Comments on Dr. Hanna's lecturer on "Israel in Romans 9-11" I have been reflecting on Dr. Hanna's presentation on Israel in Romans and would love to share the following: Firstly,in my humble reflection i believe that Israel in the texts he mentioned has to do with national Israel in one sense, and spiritual Israel in another.So we could safely say not all of national Israel will be apart of Spiritual Israel.This seems to be line of reasoning that Paul is forwarding in chapter 9. We can agree that Paul in this book of Romans is making a case regarding the universal nature of sin, and God's universal plan to save all humanity. As the apostle builds his case, he shows how national Israel were given the mandate to "bear the oracles of truth to the nations." This duty they rejected,and because of this God turned to the Gentiles. If we follow this trend we can clearly see that the apostle in chapter 9 and onwards is sorrowing for the Jews as a people. Paul is also showing that Israel is not limited to the nation of Israel (9:1-5), but God has a people, even the Gentiles who are also heirs of salvation.
Secondly, It appears from the context that not all Spiritual Israel is apart of national Israel. In chapter 10:19, i am baffled by Paul's statement that Israel(national) will be provoked by them that are "no people." I hear suggest that the "no people" mentioned in this text is referring to the Gentiles , who are not apart of national israel.This could also be seen as Spiritual Israel, who will be called out from among His people.
I believe firmly that a proper understanding of how Israel is used in these passage is crucial for how we view who constitute spiritual as well as national Israel. So, where do we go from here? How should we really view Israel in this interesting book of Romans? Should we view national Israel as apart of spiritual Israel or not? I wonder.
“I want more faith too! Romans 10:17 is one of my favorite verses. It amazes me how simple it is to know Jesus and yet how difficult it is for us to stay in the word of God. We’re constantly bombarded with distractions of all sorts, but praise God, he is willing and able to save to the uttermost, all who come to Him, through His Son Jesus Christ.”
I am right there with you on being distracted. Lately I have not been getting into the word because of school and life getting in the way. Now of course teachers could give us less busy work for the sake of doing something yet I wonder if it was really important to me I think I would still find time. Shame on me for falling into the same trap as the majority of pastors!
I really enjoyed reading your blog this week. It really struck me when you said, “If God saved me without my input then he knocked the door down instead of stand[ing] at the door... and now [he] becomes a robber instead. The only thing that we can give to God that he didn’t give us in the first place is our choice to love him or not. Love cannot be forced. And it’s really foolish to say that God loves himself through me. I must do the loving.” I have never thought of Calvinism in that imagery before. That if we have no choice God is knocking down doors instead of waiting next to them. I am sure though that a Calvinist would argue God is not a thief if he already owns us in a sense since he is our Creator.
Ray wrote: “But even if I cannot choose to follow God I can choose to give God my choice. In other words, I can surrender my will to God. If God does everything for me then where does my choice come into the picture?” I think that it is a false assumption to think that since God created man and give him life that anything that man does has to be ultimately attributed to God. This would means that God created evil!”
It seems as if this type of comment is yet more support for the “doctrine of salvation” to stay in the MDiv requirements. But beyond that – I think that I can understand what you are saying and the difficulty in saying “All-God” or some combination of God and choice.
Could it be that the answer is yes to what you are saying. That choice “of faith” is my/your input but the good works worked in/through you could not be done less it be gifted from God? And so I think that absolutely, there has to be a choice – and ultimately that choice could never have been - less it was God given.
But God creating evil – wow! I’m not sure about that? I’m not saying that the reasoning isn’t there – it just doesn’t “feel” right to say that. And so my defensive side thinks that the “choice” (hannah’s “condition”) was made for God by you/me and then God finishes the work in us. However, if I “choose” to not accept the gift of God, then God is at an impass to act in favour for my salvation. And if this is true – then my choice has become outside of the will of God and is not credited to God, so God is not responsible for my evil.
At the same time – God loves me so much that He continues to look for opportunities here and there to reach me. Even while I am acting on my own, He is constantly protecting me because he is not slack and wants me to “choose salvation.
Or – it could be that I’m also struggling with this salvation thing “meritorious” thing to the point of forcing a wishful position.
A response to Geraldine Reflection Paper V Geraldine O'Neal said... My question is why do we as a church tend to shy away from the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, a very necessary part of the Christian experience? It’s almost as if this relates only to “Pentecostal” faith not Adventist. Good question Geraldine, I share your concern. I do think one reason SDA’s shy away from embracing the whole concept of the baptism of the Holy Spirit is because this baptism is associated with speaking in tongues. Most Pentecostals claim that evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit is manifested by the recipient’s ability to speak in tongue. I think the SDA theology on spiritual gift needs to be further developed to include all that the Holy Spirit cad accomplish in the life of a believer. I believe our current understanding and embracement of this gift is limiting the work of the Holy Spirit.
A response to Geoffrey ... Chapter 7 on Ellen White on Salvation Thanks for expressing your thoughts. I agree that the issues with are struggling with seems to present never ending circular arguments. I appreciate your insights on the salvation issue relating to Ellen white. Yes the debates are often over metaphors and I will add forms as oppose to meaning. I do think we need to be able to separate the form from the meaning but the masses are not aware of this; therefore we may need to educate. I disagree with you that the objective subjective salvation debate is ridiculous. There are fundamental implications to accepting one view without consideration to the other. For example if I am saved through objective salvation only I do not need to be obedient to God’s laws because I am saved regardless.
Good insights and good question. It is sobering to think that the same power we are admonished by scriptures to be subjected to will one day put us as SDA’s in a position to disobey them. You asked ...” how do we know when a power is not of God? You rightly answered that it becomes even more complex, when all the issues involved are bombarding us. When Israel was taken to Babylon that was a punishment from God on Israel and although they were forced by the punisher, (who was ordained by God) to worship Idols they were still expected to be obedient to God’s Laws.
A response to Ray Edwards: “Justification by Faith and Judgment According to Works” by Ivan T. Blazen, Romans 12 -Ellen White On Salvation, Chapter 13.
I appreciate your struggle in dealing with the issue of will in the salvation process. In trying to understand free will, free choice one must not lose sight of the fact that God is sovereign. Every decision that is made is made because He allows it to be made. Paul puts it best in acts 17 by saying “in Him we live and move and have our being”. God provided salvation for man but gives man the opportunity and ability to make a choice. On the issue of autonomy and the creation of Evil; ultimately one will have to lay the creation of evil at God’s feet, because if not, it allows for another creator in the universe.
Hey Heather that was a great question about obedience to governments. The way I see it is similar to the military. In the military you receive respect not by earning it but because of your rank. My friend Zach has never "really" served a day in the military but when he goes to the recruter's office the recruter - who has actualy seen active duty - calls him "sir" because he has a higher rank. At the same time the military holds soldiers accountable for their actions in response to those in command. You can be held accountable and punished for something you did "just following orders" like in Germany in the Second World War. I think that is the tension here. God expects us to give respect to authorities whether or not they "deserve" it. That is hard for us to undersatnd in our "enlightened" culture but I think its pretty clearly the proper understanding of this passage. However, God doesnt expect us to mindlessly follow every command of that authority as evidenced by the commendation of Christians who wouldnt light incense to the Caesar. I guess there is a difference between not obeying and disrespect.
Jeff Carlson said (comment #10): "I’m glad I am a Seventh-day Adventist and I’m 'proud' of our theological understanding of the Bible. However we need to remember that just like the Jews in Paul’s time we need justified no matter how much better we understand reality than those around us – maybe even more!"
Jeff, you make me proud to be a Seventh-day Adventist. Thank you.
Geoffrey Blake said, "It is amazing that Paul uses the word “mystery” here in talking about the proclamation of Jesus Christ...From a general observation of Christianity—it still seems as if much of the “mystery” that he dealt with, we are still trying to figure out! And maybe that’s okay."
I really appreciated your comment man. We spend so much time trying to "figure out" the gospel that we forget to revel in the grandness of it all! Was Christ pre-fall or post-fall? Who freakin cares if we miss the point of the whole thing that He actually came and lived in our skin...however He did it! What an amazing mystery. Understanding is important dont get me wrong but I dont think we are in danger of doing too little of that. We are in danger, it seems, of analyzing the beauty right out of the whole thing. I think we focus on the answer so much we miss the beauty in the mystery and the journey!
Jeff Carlson wrote: The ideas of Romans 13 really have nothing to do at all with anything here so I’m not going to try to make them fit. However, there is one homiletically twisted usage of a verse in this chapter that caught my eye: The verse that talks about our salvation being closer than it was before. I think that rather than fighting about how far salvation is from lost people we should focus on how close it is…closer than they even know! That makes me want to tell them!
Enjoyed Jeff post and his "paper tigers" comment. It's really hard to believe the views some people hold considering they are reading the same Bible that you do. Even though we see things in different ways because of nurture and nature still some things should just be basic and fundamental.
I wanted to respond to Jess where he said he saw no connection between his discussion and Romans 13. I want to challenge him on that apparent disconnect because I think that they are very much connected. (Although I understand the way in which he was 'speaking'--they are two different TOPICS.)
In Romans 13 Paul is speaking abut the consequences of what we believe about salvation, i.e. how we live, so there is a connection. :)
We must not only have it right but live it right. As SDAdventist we are generally better at the former than the latter.
"As far as I understands it salvation is neither free nor cheap, it does not cost me anything simply because it is a gift. It is oxymoronic to pay for a gift. Other think they are only worthy of salvation after they have attained perfection (sinlessness) if we could attain perfection (sinless) the we could die for our own sin, we die anyway, but our death is not sufficient to atone for sin because atonement requires a perfect, spotless sacrifice, offered in just the right way. Jesus, the one perfect God-man, came to offer the pure, complete and everlasting sacrifice to remove, atone, and make eternal payment for our sin."
I believe in your statement 100% and I think you have pounded the nail right on its head. The only way humans can be saved by believing and accepting the Christ's offered free gift of salvation.
Daniel ocampo commenting on Mika's post Mika wrote: "Christ’s meritorious works are certainly the keys to victory for the renewed mind, but the renewed mind + it’s consequence-ing is not salvation. What goes on in the believer is good, but not good enough!
But please don’t let it stop here. Oh yeah – and about the “conditional” faith that brings about works. Well, please understand that salvation was made universally “in Christ” is null unless the subjective condition of faith is fulfilled in the person that is granted salvation."
This was written well enough for me to say that any obedience or good works outside a relationship with Christ is nothing, no value. Our work in Christ or not doesn't real merit for salvation. But any good work done in Christ is a showcase of what Christ through the Holy Spirit does in us. This is the renewing of our minds.
I really liked your week 13 blog. You wrote, “There will be no “independent ministries” section in Heaven. And there will be no “regional” section in Heaven! I hope that does not get interpreted in a wrong way but I just really have a burden for unity in our Church and hope we are able to grow together rather than keep splitting off into our own little groups and missing the opportunity to grow as more mature Christians and more mature people in general.” I could not agree more since we have over 30,000 Christian denomination. It seems that our churches are more defined by how they are different rather than what we share. We even go to the extent to call one another Babylon or the Beast.
jjwalper said... I agree with you Tim, I want more faith too! Romans 10:17 is one of my favorite verses. It amazes me how simple it is to know Jesus and yet how difficult it is for us to stay in the word of God. We’re constantly bombarded with distractions of all sorts, but praise God, he is willing and able to save to the uttermost, all who come to Him, through His Son Jesus Christ. I will pray for you once I’m done typing these responses. Please pray for me as well. Man I agree with you again in your assessment that we need to add the importance of Bible study in growing our faith. May God ground us in His Word...may we not get lost in the many debates and arguments. God bless you brother!
jjwalper said... Ray I liked how you explained that we need a larger model of salvation because there are multiple models that Paul uses to communicate what Jesus has done for us…justification, reconciliation, sanctification, salvation history and the apocalyptic models…I can appreciate a larger model, as long as it is biblical, but my concern is that sometimes a wholistic, larger model is the last thing we need to adopt. Sometimes it represents an antagonistic effort to adopt false doctrine. May God guide us by His Holy Spirit as we endeavor to maintain purity of doctrine in these last days. As for the question on the security of the universe after the final judgment….whew! that’s a deep question man. In my limited understanding, our living in the full presence of God will remove any desire whatsoever for sin. Blessings!
