daniel, it's Mika… as you stated, “HYPOCRISY is a big issue with Paul” which I agree with, although I'm not sure about the following statement, “there is a great need to talk the talk and walk the talk at the same time.”
I received Paul's harsh words on top see in the sense that there is nothing we can do to gain the right to judge, even if we do walk the walk or talk the talk. I kind of saw the “hypocrisy” term against those that act like God (in judgment) and are not God. These are hypocrites.
Just thinking on what you wrote.
Responding to Chuen’s post 9/20/2007 1:11 PM
Hi Chuen, when I read “The author points out the reason of the disasters why we have. Fall of Adam and Eve is the initial or original reason.” as I read your statement, I reflect upon what was said in class about the “original sin" in reference to your use of the “original reason.”
Hanna stated that maybe the “original sin” could be the sin could be considered as that sin was committed in heaven, next to the throne of God Himself. I think that the sin problem here (on earth) is not the same as a sin problem that was done in heaven. To solve the heaven-sin problem is really the solution to the original sin problem. This is when sin will not rise again.
Just thinking on what you wrote.
Commenting on Tim’s post 9/21/2007 10:50 AM
“…the balance is between being given victory over the enslavement of Satan through Christ’s victory and still being a sinner who sins in this world.”
It's quite paradox isn’t it. Maybe this questions the linear-ness of Justification, Sanctification, and Glorification. I suspect most of us would agree that we are given victory (justification) and the Lord is still working on us as we struggle in this life (sanctification). I think as we dive more into the multi-tenses of J, S and G that Hanna raises in class, may help the tension you referenced as well as help us with a larger model.
Just thinking on what you wrote.
Dale Baker
Tim Peters
I like what you said about the fact that many times we stress the law and forget about righteousness. I believe that righteousness and the law should be taught together and that one should not be stressed over the other.
Tim said ..."I realize that we constantly struggle with sin. I am trying to see where the balance is between being given victory over the enslavement of Satan through Christ’s victory and still being a sinner who sins in this world. Please help me with this tension that exists in our every day real life."
Indeed Tim has made this issue very practical. If our theology doesn't have practical implication then we are doomed. We all want to know how we can gain victory over sin even if we got an "F" in the Salvation Doctrine course. :)
I don't see Jesus victory on the cross as releasing me from the personal vicotry over sin. Even he said that we all must take up the cross and follow Him. I see His victory as one that I could NEVER hope to win because I wasn't qualified to even attempt paying the price for my sins.
Yet I see Christ victory as assurance that I could make it because a WAY of ESCAPE has been made for me. Even if I lived a perfect life and never broke one commandment I would still need Jesus because a sinner cannot atone for a sinner.
But the struggle that Paul describes in Romans 7:14ff will always be felt in our "flesh" because we still are exposed to the temptations of the enemy. But we are given the assurance that "God will with the temptation provide a way of escape".
My battle involves the will. Will I surrender my will to Christ or not? I don't see my battle as being with sin directly but with SURRENDERING my will to Jesus so that He will "do His good pleasure" in my life.
I support the comments of my colleague,Ray Edwards, "This justification is not something that took place universally at the cross but is effected in the life of the sinner as he accepts the salvation provided at the cross by expressed and demonstrated faith in Jesus Christ. Any attempt by God to justify even the sinner who didn’t ask for it would give Satan an argument against God’s justice. “Available” and “accepted” are two very different views of justification.
I concur with his line of reasoning and may dare to add that the enemy would be able to label God as 'unfair.'Thank Heavens He is not!!!!
In Response to Thomas Masimba on Ellen White:
You said, “The[re] was a teaching that , full salvation was instant sanctification. To relate that to my clas[s] work based on scriptural evidences, sanctification and justification both are in three phases. past, persent, and future. Upon the biblical text evidences, given my view is that the teaching was not only untheological but also satanic”.
I agreed with your view that our theological views need to be holistic. This is very important and helps us to avoid theological mistakes and it also helps us filter out our own biases. I however do not feel that “full salvation as instant sanctification” is “not only untheological but also satanic”. As believers grow and come into a fuller theological understanding we find that some of our beliefs were wrong or misguided, I do not think that they must be satanic or demonic if they were wrong. Not only that but we have had many beliefs that were wrong throughout our church history that were theological. Something that is theological is simply the studying God, it does not denote the rightness or wrongness of belief. I think we have to be careful not to demonize those who do not believe exactly as we do.
This is in response to what Garfield said...
Chapter 2- Ellen White On Salvation- Conversion, Sanctification and Early Ministry.
BRI Document- How Perfect Is Perfect-Or is Christian Perfection Possible?
I think you did a fabulous job in summerizing what Whidden had to say about EGW struggles with Salvation. I do have one thing to say that I am not sure that I agree on. I don't think that God makes up for our deficiencies. If that were true then we would be able to say that we did some of the work for our salvation. I believe that we are unable to do a single thing right. God has to do the complete work of salvation in us. Our job is complete and total surrender to Him. We are born with a sinful human nature so that every instinct that we have is wrong. Everything that we do is at emnity with God. We are unable to change this human nature in the very least. When God takes over our lives we give up any control that we have. He changes us. He controls us, and through Him we become different people. We can't do this work because who we are is the opposite of what God is. I hope I made this clear. These are huge topics and I am not always the best person to explain them. Thanks so much for your submission.
Jamie
Comments on 1 Timothy 4:10
Ángel Manuel Rodríguez
It is good for us to have a Savior Jesus Christ, Angel is very detail to explain the text of 1 Tim 4:10. I agree that we can be saved for we accept Him as our Savior and through His forgiveness. He is willing to all human being’s Savior, but not everything willing to accept Him.
Angel mentioned :
The key term in the text is the word "specially" (Greek málista). A proper understanding of it will solve the problems. The word can be translated "specially, mostly, above all" (e.g ., Acts 20:38; Phil 4:22). Recent studies made on the usage of this term in Greek papyrus letters have shown that this particle was also used to define in a more precise way what preceded it and could be rendered into English as "that is, in other words" or by similar expressions. This usage is found in several passages in the NT ( e.g., 2 Tim 4:13; Titus 1:10). If we use that translation in 1 Tim 4:10 the interpretational problems disappear: "Because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, that is, of those who believe." The phrase "all men" would then mean "all sorts of people," possibly Jews and Gentiles, who accept Christ. There is no need to introduce in the text the idea of universalism or of a legal universal salvation which has no immediate effect on the final destiny of the individual.
“That is, of those who believe” are we the one of the men to believe ? It is very important to believe Jesus as our Savior and follow His steps.
Romans Ch 2
For the first part of Ch2 it’s talk about the judgment. From the verses 6-11, talk about what we should do and what we should not do. Since “God “will give to each person according to what he has done.” We have to take the result for our life. But Paul mentioned that “To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. If we always doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, then we will not have chance to put ourselves into the temptation. We are sinner, we have the tendency toward to commit sin. But if we always do God’s work, think His mercy and words, our tendencies will toward Jesus. Then we will have more power to resist the temptations. I think it is really what we should do.
Ellen White on Salvation
Ch1-2
Ch1.
The author mentioned background of the doctrine of salvation of Adventist. The controversial issues are from justification by faith and perfection. Finally the author made a summary these issues. This balance between justification and perfection can be likened to a seesaw. Sometimes one side is up and the other down, but a good teeter-totter experience will always feature two evenly matched participants complementing and balancing each other. For Ellen White, the balancing act began early in her Christian experience.
It showed me a history background about the doctrine of salvation of Adventist. It will make me have more interesting to study it.
Ch2
Conversion, “Sanctification,” and Early Ministry
From the history to understand the salvation concept of Ellen White, it will make us more easy to understand about her understanding of the issue.
One of the important points of Ellen White’s early experience and ministry of salvartion is her own conversion “sanctification” crises and experience with Holiness fanaticism cannot be stressed enough for their critically formative contribution to her later doctrinal development.
The other point is Ellen White’s confrontations with the hypocritical Holiness fanatics would have a marked impact on the later modification of her understanding of sanctification and perfection.
In response to jjwalper on Romans chapter 2 and judging others for the same things that we do. I like how he brought out this principle and not judging others. I've noticed in myself the very annoying tendency that as soon as I start doing something 'right' like exercising every day or keeping the Sabbath a certain way, that automatically my brain starts assuming that everyone else should come to the same standards right NOW that have taken me 28 yrs. I catch myself doing this and it's like 'hey dummy, worry about your own issues and let those people decide for themselves!' It reminds of EGW in S2C who repeatedly states that 'another's sins won't save you.' Worry about watering your own lawn and let the HS do the convicting!
1Pet. 2:12 Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us.
Matt. 5:16 In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.
I am intrigued by the way you present
The ruler who is Christ implying an ontological study
The rule which is the Scripture with epistemology
The ruled which is the Church which requires an axiological question: So what?
The realm which is the planet where the message needs to be relevant.
I have read your book and basically it is based on supreme revelation, special revelation, and general revelation. In other words, it is all about Jesus, Scripture, and Nature. Even though I have some difficulty in reading “understanding the Scripture” by Dr. Reid, yet I am not going to address that issue now.
One of the questions we have discussed in the class so far is “Does sin reveal God?”
During the next class we have said that Sin shows us our need for God, reveals the glory, reveals God’s love; sin reveals who God is but, sin itself does not direct reveal God. The Possibility of sin reveals Him but the actuality of sin does not.
I have been thinking about that concept and when I look at it in a holistic way it bothers me. Why? God is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent. Did not He see that by creating Satan he will have fought with Michael, lost the battle in heaven for Satan to be dropped on the planet earth and then seduced human family by introducing sin on earth? Did he create Lucifer knowing that He will save the people anyway? What all those who are going to die because of Satan choice? Is that love in the first place? Where did love start? What I say to someone whose health is being deteriorated by cancer? Are we paying for what our ancestors did? And God is love. I think God loves me, but I am not certain that He love everyone else. It seems to me sin reveals God’s love and His wrath. The God who loves can hate, too. The God who delivers can condemn, too. Where did love start being “love”= God?
I am not so much concerned about what took place in the garden o f Eden. My concern is where is God’s omnipotence in Creating Lucifer? In order for Love to be it is understood that there have to be possibility of choice. It would have been dictator of God if he had destroyed the first disobedient ones including Lucifer. Where was His foreknowledge of the possibility of sin?
As being who will cease to be, If I know for fact impregnating my wife she will give birth to a thief I will never impregnate her. I want a better society than that. I would like to contribute for a better community and not for worst. If I go ahead and beget a daughter knowing she may become a thief or she may not. Any how I will talk to her if she listens, good for her; If she does, too bad. I don’t understand that philosophy of love.
I almost think that human being is innocent when it comes to good and evil. Two great forces are started a fight in some distant territory we end being victims of those guys fight. We did not know anything about in the first place, did we?
We are found in great dilemma. Satan is pulling us back. Jesus is calling out to us. Satan is going to go to hell with his followers. God offers eternal life through Jesus Christ, His Son. I only have two choices. It is either or. It is not neither nor. If the latter had been the case I would have refused to get involved into those entities I didn’t know anything about. It appears obvious to me that one force is more powerful. Therefore I want to play safe. I belong to Jesus. I accept Him as my shepherd, lawyer, Redeemer, Lord, and Savior. I wonder what God was thinking. I mean , there is so much suffering in this world. Couldn’t all of that be prevented?
May we all find favor in God’s sight!
Authored by Montes Estinphil
I am intrigued by the way you present
The ruler who is Christ implying an ontological study
The rule which is the Scripture with epistemology
The ruled which is the Church which requires an axiological question: So what?
The realm which is the planet where the message needs to be relevant.
I have read your book and basically it is based on supreme revelation, special revelation, and general revelation. In other words, it is all about Jesus, Scripture, and Nature. Even though I have some difficulty in reading “understanding the Scripture” by Dr. Reid, yet I am not going to address that issue now.
One of the questions we have discussed in the class so far is “Does sin reveal God?”
During the next class we have said that Sin shows us our need for God, reveals the glory, reveals God’s love; sin reveals who God is but, sin itself does not direct reveal God. The Possibility of sin reveals Him but the actuality of sin does not.
I have been thinking about that concept and when I look at it in a holistic way it bothers me. Why? God is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent. Did not He see that by creating Satan he will have fought with Michael, lost the battle in heaven for Satan to be dropped on the planet earth and then seduced human family by introducing sin on earth? Did he create Lucifer knowing that He will save the people anyway? What all those who are going to die because of Satan choice? Is that love in the first place? Where did love start? What I say to someone whose health is being deteriorated by cancer? Are we paying for what our ancestors did? And God is love. I think God loves me, but I am not certain that He love everyone else. It seems to me sin reveals God’s love and His wrath. The God who loves can hate, too. The God who delivers can condemn, too. Where did love start being “love”= God?
I am not so much concerned about what took place in the garden o f Eden. My concern is where is God’s omnipotence in Creating Lucifer? In order for Love to be it is understood that there have to be possibility of choice. It would have been dictator of God if he had destroyed the first disobedient ones including Lucifer. Where was His foreknowledge of the possibility of sin?
As being who will cease to be, If I know for fact impregnating my wife she will give birth to a thief I will never impregnate her. I want a better society than that. I would like to contribute for a better community and not for worst. If I go ahead and beget a daughter knowing she may become a thief or she may not. Any how I will talk to her if she listens, good for her; If she does, too bad. I don’t understand that philosophy of love.
I almost think that human being is innocent when it comes to good and evil. Two great forces are started a fight in some distant territory we end being victims of those guys fight. We did not know anything about in the first place, did we?
We are found in great dilemma. Satan is pulling us back. Jesus is calling out to us. Satan is going to go to hell with his followers. God offers eternal life through Jesus Christ, His Son. I only have two choices. It is either or. It is not neither nor. If the latter had been the case I would have refused to get involved into those entities I didn’t know anything about. It appears obvious to me that one force is more powerful. Therefore I want to play safe. I belong to Jesus. I accept Him as my shepherd, lawyer, Redeemer, Lord, and Savior. I wonder what God was thinking. I mean , there is so much suffering in this world. Couldn’t all of that be prevented?
May we all find favor in God’s sight!
Authored by Montes Estinphil
Hello Montes.
All the questions that you raise are valid. The final answers to the questions are harder to discover. Sin is rebellion against God and so does not directly reveal God. At the same time, since sin is rebellion against God, it indirectly reveals what God is not. God is not a sinner.
Even if sin had not arisen, the possibility of sin would have indirectly revealed God as one who allows for that possibility. God is free and he created free beings in his image. Sin did not have to arise in order for God to be revealed as he is. At the same time, God chooses to continue to reveal himself to sinners in the midst of their rebellion.
Why should we bring children into the world if we believe the Scripture teaching that all are born in sin? I think the answer is that Christians believe the Scripture teaching that children who have inherited sin from Adam and their ancestors, may chose a different inheritance from Christ, the Second Adam who did not sin. Those who have been born in sin may be reborn in righteousness.
There is a tension between a God of love who allows the first sinner to live and the apparent lack of love in allowing that first sinner to cause so much horror on those who come afterward. Part of the answer may be that the horror that comes afterward is not completely the responsibility of the first sinner but is shared by others who continue in sin and refuse the way of salvation.
At the same time, the question remains: why doesn’t God do more to remove the consequences of sin when it affects those who have not themselves earned those consequences? Part of the answer may be that God does reduce the consequences of sin. If he did not, the sinner would die immediately and would not produce any descendants who could then suffer as a result.
What about the rest of the answer? There is more that I could say given more time. However, even my best answers would not be the final answer. God himself will give the final answers in the final judgment when he will be shown to be just in justifying sinners and in all his actions. Until then, we walk by faith, not by sight.
Martin Hanna.
In response to Dr. Hanna's response to Montes about God being revealed by sin...
As usual Dr. Hanna stretched my mind with his comments. For example, sinners already are not suffering full consequences of sin or else they would die. That has kind of been a challenge to answer for when working with bright young people with some very hard questions. Also, about bringing kids into the world who inherit sin, but CAN CHOOSE Christ’s inheritance as well.
One thing I will disagree with that Dr. Hanna about is that ‘sin does not reveal God’s character.’ I agree that it reveals what God is not, but like a difficulty or challenge that a human goes through REVEALS to a deeper level their character, does not sin and the pain and hatred caused by rebelling against God reveal his character in more certain terms than was revealed in heaven during the original rebellion? I think it is hard or even offensive to think of anything good coming from sin, but just because we do not like the idea, that does not make it un-true. Do you not think that those who live in eternity after the great controversy is ended will have a huge confirmation that God is indeed fair and just, even if the suggestion would (hypothetically) arise that He is not? Does not the fact that sin arose to begin with show that in the minds of the 1/3 of the angels there was enough room to doubt His character (and perhaps confuse even the loyal 2/3)? In contrast, after this whole sin episode, there will still be free choice, but that confusion or ‘room to doubt’ has been removed, God’s character has been so confirmed and proven that sin will never arise again.
Rm 5:20 …But where sin increased, grace increased all the more…
Rm 28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him,[a] who[b] have been called according to his purpose.
To me this seems to say that good can come from bad, even a clearer and stronger confirmation that God indeed is love.
respond to Jamie peterson:
Salvation was for human race not only for Jews, God give the Jews the privilege to spread out the message of salvation to the entire world but they kept it for themselves. In God mind was not different everyone need salvation before His eye Jews and gentile, that is why, when Jesus came He meet every kind of people He did not reject anybody. An example of this is Cornelius he was gentile but God send an angels to his house to tell him that his prayer were heard in heaven, it is truth that God choose Israel and give them a mission that they misunderstood, but salvation was made for all.
Marcus,
I appreciate your discussion of your soul searching vocational and spiritual inventory. When we open our hearts to God in childlike trust to turn away from evil, His response and invitation is Come now, and let us reason together (not apart from him-but together), saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. A promise with added blessing vs. 19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land.
Romans 1:1 too speaks about the “Call”… called to be an apostle to what? To be separated, ordained and dedicated to the work of God. I like the clear explanation of what the Lord requires of us. In Micah 6:8, He has showed, thee, O man/woman what is good; and what doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God.
Reflections on this same subject in rhyme abut the call.
Few are chosen-Many answered the call,
No matter what category in which they might fall;
There is a lot of gospel to be told,
As the apocalyptic view of Bible Prophecy continues to unfold.
Many blend a little error with the truth,
Some are deceived yet fail to search for proof;
Still others prefer prestige, position and fame,
Rather than walk in the light and lift up God’s great name.
Some preachers say the commandments of God are not binding,
But no truer love commandment keepers are finding;
Others say the commandments were nailed to the cross,
But Jesus’ death fulfilled the law so that none would be lost.
On the state of the dead
Many preachers have said,
That loved one is in heaven with Jesus looking down from the sky;
The dead know not anything; their love, hatred, envy now perish when they die.
Jesus spoke of the dead as those who sleep in the ground,
And the dead in Christ shall rise first, when the trump of God shall sound;
To meet the Lord in the air,
With we who are alive and remain; 1 Thess.4:16 tells of this glorious affair.
These words are spoken in love for you and me – not meant to criticize,
To encourage The Preacher to dispel Satan’s awful lies.
I wouldn’t want to be responsible for leading other souls to a devil’s Hell;
Woe be unto the Pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep is a warning that we allmust tell !
There was a time when women were forbidden in the church to speak,
But now God is using whoever He can – for a consecrated vessel He does seek;
His method hasn’t changed; He uses different ones in His name to plant the seed;
The Holy Spirit then waters the thirsty soil providing GRACE and POWER to meet the sinner’s need.
Some preachers call themselves reverend too,
Holy and Reverend is His name; that title does not apply to you,
Confess your faults to one another; To God confess your sin,
Not to someone in a booth with no power to pardon fallen men.
Too many preacher’s sermons are filled with words of bitterness and hate,
They condemn others but if they don’t change, this will be their own fate;
The necessary credential for preaching is the Holy Spirit dwelling within,
AND TO MISREPRESENT God with evil is a weightier and much greater sin.
If preachers spend more time with Jesus down on their knees,
Crying out to God for wisdom so that God they may please;
And spend less time writing sermons that only compromise,
Leading others to follow the same pattern as the Father of all wicked lies.
If more words were preached out of God’s Holy Book,
And less of man’s interpretation for others in awe to speak and look;
SO SHALL MY WORD BE THAT GOETH OUT OF MY MOUTH; IT SHALL NOT RETURN UNTO ME VOID;
BUT SHALL ACCOMPLISH THAT WHICH I PLEASE: Saith a mighty and awesome GOD.
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached into all the world,
For a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come,
For all inhabitants everywhere – every man woman boy and girl;
Then and only then will THE PREACHER’S WORK on earth be done.
Matt.22:14; Ecl.9:5,6; 1Thess.4:16; 1Cor.15:20; Jer.23:1; Luke 8:52;Is.53:7,10,12; Rom.7:7,12; Rom.9:31-33; 11Tim. 4:2; 1Tim.2:7,11,12;Ps.111:9; James 5:16; Is.55:11; Matt.24:14; Gal.3:27,28
Geraldine C. O’Neal © 1999
Blessings, Love & Peace, Marcus in your continued journey with the Lord
Debbedo,
I believe that a person's perfection is really Jesus' perfection. They are perfect by letting Jesus blood wash and cleanse them. That person will also be letting Jesus live through them. There is a connection. I appreciated the questions that you raised because they remind us to take our eyes off of ourselves when we talk about being perfect. I think that you made a good point that it is possible to be perfect to God and be imperfect at the same time. I hope that we each seek perfection in Jesus without getting caught up with ourselves.
Tim Peters
Marcus Malcolm Vassell
Dr. Martin Hanna
Doctrine of Salvation
September 28, 2007
Reflections
First let me begin with the pretty lengthy statement on “original sin” offered by Gerhard Pfandi. While I appreciate his comparative treatment of the historical and theological dimensions of original sin, I am a bit perplexed by his conclusions drawn on the destiny of newborn babies who die shortly after birth. I can see he arrives at his conclusion (logically) but I believe that his treatment is too narrow, too limited in that it does not allow for God’s foreknowledge and grace to save the soul of a newborn. I would say more on this matter but space and time prevent s me.
Now when it comes down to Ellen White’s experience with sin and perfection, I would say that it is an inspirational one because it is good to know that she was humble enough and conscious enough to know her limitations and liabilities as a human being. I’m encouraged by her spirit. And to think that people problems with her. She demonstrated a deep understanding of what sanctification entailed and we would do well to learn more from her.
Saving the best for last, let me get on to Paul. Romans chapter 4 is a rather profound one. Paul sheds light on the proper interpretation of the Old Testament understanding of Justification by faith. He uses the experiences of Abraham and David. Now Abraham’s example is a little easier to digest though he was flawed but when it comes down to David it is clear that God’s grace knows no bound and His mercy and willingness to justify sinners is made clear. And I am blessed to know that.
Comments On: Desmond C. Haye’s post titled “My views on the ‘Bigger Model of Salvation”
By: Eric Ollila
Desmond mentions some good points that I would like to highlight. Desmond stated in his post regarding the “Bigger Model of Salvation” that “I believe there are merits to us developing and utilizing such a model. Hopefully, it will help to ease the tension that now exists and bring us to deeper levels of understanding of the salvation plan; but the question arises as to where and when should we begin? What are the advantages, and possible disadvantages that that we might encounter in this bigger model?”
While I want to let Professor Hanna answer for himself, I think it would be safe to say that he probably has an answer to the question about “when should we begin?” I think it would be safe to say that he has already begun.
Desmond brings out another very important question that I myself have had some concern about. Namely, “and should we achieve a model that is so broad that it encompasses all the views in Christendom what would be our perspective as Seventh-day Adventists? And what would we call others from, or would that be necessary at all seeing that our bigger model includes all others? Furthermore, when we arrive at this bigger model will it lead to complacency among us?”
While I have appreciated many things the “Bigger Model” addresses in a Biblically faithful manner, I have concern about the idea of trying to come up with a model that could bring harmony between the BRI and the 1888 committee. The reality is that there are irreconcilable differences between “some views” on the BRI and “some views” on the 1888 committee. The reality is that there are some unconverted ideas that are expressed from both groups. Until these ideas are submitted to Jesus Christ there can be no reconciling no matter how big our model is.
With that said, this raises an issue about exactly how far do we take the “bigger model?” A bigger model in my opinion would be a model that clearly identifies the truth. That means the whole broad range of truth. In other words it would have to take into consideration the seeming paradoxical statements of Scripture. This, “The Bigger Model’ does a good job of up to a point. Where I feel that this model, as I have started to understand it, breaks down lies within its underlying premise that says “everybody is right.”
Let’s face it…while there are many things that both sides say are good, there are other items that they have flat missed the mark on. There are areas where both have failed to take into consideration the whole of Scripture. These areas, the bigger model should not agree with. It should stand clear and distinct from these false interpretations of Scripture.
Point well taken Eric. I propose a biblical model that is in harmony with the way the Lord has led us as Seventh-day Adventists. I argue that we need a bigger model in order to explain what we already believe as Adventists. I do not mean a model that agrees with everything that every other model proposes. At the same time a bigger model will agree with what is biblically correct in other models.
Martin Hanna.
Dale Baker
“BRI: Comments on 1 Tim 4:10”
Whidden: “Salvation, The Great Controversy Theme, Closing Events and the Law”
Ever since the fall of Satan in heaven, he is seeking to show that God is not a just God. He is bent on making Christ seem arbitrary, unfair, and even unreasonable. Satan even goes as far to say that God is so just that humans cannot be forgiven or experience mercy by such a just God. But we see in scripture that Gods love was expressed in His justice no less that in His mercy. Therefore, I believe that in Gods justice there is mercy and in His mercy there is justice. Additionally, mercy is extended only on the basis of holy justice.
Consequently, Satan is seeking even today to pervert both law and grace by denying one or both as essential to the understanding of Gods character of love.
We see further that salvation was provided by Christ and His death on the cross. But this is accessible when we give our lives to Christ. This does not mean that all is saved, but that we take hold of this salvation when we accept Christ as our savior and continually allow Christ life to be lived out in us. Jesus is the savior of all, which means then that Jesus is the only and exclusive way of Salvation for the human race. Thus no one needs to perish because salvation is available to all.
Sterling made some good points here ...
"It is interesting to note that although [He](sic) paid the price for us He also has to make an effort to rescue us. Human is in such bondage by Satan that he has to be persuaded to accepted the salvation that is offered by Jesus. It seems to me that it takes the sacrifice of Jesus plus the continuous prompting and guiding of the Holy Spirit to save man."
This is an important element indeed because our wills are in bondage to Satan since Adam sold out to the devil. The entire human family is now Satan's rightful possession but Jesus has paid the price in order to rescue us from sin.
If it wasn't for the promptings of God's Holy spirit then we would just do what comes naturally and that is to rebel again God. We cannot turn towards the good but we can turn toward God!
As Ellen White reminds us we can give out wills to Jesus. we have much power in the exercise of the will--in other words we have a CHOICE.
Whether the exercise of that will is considered meritorious towards our salvation will depends on whose model we are looking at. This is the "hair-splitting" level that Dr. Hanna has being continually intimating in class.
The question of God's sovereignty versus his justice and our choice is a question that will always entail discussion that we may never be able to resolve on this side of eternity. So why wrestle with these questions anyway?
Reminds me of the story of a son who complained to his father than reading the bible wasn't beneficial because seemed to stick. It was like "trying to catch water using a basket". His father replied, "At least the basket is cleaner afterwards!"
Struggling with these questions should make us appreciate God's salvation more--even though we may never come up with a perfect answers. Perfect answers would eliminate faith and the "dark glass" which we now look through.
Garfield Browne comments On: Desmond C. Haye’s post titled “My views on the ‘Bigger Model of Salvation”
It is interesting that my colleague Pastor Haye holds the view that the Bigger model concept will inevitably create greater options for discussion. I agree with this notion. Moreover, the bigger model concept will definitely create more discossion. As I ponder the greater model concept, I am also wondering how much we are willing to accommodate in the discussion- simply because as a people we are generally not open to the unconventional and different; for us as Seventh-Day Adventist different is perceived as wrong. I clearly understand Dr Hanna's proposition of a larger model which is also Biblical, however on the issue of Salvation there are so many possibilities beyond the past, present and future of justification, Sanctification and glorification that I wonder if a larger model is not also a great avenue for misunderstanding. I am just wondering.
Heather I would like to comment on your submission for week three. You did a very good job of summarizing what was stated in the reading. I have had the same question that you have had about non-Christians being saved. I know that Ellen White says that there will be people in heaven who have never heard the name of God but what does that do for our missionary effort. If you believe like the Catholics do that you cannot be saved unless you are baptized then you will have a great push to save everyone. If you don’t have to know Christ to be saved why do we tell people? At the moment I have come to the conclusion that the reason to tell people about Jesus is that He came here to make friends with the world. He died to make those friends and it is my job to tell people about the friend that they can have if they will just meet Him. I have learned over the years that my ideas grow over time but this is where I am at the moment. Thanks for your comments.
Jamie
Hey Jamie, I’d like to respond to your latest blog entry. Your comment “I have noticed that the Devil deals in absolutes” kind of caught my attention. I’m not sure if I understand you correctly, but it seems the other way around to me. I believe God alone is absolute. One text that stood out in my mind as I read your entry was Titus 1:1,2… it reads, “Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness, in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began…” To me this text says a couple things, but the one that stands out is…GOD CANNOT LIE. Therefore GOD’S TRUTH in His Son Jesus is the absolute authority in this world today. Jesus said in John 14:6 “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.” In our “both”…“inclusive-language” world, this sort of “either/or”…“exclusive-language” is extremely offensive to many outside Christianity, and to even some within Christianity.
To me, the very nature of truth is “either/or”. I think it’s interesting that Truth isn’t merely someone’s narrative of history, but instead it is anchored in the reality of the God/man…Jesus. I think the devil is doing everything he can to divide us as a people. I believe there are often antagonistic efforts on his part, to divide us and keep us corporately disqualified from the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The early church was of one accord, daily praying, and studying the Bible together, eating together, having all things in common…and then the Holy Spirit poured out at Pentecost.
From what I understand about postmodernism, ours is an age where everyone does what is right in their own eyes…claiming that there is no such thing as “absolute truth”…This was the same issue in the book of Judges…the phrase that is repeated over and over is… “In those days there was no king in Israel; everyone did what was right in his own eyes.” (Judges 17:6; 18:1; 19:1; 21:25) I think the only way we’ll ever be united as a people is when Jesus is King of our hearts…and King of our church. “And I will sanctify My great name, which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst; and the nations shall know that I am the LORD," says the Lord GOD, "when I am hallowed in you before their eyes.” Ezekiel 36:23 Blessings!
Comment on Daniel Ocampo
On Romans 3 & BRI Document
“Christ Saved the Human Race”
After reading the same materials that Daniel read, I am convinced that our understand of the materials are very similar. However, Daniel’s understand have enlightened more than when I first understood. His insight has helped me to gain greater understanding on the documents and on the chapter in Ellen White on Salvation. I also appreciate the way that he related and bridged Romans, the BRI document, and the Decade Before 1888 together.
These materials were all interrelated with one another. Therefore, I feel as thought a lot was said there was still a lot of things missing. In the BRI document there seemed to be a use of word play on what Jack Sequeria said. Although, I believe that he (Jack) could have and should have explained what he said a little better. Some things that are said aren’t meant to be taken the way they are explained by another person. The person who said whatever was said is the same person who can explain better what he or she meant. So, it is a little unfair, I think to take what someone else said and run with it (make a big deal out of it). However, at the same time, I realize that I must be open and careful to take some things at face value. I am in no way defending Jack but I realize that his misuse of words have caused a lot of debate. I believe the most important thing is to know what we believe as individuals and continue to explore and gain deeper understanding of topics and issues that arise from these study committees. It, for me, is better to look at things the way the Dr. Hanna is teaching and admonishing us to do and that is to look at things wholistically.
Heather Barbian in Response to Jonathan Russell:
I enjoyed reading your post especially the last part. It is refreshing that God is actively and deliberately pursuing our souls. It is like a great cosmic love story. You also wrote about why Jesus had to die. You said, “Did God have to pay off the devil (with a ransom) to win back humanity? Of course this idea seems completely ridiculous.” I agree, but it seems even more ridiculous that God died on the cross to pay himself off. Couldn’t God simply forgive because he is God and can do anything anyway he wants? The whole thing makes little sense.
This is in response to Dale Baker’s assignment posted on 9/22/07.
In the first paragraph it is stated: “clearly Scripture reveals that there is no perfect person no not one (Rom 3:10),” then later on in paragraph three we read: “Through Christ we can attain perfection as we trust Him and allow Him to live out His life within us.” Although I believe I understand what is being explained in Dale’s post, to play the part of the devil’s advocate, I have to ask why these two statements seem to contradict each other. If through Christ we can attain perfection as we trust Him and allow Him to live out His life within us, then doesn’t that mean that those who are already doing that have already attained some sort of perfection!?
I am responding to Tim's post:
Thank you Tim for bringing the whole matter into a nutshell. It was good reading from your point of view, it seems that you are such a prolific writer with a great hold of your comprehension.
I resonate with your concerns how our church have grown both radicals and fanatics against and for Ellen White. Again the issue is on the misuse of documents and for personal benefits and or in support for personal ideas and theories though they may never be the stand of the person being used (EGW).
At any rate, this is where Grace plays the role that up to now, is a FREE gift from God.
Dan
This in response to Rey Edwards who wrote: "In fact, the great paradox is that the closer we come to Christ and the more like Him we become the more we would realize how unlike Him we really are. Hence, the more “saved” we are, the more “lost” we’ll feel."
I like your ideas and reflections until I have come to your last paragraph stated above, with special emphasis on the last sentence. Would you mind expounding more and shed more light on this? It's quite tricky for me. Would it be clearer to say that the closer we get to know Jesus and see the difference he makes in our lives by his grace through faith, the more we would appreciate his gift of salvation? I said that because that's how I experience my unending desire to share the good news of salvation because it's just so good not to share. It's like "fire in my bones" (Jeremiah), so hard to keep, it comes out naturally, we just can't help but share it.
But please share more.