Argenis this is a response to your blog entry on Dr. Rodriguez BRI article on the “in Adam/in Christ” subject. This entire debate as to whether or not BRI is right or 1888 is right will probably go on until the end, but I’ll give it a shot as to my understanding of it, and you can respond if you like. It’s clear that Adam sinned and thus brought sin into the human race…in addition to this, it is clear that Jesus did not sin and that He offered Himself up as a perfect sin offering on Calvary for our sins. He took our place and became a curse so that we would be blessed. I imagine we agree on all of these. My question lies in the area of legal justification. I tend to lean in the direction of 1888 and here is why. If we look at the sanctuary, most notably the Ark of the Covenant, we see a small picture of the entire Plan of Redemption. Inside the ark there is the bowl of manna, the rod of Aaron, and the tablets of stone in the 10 commandments….the lid sitting above these is called the mercy seat…above the mercy seat are the two angels with their wings folded in towards each other, covering the mercy seat…their faces looking down towards the mercy seat. I believe this is where we get a picture of the entire plan of salvation. Here it goes…when heaven looks down as do the angels on the lid of the Ark, what do they see? They see that God has given man His law, but they continually break it (10 commandments), they see that God provides man with his daily bread, but then man complains at this providence (bowl of manna), they see how God provides leaders for His people, but we see man questioning God’s ability to designate leaders correctly (rod of Aaron)…As heaven looks down and sees all of this going on, what does God do? He sends the Lamb of God, Jesus Christ to be our sin offering. Jesus blood is spread over the mercy seat and now what does heaven see when they look down at mankind? They see that Jesus shed His blood for the entire human race. Because His blood is over the mercy seat…now I believe that Matthew 24’s call that the end will be just as Noah’s day includes a call to enter into an Ark. Only instead of Noah’s Ark, God is calling the world to enter into the Ark of the Covenant. It is a covenant that God has made with His own Son, Jesus. So it seems to indicate that not only did Jesus shed His blood for the entire world, but most notably for those who enter into His covenant between Him and God the Father. I believe this is essentially what 1888 is teaching…on the other hand I’ve yet to hear a salvation model from BRI independent of bashing 1888. Have a blessed break!
Argenis this is a response to your blog entry on Dr. Rodriguez BRI article on the “in Adam/in Christ” subject. This entire debate as to whether or not BRI is right or 1888 is right will probably go on until the end, but I’ll give it a shot as to my understanding of it, and you can respond if you like. It’s clear that Adam sinned and thus brought sin into the human race…in addition to this, it is clear that Jesus did not sin and that He offered Himself up as a perfect sin offering on Calvary for our sins. He took our place and became a curse so that we would be blessed. I imagine we agree on all of these. My question lies in the area of legal justification. I tend to lean in the direction of 1888 and here is why. If we look at the sanctuary, most notably the Ark of the Covenant, we see a small picture of the entire Plan of Redemption. Inside the ark there is the bowl of manna, the rod of Aaron, and the tablets of stone in the 10 commandments….the lid sitting above these is called the mercy seat…above the mercy seat are the two angels with their wings folded in towards each other, covering the mercy seat…their faces looking down towards the mercy seat. I believe this is where we get a picture of the entire plan of salvation. Here it goes…when heaven looks down as do the angels on the lid of the Ark, what do they see? They see that God has given man His law, but they continually break it (10 commandments), they see that God provides man with his daily bread, but then man complains at this providence (bowl of manna), they see how God provides leaders for His people, but we see man questioning God’s ability to designate leaders correctly (rod of Aaron)…As heaven looks down and sees all of this going on, what does God do? He sends the Lamb of God, Jesus Christ to be our sin offering. Jesus blood is spread over the mercy seat and now what does heaven see when they look down at mankind? They see that Jesus shed His blood for the entire human race. Because His blood is over the mercy seat…now I believe that Matthew 24’s call that the end will be just as Noah’s day includes a call to enter into an Ark. Only instead of Noah’s Ark, God is calling the world to enter into the Ark of the Covenant. It is a covenant that God has made with His own Son, Jesus. So it seems to indicate that not only did Jesus shed His blood for the entire world, but most notably for those who enter into His covenant between Him and God the Father. I believe this is essentially what 1888 is teaching…on the other hand I’ve yet to hear a salvation model from BRI independent of bashing 1888. Have a blessed break!
Hey Heather, Yeah…I know what you mean about Paul’s counsel in Romans 13. This has been a struggle for me to understand as well. Hitler is a good example but I can think of some others in more recent history. It’s texts like this that really challenge me, but I’m able to rest in the idea that God will sort it all out in the end. In the meantime I half to accept that this is His inspired Word…the only way I can handle the insane taxation in our country…and the blind ambition of globalists is to remember that God told us before hand that it would be like this. It has been a struggle to reconcile the horrific atrocities of Hitler, Stalin, and other mass murderers who have been in power to the idea that God allowed them to be there. My attempt to make it work in my mind includes the notion that there are a lot of things that are worse than death. I can’t wait for God to exercise His judgment…there are just so many injustices at the hands of civil leaders…the violence…the absolute depravity of the human existence…greed is rampant…but it’s encouraging to remember that God is not only going to bring it to a close soon, but that He also holds the keys to death. My one year as a hospital chaplain confronted me with how small we really are…how mortal we are…how humble Jesus became. This life is but a blink…so we can rest in peace as the tyrannical tyrants build their castles in the sand down here…in the wastelands of earth’s twilight…they can have it.
A Response to Rudolph Sterling’s comments on Romans 15… I appreciated your comments on Romans 15 and the importance that we are not to be people pleasers, but humble unselfish workers for Christ’s sake. If we had more concern for the well-being of each other, not only in our faith, but also in our everyday lives, we would have such a church that resembled the early church. As for the tendency that some people have in “trying to work their way to salvation”…I think they want to work for it because they don’t want to arrive at the humble conclusion that they are completely “helpless” and “incapable” of helping themselves…realizing instead that they must humble themselves and accept that Jesus alone can save them. They might believe in Jesus, but to really enter into the heart of Jesus, and have Him do the same in our own…requires a humble surrender and realization of our “helpless” condition. We must arrive at the place where we’re ok with totally depending on Him for everything. We live in the midst of a self-dependent 21st century world that is so proud of being independent…the idea of not being able to “do” for ourselves…flies completely in the face of almost everything we interact with in our culture. May God help us as we endeavor to be in the world but not of it.
Response to Jeff Carlson comment #10…We are way too proud of ourselves as SDA...it’s a sobering reminder for me to consider what am I doing even now as a Seminarian in dispensing the grace of God in accordance to the light that I have been entrusted with. It reminds me of the Pharisees in the NT where they say to Jesus, “We are sons of Abraham, we have never been slaves”…I think more than ever we need to preach Jesus Christ and Him crucified. This is the only way that we as Adventists will ever come out of our lukewarm funk. It’s only by spending that time with Him will we grow to hate sin and to love others. Will we ever reach perfection in character? If we do…we’ll never know it…but if God wants to not only impute His righteousness, but also impart it to people, then that’s up to Him. I’ve pretty much given up on the idea of figuring out the concept of perfection. What I do understand is that I am to focus my heart…my attention on Jesus…and as I do I will become more like Him. But the entire time He’s the one that really does all the work…I only cooperate. While I would never preach perfection…I think we are to “perfect” our character by receiving Jesus and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. May God help us to live according to the light we know…not only to receive salvation, but that we may glorify God in a greater way.
This comment is on Tim’s reflection On the law and chapter7 Great writings by Paul in Romans 7 Verses 12 and 13 explain that the law itself is holy and just and good. How can that be? Did the law, which is good, cause our doom? No! Sin used what was good to bring about our own condemnation in order that we may see how terrible sin really is. Indeed - the law itself is holy and right and good. But, we cannot keep the law of our own selves. By sin we are tempted to break the law but thanks be to Jesus, in verse 6: But now we are delivered from the law, for we died with Christ, and we are no longer captive to its power. We now serve God through and by the Spirit! We are indeed free!
Comment on Heather Barbian Romans 12 How can we overcome evil when we know that doing good is heaping burning coals on their head? This is a very good question. However I the Paul’s emphases is on doing good rather than exacting evil for evil. I also don’t think the term “heaping burning coals on their head” is a term for revenge nor is it a negative result on the part on the recipient. I think what Paul means is this; if we return good to those who give us evil it will awaken their consciousness and their guilt. They will see that their evil did not have the desired effect on us. They will also see the love of God which will afford them an occasion to think and possible change their behavior.
Response Luke’s post on: Whidden’s section on perfection. Thanks for your analyses of this chapter and on the whole issue of perfection. I was raised in a similar situation where a particular elder would preach perfection and sinless living. I also agree with you that trying to be perfect if very frustration. The frustration we one realized that he/she continues to sin no matter how hard they try not to. I am not saying that we should not try our best to live right but this must be done in dependence on God who knows that we humans lack the capacity to be sinless. In fact as long as we have this nature we will remain sinful until Christ transforms us at His coming. In the mean time we should cultivate a meaningful growing relationship with Christ.
Response to jjwalper: Romans 14 The Law of Liberty”
Thanks for your post. You are making some good points and I appreciate your emphases on what is important as oppose to dabbling in the abstract over and over again. However one must bear in mind that we are all not at the same level in our thinking; therefore what may not seem important to one person or a group may have eternal significance to another. Whereas I agree that we should be careful not to destroy the faith of those who are weak it is also important that the learn and deal with some of the difficult issues so that they can grow and become strong. Some time we seem to act as if the week should remain week for ever. I think the important thing is to find a balance and take things in stages.
Reflection 15 On the subject of perfection and closing events, Ellen White felt it important to write of the importance of developing characters that would stand the scrutiny of the pre-advent judgment and the time of trouble which will be a time like none ever in this earth’s history. For any to feel that they can make it without Christ is falsehood and great deception. Ellen G. White declared that "the shortness of time is frequently urged as an incentive for seeking righteousness and making Christ our friend." But she went on to urge that "this should not be the great motive with us; for it savors of selfishness." She then asked: "Is it necessary that the terrors of the day of God should be held before us, that we may be compelled to right action through fear?" Her forthright answer was that "it ought not to be so." This statement was made prior to 1888.
Despite the rather frightening descriptions of the awfulness of the close of probation, the time of trouble, and the day of Christ's personal appearing (GC 613-652), she could urge the "love, mercy, and compassion" of Jesus as one who will "walk with" believers and "fill" their "path with light."
Complementing the theme of love (not fear) as the great motive, were numerous statements urging that now—"today"—is the time of preparation for the trying times ahead.
Sister White wrote: "Live the life of faith day by day. Do not become anxious and distressed about the time of trouble, and thus have a time of trouble beforehand. Do not keep thinking, `I am afraid I shall not stand in the great testing day.' You are to live for the present, for this day only. Tomorrow is not yours. Today you are to maintain the victory over self. I don’t know any better way to sum up what I think should be the motivating factor, than to share the lyrics from a song by Jonathan Butler: ‘Falling In Love With Jesus.” Falling in love with Jesus Falling in love with Jesus Falling in love with Jesus Was the best thing I ever, ever done (verse 2) In His arms I feel protected In His arms never disconnected (no no) In His arms I feel protected There's no place I'd rather rather be.
The Means of Perfection The means of perfection received only one noticeable development after 1888—a strong emphasis on the transforming work of the Holy Spirit. Though this was not a new theme, it is clear that Minneapolis unleashed a veritable flood of statements to the effect that the Holy Spirit is the great bearer of power to transform lives into the image of Christ's perfection. I will conclude my reflection with the words of Jesus in John 15:5 ……”For without me ye can do nothing.” Best wishes as we “follow on to know the Lord.” Have A Blessed Holiday!
I like Mika's "Calvinistic theme song," that's funny. It helps to remember what Calvin's theology is about also, God's sovereignty and predestination as God's act of sovereignty. It could be better though if you would sing it for class.
Response to Walter's judging others, I grew up in the Adventist bubble my whole life but I found that I liked being around other people than just Adventists once I got some life experience outside of Adventism. I found myself being a lot less judgmental and a lot more loving when I got to know these people. I wasn't hung up on whether they liked pork or not, or had a beer, but interested in who they were and sharing who I was with them.
Responding to Desmond C. Haye comment on the article, Angel Rodriquez’s article entitled, “Adam and the human race in the writings of E.G. White. I want to emphasize something Desmond said about the awesomeness of Christ's sacrifice. It is hard for me to understand Christ's grace to Adam and Eve after they directly disobeyed God's command. Probably because I see some of myself in Adam and Eve and am so amazed at what Christ has done for me. Even though I don't fully understand it I pray that I am fully thankful for it.
In response to Marcus post about responding to the light we have: Praise God that God holds us accountable to only what we know or we would all lose out. As I was thinking about this I wonder sometimes if what I know and hold my self accountable to is a dangerous thing. For instance throughout history people persecuted others because they thought they were doing the right thing with what they knew. It reminds me of all the theological arguments people get into and the damage that is done. Maybe if we were kinder people it wouldn't be so hard on us when we find out we didn't know a lot to begin with. Thanks for giving me something to reflect on.