Thanks,
Dan
As I reflect on chapter 5 of the book Ellen G White on salvation, it is my view that possibly, she had never been confronted with great theological challenges as when she wrote on these cardinal topics in this chapter .Indeed they were solemnly cosmic .For they involved the two forces in one way or the other controlling the world. The topics are about the salvation of a lost man, which implies to me it was God’s agenda, then the great controversy which has to do with the war between God and his arch enemy Satan in view of the lost cosmos. And much more about the law on which Satan laid his strong accusation against God, who is mostly known of his strictness on obedience to his law, and finally the closing events of the cosmos. In my opinion, this is the scenario where Ellen G White has to prove her theology to be Biblical sound. And then disapprove Satan’s claims that, God is not arbitrary and unfair to require obedience to his law nor mercy is not swallow up in justice .In relation to our study in class, there is no being that could absolutely understand the science of salvation As its nature is past, present and future .For none of the creatures has been so, except God .In my view, Satan’s allegation were right for he could not understand as creature as how mercy, the law and grace could harmoniously work in unison and God maintain his justice in relation to his character of love and forgiving the sinful man. .It is in this narration that Ellen white stood up to prove that, the imagination of Satan is not only wrong and malicious but also that salvation is fully Gods agenda. For God had sought to answer this charges by the incarnation of Jesus in whom is the fulfillment of the law and salvation by grace .And in my conclusion, Christ centered gospel is the ultimate solution to mans destiny .Hence I concur with Ellen G Whites theology on salvation.
comment on Geraldine O'neal assignment.
AFTER READING YOU COMMENT I HAVE
JUST A QUESTION FOR YOU.
WHAT IS MOST IMPORTANT THE LETTER OF THE LAW OR THE SPIRIT OF THE LAW?
Comment on Eric Ollila
Whereas I appreciate the Eric’s concern on the topic of Universal and Legal Justification, I understand that he seems to want to dictate to the committee what they should have said, answered, and studied. The truth is that regardless what a committee or an individual studies there will always be some weaknesses and some strengths. My friend, Eric seemed to have completely overlooked this matter. I also appreciate the concern that he had with the research institute not intermingling justification with the prophecy and promise of Genesis 3:15. However, my understanding of the article was not to explore prophecy or do research on the “what did or didn’t happens and why did it or didn’t it happens” on sin of Adam and Eve. The purpose of this article, I believe, was to explore more deeply into the subject of what is actually meant by universal and/or legal justification. It’s purpose, again I believe, what to try to convince the readers to come to a logical conclusion about the subject. The article, I believe, was well written and gave readers the insight that was needed to come to their own conclusion about the matter. Although it seemed that it was written to steer peoples mind’s away from legal and/or universal justification into its writer’s frame of thinking. The truth about the matter is that an author of an article is not going to answer all of the questions that its reader has, especially those that does not deal with the purported topic.
However, to answer one question, yes, Adam and Eve began the process of dying when Adam disobeyed and ate from the forbidden tree. Adam and Eve both began to die physically at Adam’s disobedience. At the same time, they died spiritually at Adam’s disobedience. In my estimation, it wasn’t the purpose of the article to answer these questions.
This brief comment is in reference to a part of Daniel’s reflection:
In reference to judging others. Because of the malignity of sin
we don’t even need to behold our own faults too long. We need to consider, confess, repent, forsake …all of those being necessary and possible by God’s grace.
After we look at ourselves, then we should turn our gaze immediately upon the one who is able to help the sin problem…Jesus. Amen
"Turn your eyes upon Jesus, look full in His wonderful face …….And the things of earth will grow strangely dim in the light of his glory and grace."
This is about Wayne's post. I appreciated the balance that he showed about Ellen White that he pointed out her emphasis on being saved by faith in the merits of Christ. He also mentioned
"It will do every Bible scholar and every believer to
continue to do extensive studies on justification, sanctification, and salvation before anyone submit a
concrete belief that his or her ideas are correct and state them as facts."
I like this because it is a turnoff to me and others when people say that this is the way it is, end of discussion! I like people that are openminded enough to say that this is what I have found so far. If you find something from the Bible that explains it better, please show me because I am searching too.
My comment is in regard to Tim:
Tim, I fully agree and love the encouraging promises in Romans 5:6,7. And agree, to reconcile those verses with others in the Bible we need a “bigger model.”
I also agree that it seems as if the BRI article on “In Adam/In Christ” may simply be arguing over semantics. I see this kind of scholarly work within Adventism as a call for Adventists to get outside of our little bubble of quarrels, and deal with some other theological issues that aren’t as small and nitpicky.
Hi Tim,,
”The BRI document “Comments on the ‘In Adam/In Christ’ Motifs’” seemed to be a big deal over semantics in parts of it.”
I made note in my personal document notes that the argument seemed to be too much on the side of semantics as well… however, I think that a lot of the verbal sparring in theology resides in semantics. And we put on the gloves of word when we step into the ring of theo. And so this is our world.
“I agree with the BRI that it is the result of Adam’s sin that passed down to the descendants of Adam.”
I not sure that your statement is what BRI was saying, here is a quote “Romans 5:12-21 does not teach that Adam's sin was imputed to us. On the contrary the passage makes Adam responsible for his own sin; his descendants receive the fatal result of his transgression.” Ángel Manuel Rodríguez Comments on the "In Adam/In Christ" Motifs
And so I agree with BRI’s position that Adam’s sin did not pass to us but the fatal result thereof.
Peace b2u… mika
Wayne wrote: "Many of the things that Paul said about justification and sanctification need to be taken at face value and needs no study or research committee to try to figure out what he meant. However, there are some aspects of the subject that needs to be explored for our coming to logical conclusion by looking at it holistically."
Wayne made some points in his post about fighting over semantics and wrangling with points that appear very clear from the Bible.
On the other hand, even Peter declares that Paul wrote about some things that are very hard to understand and there is "milk" and there is "bone". Salvation has a simplicity to it that even a child could understand (otherwise everyone will need a couple doctorates in order to understand salvation) but a certain mystery that no one could adequately explain. We are often looking at a BOTH rather that an EITHER/OR. This applies to law/grace, mercy/justice, God/man, humanity/deity of Jesus and several other paradoxes in the Bible.
The danger seems to be in taking extreme and unbalanced views on these subjects.
I found Mika's review quite interesting:
"To think that justification was credited to a person, in this case that would be Abraham, makes for great questions (or confusion – depending on how you want to look at it). I mean, if Abraham was credited righteousness, then Abraham would seem to have possession of it. Possession of “righteousness,” that is. And so if he had it, maybe he can share it to others or lose it like someone loses their wallet on a NY train ride."
Mika proposes a logical reasoning, assuming that everything one is credited with,is transferable. Can Abraham's credit of righteousness be transferred? Is it merely for his personal use or can he in turn credit others?
I think righteouness is distributed only by the Divine. Many who now have it would probably share it with the undeserved, or those who really do not need it.
I do not think that all that we are credited with is transferable- simply because some things are tangible and some intangible!
Marcus Malcolm Vassell
Dr. Martin Hanna
Doctrine of Salvation
October 6, 2007
Reflection
Ángel Manuel Rodríguez makes a very interesting case in the debate about the variation of interpretations of 1 Timothy 4:10. As with many of these articles I am surpised that there are those that hold to some strange views about the a specific text and build entire doctrines based on those views. Rodriguez points out that God’s provision of salvation for humanity is universal however its efficacy is limited due to the freedom of choice that is afforded to all human beings. People are free to choose to accept or reject his invitation of love.
Along the same vein is Ellen Whites understanding of salvation with the backdrop of the great controversy providing the context. I liked the way that she always crafted her writings with this cosmic reality in mind. This gives a certain distinctiveness to our message and our interpretation of scripture.
Paul in the fifth chapter of Romans states that the salvation that God provides for humanity is deeply profound in that we were rescued from sin not when we were begging for help but when we did not even know we needed help. Furthermore, this great salvation comes not to God’s friends but to His enemies which we were before we were changed into children of light.
Comment on Garfields post on Rm 5, Whidden ch 4...
I agree with Garfield about the blessing of learning how the SDA pioneers also struggled with many of the same issues as us, sometimes for years. For me, it really balances out the high ideals we are called to in Christ vs. our real life struggles and short comings to reach those high ideals.
One comment that really stood out for me was 'if we became sinners before we sinned, we may have become ‘saints’ before we
knew Christ.' I know all analogies are limited simply because they are only tools to help us understand God's very deep truth, BUT this was a neat way to think about it. In some way, we might be 'saints' even before we know Christ. Of course, this does not supercede human choice, acceptence of Salvation and surrendering our lives to God! Thank you Garfield for challenging me.
In Response to Jamie Peterson:
I enjoyed your insights on the 1888 message. I too felt the author was unfair to the study committee. One statement of yours really resonated with me, “This is one thing that scares me in the Adventist church. Too often we react so violently against one extreme that we fall into the opposite and just as wrong extreme”. It is so important for us not just as Adventists but Christians to know what we believe by what is true and not out of a reaction to others. It is not good enough to say we don’t believe that but know what we do believe. Balance is key.
Comment on Mika’s article:
I am particularly impressed with Mika’s presentation on the possession of “righteousness. Your perspectives demand some thought and I saw much sense in your line of reasoning. I agree that “we do not have any righteousness; we have only the mystery of faith.” It is this faith that will lead us into a deep and abiding relationship with Jesus. It Christ who is our Righteousness. It is him alone who can present us before his father worthy and righteous.
I agree with you Mika…there are so many ways to be confused about salvation. You mentioned that the 1888 group is nebulous in their use of the “in Adam… “in Christ” motif. From what I understand, the 1888 group get the “in Adam”… “in Christ” motif from 1 Corinthians 15:22’s “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” I’m not sure if I understand 1888 or BRI’s stances completely, but I understand this “in Adam…in Christ” model of salvation as follows. 1 Corinthians 15:22 along with Philippians 1 & 2 is often used to teach this model of salvation in Jesus Christ. I think 1888 explains it with the understanding that we are born with a sinful nature… inheriting it from our parents…all the way back to Adam. But through Christ’s sacrifice on the cross, a way was made for us to live “in Christ”…denying the sinful nature “in Adam” and living to the divine nature “in Christ”. 2 Peter 1:2-4 “Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.” May God bless us with clarity amongst all the confusion.
Azahel’s comment stimulates me to share a few words on the BRI-1888 Committee discussion which is causing him some concern.
As I said in class, the biblical model of salvation should not be limited to a legal objective justification that we have in Christ apart from our exercise of faith to receive a subjective justification. Further, there is a sense in which Jesus is the objective embodiment of our salvation apart from our subjective exercise of faith. Finally, through the exercise of faith in Christ we subjectively receive the salvation which he objectively embodies.
The goal of my teaching in class is to encourage us to do the careful Bible study which will show us that our model of salvation needs to be holistic. We have been saved; we are being saved; and we will be saved. We need a bigger rather than a smaller model of salvation if we are to be faithful to Scripture. This bigger biblical perspective will assist us in understanding the BRI-1888 Committee discussion.
Note well the following two paragraphs from the article: The Dynamics of Salvation.
http://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org/documents/Dynamics%20of%20Salvation.htm
“Jesus died for every person at every place and in every time. This was the event toward which the sacrifices of the Old Testament pointed. It reconciled the world to God (2 Cor. 5:19); it delivered humanity from the power of Satan; it opened the door to a life in union with God. As Christians we are therefore not ashamed of the cross; it is the guarantee of our forgiveness, the ground of our assurance, and the pledge of our eternal life in God. "But far be it from me to glory except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ" (Gal. 6:14; Testimonies to Ministers, pp. 161, 162).”
“While Christ by His death has redeemed the world and paid the penalty of every sin, not every person actually will experience salvation. Why is this? Because God does not coerce, not even for our best good. He has provided salvation as a gift, but He does not force that gift upon us. He has made reconciliation, but we must agree to be reconciled.”
Martin Hanna.
I just want to give a big welcome to our Evangelical Reformed brother in the midst of our class. Garfield writes…
It cannot be negated that man would have never responded to God if God did not take the initiative to seek after him. Additionally, it is also true that man in, of himself could not have reached out, and accepted the gift of salvation that God offers, because he became a slave to sin and did not have strength to seek after God…
Oh wait… here is something else he wrote
…Holy Spirit is working on our character and making us instruments of good works, this cannot merit us salvation
Maybe he’s an Adventist after all… I want to extend a hearty amen and welcome to Garfield - he's returning back to the remnant (he he he)
I think that most of us would agree with Garfield – and will gladly say so until we find out it fits in the decrees or description of other theologies or traditions. Maybe the heresy that Dr. Hanna is teaching really isn't heresy after all...
jjwalper said “I've eaten lunch with both Angel Rodriguez and Jack Sequiera on separate occasions.”
You can’t get much better than lunch and face time with your subjects can you – it’s as primary source as you can get.
When considering Rodriguez's Sequeira's model I think you may be onto something.
I believe that the Christological issue is the real source of this division.
I like your final statement
“I'd like to read or hear him speak of his model of salvation from another angle other than picking apart another man's model.”
Prior to this class… my exposure to the 1888 committee was seeing the sign off of M139. Now that I’m understanding more… it certainly would be nice to read Rodriguez comments (BRI for that matter) on salvation that are not so apologetic.
Hi Geraldine O'Neal, you wrote
“My question is why do we as a church tend to shy away from the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, a very necessary part of the Christian experience? It’s almost as if this relates only to “Pentecostal” faith not Adventist.”
I’m not sure that we shy away from the baptism of the Holy Spirit. I think, we may shy away from Pentecostalism, and it’s Holy Ghost Tongue-defined baptism of the Holy Spirit. But for the most part, I think we seek and preach about the Holy Spirit baptizing us (at least – this is what I’ve experienced.)
Peace2u
mika
This comment relates to Dale’s reflection on Sin, The Human Condition and Salvation. Your comments express my sentiments exactly, Dale. I might not have all of the Biblical knowledge about salvation and I’m glad that it is not a condition for being saved. This gospel has been made available to the learned as well as the unlearned.
When you think of people in some mission fields who have never heard of Jesus, living with many idolatrous practices but when they embrace the message that Jesus suffered and died for their sins, that he loves them and took the burden of their guilt upon the cross,shedding His precious blood so that they could receive pardon, they fall in love with Jesus and thank Him that they don’t have to be lost. Because of His sacrifice they envision a better place where they can live with Him throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity. This miracle is amazing grace and it is accomplished through a work of the Holy Spirit. God uses Angels and Human agents (missionaries) who work in cooperation with Him too.
It is in fact amazing that Jesus would give up royalty and come and live in poverty to teach us the Father’s character, (“love”) and would redeem us to Him by the sacrifice of his own life, and not just leave us to the enemy of our souls.
Jesus told His disciples before leaving He would not leave them comfortless, but that He would pray the father, who would send another comforter (Holy Spirit) in His name, that He may abide with them forever. The work of salvation is not a singular work. It is a work of the Father in giving His Son; It is a work of the Son in shedding His blood; It is a work of the Holy Spirit in convicting, converting, guiding; It is a work of the angels in protecting and ministering; It is a work of the believer in believing, receiving and cooperating. As we cooperate, a relationship is formed and develops. For Jer.9:23,24 says: Thus saith the Lord, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches; vs. 24 But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the Lord which exercise loving kindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the Lord. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. John 17:3
This is about Mika's comment about Peter walking on water. I appreciate the emphasis on Jesus as our only goodness and righteousness. We forget that too easily. The gravitational pull is a great illustration about sin and our struggle with it.
Tim
This is a comment on Tim Peters'
Week 6 Submission. I loved that you talked about God being the one who saves us every step of the way. It also reminded me of a song by Carrie Underwood called "Jesus take the Wheel." I think that it is only when we realize that we are such a mess that God has to interviene just to give us the option of a choice, that we will realize our true helplesness. In doing this we can see how God feels about the world and we will have His love for fallen people.
Jamie
This is in response to the comment of Walter's In response to 'Christ Saved the Human Race' by Angel Manuel Rodriguez. I understand some of your frusteration. I felt like the author was trying so hard to say that the 1888 study committee is wrong because they teach universal salvation (which according to our teacher they say that they don't)that he seemed to be working overtime to prove the opposite. The only thing is that I feel the two groups are dealing in semantics. I think of it this way. When Jesus died He gave the gift of salvation to all of us. We can choose to keep it or throw it in the trash but that doesn't mean that He only provided it for a few people who choose to keep it. He died for everyone not just those who accept Him by faith. Because of this there is a gift given to all. We are not all saved because some of don't want the gift that He gave us and that is our choice. I am glad you said something. I really appreciated your comment.
Jamie
In reponse to jjwalpher ... who wrote:
I think in order to find out the difference between these guys two different models of salvation, you must look at their Christological views. Their most obvious point of contention is their two different beliefs in the "nature of Christ." The whole question being...did Jesus take upon Himself man's fallen nature at His incarnation? Or did He take man's perfect nature before Adam sinned?
I can see that the treatment of these two different views were quite balanced. He was able to take the "positives" from these two 'models' to build his own. He showed what he agreed with in both models and in many cases their differences were only EMPHASIS.
This is what I see in reading Paul and James as well--they both emphasized different aspects of salvation and sometimes to make a point they made what seems to be extreme statements.
I see the same pattern in Ellen White's writings as well. When she speaks about the Sabbath School she would write that it's the most important aspect of the church. Speaking of the home, and this becomes the lifeblood of the church etc. It's all a matter of emphasis.
But on the issue of the nature of Christ, because we are dealing with a MYSTERY it's not so easy to get total agreement. The Bible doesn't give us explicit and dogmatic facts about His nature and maybe we shouldn't try to be dogmatic either.
The same with Ellen White who didn't give us a systematic theology on the "nature of Christ" and we try to understand what words such as "propensities" mean.
Are just looking at different sides of the the same elephant and describing out view of the giant animal (subject)?
Marcus M. Vassell
Dr. Martin Hanna
Doctrine of Salvation
October 13, 2007
Reflections
In Romans the sixth chapter Paul buildson an argument that he has been unfolding since chapter four on the distinctive change and characteristic tranformation that should take placein the believers life. He uses the language of union ("united with christ") to call the the believer to personal identification with the Risen Lord. He says that we are buried with Christ in baptism and as adirectresult we are united with Him in His resurrection, in His "riseness" as it were. It follows that to share in the latter one must first participate in the former. In other words, death before life.
This nuance of the gospel is all the more significant when I read about the Dynamics of Salvation from the Biblical Research Center. Though a very lengthy and profound discussion on how human beings are saved and thee are many gems to be found there, I have to admit that the one staement that resonated with me was that "our world became the arena in which Christ battles with Satan for our allegiance." Wow! Christ is fighting for my, Marcus's allegience, my loyalty. Not a new concept to me but certainly a timely one. It is easy at times to get overwhelmed in the barrage of theological arrows that you can completely lose sight of the simplest of truths that Jesus is battling with the enemy of my soul over my loyalty. and I at times give Jesus a hard time and the enemy, my enemy, a upper hand. This is a humbling reality.
And I guess when it all boils down to it that is the essence of the Great Contraversy that Ellen White theme that Ellen White set as the background to her own understanding and theology of salvation. In a way the idea is so profound that it cause me to chuckle. Just think, Christ risked all to provied salvation for meand has succeded in doing so. Fine... but then when he seeks to apply that salvation in my life I fight against Him and side uo with the one who is trying to rob me of priceless gift of salvation.
I have no more to say (though more can be said)... I am too ashamed of myself. Lord have mercy on us all...
Comment by Eric Ollila
October 7-13, 2007
My comment is in response to Ray Edward's statement about our works “earning” rewards. In a certain sense I would have to agree. The Bible does talk about being rewarded according to our works. And as Ray mentioned, we see in the parable of the talents, that the servants that used their talents actually increased in talents. So, in a certain sense they were earning interest on what the Lord had already given them.
This is all good and Biblical. Where the difficulties come is when we start looking at works and talents as means by which to earn salvation. Salvation is a gift. He who receives Jesus Christ receives eternal life. We are doomed to die, but Christ has become our Substitute and Surety. This is the work of God—to Believe on Him whom God hath sent. For this, no work can be done. Its pretty simple and straight forward.
Daniel Ocampo said...
This in response to Ray Edwards who wrote: "In fact, the great paradox is that the closer we come to Christ and the more like Him we become the more we would realize how unlike Him we really are. Hence, the more “saved” we are, the more “lost” we’ll feel."
I like your ideas and reflections until I have come to your last paragraph stated above, with special emphasis on the last sentence. Would you mind expounding more and shed more light on this? It's quite tricky for me. Would it be clearer to say that the closer we get to know Jesus and see the difference he makes in our lives by his grace through faith, the more we would appreciate his gift of salvation? I said that because that's how I experience my unending desire to share the good news of salvation because it's just so good not to share. It's like "fire in my bones" (Jeremiah), so hard to keep, it comes out naturally, we just can't help but share it.
But please share more.
Thanks,
Dan
Hi Daniel,
I would love to "expound". :)
It's what I see as one of the great paradoxes of Christianity. Jesus said that in order to LIVE we must DIE. Also, that the FIRST will be LAST and the LAST, FIRST! TO become MATURE Christians we must become as LITTLE children ...
Well, now you can add to this that the really HUMBLE man will think that he has a problem with PRIDE. And as soon as you start thinking that you are humble that's the time when you are the PROUDEST!
Isn't it interesting how Ellen White tells us that during the time of trouble the SEALED SAINTS are going to be distressed over their past sins?? Imagine that they are already sealed and SAVED but will be worrying about their salvation.
I think that your increased desire to share Christ the more you know about Him is quite natural but it says nothing about your ASSURANCE of salvation. And couldn't it be that the more you know of Jesus the more OBLIGATED you feel to share him? And if we serve out of obligation are our motives pure? (Not directed at you but general questions to ponder.)
By Eric Ollila:
Saturday, October 13, 2007
My response is to Heather’s comment she made on 9/15/07 about my posting on the “Wrath of God.”
I never stated that God’s wrath is merely passive. Hell fire is definitely not passive. I did admit that I do not understand how it all fits together. But at the same time, it cannot be denied that the texts in Romans clearly indicate a “giving them up.” This ‘giving them up’ is a part of God’s wrath.
Often times in Scripture there are paradoxes that present themselves. And so far, I have yet to find an instance where what seemed to be a paradox didn’t harmonize perfectly when, at a later time I was able to understand the larger context. So, just because I can’t fully explain everything about God’s wrath, I am not going to throw out the verses that I can’t seem to fully understand at this point. And, as I have heard God’s wrath presented, it is not very often you hear anything about God’s wrath in the terms of giving people over and up.
All I am saying is that God’s wrath as a passive and an active principle need to be considered. Not just the active side and not just the passive side, but both.
Regarding the comment which you stated “I refuse to believe anyone is that far.” I am assuming you mean “you refuse to believe anyone has gone so far as to commit the unpardonable sin.”
I would strongly caution against such strong statements like that. I shall list a few Biblical examples of people who did go that far, people who did commit the unpardonable sin:
1) Cain
2) The Antedeluvians
3) Judas
4) Pilate
5) The majority of Jews in Jesus day
6) Saul (King Saul from Old Test.)
7) Annanias & Saphira
Jude 1:5 through Jude 1:7 (KJV)
5I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. 6And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. 7Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
8) And the Bible says many people in our day will do the same (see 2 Peter 3 & 2 Tim. 3)
God’s grace is always there. But, when we resist the voice of the Holy Spirit so much so that our conscience becomes “seared” then we can no longer hear what God is trying to say to us.
1 Tim. 4:1 through 1 Tim. 4:2 (KJV)
1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
When people reach this point, in most cases there is no turning back. I say “in most cases” because the Bible teaches that God can heal a damaged conscience (nothing is impossible for God), but the problem is when most these people get this far, it is very unlikely they will pay enough attention to the Lord to “let” Him fix their lives. It is not that the Spirit ever stops speaking, it is that they stop hearing. And yes, this point can be reached before we die and before Jesus comes again.
In fact, the mark of the beast and the seal of God issues declare this as well. Everybody that receives the mark of the beast will have passed the limit while they are still alive and before Jesus comes back. Their probation could be safely said to be “over.” And as Jesus indicates in Matthew 24, these people won’t even know they passed their limit, just like the people in Noahs day didn’t know they had passed their limit until the waters began to fall.
Grace ended for them the day the door shut on the ark. But they didn’t realize that until seven days later when they felt the wet drops falling on their heads.
Those who receive the seal of God, on the other hand, will be “fixed” on doing God’s will. They will reach a point in their lives that “nothing” could make them choose to follow another master other than Jesus Christ. They are so imbued with the Spirit and Character of Christ that there is no effacing it from them. They are dead set to go wherever the Lamb goes, even if it means to the slaughter. This, too will happen before they die and before Jesus comes.
In response to Eric;
I am sorry that you felt I was attacking passive wrath, I feel that it is both. Wrath by nature however is intense which at least to me is more active then passive. As regards to your list of names that committed the unpardonable sin there is no scriptures referencing that they committed the unpardonable sin. I don't think we really know what that sin is because it is not spelled out in scripture. I reject therefore that any of these names committed this sin. They still could have received grace.
1) Cain
2) The Antedeluvians
3) Judas
4) Pilate
5) The majority of Jews in Jesus day
6) Saul (King Saul from Old Test.)
7) Annanias & Saphira
Cain was a murderer but so was David, there is forgiveness then for murderers. Judas betrayed Jesus but so did the other Apostles. The only difference is they repented. I feel no one is beyond God's grace if we are willing to be repentant and humble. Only those who blaspheme the Spirit have committed the unpardonable sin. I suppose we disagree what that is.
I like Tim's synopsis of Whidden's Ellen G White on Salvation:
"In chapter 6 by Whidden I like how he puts it that it is ‘free grace’ rather than ‘free will.’ This is Ellen White’s view of God’s initiative. We are so messed up that we would not respond to God unless he took the initiative and drew us to him. Yet he does not use force in this drawing. So without this drawing and wooing by God we are hopeless. I am thankful that God takes the initiative in our salvation." So succinctly expressed. We are completely incapacitated by our sinful nature and did not just need a Redeemer, but a Redeemer who would take the initiative and draw us back to Himself. Max Lucado is right- No wonder they call Him Savior!
Garfield
Garfield this is a response to your comments on the Biblical Research Institute's "Comments on the 'In Adam/In Christ' Motifs” by Manuel Rodriguez, along with your comments to Romans 5 and Whidden's Chapter 4.
I agree with you, that it is encouraging to know that James and Ellen White struggled to understand Justification, Sanctification, and Glorification. But what really caught my attention in your blog was your line of reason dealing with Romans 5. It just makes sense what you said. Praise the Lord the Gospel is supposed to be simple. It's refreshing to hear it put so plainly. If we were considered sinners before we sinned...because of Adam. Then wouldn't the logical conclusion be that we are righteous before living righteous lives? I agree with you...Jesus justified (past tense) us at the Cross...our part is to simply believe...to "cultivate" faith in His Atonement. I'm not sure why BRI focuses more on our "works" than on God's "works" for us.
It just seems clear to me...before I knew Jesus, He had already died for me...He had already justified me. It has been by faith that I have entered into His covenant with the Father.
Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified (past tense) by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, (before we responded)
Romans 5:8...while we were sinners, Christ died (past tense) for us.
Romans 5:9 ...being justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Romans 5:10 ...when we were enemies, we were reconciled (past tense) to God by the death of His Son.
Romans 5:11 ...our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received (past tense) the atonement.
Courage to you brother!
In Response to "Week Six -Heather Barbian"
Heather, in class you bring up some deep insights and ask some hard hitting questions. To be honest, I was quite disappointed with your blog this week. All you did was quote and summarize what you read. It was nice that you shared your 'favorite' sections or verses, but I hope next time you will throw out some of your questions, reflections, confusions and even disagreements. You took the time to do the readings, instead of summarizing content, just hit us with a reaction you had to it. I hear it in class, don't be shy on the blog.
Further response to "Week Six -Heather Barbian"
I just reviewed some of your comments on comments (unpardonable sin...). That's what I'm talking about! Drop the gloves and give those guys a run for their money. Make Oprah proud!
Desmond Haye
I agree with Garfield that our concept of the emancipation experience is limited. Seventh-day Adventists must reexamine our doctrine of Salvation. For it is very evident that because of the limitations we place on ourselves, and our understanding of this doctrine, we miss the need for a more Wholistic model of salvation. We can no longer be content with merely a pioneer approach to this most precious doctrine; but we must be willing to move for God is not static in His plan of salvation but active. As students preparing to lead a people into the millennium we need to grasp the important model that is been presented-a bigger and better one.
It is pertinent to note that heart knowledge of this great salvation plan will revolutionize our churches. It will release many from the religious apathy that that is holding them captive.
Thank God that all this is possible through Christ. For in Christ our noblest aspirations can be reached, and the most blessed salvation experience will be realized.
I agree with Eric, where he states that there are some sins that we have to take to the feet of Jesus many times before we physically experience deliverance from them. Sin has such grip on us that it makes us slave to it; as a result many of us find ourselves constantly going to Christ for forgiveness for the same sin over and over again. But one can rejoice in the fact that every time we go to Christ He is there ready and willing to forgive us no matter how often we come to Him. As the scriptures declare in Romans 5:20 that where sin abound grace did much more abound.
comments: on jjwlaper assigments Romans 5
Interesting analysis, I also though how human nature can become perfect? we have sinful nature and is no possible to find perfection in us, but I also remember that God see us trough Jesus, He is not looking at us directly, He see Jesus in our place instead. So that way man can be perfet in God presence
Response to Freddy’s comments on Angel Manuel Rodriguez’ article on 1 Timothy 4:10.
I see what your saying. I thinkn we do need to be careful not to teach “universalism”. But I wonder if Angel Manuel Rodgriguez isn't just refuting 1888’s view of the text. The 1888 group’s belief in legal justification (that Jesus saved the world at the cross) focuses on GOD'S WORK in initiating reconciliation with sinful man. Rodriguez wouldn’t discount this completely. What concerns me about his Soteriology is that it seems as though he focuses more on MAN'S WORK in responding to God. I believe this sort of view minimizes Jesus’sacrifice/atonement, producing a man-centered, works-based Soteriology. Romans 2:4 says that it is the “goodness of God that leads man to repent.” Blessings brother!
coment on Dale Baker assigment:
I agree with you, God has done all the necesary for the human race to be save and now by a simple step of faith we can obtain the merits of christ and become part of His kingdom.
Hi jjwalper
Mika here...
jjwalper wrote: “So according to scripture, what does it mean to be perfect? It means to love your enemy as yourself.”
I can see in your writing hints toward sanctification (work of a lifetime, “become increasingly more and more perfect like Jesus”) but the tone of the entry seemed to be perfection as an end to itself. The definition of perfection given was loving your enemies through the help of Jesus. And so I wonder, how does Rom 12:1, 2 work?
Romans 12:1-2 …by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice… which is your spiritual service of worship… but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.
Is it right to say perfection is in the loving of your enemy? I kind of see it as including being living sacrifice. A living sacrifice that doesn’t die with the shedding of blood (1). But a sacrifice that says we are consecrated to God in such a way that it says we belong to God.
What do you think?
Peace,
mika
This comment is in regard to jjwalper.
I could not agree more with your critic of “revivals” that emphasize hell. I think there should be a seminary class on the ethics of conversion. Is it okay to use unethical/immoral ways to “get people in”? We should take a close look at many of our traditional modes of evangelism. To what lengths do we go to “get people in” to our church? Fear (“join the remnant or else)? Westernization (“the culture of the real church”)? Celebrity-style impersonal technology (3ABN, Amazing Facts, etc.)? What we convert people with is what we convert people to. Is this what we want for our church?
This is about Desmond's post.
I thought it was interesting how you discussed Ellen White's statement that we are not born with the guilt of Adam. Rather our our inheritance leads to sinful acts which lead to guilt. This perspective tells me that we each are individually accountable to God. I needed to hear the challenge to recognize how deep my depravity is so that I can see my need for Jesus and His righteousness.
my coment on MATENA KEFA O.
REFLECTION ON CHAPTER 4 OF ROMANS.
ABRAHAM OUR FOREFATHER.
I did like you comment, and I also find interesting that James chapter 2 use the same example of Abraham to prove that Abraham was justified by works, is any way that we can harmonized this two concept? I would like to have a reponse if possible.
This is in response to:
jjwalper said...
Romans 6, Whidden Ch 6, BRI's article by George Reid, Why Did Jesus Die? How God Saves Us
I really liked what you had to say about God and His love. I have found that fear and love cannot exist in the same relationship. It is amazing that our God, unlike the gods that many serve, loves us and wants to have a realtionship with us. I wish that as a church we were better at showing this. Sometimes I think that we scare people by telling them about the mark of the beast. We have just switched one thing for another. That is the never ending challenge of life, who do we draw people to Christ instead of pushing them. I thank you for the things that you wrote. They really got me thinking.
Jamie Peterson
In regard to Tim ... "So often in preaching about the law, the emphasis is about the law being Ten Commandments that we need to keep because God said so. I saw the law in a new light while reading Romans 7 that needs to be highlighted. The law shows us we are all sinners and need Jesus and his grace. The law is about bringing us down on our knees rather than puffing us up with an attitude that says ‘I am better than you because I keep the right day!’"
I fully agree here with Tim that we often leave out the seemingly "negative" things that Paul says about the law. For example, in Romans 5:20 he says, "The law was added so that the trespass might increase," and "For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death." (7:11)
According to Paul as sinners the is NOT our friend. It condemns us. It kills us. It declares us guilty.
We can be so accustomed to defending the law against those who claim that it is abolished that we forget this aspect of the law as well. If we give a TOTAL view of the law we would also clearly show this aspect as Paul wasn't afraid to declare.
I enjoyed Ray Edwards' comment on Roman 7 "In Roman 7 Paul discusses the obligation the law places upon him and the conflict that arise in him because of the presence of the “law of sin” in his sinful nature. I know that many discuss whether this conflicting experience was pre-conversion or post-conversion for Paul. I think that this was the latter because Paul speaks of a “delight in God’s Law” (v. 22) and I cannot imagine the unconverted person speaking of a delight to do God’s will."
Indeed the ungodly has no experiential relationship with God and therefore cannot speak of being delighted to do God's will.
Comment on Jamie Peterson for 10/20/07
I am happy to know that you are getting a better understanding of the whole salvation topic. It is very evident in class and on the blog that there are many of us who are really wrestling with the ideas and themes that relate to salvation. I like the point that you made about the fact that we can do anything to change ourselves, but that it is God that works in us. I believe that for persons who did not grow up in the church will often say before they accept Christ there are some things that they will need to fix before surrendering to Him. Such individuals do not realize that surrender to Christ will give him or her all the power that is needed to overcome, and fix whatever needs to be fixed.
Jonathan’s paper provided interesting concepts about why Jesus died by the authors.
The comment about the Character of God caused me to identify the character of God with one word “love.” For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:16
To Ray Edwards:
I am very impressed with your exposition of Romans 7. I am also grateful for the perspective that you present on the text under consideration. It is my belief also that the context in which Paul speaks is a post- conversion experience. He also states in other places that he must “die daily”, and “beat his body under subjection.” The beauty of Paul’s statements is that his words are realistic, and all human beings can attest to that fact. I am encouraged by the fact that Paul is human, and writes in this tenor expressing his struggles. It would be worthwhile for us to contemplate this fact a Christians and start being real in our walk with Christ. We are all struggling. The fight against the flesh is a great challenge for all of us; but I thank God that through Christ’s atoning work we can have the victory. Yes, we are more than conquerors in and through Him.