Response to anonymous in reference to perfection. I appreciated the comment you made that there is no one that is perfect, we are all fallible. You mentioned Ellen White says this about herself. This has been something that I resonate with. When I look at the Biblical characters none of them were perfect (except Jesus), but in some ways we hold them up as the perfect example. In Sabbath School I remember singing, "Dare to be a Daniel," which I don't think is a bad song, but Daniel was human just like the rest of us, it was God that made him great. And I think we miss that sometimes when we look at spiritual people that it is God that makes them great.
In response to Rudolph Sterlings post on the BRI article on “Christ saved the Human race.” You help to answer a question of mine that deals with why we can sin but why we can't save ourselves. In your post you mentioned that Christ not only saves us but He is at work to help us accept that salvation by the Holy Spirit. After 30 years of life I don't believe I ever thought of that. It is helpful to understand how far we have fallen and how much God loves us and is striving to save us.
In response to Jamie Peterson's post on 1 Timothy 4:10 by Ángel Manuel Rodríguez. You make an interesting point that the devil deals in absolutes. I suppose I don't have as much trouble with absolutes as I do with the fact that the devil is a liar. Absolutes are not in themselves evil but the devil has a way to twist things whether they be in absolute terms or not. Your point on the danger of absolutes among the different camps in Adventism is so true. If we weren't so stubborn to hold on to truth we might be able to see more of it.
Responding to Tim's comment on Romans 4 “(Jesus) who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.” Thanks Tim for pointing this verse out to me also. I didn't catch this verse and I have been over it a few times this semester. I agree with you that it shows salvation as being more that just the cross but includes the resurrection also. I already believed this but I don't know the belief had come from Romans.
"In a way we are looking out for one another rather than competing, testing, and judging one another."
I think this is something I'm learning as well. Community is so important that God always worked in that context as far as I can see in the Bible. Its hard for us in our individualistic society but I think its an important lesson for us all to learn. Peace....
the human sin required that God need to die in oreder to rescue humanity from evil. so Jesus no only gave his life on the cross, but give up everything even the father rejected Him
really all this is mistery and human words are not enough to describe such things
it seems to me very Good reation to the topic of judging one another, I imagine that you have previous experience in relation of what people think about others. But what you say is truth, sometimes we put road blocks to people, making harder for then sucess in daily spiritual living.
look Dan I could not understand very well you point regarding the original sin. Nevertheless came into my mind a question that I should ask to the teacher, in relation to Jesus human nature so thanks.
I just want to share this thought that I got in other class.
Sin has no origin, no cause, and therefore no excuse. It is not a being, entity or creature; it is the active principle of annihilation, a movement opposite from creation in opposition to God. It ravages only when the positive moral life exists. It is a stupid, gratuitous cause of evil and death, and the Bible says it will eventually actively consume itself.
Good comments I just want to add this: "God does not create sin nor arbitrarily harden hearts. Rather humans exercise their freedom and humans harden their own hearts. God gives them opportunity to either harden or soften their hearts through experiences they encounter God tells them that Pharaoh would harden his heart. Only the 7th time did God intervene and harden the heart of Pharaoh. We have a certain limit, a point in which we cannot return to God. When we refuse one too many times that is when the unpardonable sin takes place." hnd.
"We as Christians should realize that we are far from the true understand of sin. Ellen G. White said: 'We must remember that our hearts are naturally depraved and we are unable of ourselves to pursue a right course.'"
I think you are right on. Its nice to see that people in our church are starting to realize that though we are "right" we do not know everything and will learn more and more for eternity. We are becoming a little more humble as a church and in doing so are becoming more "right." Peace...
In response to Dan and what Christ did on the cross. I agree that it is beyond our knowledge what Christ fully accomplished on the cross. I am still pondering what it meant when He said "it is finished." Especially in light of what we have been learning about salvation being in the past, present, and future and that is only one aspect of what happened on the cross let alone what is happening in the sanctuary. I suppose its important to always have a since of wonder and curiosity when approaching salvation.
Responding to anonymous (aka Jeff)on the article, Why Did Jesus Die? How God Saves Us. I to see the problems with breaking down a reality into little bits causing it to no longer have any meaning other than a stage for an argument. I am ok living with mystery. When I think about it there are only a few things that I truly believe, much of the other we don't have the absolutes to say it is this way or that way.
Now that our doctrine of salvation class has ended, I can say that biblical salvation as it is systematic understood appears to be tridimensional. It focused in the past, present and future of human history. It overlaps theological concept such as justification, sanctification and glorification. In consequence, it produces a great tension between the two great reformed view, namely, Calvinistic and Armenian or in other words divine sovereignty and human freedom. Dr Hanna in the beginning of our class handled us two pages containing eight types of biblical texts on salvation and righteousness. They could be order in two types of theological school, the Calvinistic and the Armenian. But to complicate the tension of the class Dr Hanna gave us another page. It showed that biblical salvation has to be understood as an event completed in the past or objective effective to humans. As an event in the present which is subjectively conditional to the acceptance of a past event or objective guarantee of Christ death. Also as a future assurance to those who believe and works toward the restoration of all things.
during this semester we have been analyzing the doctrine of salvation, but it seems to me that is not ease to have complete understanding of the subject, however, this class has provide the sources and ideas for us to have a model of salvation in which is important to take in account the diferent point of view of scholars have in the subject. As spected there is not final answers, but I think that some progress have been acomplished.
As you may notice, this tension led us to a great debate during our two semester periods. It impelled us to study and wrestle with both issue. Some of us like me, was lost during the first section, until the time Dr Hanna proposed more openly a salvific model that may cover those issues. It removes the traditional Adventist model continual process of salvation. There is no a sequence order of justification, sanctification and then glorification. Now it has been placed Justification, sanctification and glorification as a past, present and future event. That caused to understand the sovereignty of God and Human freedom as a past, present and future as well. Because when we traditionally talk about justification in the past we assumed as it is an objective righteousness imputation that God gave to humanity through Jesus Christ. But since it present too it means that it is a subjective imparted righteousness given by God to those who have previously believes. So now Justification is playing both roll, as imputed and imparted righteousness. This could be said with sanctification and glorification. However it appears to me that talking about glorification as a past event modified and challenge all possible soteorogical models, since justification seems to be effective to a human being nor to prior to existence. Nevertheless it was a complicated paradigm that it has been difficult to me to understand so to explain, I would like to suggest that theme and subject like this should be brought out more often. It provides a sense of dependence in God and a deep desired to ask the Holy Spirit as a guide and teacher.
As I read Rev. 3:20 “Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with them, and they with me.” I am reminded of a story of an artist who inspired by this passage created the famous piece of Jesus standing in front of a door and knocking, making vivid the description found in the verse just mentioned. Man’s freedom and God’s salvation. First we must recognize that we are sinners, born with this infirmity by nature and by choice. By nature because that is our nature, falling nature descending from our father Adam. Rom. 3:10 “…there is no on righteous, not even one.” Isaiah 1:6 “From the sole of your foot to the top of your head there is no soundness, only wounds and welts and open sores, not cleansed or bandaged or soothed with oil.” This is the first step in the salvation processes. To recognize that one is a sinner. But that is free will. I have a choice to determine that fact. I can live my life wondering this world and never admit that I am a sinner and in need of a savior. To recognize that I am a sinner is to consciously or unconsciously demonstrate that man needs a higher power for salvation. This recognition makes way for God to perform the miracle of change our lives into some thing better. Give us the hope and assurance of salvation. Does this mean God can’t do anything before I admit I am a sinner? Yes, because as in the Revelation Jesus knocks, he does not knock down the door, and No, because even though we do not admit our condition and admit we need help, God presents us daily with little glimpses of a better life.
This is where God’s salvation comes into play. God is constantly seeking us, consistently giving us open doors to come in and sit with him. He may use people, events, things and even animals to catch our attention, why because that is his nature. He loves us, and because he does he wants to save us. Rom. 8:1-2 states God purpose and means to accomplish our salvation. Through Christ and only through Christ we are saved. In the article “The Dynamics of Salvation” from the Adventist Biblical Research website, it said this: “There is no merit in faith itself. We are not saved by faith but by grace: "For by grace you have been saved through faith" (Eph. 2:8); "There is nothing in faith that makes it our saviour."-The SDA Bible Commentary, Ellen G. White Comments, vol. 6, p. 1071. Instead, faith is the means, the instrument, by which we claim God's gift from salvation (Selected Messages, book 1, p. 363). The cross alone is our salvation; faith is our personal acceptance of the cross as God's decisive act in our behalf.
I like you comment, on the subject of Adam sin, is true that we inherit sinful nature from Adam, all this things regarding the subject of sin is really a mistery but thanks God for Jesus and the cross who is the answer fo r every mistery.
This comment is regarding Freddy’s reflection on Angel Manuel Rodriquez ; Christ Saved the the human race. I agree with you because God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life. Acceptance and believing is the key. Faith unlocks the door.
Dt.25:1 If there is a dispute between men and they go to court, and the judges decide their case, and they justify the righteous and condemn the wicked..
Justify means the opposite of condemn. In court the judge declares the accused innocent, that he is righteous and not subject to punishment.
Pro.17:15 He who justifies the wicked, and he who condemns the righteous, both of them are an abomination to the Lord.
This verse, in addressing unjust judges, also shows that justify means the opposite of condemn.
Justification is a judicial act in which a judge declares the accused righteous. Legal universal justification implies that all human beings come into the world legally saved, pardoned, justified. If it is true that every human being who has been and will be born on this planet was present in Christ when he died and that they all were legally justified, then those who are not yet born have already been justified. The Bible makes clear that every one who is born into this world of sin is in need of the Savior. We are by nature born in sin and shapen in iniquity.We deserve to die (Eph 2:3). It is true that because of Christ we do not have to die, but that does not mean that we were already legally saved or justified before or when we were born.
Thanks for the feedback Mika. I think that is an important distinction between knowing or not knowing the Father's will when we pray that prayer, and that is definitely a significant difference between our situations and that of Jesus in Gethsemane. I don't know about your life, but it seems that we are often looking to find out "God's will" for our lives, as if that is the struggle. The example of Jesus shows us though, that knowing God's will is only half the issue. The other half is being willing to follow through, to submit our will to His, especially when that might mean we go though a bunch of stuff we really don't want to go through (like living in Michigan instead of BC:). God bless Mika, have a great Christmas break!
I agree that freedom is a huge part of God's dealings with the universe. however, in the context of the 'risk' God took, I was struck by how Dr. Hanna talked about that risk in class today. It was not a risk with an unknown outcome, God knows the end from the beginning, even if he does break into time and exist along side of us in the 'now.' I'm not sure what word to use instead of risk, but 'risk' or chance' do not seem appropriate for a know outcome, even if the outcome (in short term) is painful or negative. I agree with the human freedom part and that God could not have made us all robots and still have the possibility of righteous or authentic love from robots. I would be more comfortable that God took an informed and difficult decision, He made a 'hard call' to keep the universe free at any cost, a cost that He would have to pay.... Like I said, I still don't have a good word for it, but 'risk' or 'chance' to me implies ambiguous knowledge of the outcomes, and I don't think God is ambiguous at all about his knowledge.
Daniel, I appreciated your well thought out and lengthy post for Nov 8. I especially appreciated your reflection on EGW's comments about the bi-nature of Christ and how it is a mystery that cannot be explained. That he was “affected by sin but not infected with it." A little later you quoted her as explaining that the “key temptation for Christ was the same as it is for all humans—the desire to go it alone and depend upon self rather than divinely imparted power from above.” As I have just had a semester 'from Hades' i am still learning how to rely on God more. For me, part of the challenge is also to live in harmony with the laws of nature as EGW talks about and not being so 'workaholic' I don't think this quote can be used to justify our workaholism though and having the HS compensate for our lack balance, but rather in a spiritual sense to help us overcome pride and sinfulness with His supernatural help.
The beautiful feet of those who bring good news.... I find that all the disagreement between BRI and 1888 committee is after a time tiresome. I think it's great that we have the freedom and time to dig into the Bible and discuss back and forth these topics, but isn't there a point where you say 'this discussion is not really going anywhere, maybe I should spend some time in ministry.' I especially find that doing basic Bible studies with new believers is great for bringing you back down to theological earth. We can spend our whole lives in scholarly debates, or we can 'know enough' to bring others to Christ. Not to say that 'know enough' and stop learning, but where we have the wisdom to focus on 'practical theology' and spend undue time splitting hairs with people who are already quite set in their ways. NEhow, this is coming from a kids pastor, so yes, with kids you can't sit around and split hairs very long before you have a zoo on your hands. Well, that's my two cents on the whole BRI vs. 1888 debate for this week.
In Romans 10 there are some beautiful passages about God's promise of Salvation to those who call on His name and believe in Him. I'm not sure what to do with vs. 20 though, when Paul quotes Isaiah saying, “I was found by those who did not seek me; I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me.” The revealing part I see through Jesus, but how can you be found by those not seeking you? Would this be like Gentiles living their lives in their own religions around the Roman empire and then Paul shows up with message of Christ? Perhaps they were not seeking a new faith or a Messiah, but upon hearing Paul's message of Christ, they now found Someone who they did not even know they were looking for. Hmmm, I'll have to reflect on that one more.
"Understanding salvation in terms of the past, present, and future has been a helpful tool in my understanding of salvation "
"Salvation is not cheap and seeing salvation as a process is also a safeguard against cheap grace because it requires in us growth and change. So yes I have been saved if I choose, I am saved if I choose, and I will be saved if I choose... I am now seeing it as a process throughout history."
Luke, I agree that it has been good to look at the past/present/future aspects of Salvation (as well as sanctification and glorification). I definitely see how different Bible verses give different time frames for 'when' Salvation happens. I also enjoy looking at the process of Salvation, not just the event. I still think that often in that process many people do a have a 'defining moment' where they do fully surrender to God for the first time. However, I have discovered the hard way that this needs to be an ongoing and repeating event. That does not take away from the specialness of that big surrender, just like graduating form college does not diminish my HS graduation, but it protects from ever thinking that I have 'arrived' and helps me understand why I am still imperfect. There is a favorite quote of mine that I put on some of my emails. This is how it goes: "...Am I no longer young, and still not half-perfect? Let me keep my mind on what matters, which is my work, which is mostly standing still and learning to be astonished..." Mary Oliver
I appreciated your comment. I agree that it is exciting and releaving to know that I am not stuck the way I am!
If Heppenstall was saying that we are stuck this way as in that we are helpless to stop doing the actions of sin then I would have a serious problem with his ideas as well. If we are not able to keep from doing what we do than God is a jerk for holding us accountable for messing up - I can say that because I dont believe that God is that way.
What I got out of Heppenstall is that though we can grow to maturity and even get to the point where we dont commit acts of sin we will have our bent human natures until we are changed "in the twinkling of an eye" when Jesus comes. I think this idea is very Biblical and also supported by Ellen White as well. Though we can grow to the point that we dont give into our sinful natures we will not be free of our tendencies until Jesus comes. That is what I understood as not being able to be "sinless." Anyway hope that is helpful. Peace...
Freddy stated in his comment that “God in His immense power and infinite love gave us the gift of salvation, in exchange of our faith.” Of a truth we can not do any thing to save our selves. It is only as we cooperate with God, and He empowers us that we can partake of his grace. Our faith is the only thing that we have to give to God. But at the same time it is God that empowers us to use, and give that faith to accept Him. This is in no way an acceptance of the Calvinistic view, rather it is to show that God is very integral in our salvation, but we too have a role to play to accept this grace.
I like the comment that Walter posted in regard to the phrase obedience of faith, and the fact that we are not saved by works. Truly, through the semester we all have wrestled with the topic of salvation and the way we are saved. Consequently, with the issue at hand, there is great need today to explain in a clear and balance way the tension that exist between faith and works in regards to our salvation. As it is often said we are saved by a faith that works, not by a works that have faith.
Comment #10 This short reflection is in response to Jamie Peterson’s week ten submission. I appreciate the view reflected in the paper about the idea of faith. I never viewed or thought about looking at faith in this way. God put faith in us; therefore, it is not us who are producing good works it is God working in us that is producing the works. I agree with this view up to a certain point. I believe that we have a part to play in relation to God and humankind. I am not convinced that God arbitrarily puts faith in us. Although not specified in the paper, it seems we do not have to allow God to put the faith in us. The author of the paper stated Ellen White that the law will take care of itself and that the law have been worked on so long that it has become as dry as the hills of Gilboa. I feel that everything that’s in the Bible should be discussed, not debated. If it’s in the Bible, I feel that it should be an everlasting discussion or at least until a plausible understanding is reached. The truth is that problems don’t care of themselves. Trusting in the merits of Christ, in my estimation is not saying that the law shouldn’t be discussed. A lot of times, a surface reading of a text or not trying to understand the message of someone else, can lead to a great misunderstanding of what really being said. The question is “Does the law saves us?” The answer many will automatically give is No! However, if it shows us sin, then we can correct it. If it doesn’t show us sin, how do we know whether or not we need to make any corrections. Jamie stated that the law shows us how much we need God. Although it in a sense the law don’t save us, it in a sense does save in that it show us the need we have for God. So, if not by the law, how would we know that we need God? Does the law save us? In a sense it does.
Comment #11 This comment is on Ray Edward’s response to the reading. I really appreciate Ray’s insight on his idea about conversion. I really liked the way he used the cup and water as a metaphor to express his view. In his metaphor, he expresses the idea that a person is converted in stages. I agree that this happens in some cases but to say that this is the only way conversion takes place is, in my estimation, limiting the power of the Holy Spirit. I believe that a person can fully and totally be converted when the person accepts Christ’s call. I see this in Paul’s conversion but it was not the case with Peter and others. True I believe Paul had evidence of the Holy Spirit, which was the case when Stephen’s face lit up like an angel’s face. It may be true that people continue to look for and discover God’s will for their lives once they are converted but they are fully converted, nevertheless. I agree that a bigger model of salvation is needed, not only because our language is limited but also because a lot of Bible subjects and topics need deep study and research. He says that Paul states that we are only really saved when we are physically resurrected. He goes on to say that until then we groan and await our salvation. I am not being harsh or judgmental but I see an oxymoron in his thoughts. First, I would like to investigate being saved from being really saved. I don’t necessarily see where the saved as it relates to salvation should have any other adjective to try to change its meaning. I believe that saved is saved. A play on words doesn’t change the meaning of the word. When Paul was ready about to be martyred, he said there is a crown that is waiting for me in glory. He then states not for him only but for all those who wait Christ’s appearing. To say that we are only really saved when we are physically resurrected, is to say that all people who Christ is going to take to heaven are going to die. This is contradictory of Scripture. Besides, when someone dies his/her salvation is sealed. We know that those who die in the Lord will be raised in the Lord and we know that they will inherit salvation because we have faith that Christ is coming back because He promised that He is.
Comment #12 This comment is in response to Tim’s reflection on Romans 12 and the BRI document. I agree with Tim. I don’t see where any farther comment is needed on Tim’s reflection. Although I agree with his idea that it seems to be easier for a believer to be saved in the company of other believers rather than by being an isolated Christian, I also believe that being in the company of others doesn’t make the determination of whether or not salvation is harder or easier. Once a person allows Christ to reign supreme in his or her life, he or she will be able to display a Christ-like character whether he or she is in the company of other believers or not. I for one need the fellowship of other believers after wrestling with the non-believers. God, I believe, has called us to do most of our witnessing among non-believers but to fellowship with the believers for rejuvenation. I also agree with Tim on his interpretation on the BRI document. I believe that both parties were saying that a person needs Christ’s grace in order to be saved. The disagreement is over the status of a person before he or she accepts Christ’s grace. Somethings, I believe although need to be studied doesn’t need to be debated. However, I believe that a person is either saved or lost. There are no in-betweens. At the same time, it’s not, in my estimation, humankind’s place to try to figure out whether a person is saved or lost.
Comment #13 This comment is in response to Dale Baker’s reflection on the BRI document and on Whidden chapter 13. I feel that Dale summed the whole BRI document and chapter 13 out of Whidden in very few understandable words. Dale stated Ellen White that we are only saved by through Christ by faith. This is what the Bible says. Yes, we are only saved by Christ. There is nothing that we can do in and of ourselves to gain salvation. The Bible lets us know that all of our righteousness is as filthy rags. Therefore, we have to have someone else’s righteousness covering us. That someone else is Christ. In Him we have our beginning and our end. Salvation is not of us. The underlining idea of this whole great controversy is worship and the battle is between Christ and Satan. It is true that every person from the first man created to the last person to be born comes into this world needing a personal Savior. Christ is the justifier of humankind and we can only receive His justification if allow Him to put faith in our hearts and accept His atoning sacrifice. We are born needing Christ because of sin. Not that we have committed sin when we are first born but because we are sinners by nature and if we live long enough we will eventually commit sin. Christ’s merit makes up and/or covers our deficiencies. Therefore without Christ’s merits, we are all hopeless.
Comment #14 This comment is in response to Rudolph Sterling’s reflection on Romans 14 and the BRI document. Romans 14 say just as Rudy states. Rudy give a good synopsis of his understanding of Romans 14 and the BRI document. I believe there is a need for us to maintain a degree of unity within the Christian realm, at least among the same denominations. Paul in his advice to the Romans were telling them that people are different but even with their being different there are some things that they can do to get, hold, and maintain a balance of unity. Those who eat certain things need not bother those who don’t and vice versa. This is what causes disunity. When people disagree on each other rather than on an issue or when one tries to exact his or her views upon another while not being open to other views, is what causes disunity and strife among people. The people who have been justified should esteem others above themselves. Not because others are better than them, but because the person realizes what Christ has done for them, personally. Because of this, the one who has been justified will put other above himself or herself. In short, Paul alludes to doing whatever it takes to unify people and keep peace among them this is what ought to be done. Rudy makes a good point by stating that people should see that evolution is not real by looking at the reality of original sin. However, the fact of the matter is that many people can see original sin as an off shoot or even as evidence for evolution. Many scientist and even religious people claim that animals were long destroying, killing and eating each other, before man ever existed. I wish not to get into the theory of evolution. There is a great concern among believers that plagues their thoughts about the idea sin and perfection. This too is another area where a lot of research is conducted but a disparity of beliefs is shared among believers.
Comment #15 I want to thank Matena Kefa for opening up my eyes and getting me to see something that I never saw before. I never thought to use the Gentiles as an example for the offering the priests were making in the temple as a sacrifice to God. I would like to extend what was said a little farther and say that the Gentiles were being sacrificed. I don’t mean that they were literary being killed but they were a living sacrifice as Paul said earlier in Romans. I believe that we, not as pastors and teachers, per se but as Christian should seek out the Gentiles and straying Jews to bring them back into the sheepfold that they too can present themselves to God as a living sacrifice. This in my estimation is one of the ideas about salvation. Not what we have done, but what we have allowed Christ to do through us. While I appreciate the comment, I believe that Matena was mistaken on one fact. Yes, Paul was sent to the Gentiles but so was Peter. If my memory serves me correctly, Peter went to the Gentiles first, to the house of Cornelius. The idea here stems from the fact that everybody needs to hear the gospel message. Salvation is for everyone. It is for the Gentiles and the Greeks just as well as it are for the Jews. It made no difference to Paul just like it shouldn’t make any difference to us about a person’s nationality. We soon forget that not all Gentiles were of the same country and nationality. When Peter spoke at Pentecost, there were a number of representatives from different nationalities there. Our duty as Christian is to present the gospel to as many as we can. However we should make the gospel as attractive as we can without watering it down. People need to hear the gospel truth just like it is presented in the Bible, in the life of Christ, and in the life of believers. It is our duty to find and use methods to minister the gospel in an attractive way to make it acceptable to postmodern people living in this postmodern world.
In his commentary of Chapter 13 of Romans Rudy wrote:There seem to be three good lessons in the 13th chapter of Romans; here the apostle enlarges more upon his precepts than he had done in the foregoing chapter, finding them more needful to be fully pressed. Lessons in: subjection to lawful authority, justice and love to our brethren, sobriety and godliness in ourselves. We are here taught how to conduct ourselves towards the higher powers, intimating their authority, including not only the king as supreme, but all inferior magistrates under him; not just the persons that are in that power, but the place of power itself, or the office of the power. I agree with Rudy on this matter too often we respect the person and not the office, as a result we are people focus in this regard rather than dealing with the position and office.
Rudolph reflects on Romans 14 and the BRI document. Rudy give a brief synopsis of his viewpoint of Romans 14 and the BRI document. I share the view of unity, however the purpose for unity, I believe is important in order to establish the way forward. For instance uniting with ecumenical movements and organizations that promote systems that collide directly with our beliefs is unwise. Paul in his advice to the Romans that people are different but, being means that there are different things that they can do to maintain unity. He spoke about the contention between what some eat versus others, the question is what is really referring to in the statement? Those who eat certain things need not bother those who don’t and vice versa. The people who have been justified should esteem others above themselves as well as esteem themselves high as Ambassadors of the kingdom of Heaven.