In response to Debbedo Brown;
I liked your post on the Atonement you really seem to know your stuff. Personally I am confused with the connections between atonement, forgiveness and sanctuary. Does God forgive immediately or does God have to wait until the blood is sprinkled in the Sanctuary. If there is no 1844 can there still be forgiveness? If there is forgiveness only if Christ went into the Sanctuary why wait until 1844? Also how can the New Testament writers (much earlier than 1844) speak of God forgiving and saving? I know I am asking a lot if you get a chance I would like to hear your thoughts.
My comment is in regard to Raydal assignment.
It was interesting to me to hear that if Adam rejected Jesus as substitute then the whole human family would be doomed. Was also a surprise for me, I was always under the assumption that the task would have been passed on from generation to generation until we got it right and in our case until Jesus came and died for our sins.
Comment for Walter
Walter as you expected the comments have come flowing in pertaining to you reflection paper. I appreciated your comments and agree with you that we have lost focus on our job responsibilities, which are to love and respect each other, even people that may have different beliefs and convictions than us. I am also glad that you got a first hand example of how not to evangelize and hopefully your testimony would be an eye opener to many within our church.
Comment for Mika
Just want to say Mika I am in complete agreement with you in regard to how individualist we, as humans tend to be at times. WE often forget I truly belief that we are the sinful one and the ones that have failed. And then I our ignorance turn around and question God and weather or not he is faithful and worthy of his trust. But since the beginning of time God has been only good to us and worthy of our praise.
Comment for Jamie Peterson
In regards to your comments made in your reflection paper about the fact that the devil deal in absolutes and the fact that they is no middle ground is also true for God.
I also believe that even Jesus doses not believe in a middle ground and that he requires us to make a definitive decision I believe the difference between Jesus and the devil however is that even though both deal in absolutes Jesus allows for mistakes and awards forgiveness to all who ask. Whereas the devil persecutes all who do not choose him. With that said I believe that the middle ground you speak about in regards to the church is more about love and respect for each other rather than middle ground.
Comment for jjwalper
In regards to your comments made in your reflection paper about perfection about whether or not it was humanly attainable. I too find myself pondering on that question but I am unable to answer it with any true conviction. What did God mean in saying “Be ye therefore perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect.” Was it meant to be a dream to aspire to or is perfection truly attainable prior to glorification? And if it is attainable why is salvation by works viewed so negatively? I am of the understanding that it is humanly impossible to attain perfection without God but as the scriptures say all things are possible to those that believe.
Comment on Eric Ollila assignment
In regards to your comments made on Romans 6 which state “in other words the evil desires, emotions, imaginations, and urges that are tugging at me to give in become crucified. They are laid to rest. They are cast down along with every high thing that exalts itself against Christ.” I understood the text a little different. It is my belief that sin will still be rampant and tug and test us daily however with daily submission to Jesus we have the opportunity to reject these sins. Meaning that our success is not a grantee and we are still capable of turning our back on Jesus again. I hope I understood your comments accurately and will continue to give this concept thought.
Comments for Tim
I must say that I agree with the fact that the Law has proven to all of us that we have fallen short of the expectation of God. And I thing you are absolutely correct in saying that the use of the law by some to empower self simply reaffirms the transgression of that law. Because at the heart of God law is love and even is they was any doubt about that Jesus reaffirms that when he came and was extremely clear to expressing the importance of love in our lives.
This comment is about Earl's 6th submission.
I agree with you that the Christian life is wierd- it is a paradox. We do fight many battles as you said. I too take God's grace for granted too much. I appreciate your reminder that we are called to fight this battle through being submissive to Christ. I like your point that it is grace that gets us through at every point in our Christian walk. I am thankful that there is joy in this journey.
This comment is regarding the reflection that Geraldine made about the second coming of Christ.
I think that is a very timely subject. God's message to the inhabitants of the earth today is, "Be ye also ready for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh." Matt.22:24.
Taken from a prayer meeting thought last evening:
Y1 6-29-1899: Just as fast as God's Spirit is taken away, Satan's cruel work will be done upon land and sea. Judgments by fire and flood will increase in fearfulness; for Satan claims his harvest of souls in the destruction.
Geraldine, please add to your list of things to pray for: CHURCH UNITY.
I believe if we can put aside differences and get on one accord, God can and is waiting to do great things for and through us.
THE KING IS COMING
The king is coming,
the angels did sing;
The King is coming,
His dear ones to bring;
Joy, happiness and peace from above,
To reign there with Him in a city of love.
The King is coming,
Make ready your hearts;
The King is coming,
Never more to depart;
With power from God, on His blessed throne,
Surrounded by angels in melodious tone.
The King is coming to give you a crown,
The King is coming, with the loud trumpet sound;
Those who sleep in Christ shall be first to rise,
The saints who remain here shall meet in the skies.
THE KING IS COMING, THE KING IS COMING, THE KING IS COMING, THE KING IS COMING...
THE KING IS COMING, THE KING IS COMING, GET READY TO MEET HIM, THE KING IS COMING!
Geraldine C. O'Neal © 1999
My comment is in regard to Geraldine O’Neal.
I am one that is tired of sin and evil. Your list has many good suggestions for prayer. If I may, I would add that we should pray, as Jesus taught us to pray, that God’s Kingdom come and His will be done on earth as it is in heaven. This may help us take a closer look at the ills of this world (violence, oppression, injustice) and act out against them, as a sacrament to the Second Coming.
In response to Dan Bates re: "I have a major problem with this view based on Romans 2:14-15 when Paul talking about Jews and Gentiles wrote, "Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written of their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them." According to my understanding Paul is saying that when a person (in this case a Gentile) lives their life according to what they believe to be right, God views that in the same light as someone (a Jew) who has had the privilege of knowing the law and following it. In other words God will judge according to the light that has been given.
Dan made some key point in this post and I appreciated the D.A. EGE quote as well. I find that the fact that Ellen White states that these "heathen" people heard God's voice speaking to them through nature that they "know" Jesus, just not by the NAME. I would venture to think that everyone who is saved would have KNOWN Jesus in the sense that they accepted God's leading in their life.
Case in point: I notice that a lot of international students would use English names just for the sake of easier pronunciation for English speakers. So do I really know these students if I don't call them by their given name.
No man can really be saved by a name but by the CHARACTER of that person. Jesus' name means more than a head knowledge of a historical figure. In the same sense who could those people of Old Testament time "know" Jesus even before He was born.
That's the sense I get of those being saved without ever hearing his name--they are still saved THROUGH his name.
Thanks again for your post.
Response to Dale A Baker
Justification by Faith Before 1888
Your right there has been so much debate over the issue of justification by faith. The debate over whether or not we are justified by faith or by faith and works is a debate even at the seminary. I agree with your assessment that we are saved by faith or justified by faith and by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8,9) but that true justification or should I say true faith will show itself in works...so I agree with you completely, we are saved by faith but it should show itself with works. We must be careful not to adopt any model of salvation that merits our works in any way. Our faith indeed will be judged in the end according to the works God accomplished through us...through our faith. Blessings!
Response to Heather's comment...
We shall have to agree to disagree.
I believe Scripture provides ample evidence as to what the unpardonable sin is. If you would like texts, I would be happy to share.
I believe the unpardonable sin is any sin that is not repented of. While there are NO texts that say "Judas committed the unpardonable sin" Or "The antedeluvians commited the upardonable sin" Or "Pilate commited the unpardonable sin." etc... there is scriptural evidence that suggests each of the individuals listed had sins that were not repented of.
In response to Eric,
I disagree that any unrepented sin is the "unpardonable sin". The unpardonable sin is attributing what is God's work the Devil's or speaking against the Spirit. Look at the context of the verses. Mat 12:31-32, "Therefore I say unto you, every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men; but the blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him; but whosoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in that which is to come. "
Mar 3:29-30, "but whosoever shall blaspheme against the Holy Spirit hath never forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin: because they said, He hath an unclean spirit."
There is no biblical support that says that the unforgivable sin is simply unrepented of sin. It is something specific and of a greater magnitude.
Comment on Tim assignment
Thanks for your thoughts
I also believe that making emphasis in keeping the law and pushing people to obey it is not the best way, as soon we know Jesus obey the law is part of our Christian life and it become very ease, the purpose of the law is to show us Christ. As we go more close to Christ more ease is to obey the law.
#8 Earl
Comments are in response to Desmond blog;
The issue of law as it pertains to salvation has always raised controversy but the term law does not always have to be viewed as negative or restrictive. But in the case of salvation by works, the word law can instead be viewed as uncontrollable reaction to love and faith in Christ. It is not something you have to do but rather something you want to do to show your appreciation for his gift of life through salvation.
This is a response to Dale's comment.
You said, "are we saved by faith alone or by work, or are we saved by both? But it is vital for us to realize that faith is to be sustained by work. We are saved to work."
I usually think of your statement the other way- Our faith sustains our work. But I can see it going both ways.
I agree with you that we are saved to work. I think that as pastors/ministers we need to do a better job of teaching and living this.
This comment is regarding Eric's reflection paper.
Your statement regarding the sorrow that Christ will experience throughout eternity brought to memory the first time that I read that in Spirit of Prophecy. I felt badly because He has suffered so much already. But it’s truly stated that He will pause and shed tears because of the lost. After the tears that I cried also, my next impression was to do all that I can with his help to be in a right relationship with him and to lead souls to Christ to try to reduce the pain.
Please reflect on excerpts from a poem:
As I carried my cross all alone
For many, many years,
Jesus with thorn pierced brow I was shown was shedding , many, many tears.
It seemed He was saying to me personally
My child I paid the price,
Behold my thorn pierced brow and see A perfect sacrifice.
It makes Him sad and He sheds a tear
As we struggle beneath the heavy weight;
Many perplexities will reappear,
All of the grief, and the pain, and all of the heartache.
Spirit of Prophecy reveals,
Throughout all eternity
Jesus will sorrow over rejecters of His appeals;
PRAY THAT HE WILL NOT NEED TO SHED A SINGLE TEAR FOR YOU OR FOR ME.
Geraldine C. O’Neal ©1999
Remember: Rom. 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Blessing and Peace!
Tim wrote: "I agree with the BRI article that says it is the results that passed on to humankind, not the sin itself. It does not make sense to me how people could be realistically in Adam when he sinned. This sentence caught my attention: “As Adventists we do believe that the sin of Adam weakened human nature making our sinning unavoidable.” It seems that in many cases Adventists teach contrary to this. We are often brought up with the attitude of pull yourself up by your bootstraps. You can overcome if you try hard enough. I think that our inability to overcome with God’s help is an important message because we rely on ourselves too much.
I agree with you completely on this one Tim. Much of what we are taught in our congregations and some of us are guilty of doing the very same thing of emphasizing that if one tries just a little hard they can be justified and sanctified, and even glorified. Fallacy!!!!
Garfield
My comment is in regard to Tim (week 9 submission).
I agree that the tension between judgment and justification is a healthy one. I’m wondering if, on the whole, it’s better to have people within Adventism work to find as many places of agreement as possible, or work to emphasize the differences, thus emphasizing the healthy tension. What are the missiological implications for various contexts?
To comment on the blog posted by Debbedo Brown:
I agree with Paul in the importance of the God in the conversation process from and to sum it up I guess. I view salvation like the air that we breathe it is available to all just like the gift of salvation however. The impact of sin is similar to us being under water we can only survive in it for so long. And when Jesus die for us on the cross he allowed us to opportunity to surface from our watery grave but it is up to us to breathe in the fresh air of eternal life.
Hi Geraldine,
you wrote: We need more faith to believe the inspired Biblical writings and the inspired Spirit of Prophecy writings.
I wonder if we do indeed need more faith. Are you thinking that we need more faith such that there will be less mystery?
If so... I’m not sure about that – I almost feel that I should have as little faith as the Lord wants me to have. Otherwise – I may be searching for things in scripture and spirit of prophecy that aren’t really there.
Peace… mika
In response to Mike Much discussion was about unconditional justification being applied universally or only applied to those that choose to exercise their right to choose - life. The arguments sustained between the 1888 committee and BRI reminds me of the once hot topic of “right to life” discussions.
I appreciated Mika's comparison of the 1888 Committee--BRI theological differences to that of the great abortion debate. In this sense I think that the fetus will be compared to salvation and whether we have a choice to keep or lose our salvation?
It's a troublesome metaphor because the baby is a separate entity with intelligence of its own unlike salvation but I see how the arguments can seem so similar. Even Mika admits at the end of his posts that it didn't help much to go in that direction. :)
But it is difficult to find any one model that would help us better understand the subject of salvation. Reminds me of the several sacrifices in the OT sanctuary service that all represented Christ ministry in different ways. No one sacrifice could sum up Jesus.
Paul himself used several metaphors of his own--adoption, redemption, grafting, washing, life/death etc. We can expect any ONE MODEL to fail at some point to capture some aspect of salvation.
Thanks for the comparison Mika.
Dale Baker
In response to Tim’s on the 9/07/07
Tim stated that when men fall his spiritual perception were dimmed. I want to agree with him that this is so, because scripture teaches us that when man fell several things changed about him. His spiritual nature also fell. Not only that, but man began to be afraid, fretful among other things. Another thing too is that man started to run away from God. But God in His love and mercy kept chasing after us. And the more he chases the more we seem to run. But as the old saying go we can run but we can’t hide. Truly Gods business is to save us and clearly we see that He will go at length to save us.
Dale Baker
In response to Jamie Peterson’s comment on 9/14/2007
Jamie made the point that “We have no right to say that we did any of the work ourselves, and the moment that we try to do the work ourselves we have taken our lives out of the only hands that can save us.” It is true and very important that we trust God and allow our faith to take hold in Him. We cannot hold on to Christ because we will let go, we always need to allow Christ to hold on to us and then we will be in good standing. Many times we try to play God by thinking we can overcome sin by ourselves, and those are the times we get in trouble. But we need to always be cognizant of the fact that it is only God that can deliver us, and save us from our sin.
Dale Baker
Respond to Ray Edwards 09/29/2007
Ray stated that “It is interesting to see that Ellen White did not profess to be perfect.” Many times we view Ellen as been the most perfect and upright person on earth at that time, who was ready for translation at any time. At times we even go to the extent that if we were to be in her presence we would be condemned because of the way we perceive her to be perfect. However, we see clearly in her writings that she had she is always longing for more of Christ and His righteousness. This suggests to me that she had her struggles just like every one of us. We are to always be striving for perfection, but we also need to understand that it does not happen overnight.
In response to Ray Edwards,
I read your post and I also find Romans 9 incredibly troublesome. I definitely see a Calvinistic view but I am also troubled that it says, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated” even before they were born. The concept of God hating and hardening hearts hardly seems like a God I would want to worship. Verse 22 is also troublesome, “What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?” This verse seems to imply that God creates people in order to damn them, doesn’t this seem unjust? I don’t personally find this section dealing with grace as much as how God chooses to bless the rest of the world, through us and previously the Jews. This section was originally meant to explain why the Jews were un-chosen in a sense and the Gentiles have taken their place.
Comment on Mika's post:
I would love to join you in that camping! I guess we are both experiencing the same challenge of trying to reconcile both sides of this current debate on salvation. I do agree that there is a sense in which justification is both objective and subjective. While we wrestle with these deep issues which stem from the diverse understanding of Paul's writings, let us tread prayerfully, and cautiously. For the secret things belong unto God but that which is revealed(regarding the plan of Salvation) is revealed for our learning).Truly, some of paul's writings are hard to comprehend, and often times we try to wrestle certain aspects to our own destruction. I purport that we pray, and labour to achieve this broader model of salvation that will encompass all the varying ideas in there correct perspectives.And may the Spirit help our imperfections as wrestle with these eternal truths.
Ray, I see your point. As i read Romans 9, i too came to the conclusion that this is one of those "hard to understand" passages of Paul. It appears as if the Calvinistic views are being purported, and as a result certain scholars have gone off on this tangent.Paul, i believe in this passage is making the point that God can choose to do whatever he desires,He will have mercy on whomever he wishes, and will pardon the one he desires. The issue then is his mercy towards the undeserving sinner- God does have a choice. But really though how should we understand the mercy of God? It is hard to truly wrap our minds around this issue. How can he be merciful to some,and "unmerciful" to others? Listen to Paul in vs20-23: "But indeed, O man , who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it , "Why have you made me like this ?" Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor , and another for dishonor? What if God , wanting to show his wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for dstruction." This here is strong language by the apostle, but it brings me back to the pertinent point being made here,and that is He is God, and He can choose to do whatever the wants. he gives mercy to whom he wishes ,and pardon even to the undeserving. It is thought provoking , but it is true.
Week Nine
Response to Heather Barbian’s comments…
Romans 9 is a tough one…the only way I can make sense of it is by verse 16’s explanation that … “it is not of him that wills, nor to him that runs, but to God that shows mercy.” It’s a refreshing reminder that God is endowed with the Sovereign ability to choose who He will reveal Himself to and who He won’t…I say it refreshing because mankind is increasingly becoming more and more arrogant, as he/she tries to usurp God’s rightful position as sole Arbiter of Revelation. God is in control…not any man, no matter how many books he’s written or what school he’s gone to. God keeps it simple for us…He’s in control. I know that is a simplistic answer, but I tried.