I agree with Freddy that God gave us the gift of his saving power through Jesus Christ. Indeed we are called to respond to that gift in faith. Our response to the opportunity immediately and daily becomes a witness to those with whom we come in contact. Therefore, we are not just called to accept, but also to live.Interesting, quite interesting! Garfield
Jeff Carlson comment #10 is reality. As Christians and as church members we cannot embrace ourselves and our achievements to the detriment of the purpose for which we are called. We are responsible to recognize that individually and collectively our achievements are simply through the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and nothing else. We must therefore rejoice only in Ebenezer- For hitherto hath the Lord brought us.
This comment is in response to Jonathan Russell's reflection of How Perfect is Perfect? --- Or-- Is Christian Perfection Possible?
Many Jewish believers, having stepped out of Judaism into Christianity want to reverse their course in order to escape persecution by their countrymen.
The writer of Hebrews exhorts them to "go on to perfection" Heb 6:1 (KJV) Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentence from dead works, and of faith toward God.
His appeal is based on the superiority of Christ over the Judiac system. Christ is better that the angels, for they worship Him. He is better than Moses, for He created him. He is better than the Aaronic priesthood, for His sacrifice was once for all time. He is better than the law, for He meditates a better covenant. In short there is more to be gained in Christ than to be lost in Judaism.
Pressing on in Christ produces tested faith, self-discipline, and a visible love seen in good works.
The church of Christ is God’s appointed agency for the salvation of men. It’s mission is to carry the gospel to the world. And the obligation rests upon all Christians. Everyone, to the extent of his talent and opportunity is to fulfill the Savior’s commission. The love of Christ, revealed to us, makes us debtors to all who know Him not. God has given us light, not for ourselves alone, but to shed upon them. Blessings & Peace!
Responding to Garfield Comment I aggree with you that when God counts one a perfect person, he does it in a sense that, he no longer cherishes sin in his life or commits overt sin deliberately or willfully planned.
Responding to Motten's comment I agree with you that many who claim to be seeking God come with their eyes shut and their ears closed so that they do not know when God is talking to them because they have already made up their minds that their views and opinions are right and don’t want to hear anything to the contrary.
Responding to Luke's comment I am in aggrement with you that Salvation is ultimately much bigger than me and my decision, but it doesn’t make my decision to accept Christ any less important, it points more to God’s goodness.
Thanks for the reflection paper and I totally agree with you in the relationship between our faith and obedience to God’s law. It reflects a genuine love of a repented sinner to his Lord and Savior who gave His life for salvation of men. Jesus Himself often said in Scripture that: “If you love Me, keep My commandments.” It is not in a legalistic manner in which other may perceive but it flows out of a responsive love to our Creator God. Appreciated your reflection.
My comment is in regard to Earl Reflection #7 paper were you said “we need to come to a clear doctrinal understanding about perfection. . . help this already tough journey be a little more bearable.” I can feel your concern Earl and admit to you I have felt the same way. Through my days of study and growing in my relationship with Christ I can say now that just as I have to believe and have faith that I have to put on Christ righteousness to be righteous I have to believe and have faith that only if I put on Christ perfection I will be perfect. Not the perfection of my doing but being a believer in Christ life-sacrifice for me. As far as sin in my life, I sin daily either knowingly or sometimes maybe unknowingly. As I grow in my relationship with Christ I choose not to willfully sin, but if I do sin I immediately remember I have an advocate (Jesus) because I am not depending on my life to be sinless, but on His intercession for me and the conviction of the Holy Spirit that I will desire to confess, and repent, and turn from my sin(s). It was stated well about Noah, Abraham, and Job was declared “perfect men” but their lives were far from being sinless. Remember who declared them perfect and why? They had an on-going relationship with Jesus the Christ. We need to work daily on our relationship and just have faith in Jesus and the scripture(s) just to give one you know but may not take at face value as we say, “Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” Matthew 5:48. NASB Again not our perfection but Christ perfection>
My comment is to Ednah: Ednah I agree with you that the BRI-Salvation by Faith was a good article. In that article I could see as well how grace is given to a sinner like me and I thank God that it doesn’t start with my works. But as I remember our class discussion about the terms passive and active, in this article and in your reflection paper I could see the passive term being used in Rom 11:6. Then however I see the active term mentioned in your reflection as you stated, “we as human beings have to do nothing, apart from following our master as He leads.” The second half of your statement is active, something we have to do. So we are involved in the process of Salvation by faith and that’s good news for me that nothing is forced on me it is of my free will I choose. Ednah I see works as a bi-product of my being grateful for the grace God gives me.
280 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 280 of 280Comments on Dr. Hanna's lecturer on "Israel in Romans 9-11"
I have been reflecting on Dr. Hanna's presentation on Israel in Romans and would love to share the following:
Firstly,in my humble reflection i believe that Israel in the texts he mentioned has to do with national Israel in one sense, and spiritual Israel in another.So we could safely say not all of national Israel will be apart of Spiritual Israel.This seems to be line of reasoning that Paul is forwarding in chapter 9. We can agree that Paul in this book of Romans is making a case regarding the universal nature of sin, and God's universal plan to save all humanity. As the apostle builds his case, he shows how national Israel were given the mandate to "bear the oracles of truth to the nations." This duty they rejected,and because of this God turned to the Gentiles. If we follow this trend we can clearly see that the apostle in chapter 9 and onwards is sorrowing for the Jews as a people. Paul is also showing that Israel is not limited to the nation of Israel (9:1-5), but God has a people, even the Gentiles who are also heirs of salvation.
Secondly, It appears from the context that not all Spiritual Israel is apart of national Israel. In chapter 10:19, i am baffled by Paul's statement that Israel(national) will be provoked by them that are "no people." I hear suggest that the "no people" mentioned in this text is referring to the Gentiles , who are not apart of national israel.This could also be seen as Spiritual Israel, who will be called out from among His people.
I believe firmly that a proper understanding of how Israel is used in these passage is crucial for how we view who constitute spiritual as well as national Israel. So, where do we go from here? How should we really view Israel in this interesting book of Romans? Should we view national Israel as apart of spiritual Israel or not? I wonder.
Heather Barbian
In response to Jjwalper
“I want more faith too! Romans 10:17 is one of my favorite verses. It amazes me how simple it is to know Jesus and yet how difficult it is for us to stay in the word of God. We’re constantly bombarded with distractions of all sorts, but praise God, he is willing and able to save to the uttermost, all who come to Him, through His Son Jesus Christ.”
I am right there with you on being distracted. Lately I have not been getting into the word because of school and life getting in the way. Now of course teachers could give us less busy work for the sake of doing something yet I wonder if it was really important to me I think I would still find time. Shame on me for falling into the same trap as the majority of pastors!
Heather Barbian
In response to Ray Edwards:
I really enjoyed reading your blog this week. It really struck me when you said, “If God saved me without my input then he knocked the door down instead of stand[ing] at the door... and now [he] becomes a robber instead. The only thing that we can give to God that he didn’t give us in the first place is our choice to love him or not. Love cannot be forced. And it’s really foolish to say that God loves himself through me. I must do the loving.” I have never thought of Calvinism in that imagery before. That if we have no choice God is knocking down doors instead of waiting next to them. I am sure though that a Calvinist would argue God is not a thief if he already owns us in a sense since he is our Creator.
Hi Ray,
Ray wrote: “But even if I cannot choose to follow God I can choose to give God my choice. In other words, I can surrender my will to God. If God does everything for me then where does my choice come into the picture?” I think that it is a false assumption to think that since God created man and give him life that anything that man does has to be ultimately attributed to God. This would means that God created evil!”
It seems as if this type of comment is yet more support for the “doctrine of salvation” to stay in the MDiv requirements. But beyond that – I think that I can understand what you are saying and the difficulty in saying “All-God” or some combination of God and choice.
Could it be that the answer is yes to what you are saying. That choice “of faith” is my/your input but the good works worked in/through you could not be done less it be gifted from God? And so I think that absolutely, there has to be a choice – and ultimately that choice could never have been - less it was God given.
But God creating evil – wow! I’m not sure about that? I’m not saying that the reasoning isn’t there – it just doesn’t “feel” right to say that. And so my defensive side thinks that the “choice” (hannah’s “condition”) was made for God by you/me and then God finishes the work in us. However, if I “choose” to not accept the gift of God, then God is at an impass to act in favour for my salvation. And if this is true – then my choice has become outside of the will of God and is not credited to God, so God is not responsible for my evil.
At the same time – God loves me so much that He continues to look for opportunities here and there to reach me. Even while I am acting on my own, He is constantly protecting me because he is not slack and wants me to “choose salvation.
Or – it could be that I’m also struggling with this salvation thing “meritorious” thing to the point of forcing a wishful position.
A response to Geraldine Reflection Paper V
Geraldine O'Neal said...
My question is why do we as a church tend to shy away from the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, a very necessary part of the Christian experience? It’s almost as if this relates only to “Pentecostal” faith not Adventist.
Good question Geraldine, I share your concern. I do think one reason SDA’s shy away from embracing the whole concept of the baptism of the Holy Spirit is because this baptism is associated with speaking in tongues. Most Pentecostals claim that evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit is manifested by the recipient’s ability to speak in tongue. I think the SDA theology on spiritual gift needs to be further developed to include all that the Holy Spirit cad accomplish in the life of a believer. I believe our current understanding and embracement of this gift is limiting the work of the Holy Spirit.
Rudolph Sterling
A response to Geoffrey ... Chapter 7 on Ellen White on Salvation
Thanks for expressing your thoughts. I agree that the issues with are struggling with seems to present never ending circular arguments. I appreciate your insights on the salvation issue relating to Ellen white. Yes the debates are often over metaphors and I will add forms as oppose to meaning. I do think we need to be able to separate the form from the meaning but the masses are not aware of this; therefore we may need to educate.
I disagree with you that the objective subjective salvation debate is ridiculous. There are fundamental implications to accepting one view without consideration to the other. For example if I am saved through objective salvation only I do not need to be obedient to God’s laws because I am saved regardless.
Rudolph Sterling
A response to Desmond C. Article read: Romans 13
Good insights and good question. It is sobering to think that the same power we are admonished by scriptures to be subjected to will one day put us as SDA’s in a position to disobey them. You asked ...” how do we know when a power is not of God? You rightly answered that it becomes even more complex, when all the issues involved are bombarding us. When Israel was taken to Babylon that was a punishment from God on Israel and although they were forced by the punisher, (who was ordained by God) to worship Idols they were still expected to be obedient to God’s Laws.
Rudolph Sterling
A response to Ray Edwards: “Justification by Faith and Judgment According to Works” by Ivan T. Blazen, Romans 12 -Ellen White On Salvation, Chapter 13.
I appreciate your struggle in dealing with the issue of will in the salvation process. In trying to understand free will, free choice one must not lose sight of the fact that God is sovereign. Every decision that is made is made because He allows it to be made. Paul puts it best in acts 17 by saying “in Him we live and move and have our being”. God provided salvation for man but gives man the opportunity and ability to make a choice.
On the issue of autonomy and the creation of Evil; ultimately one will have to lay the creation of evil at God’s feet, because if not, it allows for another creator in the universe.
Rudolph Sterling
Jeff Carlson responding to Heather Barbian:
Hey Heather that was a great question about obedience to governments. The way I see it is similar to the military. In the military you receive respect not by earning it but because of your rank. My friend Zach has never "really" served a day in the military but when he goes to the recruter's office the recruter - who has actualy seen active duty - calls him "sir" because he has a higher rank. At the same time the military holds soldiers accountable for their actions in response to those in command. You can be held accountable and punished for something you did "just following orders" like in Germany in the Second World War. I think that is the tension here. God expects us to give respect to authorities whether or not they "deserve" it. That is hard for us to undersatnd in our "enlightened" culture but I think its pretty clearly the proper understanding of this passage. However, God doesnt expect us to mindlessly follow every command of that authority as evidenced by the commendation of Christians who wouldnt light incense to the Caesar. I guess there is a difference between not obeying and disrespect.
Jeff Carlson said (comment #10):
"I’m glad I am a Seventh-day Adventist and I’m 'proud' of our theological understanding of the Bible. However we need to remember that just like the Jews in Paul’s time we need justified no matter how much better we understand reality than those around us – maybe even more!"
Jeff, you make me proud to be a Seventh-day Adventist. Thank you.
Geoffrey Blake said, "It is amazing that Paul uses the word “mystery” here in talking about the proclamation of Jesus Christ...From a general observation of Christianity—it still seems as if much of the “mystery” that he dealt with, we are still trying to figure out! And maybe that’s okay."