As for Whidden’s “Justification by faith-Before 1888” …I didn’t realize that Ellen White had a distaste for the phrase, “I am saved”…wow, I knew something wasn’t right when those preachers used to come to us at grade school and stand up front yelling, “Are you saved?!” “Are you sure?” “How do you know if you are saved?!” After awhile you just wanted to stand up to get him to stop. I need to read this chapter…good stuff.
Hi Earl,
Earl wrote: “At he end of the day God and God alone shall decide on who shall receive his gift why stress it? It is out of our hands. We should concentrate on just depending on him for everything and not worry about drama..”
I think from your response that you are in awe of God soveirgn right to choose. While I have always thought in similar lines – today – I am at odds. Because it seems to do away with my choice. And so, Calvin is raised and Arminean down played. And I don’t know how to let go of the stress. I can trust in Him, but neither my faith, nor lineage, nor association can grant me success in the end. And now I can understand the text when it says, “then why blame me?”
Peace,
mika
Hi Ray,
Ray wrote: “Romans 9:14-23 is indeed a troublesome passage and seem to champion the Calvinist view of salvation… But I think that the point Paul is making here is that God’s choice is always based on MERCY not on what humans can do. Paul is playing the “bad cop” to make the point that God’s election is always based on grace.”
I was troubled as well by the same passage. And I can tend to see that Paul is making a case for God’s mercy beyond what a human could do. But I wished I could have read or seen the “good cop” come into play. Maybe the good cop is following in a later chapter or was already understood.
Comment on Daniel Ocampo
I am in agreement with Daniel’s comment concerning the BRI document In Adam/In Christ. However, I believe there need to be a degree of understanding or at least trying to understand the idea of in Adam/ in Christ. I also believe that the message the BRI is conveying on this subject is highly misleading. Indeed, if we were in Adam when he disobeyed; then, it is we, Adam’s offspring, who took on our own natures and not the nature of Adam. It is us who disobeyed through Adam. In some sense, if this is true, we could very well be credited with Adam’s disobedience. The BRI document idea of in Christ is highly misleading, as well. I believe the 1888 Study Committee has some very valuable information and reasoning’s but their insight and explanations is lacking in biblical guidance. Nowhere in the Bible is there a suggestion that we are/were in Christ while He was on the cross, at least not literary. If this was the case, I would have to concur with the document. Also, if this was true, it would have been we ourselves that died for our own sins and not Christ. Also, if this is true; then, Christ’s life, death, burial, resurrection, and ascension is obsolete and is in vain. I think that the study committee has some very enriching study topics but their conveyed meaning and understanding is what needs improvement. If we look at the subject according to the way the document suggests, then we committed the sin of disobedience by eating the fruit ourselves and we died on the cross for ourselves for our own sins.
In respones to: jjwalper on Romans 9
Like JJ and Heather, I too have had to scratch my head when reading through some of Paul's writings (or many of them). Thank you JJ for pointing to vs. 32/33 and about purseing it by faith. I think if we are honest, it is still a hard chapter to understand, but vs. 32/33 do give some help. Also it seems the focus is on God's mercy (faith) and argueing against salvation by works (vs. 11, 16). Something I've heard mentioned several times was the example of God hardening Pharoah's heart. Well, how true it is that you can't just run with what you hear, YOU HAVE TO DIG UP GODS WORD FOR YOURSELF. I checked back in Exodos about God hardening Pharoah's heart, and it show that Pharoah hardened his own heart 7 times (includeing the first several plagues) and that God is only mentioned as hardening his heart 4 times. Perhaps this could be an example of 'the unpardonable sin' where we harden our own hearts and then allows us to stay that way. Whether or not God over-rode Pharoah's will to make him an example, this is not a clear cut case of God disrespecting free choice. Pharoah already made his choice 7 times, perhaps God just confirmed it a bit for him. I would like to hear your feed back on these thoughts.
Walter wrote: …BUT, Gethsemane does seem to be a struggle between Jesus' will and God the Father's will: "yet not MY WILL but YOUR WILL be done." I don't know if that suggests appeasement or not, but there is definitly some tension there.
Hi Walter,
I heard someone talk about this text just last week. He said that many of us use this text as a catch for all “just in case it doesn’t work out.” Y’know – not my will but yours. He recommended that the difference here is that the “will” referred to is known will. It is not unknown will… so for example many seminarians may say, Lord – may I please have that position with Lake Michigan conference… but not my will… your will be done. I think it’s a fair prayer – but in fact – the praying person doesn’t really know the will of the father.
But Jesus and the Father did know the will. His prayer was beyond fair – it was known! So, I think for Jesus to say such, there is a struggle going on there – but not appeasement. He knew what the plan was and “for the joy that was set before him (he) endured the cross” Heb 12:2.
comment on Rudolph Sterling
Adam sin open the door from which death came into the world, so human inherit death but, the great news is that Jesus reverse the eternal death, so by acepting His salvation we can inherit eternal life
Geraldine O'Neal quoted Ellen White as saying:
"I saw that some were getting a false excitement, arising from preaching time; but the third angel's message is stronger than time can be. I saw that this message can stand on its own foundation and needs not time to strengthen it."
I really appreciated this quote. I think we sometimes feel the need to "help" truth. We feel that if we dont tell people exactly how to respond to God they wont do it correctly and if we dont pressure them with the fact that we believe time is short they dont take it seriously. I think we take away from the truth when we feel we need to add pressure and control to get people to respond to God.
-Jeff Carlson
Masimba Thomas Said:
"Ellen G White also denounces this teaching as unbiblical. She even goes further by saying that it is dangerous to say that “I am saved.” Even though I disagee with her as well because If one cannot give a testimony, then what kind of salvation can one claim?Throughout the scripture, there are several incidents where all who were saved had to give a very strong testimony in favour of christ and his gospel. Therefore I fear that if there is no testmony, then salvation may not be complete."
When she made that statement she was speaking in the context of once-saved always-saved. She was not saying that you sould not say you are saved at any certain point, just that you should not say that you are unable to fall. So you dont have to disagree with her after all. Peace...
-Jeff Carlson
My comment is in regard to anonymous (11/6/07):
I am with you on much of what you said about chapter 9. However, I’m wondering what Bible texts you’re referring to when you imply that testimony is a necessary part of salvation.
Jeff wrote:
“The ironic thing is that my striving for moral purity made me ethically sub par! And out of the three areas that we are called grow in – morally, doctrinally and ethically – the one that Jesus said was the “most” important was ethics. If you are morally and doctrinally correct and you are a jerk you are in danger of being booted out.”
Hey Jeff,
I wonder – do you think that it is possible to be morally in line and not be ethical? Is it not true that a Moral being is also ethical? I think I get your point. But I would think that a jerk, would also be closer to immoral then moral.
This is in response to Jeff Carlson, comment #7.
Jeff, I have had a similar experience in the past that when I have strived for personal morality only, focusing on what I do- that led me to be lacking in ethics. Good reminder to have morality, doctrine and ethics!
You gave this as a Biblical definition for sin: "sin is the temptation to act individually on you own apart from God." If temptation = sin then Jesus would be a sinner since he was tempted. I think the point you are trying to make is that Jesus faced the same struggle with sin, not that he sinned.
Comments on
Desmond C. Haye said...
BRI: Dynamics of Salvation
Whidden: Chapter 6
Acts 6
I really appreciated the fact that you were willing to admit to changing your views on things. I think to often it is just easier to say that we have it all figured out but it is a lot harder to say that we might be wrong. You also did a fabulous job of summarizing what Christ does for us. It is a beautiful understanding of how truly big God is.
Comments on Tim’s submission of 10-24-07
I also see that as a church we rely a lot on ourselves instead of making God the one who does the work. I have had a hard time with this idea because I know so many people who believe that even after we come to God the work is really ours. God comes in a makes up the difference instead of Him doing the work. If that is the way that it works then we could to a certain degree save ourselves. I know that is a bit of an extreme but that is what they are saying to a point. I think it is a lot easier to believe that way though. I think it is a lot harder to let go of our lives and give them over to God completely. I think that is why our church often falls into this ditch.
I also liked what you had to say about the nature of Christ. You should take a look at this week’s student movement (Nov. 9th). There are some people that feel that Christ needed to go through exactly our same situation if He can help guide us through ours. I have a problem with that. That would say that Christ came here because he didn’t really know what this earth was like. Check it out and tell me what you think.
Tim said...
Week 9 submission
I really enjoyed what you had to say about God hardening someone’s heart. I have had a hard time with that phrase as well. It has often been explained to me that God takes the blame for everything that happens even if He just let someone make their own choice. I have had a hard time understanding the fullness of that idea. If you have any thoughts I would appreciate them.
I also have seen the tension between salvation by faith and works. I think that I have come to a balanced idea but I often wonder if I will ever have it all worked out. I feel that we are saved by faith in God but that faith includes turning our lives over to God. If we do that then God lives in us and our actions will be in accord with His will. There will still be things that He hasn’t changed yet so we won’t be perfect overnight, but the great thing is that when we surrender to God we surrender our right to an agenda. He changes what He changes on His time schedule not ours. He knows us better than we know ourselves.
There has been some interesting discussion in our blog about Ellen White’s warning against saying “I am saved.” Let’s not be so quick to say “I disagree with Ellen White.” Rather, let us read what she says about salvation with a view to understanding what she means. When we read her in context it is clear that she is warning against the presumption of the teaching: “once saved, always saved.”
A comprehensive study of White’s position will show that she teaches that we have been saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved. This dynamic biblical model of salvation is not adequately communicated by the statement “I am saved.”
Some who say “I am saved” mean to say “I am saved because Jesus died for me.” For others it means, “I am saved because I have an intellectual agreement with the truth that Jesus is the Savior.” There is an element of truth in each of these statements. However, many will be lost in spite of what Christ has done and in spite of an intellectual agreement with the fact of what he has done.
Lets look at what Ellen White actually says.
“It is essential to have faith in Jesus, and to believe you are saved through Him; but there is danger in taking the position that many do take in saying, "I am saved.’” (Selected Messages, 1:373). “We are never to rest in a satisfied condition, and cease to make advancement, saying, ‘I am saved.’” (Selected Messages 1:314). “If we are disobedient, our characters are out of harmony with God's moral rule of government, and it is stating a falsehood to say, ‘I am saved.’” (315). “If you sit down with the ease-loving ones, with the words on your lips, "I am saved," and disregard the commandments of God, you will be eternally lost” (318).
“As we come to feel our utter reliance upon Christ for salvation, are we to fold our hands, and say, ‘I have nothing to do; I am saved; Jesus has done it all’?--No, we are to put forth every energy that we may become partakers of the divine nature. We are to be continually watching, waiting, praying, and working” (Selected Messages, 3:198). “Those who accept Christ, and in their first confidence say, I am saved, are in danger of trusting to themselves. . . . We are admonished, "Let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall" (1 Cor. 10:12). Our only safety is in constant distrust of self, and dependence on Christ” (Maranatha, 236).
“The promises contained in the seven beatitudes are not to be fulfilled to the one who feels self-sufficient, who turns from the Scriptures of revealed truth to a false theory, crying: ‘I am saved, I am saved. I cannot sin.’”(Signs of the Times, Feb 28, 1895). “The assertion, "I am saved, I am saved," does not prove that the soul is saved or sanctified” (Faith and Works, 121).
The only aspect of Ellen White’s discussion on this subject that causes any difficulty is when she writes one “should NEVER dare to say, ‘I am saved’" (Selected Messages, 1:314). However, this difficulty does not lead me to say that I disagree with her. Rather I seek to understand better what she meant. Having carefully read all she has to say on this subject, it seems clear to me that she means that we should NEVER say “I am saved” with the meaning that “I already have an irreversible eternal deliverance.” Note the following quotation.
“When this idea is entertained, the motives for watchfulness, for prayers, for earnest endeavor to press onward to higher attainments, cease to exist. No sanctified tongue will be found uttering these words [with the meaning of irreversible eternal deliverance] till Christ shall come, and we enter in through the gates into the city of God. Then, with the utmost propriety, we may give glory to God and to the Lamb for eternal deliverance. As long as man is full of weakness--for of himself he cannot save his soul--he should never dare to say, ‘I am saved’[with the meaning of irreversible eternal deliverance]" (Selected Messages, 1:314).
With Ellen White, I look forward to the time when I will say “now I see Him face to face. I am saved, eternally saved, ever to behold Him whom I love” (Maranatha, 303). Until then I say, I have been saved by what Christ has done, I am being saved by what Christ is doing, and I will be saved by what he will do! This is the biblical way to talk about salvation. I praise God that it is the Adventist way as well.
Martin Hanna
Commenting on Daniel Ocampo... Sometimes this is my problem, since I grew up in an Adventist Christian family and Church community I guess I am still waiting for this feeling to be a personal experience. Is it possible that Paul had this experience later in his life too, like while in prison?
I really enjoyed his post and I too can see the paradox between Paul's Romans 7 struggle and his Romans 8:1 triumph. Paul sees the fight taking place within his own mind and yet thanks God that there is condemnation.
But I'm not sure if I would reduce this assurance that Paul had to a feeling that I must wait to have. I think that Paul is rejoicing in what his mind knows even though his feelings may be saying something else. We cannot wait to feel that our sins are forgiven and that we are justified. We have to accept this all by faith--just because Jesus says that it is so.
It's that 'already' and 'not yet' tension that is so evident in the Christian's life and world that we struggle with day by day. We must like Moses see that city whose builder and maker is God while living in this present city.
Great post Daniel!
Dale Baker
Comment on Ray’s posting Nov 10 2007
I agree with Ray that there is a point to our conversion period which may not be able to trace. However, I do believe that conversion is a continuous thing in the life of the believer. Infact conversion ought to be a daily thing for the Christian since it is a surrender of the will to God. As Paul has declare that he ‘die daily’ so we all are to die daily to self and allow Christ to reign on the throne of our hearts.
I also like the perspective that Ray brought in about the angels won’t be able to sing the songs that the redeemed will sing at Christ coming. Of a truth if someone has never sinned then they would not know the joy of been released from it. Likewise, if a person has never been in prison, he or she would never have known about the joy of been free.
Comment on Debbedo’s article:
The comments presented in your post are interesting, and the perspectives shared are relevant to our understanding of the doctrine of salvation. It is true that there are current misconceptions regarding God’s foreknowledge and his pre-appointed will. And I might add that there are even more misconceptions regarding his permissive will. It is true that the future is present to God for He sees the big picture. It is also true that even though he is aware of the future he does not force man to be conformed to His will; for his foreknowledge does not impose upon our choices as human beings. It is the view of many that if he foreknew he has already willed it to be, and so man becomes mere automaton fulfilling the desires of God. But I am happy that our God is not like that, imposing his will upon his children, and restricting their power of choice. He is however patient, and i through his divine providence he is leading all things to its intended end. The Servant of the Lord encourages us by declaring:
He who loves God supremely and his neighbor as himself will work with the constant realization that he is a spectacle to the world, to angels, and to men. Making God's will his will, he will reveal in his life the transforming power of the grace of Christ. In all the circumstances of life, he will take Christ's example as his guide. {1SM 86.1}
May our will be lost in his.
Ray Edwards wrote: “I would like to piggy-back on our last class discussion… I raised the point that conversion must take place in a moment and as Dr. Hanna indicated. He prefers to think of it as both a process and moment.”
Hi Ray,
If I may, I'd like to “veggie piggy back” as well on your discussion of conversion as process and moment?
I think that you are correct in saying that there is a point of time when a person experiences conversion. And I agree with you in saying that you two are saying the same thing but in different manners.
Hopefully, a model will be available soon that won’t break down easily after a 2nd or more times of reading and understanding it the model.
Probably that model will have be built with lenses that aren’t so dark – “1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.”
Maranatha!
Comment on Ray’s article:
Your article is thought provoking, and is challenging our lopsided views on how we relate to things that pertain to salvation. While I understand and agree the point you are raising regarding conversion occurring “at point in time,” I also believe that it is also a process, and that process has various points. It is my persuasion that the current salvation model must be revised, for the argument you raise is a perfect reason why there is desperate need for this broader model of salvation. When this occurs, we should be humble enough to say that even then we will not know it all. For the mystery of salvation is great. Paul echoes in Romans 11:33 “O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out. And Daniel encourages us as we wrestle with these deep things that “He revealeth the deep and secret things: he knoweth what is in the darkness, and the light dwelleth with him” (Dan. 2:22). I am so happy that the light dwells with him, and He is willing to reveal the “deep things of God” to us. I encourage my self ,and my fellow colleagues that “ Eye hath not seen , nor ear heard , neither have entered in the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.” So let us examine this great “mystery” with much humility, and never forget that the “secret things belong to God, but those things which are revealed belong unto us and our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law (Deut.29:29).”
This comment is regarding Dan's reflection about the assurance of salvation and the difference it would make if we had that assurance. I can see that the confusion of others might trigger
doubt or disbelief.
All have sinnned; But 1Jn.I:9, gives me assurance..."If we confess...
Jesus has paid the price so that whosoever will can have the assurance of salvation based upon the completeness of His sacrifice and
faith in his righeousness. The Triune Godhead is not determined to destroy but to save. They will go to any limits to save. The Father gave His Son; The Son shed His blood and sent the Holy Spirit to assist the believer in his journey if we cooperate with Him.
If we trust our salvation to Jesus, we have the assurance of salvation. If our faith is weak we have prayer to aid us, because no good gift will he withhold from them that ask in faith, believing that he will receive it as promised.
The love comfort and strength that this trusted companion gives is the blessed hope and assurance.
No truer friend than Jesus,
Noone can love like Him;
He promised never to leave you,
He'll stay with you,
until the end.
Blessings and Peace!