I really appreciated your comment man. We spend so much time trying to "figure out" the gospel that we forget to revel in the grandness of it all! Was Christ pre-fall or post-fall? Who freakin cares if we miss the point of the whole thing that He actually came and lived in our skin...however He did it! What an amazing mystery. Understanding is important dont get me wrong but I dont think we are in danger of doing too little of that. We are in danger, it seems, of analyzing the beauty right out of the whole thing. I think we focus on the answer so much we miss the beauty in the mystery and the journey!
----------------> jeff carlson
Jeff Carlson wrote: The ideas of Romans 13 really have nothing to do at all with anything here so I’m not going to try to make them fit. However, there is one homiletically twisted usage of a verse in this chapter that caught my eye: The verse that talks about our salvation being closer than it was before. I think that rather than fighting about how far salvation is from lost people we should focus on how close it is…closer than they even know! That makes me want to tell them!
Enjoyed Jeff post and his "paper tigers" comment. It's really hard to believe the views some people hold considering they are reading the same Bible that you do. Even though we see things in different ways because of nurture and nature still some things should just be basic and fundamental.
I wanted to respond to Jess where he said he saw no connection between his discussion and Romans 13. I want to challenge him on that apparent disconnect because I think that they are very much connected. (Although I understand the way in which he was 'speaking'--they are two different TOPICS.)
In Romans 13 Paul is speaking abut the consequences of what we believe about salvation, i.e. how we live, so there is a connection. :)
We must not only have it right but live it right. As SDAdventist we are generally better at the former than the latter.
A comment on the post of Rudolp Sterling:
"As far as I understands it salvation is neither free nor cheap, it does not cost me anything simply because it is a gift. It is oxymoronic to pay for a gift. Other think they are only worthy of salvation after they have attained perfection (sinlessness) if we could attain perfection (sinless) the we could die for our own sin, we die anyway, but our death is not sufficient to atone for sin because atonement requires a perfect, spotless sacrifice, offered in just the right way. Jesus, the one perfect God-man, came to offer the pure, complete and everlasting sacrifice to remove, atone, and make eternal payment for our sin."
I believe in your statement 100% and I think you have pounded the nail right on its head. The only way humans can be saved by believing and accepting the Christ's offered free gift of salvation.
Daniel ocampo commenting on Mika's post
Mika wrote: "Christ’s meritorious works are certainly the keys to victory for the renewed mind, but the renewed mind + it’s consequence-ing is not salvation. What goes on in the believer is good, but not good enough!
But please don’t let it stop here. Oh yeah – and about the “conditional” faith that brings about works. Well, please understand that salvation was made universally “in Christ” is null unless the subjective condition of faith is fulfilled in the person that is granted salvation."
This was written well enough for me to say that any obedience or good works outside a relationship with Christ is nothing, no value. Our work in Christ or not doesn't real merit for salvation. But any good work done in Christ is a showcase of what Christ through the Holy Spirit does in us. This is the renewing of our minds.
dan
Heather Barbian
In response Jeff Carlson;
I really liked your week 13 blog. You wrote, “There will be no “independent ministries” section in Heaven. And there will be no “regional” section in Heaven! I hope that does not get interpreted in a wrong way but I just really have a burden for unity in our Church and hope we are able to grow together rather than keep splitting off into our own little groups and missing the opportunity to grow as more mature Christians and more mature people in general.” I could not agree more since we have over 30,000 Christian denomination. It seems that our churches are more defined by how they are different rather than what we share. We even go to the extent to call one another Babylon or the Beast.
jjwalper said...
I agree with you Tim, I want more faith too! Romans 10:17 is one of my favorite verses. It amazes me how simple it is to know Jesus and yet how difficult it is for us to stay in the word of God. We’re constantly bombarded with distractions of all sorts, but praise God, he is willing and able to save to the uttermost, all who come to Him, through His Son Jesus Christ. I will pray for you once I’m done typing these responses. Please pray for me as well. Man I agree with you again in your assessment that we need to add the importance of Bible study in growing our faith. May God ground us in His Word...may we not get lost in the many debates and arguments. God bless you brother!
jjwalper said...
Ray I liked how you explained that we need a larger model of salvation because there are multiple models that Paul uses to communicate what Jesus has done for us…justification, reconciliation, sanctification, salvation history and the apocalyptic models…I can appreciate a larger model, as long as it is biblical, but my concern is that sometimes a wholistic, larger model is the last thing we need to adopt. Sometimes it represents an antagonistic effort to adopt false doctrine. May God guide us by His Holy Spirit as we endeavor to maintain purity of doctrine in these last days. As for the question on the security of the universe after the final judgment….whew! that’s a deep question man. In my limited understanding, our living in the full presence of God will remove any desire whatsoever for sin. Blessings!
11/12/2007 8:41 PM
Argenis this is a response to your blog entry on Dr. Rodriguez BRI article on the “in Adam/in Christ” subject. This entire debate as to whether or not BRI is right or 1888 is right will probably go on until the end, but I’ll give it a shot as to my understanding of it, and you can respond if you like. It’s clear that Adam sinned and thus brought sin into the human race…in addition to this, it is clear that Jesus did not sin and that He offered Himself up as a perfect sin offering on Calvary for our sins. He took our place and became a curse so that we would be blessed. I imagine we agree on all of these. My question lies in the area of legal justification. I tend to lean in the direction of 1888 and here is why. If we look at the sanctuary, most notably the Ark of the Covenant, we see a small picture of the entire Plan of Redemption. Inside the ark there is the bowl of manna, the rod of Aaron, and the tablets of stone in the 10 commandments….the lid sitting above these is called the mercy seat…above the mercy seat are the two angels with their wings folded in towards each other, covering the mercy seat…their faces looking down towards the mercy seat. I believe this is where we get a picture of the entire plan of salvation. Here it goes…when heaven looks down as do the angels on the lid of the Ark, what do they see? They see that God has given man His law, but they continually break it (10 commandments), they see that God provides man with his daily bread, but then man complains at this providence (bowl of manna), they see how God provides leaders for His people, but we see man questioning God’s ability to designate leaders correctly (rod of Aaron)…As heaven looks down and sees all of this going on, what does God do? He sends the Lamb of God, Jesus Christ to be our sin offering. Jesus blood is spread over the mercy seat and now what does heaven see when they look down at mankind? They see that Jesus shed His blood for the entire human race. Because His blood is over the mercy seat…now I believe that Matthew 24’s call that the end will be just as Noah’s day includes a call to enter into an Ark. Only instead of Noah’s Ark, God is calling the world to enter into the Ark of the Covenant. It is a covenant that God has made with His own Son, Jesus. So it seems to indicate that not only did Jesus shed His blood for the entire world, but most notably for those who enter into His covenant between Him and God the Father. I believe this is essentially what 1888 is teaching…on the other hand I’ve yet to hear a salvation model from BRI independent of bashing 1888. Have a blessed break!
Argenis this is a response to your blog entry on Dr. Rodriguez BRI article on the “in Adam/in Christ” subject. This entire debate as to whether or not BRI is right or 1888 is right will probably go on until the end, but I’ll give it a shot as to my understanding of it, and you can respond if you like. It’s clear that Adam sinned and thus brought sin into the human race…in addition to this, it is clear that Jesus did not sin and that He offered Himself up as a perfect sin offering on Calvary for our sins. He took our place and became a curse so that we would be blessed. I imagine we agree on all of these. My question lies in the area of legal justification. I tend to lean in the direction of 1888 and here is why. If we look at the sanctuary, most notably the Ark of the Covenant, we see a small picture of the entire Plan of Redemption. Inside the ark there is the bowl of manna, the rod of Aaron, and the tablets of stone in the 10 commandments….the lid sitting above these is called the mercy seat…above the mercy seat are the two angels with their wings folded in towards each other, covering the mercy seat…their faces looking down towards the mercy seat. I believe this is where we get a picture of the entire plan of salvation. Here it goes…when heaven looks down as do the angels on the lid of the Ark, what do they see? They see that God has given man His law, but they continually break it (10 commandments), they see that God provides man with his daily bread, but then man complains at this providence (bowl of manna), they see how God provides leaders for His people, but we see man questioning God’s ability to designate leaders correctly (rod of Aaron)…As heaven looks down and sees all of this going on, what does God do? He sends the Lamb of God, Jesus Christ to be our sin offering. Jesus blood is spread over the mercy seat and now what does heaven see when they look down at mankind? They see that Jesus shed His blood for the entire human race. Because His blood is over the mercy seat…now I believe that Matthew 24’s call that the end will be just as Noah’s day includes a call to enter into an Ark. Only instead of Noah’s Ark, God is calling the world to enter into the Ark of the Covenant. It is a covenant that God has made with His own Son, Jesus. So it seems to indicate that not only did Jesus shed His blood for the entire world, but most notably for those who enter into His covenant between Him and God the Father. I believe this is essentially what 1888 is teaching…on the other hand I’ve yet to hear a salvation model from BRI independent of bashing 1888. Have a blessed break!
Hey Heather, Yeah…I know what you mean about Paul’s counsel in Romans 13. This has been a struggle for me to understand as well. Hitler is a good example but I can think of some others in more recent history. It’s texts like this that really challenge me, but I’m able to rest in the idea that God will sort it all out in the end. In the meantime I half to accept that this is His inspired Word…the only way I can handle the insane taxation in our country…and the blind ambition of globalists is to remember that God told us before hand that it would be like this. It has been a struggle to reconcile the horrific atrocities of Hitler, Stalin, and other mass murderers who have been in power to the idea that God allowed them to be there. My attempt to make it work in my mind includes the notion that there are a lot of things that are worse than death. I can’t wait for God to exercise His judgment…there are just so many injustices at the hands of civil leaders…the violence…the absolute depravity of the human existence…greed is rampant…but it’s encouraging to remember that God is not only going to bring it to a close soon, but that He also holds the keys to death. My one year as a hospital chaplain confronted me with how small we really are…how mortal we are…how humble Jesus became. This life is but a blink…so we can rest in peace as the tyrannical tyrants build their castles in the sand down here…in the wastelands of earth’s twilight…they can have it.
A Response to Rudolph Sterling’s comments on Romans 15…
I appreciated your comments on Romans 15 and the importance that we are not to be people pleasers, but humble unselfish workers for Christ’s sake. If we had more concern for the well-being of each other, not only in our faith, but also in our everyday lives, we would have such a church that resembled the early church. As for the tendency that some people have in “trying to work their way to salvation”…I think they want to work for it because they don’t want to arrive at the humble conclusion that they are completely “helpless” and “incapable” of helping themselves…realizing instead that they must humble themselves and accept that Jesus alone can save them. They might believe in Jesus, but to really enter into the heart of Jesus, and have Him do the same in our own…requires a humble surrender and realization of our “helpless” condition. We must arrive at the place where we’re ok with totally depending on Him for everything. We live in the midst of a self-dependent 21st century world that is so proud of being independent…the idea of not being able to “do” for ourselves…flies completely in the face of almost everything we interact with in our culture. May God help us as we endeavor to be in the world but not of it.
Response to Jeff Carlson comment #10…We are way too proud of ourselves as SDA...it’s a sobering reminder for me to consider what am I doing even now as a Seminarian in dispensing the grace of God in accordance to the light that I have been entrusted with. It reminds me of the Pharisees in the NT where they say to Jesus, “We are sons of Abraham, we have never been slaves”…I think more than ever we need to preach Jesus Christ and Him crucified. This is the only way that we as Adventists will ever come out of our lukewarm funk. It’s only by spending that time with Him will we grow to hate sin and to love others. Will we ever reach perfection in character? If we do…we’ll never know it…but if God wants to not only impute His righteousness, but also impart it to people, then that’s up to Him. I’ve pretty much given up on the idea of figuring out the concept of perfection. What I do understand is that I am to focus my heart…my attention on Jesus…and as I do I will become more like Him. But the entire time He’s the one that really does all the work…I only cooperate. While I would never preach perfection…I think we are to “perfect” our character by receiving Jesus and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. May God help us to live according to the light we know…not only to receive salvation, but that we may glorify God in a greater way.
This comment is on Tim’s reflection
On the law and chapter7
Great writings by Paul in Romans 7
Verses 12 and 13 explain that the law itself is holy and just and good. How can that be? Did the law, which is good, cause our doom? No! Sin used what was good to bring about our own condemnation in order that we may see how terrible sin really is. Indeed - the law itself is holy and right and good. But, we cannot keep the law of our own selves. By sin we are tempted to break the law but thanks be to Jesus, in verse 6: But now we are delivered from the law, for we died with Christ, and we are no longer captive to its power. We now serve God through and by the Spirit! We are indeed free!
Comment on Heather Barbian Romans 12
How can we overcome evil when we know that doing good is heaping burning coals on their head? This is a very good question. However I the Paul’s emphases is on doing good rather than exacting evil for evil. I also don’t think the term “heaping burning coals on their head” is a term for revenge nor is it a negative result on the part on the recipient. I think what Paul means is this; if we return good to those who give us evil it will awaken their consciousness and their guilt. They will see that their evil did not have the desired effect on us. They will also see the love of God which will afford them an occasion to think and possible change their behavior.
Rudolph Sterling
Response Luke’s post on: Whidden’s section on perfection.
Thanks for your analyses of this chapter and on the whole issue of perfection. I was raised in a similar situation where a particular elder would preach perfection and sinless living. I also agree with you that trying to be perfect if very frustration. The frustration we one realized that he/she continues to sin no matter how hard they try not to. I am not saying that we should not try our best to live right but this must be done in dependence on God who knows that we humans lack the capacity to be sinless. In fact as long as we have this nature we will remain sinful until Christ transforms us at His coming. In the mean time we should cultivate a meaningful growing relationship with Christ.
Rudolph Sterling
Response to jjwalper: Romans 14 The Law of Liberty”
Thanks for your post. You are making some good points and I appreciate your emphases on what is important as oppose to dabbling in the abstract over and over again. However one must bear in mind that we are all not at the same level in our thinking; therefore what may not seem important to one person or a group may have eternal significance to another. Whereas I agree that we should be careful not to destroy the faith of those who are weak it is also important that the learn and deal with some of the difficult issues so that they can grow and become strong. Some time we seem to act as if the week should remain week for ever. I think the important thing is to find a balance and take things in stages.
Rudolph Sterling
Reflection 15
On the subject of perfection and closing events, Ellen White felt it important to write of the importance of developing characters that would stand the scrutiny of the pre-advent judgment and the time of trouble which will be a time like none ever in this earth’s history. For any to feel that they can make it without Christ is falsehood and great deception.
Ellen G. White declared that "the shortness of time is frequently urged as an incentive for seeking righteousness and making Christ our friend." But she went on to urge that "this should not be the great motive with us; for it savors of selfishness." She then asked: "Is it necessary that the terrors of the day of God should be held before us, that we may be compelled to right action through fear?" Her forthright answer was that "it ought not to be so." This statement was made prior to 1888.
Despite the rather frightening descriptions of the awfulness of the close of probation, the time of trouble, and the day of Christ's personal appearing (GC 613-652), she could urge the "love, mercy, and compassion" of Jesus as one who will "walk with" believers and "fill" their "path with light."
Complementing the theme of love (not fear) as the great motive, were numerous statements urging that now—"today"—is the time of preparation for the trying times ahead.
Sister White wrote: "Live the life of faith day by day. Do not become anxious and distressed about the time of trouble, and thus have a time of trouble beforehand. Do not keep thinking, `I am afraid I shall not stand in the great testing day.' You are to live for the present, for this day only. Tomorrow is not yours. Today you are to maintain the victory over self.
I don’t know any better way to sum up what I think should be the motivating factor, than to share the lyrics from a song by Jonathan Butler: ‘Falling In Love With Jesus.”
Falling in love with Jesus
Falling in love with Jesus
Falling in love with Jesus
Was the best thing I ever, ever done
(verse 2)
In His arms I feel protected
In His arms never disconnected (no no)
In His arms I feel protected
There's no place I'd rather rather be.
The Means of Perfection
The means of perfection received only one noticeable development after 1888—a strong emphasis on the transforming work of the Holy Spirit. Though this was not a new theme, it is clear that Minneapolis unleashed a veritable flood of statements to the effect that the Holy Spirit is the great bearer of power to transform lives into the image of Christ's perfection.
I will conclude my reflection with the words of Jesus in John 15:5 ……”For without me ye can do nothing.”
Best wishes as we “follow on to know the Lord.” Have A Blessed Holiday!
I like Mika's "Calvinistic theme song," that's funny. It helps to remember what Calvin's theology is about also, God's sovereignty and predestination as God's act of sovereignty. It could be better though if you would sing it for class.
Response to Walter's judging others,
I grew up in the Adventist bubble my whole life but I found that I liked being around other people than just Adventists once I got some life experience outside of Adventism. I found myself being a lot less judgmental and a lot more loving when I got to know these people. I wasn't hung up on whether they liked pork or not, or had a beer, but interested in who they were and sharing who I was with them.
Responding to Desmond C. Haye comment on the article, Angel Rodriquez’s article entitled, “Adam and the human race in the writings of E.G. White. I want to emphasize something Desmond said about the awesomeness of Christ's sacrifice. It is hard for me to understand Christ's grace to Adam and Eve after they directly disobeyed God's command. Probably because I see some of myself in Adam and Eve and am so amazed at what Christ has done for me. Even though I don't fully understand it I pray that I am fully thankful for it.
In response to Marcus post about responding to the light we have: Praise God that God holds us accountable to only what we know or we would all lose out. As I was thinking about this I wonder sometimes if what I know and hold my self accountable to is a dangerous thing. For instance throughout history people persecuted others because they thought they were doing the right thing with what they knew. It reminds me of all the theological arguments people get into and the damage that is done. Maybe if we were kinder people it wouldn't be so hard on us when we find out we didn't know a lot to begin with. Thanks for giving me something to reflect on.
Response to anonymous in reference to perfection. I appreciated the comment you made that there is no one that is perfect, we are all fallible. You mentioned Ellen White says this about herself. This has been something that I resonate with. When I look at the Biblical characters none of them were perfect (except Jesus), but in some ways we hold them up as the perfect example. In Sabbath School I remember singing, "Dare to be a Daniel," which I don't think is a bad song, but Daniel was human just like the rest of us, it was God that made him great. And I think we miss that sometimes when we look at spiritual people that it is God that makes them great.
In response to Rudolph Sterlings post on the BRI article on “Christ saved the Human race.” You help to answer a question of mine that deals with why we can sin but why we can't save ourselves. In your post you mentioned that Christ not only saves us but He is at work to help us accept that salvation by the Holy Spirit. After 30 years of life I don't believe I ever thought of that. It is helpful to understand how far we have fallen and how much God loves us and is striving to save us.
In response to Jamie Peterson's post on 1 Timothy 4:10 by Ángel Manuel Rodríguez. You make an interesting point that the devil deals in absolutes. I suppose I don't have as much trouble with absolutes as I do with the fact that the devil is a liar. Absolutes are not in themselves evil but the devil has a way to twist things whether they be in absolute terms or not. Your point on the danger of absolutes among the different camps in Adventism is so true. If we weren't so stubborn to hold on to truth we might be able to see more of it.
Responding to Tim's comment on Romans 4 “(Jesus) who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.” Thanks Tim for pointing this verse out to me also. I didn't catch this verse and I have been over it a few times this semester. I agree with you that it shows salvation as being more that just the cross but includes the resurrection also. I already believed this but I don't know the belief had come from Romans.
Hey Luke I really appreciated your statement:
"In a way we are looking out for one another rather than competing, testing, and judging one another."
I think this is something I'm learning as well. Community is so important that God always worked in that context as far as I can see in the Bible. Its hard for us in our individualistic society but I think its an important lesson for us all to learn. Peace....
---------------------> Jeff Carlson
Respond to Dan.
the human sin required that God need to die in oreder to rescue humanity from evil. so Jesus no only gave his life on the cross, but give up everything even the father rejected Him
really all this is mistery and human words are not enough to describe such things
COMMENTS
LUKE's ASSIGMENTS Rom 14
it seems to me very Good reation to the topic of judging one another, I imagine that you have previous experience in relation of what people think about others. But what you say is truth, sometimes we put road blocks to people, making harder for then sucess in daily spiritual living.
Respond to Dan
look Dan I could not understand very well you point regarding the original sin. Nevertheless came into my mind a question that I should ask to the teacher, in relation to Jesus human nature so thanks.
Respond to
Jose Montenegro.
I just want to share this thought that I got in other class.
Sin has no origin, no cause, and therefore no excuse. It is not a being, entity or creature; it is the active principle of annihilation, a movement opposite from creation in opposition to God. It ravages only when the positive moral life exists. It is a stupid, gratuitous cause of evil and death, and the Bible says it will eventually actively consume itself.
Respond to Dan # 3
Good comments I just want to add this:
"God does not create sin nor arbitrarily harden hearts. Rather humans exercise their freedom and humans harden their own hearts. God gives them opportunity to either harden or soften their hearts through experiences they encounter
God tells them that Pharaoh would harden his heart. Only the 7th time did God intervene and harden the heart of Pharaoh. We have a certain limit, a point in which we cannot return to God. When we refuse one too many times that is when the unpardonable sin takes place." hnd.
Jose said:
"We as Christians should realize that we are far from the true understand of sin. Ellen G. White said: 'We must remember that our hearts are naturally depraved and we are unable of ourselves to pursue a right course.'"
I think you are right on. Its nice to see that people in our church are starting to realize that though we are "right" we do not know everything and will learn more and more for eternity. We are becoming a little more humble as a church and in doing so are becoming more "right." Peace...
-------------------> Jeff Carlson
In response to Dan and what Christ did on the cross. I agree that it is beyond our knowledge what Christ fully accomplished on the cross. I am still pondering what it meant when He said "it is finished." Especially in light of what we have been learning about salvation being in the past, present, and future and that is only one aspect of what happened on the cross let alone what is happening in the sanctuary. I suppose its important to always have a since of wonder and curiosity when approaching salvation.
Responding to anonymous (aka Jeff)on the article, Why Did Jesus Die? How God Saves Us. I to see the problems with breaking down a reality into little bits causing it to no longer have any meaning other than a stage for an argument. I am ok living with mystery. When I think about it there are only a few things that I truly believe, much of the other we don't have the absolutes to say it is this way or that way.
Now that our doctrine of salvation class has ended, I can say that biblical salvation as it is systematic understood appears to be tridimensional. It focused in the past, present and future of human history. It overlaps theological concept such as justification, sanctification and glorification. In consequence, it produces a great tension between the two great reformed view, namely, Calvinistic and Armenian or in other words divine sovereignty and human freedom.
Dr Hanna in the beginning of our class handled us two pages containing eight types of biblical texts on salvation and righteousness. They could be order in two types of theological school, the Calvinistic and the Armenian. But to complicate the tension of the class Dr Hanna gave us another page. It showed that biblical salvation has to be understood as an event completed in the past or objective effective to humans. As an event in the present which is subjectively conditional to the acceptance of a past event or objective guarantee of Christ death. Also as a future assurance to those who believe and works toward the restoration of all things.
comment on Doctrine of Salvation
during this semester we have been analyzing the doctrine of salvation, but it seems to me that is not ease to have complete understanding of the subject, however, this class has provide the sources and ideas for us to have a model of salvation in which is important to take in account the diferent point of view of scholars have in the subject. As spected there is not final answers, but I think that some progress have been acomplished.
As you may notice, this tension led us to a great debate during our two semester periods. It impelled us to study and wrestle with both issue. Some of us like me, was lost during the first section, until the time Dr Hanna proposed more openly a salvific model that may cover those issues. It removes the traditional Adventist model continual process of salvation. There is no a sequence order of justification, sanctification and then glorification. Now it has been placed Justification, sanctification and glorification as a past, present and future event. That caused to understand the sovereignty of God and Human freedom as a past, present and future as well. Because when we traditionally talk about justification in the past we assumed as it is an objective righteousness imputation that God gave to humanity through Jesus Christ. But since it present too it means that it is a subjective imparted righteousness given by God to those who have previously believes. So now Justification is playing both roll, as imputed and imparted righteousness. This could be said with sanctification and glorification. However it appears to me that talking about glorification as a past event modified and challenge all possible soteorogical models, since justification seems to be effective to a human being nor to prior to existence.
Nevertheless it was a complicated paradigm that it has been difficult to me to understand so to explain, I would like to suggest that theme and subject like this should be brought out more often. It provides a sense of dependence in God and a deep desired to ask the Holy Spirit as a guide and teacher.
As I read Rev. 3:20 “Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with them, and they with me.” I am reminded of a story of an artist who inspired by this passage created the famous piece of Jesus standing in front of a door and knocking, making vivid the description found in the verse just mentioned.
Man’s freedom and God’s salvation. First we must recognize that we are sinners, born with this infirmity by nature and by choice. By nature because that is our nature, falling nature descending from our father Adam. Rom. 3:10 “…there is no on righteous, not even one.” Isaiah 1:6 “From the sole of your foot to the top of your head there is no soundness, only wounds and welts and open sores, not cleansed or bandaged or soothed with oil.” This is the first step in the salvation processes. To recognize that one is a sinner. But that is free will. I have a choice to determine that fact. I can live my life wondering this world and never admit that I am a sinner and in need of a savior. To recognize that I am a sinner is to consciously or unconsciously demonstrate that man needs a higher power for salvation. This recognition makes way for God to perform the miracle of change our lives into some thing better. Give us the hope and assurance of salvation. Does this mean God can’t do anything before I admit I am a sinner? Yes, because as in the Revelation Jesus knocks, he does not knock down the door, and No, because even though we do not admit our condition and admit we need help, God presents us daily with little glimpses of a better life.