Committing on Mika’s Beautiful Feet
I have found the question that you raise to be very significant to the doctrine of salvation especially as it regard the salvation of the unchurch. There is absolutely no doubt that the person who believes in the resurrection of Jesus and confesses and through dependence on the Holy Spirit keeps faithfully confessing by their mouth and life that He is Lord will be saved. However, there are people who will be saved who have never heard of the name of Jesus to confess it or ever heard of the resurrection of Jesus to believe in it. In Roman Paul says that the gentiles who have not the law practice the things contain in the law and again in 1:20, he says the invisible things of God are clearly seen in His created works. Therefore, a person who has never heard about Jesus but lived up to the light he or she has received through nature and God’s other media of revelations will certainly be saved. However, has Doctor Hanna puts it they will only be admitted in the kingdom based on the provision Jesus has provided for man.
In response to Walter;
I am glad I am not alone struggling with many of Paul’s writings especially Romans 9. It is interesting that you mentioned that in Exodus that Pharaoh hardened his own heart SEVEN times, amazing. It seems that the process of hardening the heart includes ones own will and God’s (salvation is similar). The verses below show that God hardened Pharaoh’s heart as well.
Exodus 4:21
The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.
Exodus 7:3
But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my miraculous signs and wonders in Egypt.
Exodus 9:12
But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses.
Exodus 10:20
But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go.
Exodus 10:27
But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he was not willing to let them go.
Exodus 11:10
Moses and Aaron performed all these wonders before Pharaoh, but the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go out of his country.
Exodus 14:4
And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will pursue them. But I will gain glory for myself through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD." So the Israelites did this.
Exodus 14:8
The LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, so that he pursued the Israelites, who were marching out boldly.
Exodus 14:17
I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they will go in after them. And I will gain glory through Pharaoh and all his army, through his chariots and his horsemen.
Desmond Haye wrote:
“As I contemplated the reading for this week, I thought for a moment how far we have come in our understanding of salvation. Truly the “path of the just is like a shining light that shines more and more unto a perfect day.”
Right! It’s interesting. We have come a long way in understanding. At least from the days of knowing less then we did back then. And isn’t it going to be even more interesting as we continue to learn about salvation throughout the ceaseless ages…
Praise the Lord \o/\o/\o/
Comment on Jeff Carlson Chapter 6
BRI Document: Doctrine of Salvation; Whidden Chapter 7; and Romans 7
I see that Jeff comment was very short but impacted with the information from the BRI document in a nutshell. Along with Jeff, I liked the way the document brought out the vocabulary of salvation. Furthermore, I had to look at it a second time to make certain that I read what I read. It was impressive for me to read someone else’s comment that saw some of the same things that I did. I also agree that many of us take one of the vocabulary words that help to explain salvation, make it the one, and hang all of salvation upon it. These words and their explanations are as follows:
Justification: legal (court of law)
Reconciliation: human relations
Forgiveness: financial transactions
Adoption: family relationships
Sanctification: personal status – set apart
If this is what happens, I can understand why our understanding is meager and why our theology about salvation is distorted. At the same time, I believe that salvation may very well include a lot of subcategories in and under what the document expressed. Although I am in agreement with Jeff, I feel that it is up to us (students of the Bible) to continue the research and study and explore all areas of this broad subject so that we to can come up with our own model.
Comment on Earl Chapter 7
BRI Document: How Perfect Is “Perfect” Or Is Christian Perfection Possible?; Romans 7 and 8; Ellen White on Salvation by Whidden
In this comment Earl agrees with Heppenstall in that many Christians have a misunderstanding about the idea of perfection. I concur. Throughout the years, many Christians including and especially many Seventh-day Adventists have misconstrued the text that say “Be ye therefore perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect.” Not only that, many top it off by saying that “There is no sin going to heaven.” Whereas I agree, I feel as though when these phrases and texts are used, they need to be better clarified or explained so that the listeners will understand. I am convinced that when these things are said the person is really meaning that one must be sin-free. Although this is a good idea, the truth about the matter is that it is nearly if not impossible to do. I think the thing that we must do is accept Christ’s offer of salvation, totally surrender our lives to Him, and allow His righteousness make up for our deficiencies. Earl referring to sinless perfection said “My understanding of this is simply it is when we have a never ending appetite for Jesus and unquenchable thirst for his presence in our life it is when we never cease to take our eyes off of Jesus our Savior and Redeemer.” I agree with him but I would like to venture a little farther and add that it is when we allow Jesus to live and reign supreme in our lives, hearts, and minds and give us a distaste and hatred of sin. However, we differ when it comes to the idea that everyone has committed sin. My mind runs to the newborn babies that were killed. Also, there are some children that are still-born. In these cases, I believe that rule out some humans. I know that we are all born in sin and shaped in iniquity but even David’s own son was struck with illness and died. I am not aware of any sin that this child committed. It is possible that I have overlooked some things but I think that all of us should be more aware of using the word “all.”
Comment on Earl Chapter 7
BRI Document: How Perfect Is “Perfect” Or Is Christian Perfection Possible?; Romans 7 and 8; Ellen White on Salvation by Whidden
In this comment Earl agrees with Heppenstall in that many Christians have a misunderstanding about the idea of perfection. I concur. Throughout the years, many Christians including and especially many Seventh-day Adventists have misconstrued the text that say “Be ye therefore perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect.” Not only that, many top it off by saying that “There is no sin going to heaven.” Whereas I agree, I feel as though when these phrases and texts are used, they need to be better clarified or explained so that the listeners will understand. I am convinced that when these things are said the person is really meaning that one must be sin-free. Although this is a good idea, the truth about the matter is that it is nearly if not impossible to do. I think the thing that we must do is accept Christ’s offer of salvation, totally surrender our lives to Him, and allow His righteousness make up for our deficiencies. Earl referring to sinless perfection said “My understanding of this is simply it is when we have a never ending appetite for Jesus and unquenchable thirst for his presence in our life it is when we never cease to take our eyes off of Jesus our Savior and Redeemer.” I agree with him but I would like to venture a little farther and add that it is when we allow Jesus to live and reign supreme in our lives, hearts, and minds and give us a distaste and hatred of sin. However, we differ when it comes to the idea that everyone has committed sin. My mind runs to the newborn babies that were killed. Also, there are some children that are still-born. In these cases, I believe that rule out some humans. I know that we are all born in sin and shaped in iniquity but even David’s own son was struck with illness and died. I am not aware of any sin that this child committed. It is possible that I have overlooked some things but I think that all of us should be more aware of using the word “all.”
Comment on anonymous author chapter 8
My comment addresses the author of chapter 8. The student starts his comment with “This article discusses Rom 5:12-21 a controversial section in Scripture that needed an in depth analysis.” Whereas I appreciate the short and to the point comment on the document, I feel that the author avoided going into a more detailed conversation on his or her own idea about “in Adam/in Christ.” The author of this piece seems to quote a lot more rather than giving his or her own ideas. He or she quoted form the document that “he ‘could not pass on to his descendants what he did not posses, the result of his sin was death and sin for all members of the human race.’” I believe that this statement is partially true but also partially untrue. The reason being is that not everyone who is/were born will die, at least not physically. I agree that we have been robbed of the spiritual state that God had originally intended for us. Furthermore, I don’t believe that everyone who has ever been born committed sin. No, I am not talking about people who have lived to become of age. I am strictly talking about the newborn babies and early toddlers that were struck down dead and killed by many known and unknown reasons. In my estimation, this eliminates the idea that sin was to all members of the human race. I am aware that every person born is born in sin and our natural tendency is bent towards sin. However, and at the same time, I am not disputing that these little ones were not born with the propensity to sin. I am just saying that they didn’t live long enough to commit any.
Wayne Moten said...
Comment on a Comment of an Assignment
Raydal brings up some very interesting issues and concerns on his comment on Rodriguez’s paper. It seems that he and I have some similar questions and/or concerns about the affects of the sin brought on us through Adam’s disobedience. However, my concern is due to trying to understand how or why it is that we suffer the consequences by Adam’s disobedience but we don’t necessarily share the results of his obedience. From what I read, Adam’s sin infected us all with evil but his repentance had no affect on us at all. It seems that this is where I share a common concern with Raydal. I appreciate his openness in expressing his feelings and his questioning of Ellen White.
However, Raydal finds it hard to believe that if Adam had not accepted Christ that we all would be doomed. I believe that this is something that probably needs a little more indebt study. At the same time, I do believe that if Adam had rejected Christ then all would be lost. I say this with the belief that only Adam and Eve were the only two humans alive on earth when he transgressed. If God had laid Adam to rest when he sinned or if he had rejected the coming Christ, it seems that there wouldn’t have been a need for him to continue living, especially if he had no chance of inheriting eternal life. If God had destroyed Adam, where would we be? If He had destroyed Adam, we would not be. Adam wouldn’t have had any descendants. Therefore, I can see why if Adam had rejected Christ we would be doomed.
Wayne Moten
Hey Mika I think it is possible to live a "moral" life while at the same time not live an ethical life. When I say morals I think of things like self-control, sexual purity, clean mouth etc. When I say ethics i think of things like patience, fair buisness even when you dont make as much money, giving someone the benefit of the doubt, considering someone's feelings over your personal goals, not manipulating people even if you think you have a good reason etc. The way the Christian Church at large uses the doctrine of Hell to scare people into right living is un-ethical in my mind even thought the goal of helping people live holy lives is noble. We often do the same thing. I know a pastor who basically ripped off one of Rob Bell's sermons and didnt give him any credit. When someone called him on it afterward he mumbled something about how all pastors do it and turned around and walked away while the guy was still talking to him. What he did was not immoral but he did it in an unethical manner. Another illustration is Christian gay bashing. I think the Bible is pretty clear that living an active homosexual lifestyle is sin just like living a life of criticism. However, I really cant imagine Jesus saying "you stupid fag! God wants you in Hell!" Just doesnt match the Jesus I see in the NT. So the moral idea is right but the ethical means of presenting it are way off! This is not an idea I think is very unique. I was just trying to make the point that being "right" doesnt mean that you are being ethical - correct treatment of people - and Jesus made a pretty big deal about how we are supposed to treat people. We often neglect that so we can push our moral and doctrinal ideas. We need to have all of them - we as a SDAs just seem to struggle with ethics much more than morals or doctrine. Thanks for the clarification question...
Jeff Carlson
Reflection # 10
Hermeneutics is the science and art of deriving meaning. Its goal is to "rightly divide the word of truth." To achieve balance and avoid distortion is the objective.
Mrs. White strenuously protested against the abuse and misuse of her writings by some of the compilation makers of her own day. In 1901 she wrote that:
Many men take the testimonies the Lord has given, and apply them as they suppose they should be applied, picking out a sentence here and there, taking it from its proper connection, and applying it according to their idea. Thus poor souls become bewildered, when could they read in order all that has been given, they would see the true application, and would not become confused. Much that purports to be a message from Sister White, serves the purpose of misrepresenting Sister White, making her testify in favor of things that are not in accordance with her mind or judgment. . . . Please let Sister White bear her own message. 1SM, pp. 44, 45 (from Ms. 21, 1901).
The continuation of the practice
of using scripture and spirit of prophecy writings out of context to prove a point is evident today; however prayer and submission to the Holy Spirit will help the reader to receive the intended message from the Lord.
iiqipnuaThis comment is in reference Eric’s comment on the discussion in class about whether the devil partakes of God’s grace due to the fact that he is alive still
The deepest interest manifested among men in the decisions of earthly tribunals but faintly represents the interest evidenced in the heavenly courts when the names entered in the book of life come up in review before the Judge of all the earth. The divine Intercessor presents the plea that all who have overcome through faith in His blood be forgiven their transgressions, that they be restored to their Eden home, and crowned as joint heirs with Himself to "the first dominion." Micah 4:8.
Satan in his efforts to deceive and tempt our race had thought to frustrate the divine plan in man's creation; but Christ now asks that this plan be carried into effect as if man had never fallen. He asks for His people not only pardon and justification, full and complete, but a share in His glory and a seat upon His throne.
While Jesus is pleading for the subjects of His grace, Satan accuses them before God as transgressors. The great deceiver has sought to lead them into skepticism, to cause them to lose confidence in God, to separate themselves from His love, and to break His law. Now he points to the record of their lives, to the defects of character, the unlikeness to Christ, which has dishonored their Redeemer, to all the sins that he has tempted them to commit, and because of these he claims them as his subjects.
Jesus does not excuse their sins, but shows their penitence and faith, and, claiming for them forgiveness, He lifts His wounded hands before the Father and the holy angels, saying: I know them by name. I have graven them on the palms of My hands. "The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, Thou wilt not despise." Psalm 51:17.
And to the accuser of His people He declares: "The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?" Zechariah 3:2. Christ will clothe His faithful ones with His own righteousness, that He may present them to His Father "a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing." Ephesians 5:27. Their names stand enrolled in the book of life, and concerning them it is written: "They shall walk with Me in white: for they are worthy." Revelation 3:4. Great Controversy p485.
I don't think Satan fits into this picture of a partaker of God's grace... do you?
My comment is in regard to Wayne Moten (11/13/07):
I agree with what you have pointed out. Again, I think this is a case when the BRI gets too wrapped up in its petty Adventist disagreements. Thanks for articulating this error on their part.
Comment on:
Debbedo Brown
“Sin, the Human Condition and Salvation”
Very good comment, I agree with you God is always seeking for the lost in Luke chapter 14 and 15 Jesus thought many parable to show us not only the condition of the lost but the love of God for the sinner. The other side, is that the sinner have the choice by the free will to accept God gift of grace or reject it, nevertheless the love of God doesn’t change.
This is about Wayne's comment about Rom 8
Wayne,
I agree with you that death did not pass on to all because all sinned. At the end of the comment you mentioned reasons a person is justified. I would call those results rather than reasons.
This week I really enjoyed Daniel's submission especially the last section.Quoting Blazen he writes:
I like what Blazen said: “Justification grants assurance, but judgment guards it.” The power of choice plays a vital role in the keeping of the gift of salvation in the hands of the saved sinner. That’s the kind of a freedom we have inherited from Christ who freed us from the bondage of inability to choose. Even though we have already pledged our allegiance to Christ for loyalty and obedience, still we have the choice not to continue at our own expense. We choose to have Lord over us or not. I love the way this indivisible character of Christ as both Saviour and Lord/Master was described in the following:
He comes to us in love-in the light and strength of it He asks that we be loving.
He comes to us in mercy-in the joy and power of it He asks that we be merciful.
He comes to us in forgiveness-He asks that we be forgiving.
He comes to us in kindness-He asks that we be kind.
He comes to us in gentleness-He asks that we be gentle.
He comes to us in sacrifice-He asks that we live sacrificially.
He comes to us as our servant-He asks that we serve others.
"As Saviour and Lord, Christ judged sin at the cross, justifies the sinner by faith, and judges the justified by works."
Our reaction to humankind should certainly reflect Christ's attitutude. Our behavior to those with whom we come in contact must reflect the Savior they may never see.
Comments on Garfield's post:
In regards to the question raised at the end of your most interesting post about whether being saved by God meant that one is saved forever, and cannot be plucked from the hands of God, here are my views:
1. All those who have come to Christ, and abide in him will not be plucked away from Him by the devil.
2. Those who have embraced his life transforming grace are not immune to sin, and are saved so long as they walk in the light of his love.
3.Salvation is by grace through faith, and it is also a free gift.
It is my firm belief that anyone who abides in Christ will be sustained by him through life challenging moments.
Keep the faith.
Re: Tim's comment .."Reading the BRI article about Problems with Universal Legal Justification leaves me with some questions. If people are legally justified by God, why is it that they have to at the same time be transformed by the Spirit. Can God save a person and work with them through their struggles until they can give up whatever it is that they are struggling with?
I wanted to respond to Tim because I just read Jan Paulson article that addresses this same question. Here is just one excerpt that practically responds to this question:
"I believe we make an unfortunate mistake when we define justification so narrowly as to make it mean only a legal declaration of acquittal. I would suggest that passages of Scripture such as Romans 5:1-5 and Galatians 2:15-21 give a much more dynamic definition of the concept. When a man is justified, he receives at the same time both the imputed righteousness of Christ and the Holy Spirit into his heart. The gracious gift by which salvation is a reality contains both. Justification is by faith, without works (Rom 3:28). The gift of the Holy Spirit is similarly by faith, without the works of the law (Gal 3:2, 5). In Romans 5:1-5 these two are so linked that one cannot be present without the other.
Therefore, notwithstanding the theoretical priority we may give to justification, it constitutes one united experience with that of the renewal brought by the presence of the Holy Spirit. Restoring the relationship between God and man, which sin destroyed, is more than just an objective legal declaration. It is dynamic, and affects the complete life of the total person. In the judicial declaration of acquittal the creative power of God does something to a person. A miracle takes place. As the believer is acquitted, the creative powers of the Almighty are released in the life, changes occur, and a new creature emerges." ("Salvation by Faith" -BRI Article)
I think that there are many people who receive "instant victory" over some sins and others have to struggle through the "rehabilitation process" before they gain the victory. But when we look at sins as just habits or acts then it's easy to talk about getting over sins. However, when we consider that we are sinners by nature and our natures would not be changed until this mortal puts on immortality then we can see why we'll always need God's grace and also need to die daily.
I think that the BRI and 1888 camp are looking at sins in two different ways. Those who look at sins as just wrong acts often emphasize sanctification and those who see sin as nature tend to emphasize justification by faith.
Responding to Garfield’s question.
The answer to your question regarding whether a person who is saved forever and cannot be plucked from God’s hands is found In Rom. 11. There was a time when all Israel was in the hand of God however, some got released (broken off) from His hands because of disobedience. Nevertheless, those who remained obedient were not plucked out or became broken branches but remained in the Savior care. Paul warned the gentiles who replaced the disobedient Jews to be careful that pride and boasting do not cause them to be released from the Savior’s hand. Therefore, one can be released from the Savior’s firm through disobedience and one can remain in the Savior’s firm grip through obedience that is built on love.
Commenting on Jeffs Posting
I am in agreement with you that we should focus more on what Christ has done for man because this is the key for forming a loving relationship with Him, which will virtually give victory over sin. Be fore God gave the Israelites the law at Mount Sinai; He reminded them that He was the One who delivered them. Their contemplation on this fact was design that in love for God did for them they would keep His commandments. Thus as we ruminate upon what Christ has done for us at the cross such love will certainly lead us to love and be faithful to Him.
Commenting on Freddy’s Posting
I too am in agreement with you that Jesus death on the cross did not provide automatic justification for the human race irrespective if a person accepts it or not. It is true that Christ death on the cross-provided justification for everyone, however this can only be realized whenever a person accepts it through faith.
Commenting on Geraldine’s reflection
Thank you for your comments that the Bible as well as Mrs. White’s writing should be studied within their context. I agree that many in the Church have often misused the Spirit of prophecy to validate their own intentions. Some I believe twist the spirit of prophecy in this because they have not employed the proper hermeneutics in studying Mrs. White’s writings. Since her writings are inspired as the Bible, the same tools that are used to unpack the truths of the Bible should be used to unpack hers. By reasoning this way, I am not placing the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy on the same footing, because the Bible is the greater light and the Spirit of prophecy is the lesser light. However the employment of proper tools will produce correct interpretations for both the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy.
One of the things Martin Hanna’s Cosmic Christ of Scripture does for me is that it broadens my view of the Word of God, helps me appreciate nature more, and gives me opportunities to ask more questions before arriving at a reasonable hermeneutical conclusion. For this reason, I am deeply grateful.
As I continue to explore the richness of this fascinating work, oftentimes I wrestle with certain statements such as “Christ has not exchanged His divinity for humanity; but He had clothed His divinity in humanity.” (Top page 90) “Christ did nothing that human nature cannot do if it partakes of the divine nature.” (Page 94) To me, it seems that these two statements are or appear very contradictory. The divinity and humanity of Christ become obvious to mankind especially to seekers and believers like me. The first statement suggests that Jesus came with His divinity. He was covered with human skin, but it was the Creator of the universe that was here. In fact, Emanuel is God with us. Had not He come with such a power from above he would not have overcome temptations and sins. That allows me to say that only Christ can be sinless. There is no room for sinfulness either. Furthermore, there is no insanity in divinity. It makes it a little uneasy to understand Hebrews 4: 15 which say “For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.” Unlike us, He could not be with sin because He came into a world of sin with divinity, with no sinfulness. So, in Christ, both God and man were here. In other words, the personhood of God has never been without man in the son of man while on earth. Neither has the Son of man been without God. Apparent the possibility of sin was not even in Him. Furthermore, the Savior had not developed a relationship with His heavenly father. He had been having that intimacy all along. No wonder He could not sin! Notice the second statement will be discussed in the following posting. Dear reader, before I give you a break let me say this: There is no power in heaven and on earth that can keep us away from sin while having that sinful nature except when God and man become one.
See you soon!
Montes Estinphil
Romans Chapter 6, BRI-The Dynamics of Salvation and Whidden Chapter 7-Atonement
Romans chapter six can be divided into three sections: Dead to Sin, Alive to God and Slaves to Righteousness. Verse 23 concludes and summarized the chapter by saying that the penalty for sin is death, but there is a contrast, that is; the gift of God is eternal life. This gift is Jesus’ death and atonement. If a man pays this wage for his own sins, he dies and the chance to gain access to God and eternal life is lost. This leaves God with three alternatives: He could simply let each person die for his sins. He could, like an indulgent grandfather, overlook sin and grant mankind access to Him, all the while hoping for the best. As His holy justice demanded, He could allow the death of another to substitute for the payment of sin for the sinner who wanted access to Him and met the conditions. But this last choice, the one God chose, presented another problem. The substitute had to be a sinless human being, since God cannot die and only a man who lived a sinless life would qualify, because if the substitute sinned, his death would pay only for his own sins. In addition, this person had to be of such importance and stature in his own right that his vicarious death to pay for other men's sins would never have to be repeated. Once this substitute gave his life, it would apply to all mankind for all time.
For salvation to be realized by an individual he/she must accept the following: Man stands condemned before God. Man is alienated from our true self and from one another. Man is alienated from God the creator. Thus God took the initiative to make restoration available, man must then respond to God’s love and grace in order to be saved.
Rudolph Sterling
This comment is in reference to the following statement made by Marcus: "Legal universal justification is a ridiculous notion and for the life of me I can’t figure out how intelligent people (scholars) come up with some of the concepts that they do."
Perhaps some of the "scholars" have a head knowledge but lack a heart knowledge, as with Nicodemus in the Bible.
Many will be saved who have no knowledge of the word justification. They have just experienced the process through faith in Jesus' shed blood.
Andy wrote: Faith can also be viewed as obedience... it is obedience to a call. It is by accepting the obligation to live a life of discipleship that faith becomes obedience.
Hi Andy,
I appreciate your comments on Paulsen’s “Salvation by Faith.” I wondered though, was Paulsen’s sermon clear cut to you about the differences between faith and obedience. Or was the language just a bit ethereal?
Is there a difference between the two? I saw his saying that they are the same thing.
I’d like to hear your response to this before I share thoughts, but because this blog is a little challenging to navigate, let me go ahead and share my thought in being not completely settled on the matter.
The difference is in what that obedience garnered. As if obedience can garner anything – Paul says that that was the Israelites bad (Rom 11:28-32). If salvation is based on Christ’s merits alone, then why is there a need from my obedience? I mean, after all, nothing is based on my works, but upon my obedience (and that seems like works).
Dear reader,
To fully understand this idea that runs throughout this posting, you need to have read the previous one. So, if you haven’t done that then take a quick look.
Welcome back to part II. “Christ did nothing that human nature may not do if it partakes of the divine nature” (page 94). The concern of part one is that Christ came clothed with divinity while we all came here only with humanity and yet we are expected to do everything Christ has done if not more. Jesus is 100% God and 100% man. On one hand, the divinity has no limitations except the restriction He has placed on Himself in giving the freedom of choice to intelligent human beings. On the other hand, His humanity has so much lack that makes His level of limitation even higher. He had to constantly, earnestly, and intentionally seek the presence of divinity. Now, one can begin to understand how difficult it would have been if Jesus had chosen to go ahead with His own plan without the satisfactory input of God. There is power when divinity and humanity join hands, hearts, and mind together. In order to bring fruit, there must be a connection between the vine and the branches. Jesus, as God, says “without Me you can nothing”. If we abide in Christ nothing will be impossible for us to do. Why do we accomplish so little? It was August 2003 I was in Ottawa in Canada when the power went out. Thursday came with no power; Friday no power! Saturday came with no electricity. A carpenter was to work without amplified tools and he experienced so many struggles. His daughter, Judie who was five at the time said “dad, why don’t you wait for the power? You can do much more with power.” Whenever God’s Power gets to enter into human’s efforts there is an explosion of fruits of love, peace, joy, patience, understanding, and a contagious, earnest, and burning desire to impart in order to impact. A real person reaches out to divinity as well as humanity as longs as life lasts in the cosmos.
Dear Jesus,
Let’s make a deal. We have a fair amount of humanity. If you only give us the divinity you had with you on earth, with the technology we have in the global village today, we promise, we will do more than you did while being 100% human. At least, give us the power that poured out on the day of Pentecost. Otherwise humanity will overcome divinity and we will not be wise.
Thank you for your willingness to clothe us with your divinity. Just like we always wear clothes to go everywhere we will always have you on from this time forth and forever more.
Montes Estinphil
Comment on Debbedo Brown
Romans 9; Ellen White on Salvation; BRI Document: Some Theological Considerations of Perfection
I am under the conviction that my friend, Debbedo, has been really studying. I agree with his comment that just because God has foreknowledge it doesn’t mean that it is His divine will for the things to happen. Using Esau and Jacob was an excellent idea in providing examples for his points. Also, I would like to venture a little farther and mention Pharoah (Armenthotep) when God used Moses and Aaron to bring the plagues upon the land of Egypt. Although God knew that Pharoah would become bitter and hardened by the plagues, He (God) had hoped that Pharoah would be saved. Whereas it is true that God omniscient, I believe that His love in many instances prohibits Him from interfering with mankind’s free choice. Indeed, if God was to intervene in every situation on every occasion and cause people to do His bidding, there will be no such thing as a free choice (a choice that mankind makes own their own) and people will only be mere automatons. I also believe that although God knows the future that people have the ability to turn their lives around. The idea of predestination has been contaminated with the belief that whoever is lost that it was predetermined. This is saying that salvation was meant for some but not for others. The Bible tells us that Christ came to seek and save those who were lost. In essence, He came to save to whole world. However, not everyone will accept His gift of salvation. If someone is lost, it is because of his or her own choosing. Just like Satan, people have come to the point where they blame God for the decisions that they or someone else make. God will not, at least I don’t believe that He will, pull someone into heaven by the hand while he or she is kicking and screaming. It is possible that the person will be most miserable there. Therefore, God has made us free moral agents giving us the right to choose. Whatever choice a person makes, he or she must be willing to reap the rewards of his or her decision.
Mika,
Thanks for your post and for your comments on whidden’s take on E.G white and salvation.
I see and feel your struggle with Paul position on the issue of salvation and the concept of God’s choosing who would be saved. I think it might be difficult to categorized Paul theology into Armenians or Calvinism. Notice that Paul himself is trying to find a balanced way of expressing what he is struggling with. Paul is in no way dogmatic and I think we too should not be dogmatic.
Rudolph Sterling
Radal,
Good job, you have tackled the issues raised in the chapter in whiodden’s book “Adam and the Human race” It does seem as if whatever choice Adam made would have affected us but how and to what extent we do not know. If Adam had rejected Jesus as savior may not have affected my salvation because salvation is not offered through Adam although death come because of him. Salvation is through promised to me when Adam sin not after he accepted Christ.
Rudolph Sterling
On the complexity of my model, note that it is not my model which says that there are past, present, and future dimensions of salvation. Scripture says so. What I am suggesting is that we need a model that will help us come to grips with the complexity of the biblical data. Such a model must be wholistic. However, it is important to point out that it is not the model that produces the complexity. Rather, the model is an attempt to grasp the complexity.
So with regard to Pastor Paul Peno, he is wrestling, as we all are, with the complexity of the biblical data. He has not so much proposed a model as he has simply stated what the Bible teaches. There is a sense in which we are forgiven provisionally as a race; and there is a sense in which we are forgiven individually by faith. In addition to this, the Bible teaches that there is a sense in which justification is yet future at the judgment.
I don’t believe that any one will discover a perfect single model to explain justification and salvation. Actually, justification and salvation are in themselves two of the many biblical models which describe God’s work in redemption, another model. So when I call for a bigger wholistic model, I am simply calling for us to embrace all the biblical models of salvation.
Martin Hanna.
MATENA KEFA
ROMANS CHAPTER 5
NEW LIFE IN GOD'S GRACE:
Paul, after taking time from chapter one all the way up to chapter five to make a connection of what he as been labouring to have his listers know.Now Paul summarizes this new experience of justification through faith in christ and points us to the realities that flow from it.The first of the new realities that flow from justification is peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.The Hebrew concept of peace that paul grew up with was much more wholistic than our concept of the term.Peace reffered to well being and wholeness in its broadest sense.Once we have been justified, there is no longer any thought of God's wrath.Once we become acquiainted with God's love and His action for us,we live at peace,secure in anew relationship of total wellbeing in harmony with Him.Yet this is not all.We have also gained access into grace.What is more,we now stand on that grace.It is as if grace is a new air that we breath or a new world on which we stand.we live in a new atmosphere, anew place.To be a christian is to breathe the atmosphere of grace, secure in God's acceptance.Yet a new stance to the future flows from justification as well.The stance is characterized by hope.Paul here says that we boast in the hope of the Glory of god.Boasting in hope is a confidence that faces the future unafraid.Paul repeatedly uses the word boast three times,where he sayswe boast in hope,we boast in sufferings and we boast in God.The three together show the kind of confidence and assurance that defines the christian life.Because we have confidence in God,we also have confidence in the future and live in hope.What does it mean to boast in suffering?Paul's emphasis is on the way that hope transcends everything else in life,even suffering.Christians can boast in suffering because they boast in God and know that the future is at His hands.Not even suffering can deter such hope and confidence.Paul's summary of the christian experience by pointing out that the holy spirit, God as poured out his love into our hearts, where He points to us that the grace,peace faith and righteousness are metaphors and picture words he uses that open the window of how God loves us.
fy of life when we were baptized in union with christ,we now live in anew atmosphere of union with him, and we share in the certainty of being united with Him in the resurrection as well.
My comment is in regard to Tim (week 12):
I like your analysis of Romans 11. I wonder how Paul’s view of an “invisible remnant” would correlate with Jon Paulien’s idea of the invisible remnant being comprised of Jews, Muslims and Christians.
Dale,
Thanks for your insights on the salvation issue identifying that we all struggle with sin and are in need of salvation. I like your statement that salvation is a basic need; it certainly caused me to do some thinking. With regard to your question on what else do we need to do if we are saved by faith alone? Well, exercising faith is doing something. We must accept the salvation offered in order for it to be effective.
Rudolph Sterling
Walter,
Your post on Romans 2 is very informative. I appreciate your story and your emphases on love.
I agree that doctrine without love if not salvific, we should not negate doctrine or teaching but people need to know that they are truly loved and that we are genuinely concern for them both spiritually and emotionally. I must say this though, people will always be uncomfortable when there doctrinal comfort zone is disturbed, but with a little tact seasoned with love dialog can be done.
Rudolph Sterling
Jamie,
Your Week 8 Submission has some very good points. I especially share your passion for the priceless gift of salvation and abhor the term cheap grace. Some have the tendency to mix or confuse free with cheap. Conventional secular socio-economic society value things by price tag; so that the more expensive it is the better it is, thus, if it is inexpensive it must be inferior. There is a tendency to treat the free gift of salvation the same way. But salvation is not free because it is cheap, but rather it is free because no one would be able to pay the full cost.
Rudolph Sterling
Wayne,
In response to your post on Ellen White on Salvation, Chpt.9; Romans 9; and BRI Document, “Justification by Faith and Judgment According to Works”
I must say good job, raised some very important questions. It is very important to note that works plays a vital part in our salvation experience for works is the material that is measured (we are judged by our works). The key to understanding the work faith relationship is to be able to put them in order. Which comes first faith or works? I believe we are first saved by what Jesus has done for us, we must then accept it by faith. Faith in itself is an action word and when faith is exercised it is manifested in behavior or works. Works as I understand it are an outgrowth of faith.
Rudolph Sterling
Comments on Andy's Post:
I read with interest your post on Dr. Reid's article. I must say i found it interesting and thought provoking. I , like you believe that we should engage in relentless pursuit for others in love.This include even those who have hurt us. Love should be the motivating factor in all we say and do in this Christian walk. For "God so loved that he gave his only begotten son..." (Jh. 3:16).
It is because of the love of God why we are spared from many attacks by the enemy.
I am thankful that the love of Christ prevails!
Garfield,
Thanks for your post on Chapter 6 of Romans. You have great insights. Let me agree with you that the bill has been paid, that is the bill for our salvation. But this raises a question in my mind and that is, who got the check and why? Why is Christ sacrifice for sin seen as a payment of a debt owed to someone or something?
Not only does some SDA’s not understand concept of salvation is a free gift from God I get the feeling that some would prefer to work for it, and some attempts to do so. They feel if they work for it is more valuable. They seem to suffer from what I call “the anything free or cheap is inferior syndrome” therefore not only do they work but they work hard. As far as I understands it salvation is neither free nor cheap, it does not cost me anything simply because it is a gift. It is oxymoronic to pay for a gift.
Rudolph Sterling
Dale Baker
Response to Andy Hunte’s comments on Nov 26 2007
I like the metaphor that Andy used to describe the link between sin and death. It really made it clear that sin always has a company, death, which follows it. I also like the point that he made that Adam embraced this sin, as a result we reap the result of his sins. However, it is refreshing to note that we are not left in our sins to suffer the inevitable consequence, death. Rather Christ has redeemed us by His present blood so that we can experience life and have it more abundantly. We would all be in misery if today we did not have such assurance that Christ has paid the inevitable result of death. Thus as Paul declare in Rom. 5:20 that where sin abound grace much more abound. It is grace that guarantees our salvation.
Azahel,
This is a response to your comment on the BRI article title, “"The Dynamics of Salvation."
Good insights and thought provoking questions. It is true that it is not easy to visualize justification, sanctification and glorification in a past, present, and future in the same time. I think it would be helpful to look at the whole salvation sequence in the “already and not yet motif” The problem is that we have look at salvation as a sequence for so long that it is difficult to accept it instantaneously. Justification, sanctification and glorification is already done on our behalf but we have not yet fully experienced it because we are still living in this world. The goal of salvation is to extricate us from this life, the extrication process is still happening, but promise of extrication is sure; therefore, it can be enjoyed as already happened.
Rudolph Sterling
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