This is where God’s salvation comes into play. God is constantly seeking us, consistently giving us open doors to come in and sit with him. He may use people, events, things and even animals to catch our attention, why because that is his nature. He loves us, and because he does he wants to save us. Rom. 8:1-2 states God purpose and means to accomplish our salvation. Through Christ and only through Christ we are saved.
In the article “The Dynamics of Salvation” from the Adventist Biblical Research website, it said this: “There is no merit in faith itself. We are not saved by faith but by grace: "For by grace you have been saved through faith" (Eph. 2:8); "There is nothing in faith that makes it our saviour."-The SDA Bible Commentary, Ellen G. White Comments, vol. 6, p. 1071. Instead, faith is the means, the instrument, by which we claim God's gift from salvation (Selected Messages, book 1, p. 363). The cross alone is our salvation; faith is our personal acceptance of the cross as God's decisive act in our behalf.
Comment on Heather asigments
I like you comment, on the subject of Adam sin, is true that we inherit sinful nature from Adam, all this things regarding the subject of sin is really a mistery but thanks God for Jesus and the cross who is the answer fo r every mistery.
This comment is regarding Freddy’s reflection on Angel Manuel Rodriquez ; Christ Saved the
the human race.
I agree with you because God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life. Acceptance and believing is the key. Faith unlocks the door.
Dt.25:1 If there is a dispute between men and they go to court, and the judges decide their case, and they justify the righteous and condemn the wicked..
Justify means the opposite of condemn. In court the judge declares the accused innocent, that he is righteous and not subject to punishment.
Pro.17:15 He who justifies the wicked, and he who condemns the righteous, both of them are an abomination to the Lord.
This verse, in addressing unjust judges, also shows that justify means the opposite of condemn.
Justification is a judicial act in which a judge declares the accused righteous.
Legal universal justification implies that all human beings come into the world legally saved, pardoned, justified. If it is true that every human being who has been and will be born on this planet was present in Christ when he died and that they all were legally justified, then those who are not yet born have already been justified. The Bible makes clear that every one who is born into this world of sin is in need of the Savior. We are by nature born in sin and shapen in iniquity.We deserve to die (Eph 2:3). It is true that because of Christ we do not have to die, but that does not mean that we were already legally saved or justified before or when we were born.
In response to Mika - 11/06/2007 9:50 PM
Thanks for the feedback Mika. I think that is an important distinction between knowing or not knowing the Father's will when we pray that prayer, and that is definitely a significant difference between our situations and that of Jesus in Gethsemane. I don't know about your life, but it seems that we are often looking to find out "God's will" for our lives, as if that is the struggle. The example of Jesus shows us though, that knowing God's will is only half the issue. The other half is being willing to follow through, to submit our will to His, especially when that might mean we go though a bunch of stuff we really don't want to go through (like living in Michigan instead of BC:). God bless Mika, have a great Christmas break!
in response to freddy 12/12/2007 5:39
I agree that freedom is a huge part of God's dealings with the universe. however, in the context of the 'risk' God took, I was struck by how Dr. Hanna talked about that risk in class today. It was not a risk with an unknown outcome, God knows the end from the beginning, even if he does break into time and exist along side of us in the 'now.' I'm not sure what word to use instead of risk, but 'risk' or chance' do not seem appropriate for a know outcome, even if the outcome (in short term) is painful or negative. I agree with the human freedom part and that God could not have made us all robots and still have the possibility of righteous or authentic love from robots. I would be more comfortable that God took an informed and difficult decision, He made a 'hard call' to keep the universe free at any cost, a cost that He would have to pay.... Like I said, I still don't have a good word for it, but 'risk' or 'chance' to me implies ambiguous knowledge of the outcomes, and I don't think God is ambiguous at all about his knowledge.
in response to Daniel Ocampo11/08/2007 6:27 PM
Daniel, I appreciated your well thought out and lengthy post for Nov 8. I especially appreciated your reflection on EGW's comments about the bi-nature of Christ and how it is a mystery that cannot be explained. That he was “affected by sin but not infected with it." A little later you quoted her as explaining that the “key temptation for Christ was the same as it is for all humans—the desire to go it alone and depend upon self rather than divinely imparted power from above.” As I have just had a semester 'from Hades' i am still learning how to rely on God more. For me, part of the challenge is also to live in harmony with the laws of nature as EGW talks about and not being so 'workaholic' I don't think this quote can be used to justify our workaholism though and having the HS compensate for our lack balance, but rather in a spiritual sense to help us overcome pride and sinfulness with His supernatural help.
response to Mika 11/11/2007 12:04 AM
The beautiful feet of those who bring good news.... I find that all the disagreement between BRI and 1888 committee is after a time tiresome. I think it's great that we have the freedom and time to dig into the Bible and discuss back and forth these topics, but isn't there a point where you say 'this discussion is not really going anywhere, maybe I should spend some time in ministry.' I especially find that doing basic Bible studies with new believers is great for bringing you back down to theological earth. We can spend our whole lives in scholarly debates, or we can 'know enough' to bring others to Christ. Not to say that 'know enough' and stop learning, but where we have the wisdom to focus on 'practical theology' and spend undue time splitting hairs with people who are already quite set in their ways. NEhow, this is coming from a kids pastor, so yes, with kids you can't sit around and split hairs very long before you have a zoo on your hands. Well, that's my two cents on the whole BRI vs. 1888 debate for this week.
in response to Heather 11/11/2007 7:13 PM
In Romans 10 there are some beautiful passages about God's promise of Salvation to those who call on His name and believe in Him. I'm not sure what to do with vs. 20 though, when Paul quotes Isaiah saying, “I was found by those who did not seek me; I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me.” The revealing part I see through Jesus, but how can you be found by those not seeking you? Would this be like Gentiles living their lives in their own religions around the Roman empire and then Paul shows up with message of Christ? Perhaps they were not seeking a new faith or a Messiah, but upon hearing Paul's message of Christ, they now found Someone who they did not even know they were looking for. Hmmm, I'll have to reflect on that one more.
In response to Luke 12/10/2007 9:47 AM
Luke said...
"Understanding salvation in terms of the past, present, and future has been a helpful tool in my understanding of salvation "
"Salvation is not cheap and seeing salvation as a process is also a safeguard against cheap grace because it requires in us growth and change. So yes I have been saved if I choose, I am saved if I choose, and I will be saved if I choose... I am now seeing it as a process throughout history."
Luke, I agree that it has been good to look at the past/present/future aspects of Salvation (as well as sanctification and glorification). I definitely see how different Bible verses give different time frames for 'when' Salvation happens. I also enjoy looking at the process of Salvation, not just the event. I still think that often in that process many people do a have a 'defining moment' where they do fully surrender to God for the first time. However, I have discovered the hard way that this needs to be an ongoing and repeating event. That does not take away from the specialness of that big surrender, just like graduating form college does not diminish my HS graduation, but it protects from ever thinking that I have 'arrived' and helps me understand why I am still imperfect. There is a favorite quote of mine that I put on some of my emails. This is how it goes:
"...Am I no longer young, and still not half-perfect? Let me keep my mind on what matters, which is my work, which is mostly standing still and learning to be astonished..." Mary Oliver
Hey Eric -
I appreciated your comment. I agree that it is exciting and releaving to know that I am not stuck the way I am!
If Heppenstall was saying that we are stuck this way as in that we are helpless to stop doing the actions of sin then I would have a serious problem with his ideas as well. If we are not able to keep from doing what we do than God is a jerk for holding us accountable for messing up - I can say that because I dont believe that God is that way.
What I got out of Heppenstall is that though we can grow to maturity and even get to the point where we dont commit acts of sin we will have our bent human natures until we are changed "in the twinkling of an eye" when Jesus comes. I think this idea is very Biblical and also supported by Ellen White as well. Though we can grow to the point that we dont give into our sinful natures we will not be free of our tendencies until Jesus comes. That is what I understood as not being able to be "sinless." Anyway hope that is helpful. Peace...
-----------------> Jeff Carlson
Dale Baker
Comment on Freddy’s post 12/12/07
Freddy stated in his comment that “God in His immense power and infinite love gave us the gift of salvation, in exchange of our faith.” Of a truth we can not do any thing to save our selves. It is only as we cooperate with God, and He empowers us that we can partake of his grace. Our faith is the only thing that we have to give to God. But at the same time it is God that empowers us to use, and give that faith to accept Him. This is in no way an acceptance of the Calvinistic view, rather it is to show that God is very integral in our salvation, but we too have a role to play to accept this grace.
Dale Baker
Comment on Walter’s Post 12/12/07
I like the comment that Walter posted in regard to the phrase obedience of faith, and the fact that we are not saved by works. Truly, through the semester we all have wrestled with the topic of salvation and the way we are saved. Consequently, with the issue at hand, there is great need today to explain in a clear and balance way the tension that exist between faith and works in regards to our salvation. As it is often said we are saved by a faith that works, not by a works that have faith.
Comment #10
This short reflection is in response to Jamie Peterson’s week ten submission. I appreciate the view reflected in the paper about the idea of faith. I never viewed or thought about looking at faith in this way. God put faith in us; therefore, it is not us who are producing good works it is God working in us that is producing the works. I agree with this view up to a certain point. I believe that we have a part to play in relation to God and humankind. I am not convinced that God arbitrarily puts faith in us. Although not specified in the paper, it seems we do not have to allow God to put the faith in us.
The author of the paper stated Ellen White that the law will take care of itself and that the law have been worked on so long that it has become as dry as the hills of Gilboa. I feel that everything that’s in the Bible should be discussed, not debated. If it’s in the Bible, I feel that it should be an everlasting discussion or at least until a plausible understanding is reached. The truth is that problems don’t care of themselves. Trusting in the merits of Christ, in my estimation is not saying that the law shouldn’t be discussed. A lot of times, a surface reading of a text or not trying to understand the message of someone else, can lead to a great misunderstanding of what really being said. The question is “Does the law saves us?” The answer many will automatically give is No! However, if it shows us sin, then we can correct it. If it doesn’t show us sin, how do we know whether or not we need to make any corrections. Jamie stated that the law shows us how much we need God. Although it in a sense the law don’t save us, it in a sense does save in that it show us the need we have for God. So, if not by the law, how would we know that we need God? Does the law save us? In a sense it does.
Comment #11
This comment is on Ray Edward’s response to the reading. I really appreciate Ray’s insight on his idea about conversion. I really liked the way he used the cup and water as a metaphor to express his view. In his metaphor, he expresses the idea that a person is converted in stages. I agree that this happens in some cases but to say that this is the only way conversion takes place is, in my estimation, limiting the power of the Holy Spirit. I believe that a person can fully and totally be converted when the person accepts Christ’s call. I see this in Paul’s conversion but it was not the case with Peter and others. True I believe Paul had evidence of the Holy Spirit, which was the case when Stephen’s face lit up like an angel’s face. It may be true that people continue to look for and discover God’s will for their lives once they are converted but they are fully converted, nevertheless.
I agree that a bigger model of salvation is needed, not only because our language is limited but also because a lot of Bible subjects and topics need deep study and research. He says that Paul states that we are only really saved when we are physically resurrected. He goes on to say that until then we groan and await our salvation. I am not being harsh or judgmental but I see an oxymoron in his thoughts. First, I would like to investigate being saved from being really saved. I don’t necessarily see where the saved as it relates to salvation should have any other adjective to try to change its meaning. I believe that saved is saved. A play on words doesn’t change the meaning of the word. When Paul was ready about to be martyred, he said there is a crown that is waiting for me in glory. He then states not for him only but for all those who wait Christ’s appearing. To say that we are only really saved when we are physically resurrected, is to say that all people who Christ is going to take to heaven are going to die. This is contradictory of Scripture. Besides, when someone dies his/her salvation is sealed. We know that those who die in the Lord will be raised in the Lord and we know that they will inherit salvation because we have faith that Christ is coming back because He promised that He is.
Comment #12
This comment is in response to Tim’s reflection on Romans 12 and the BRI document. I agree with Tim. I don’t see where any farther comment is needed on Tim’s reflection. Although I agree with his idea that it seems to be easier for a believer to be saved in the company of other believers rather than by being an isolated Christian, I also believe that being in the company of others doesn’t make the determination of whether or not salvation is harder or easier. Once a person allows Christ to reign supreme in his or her life, he or she will be able to display a Christ-like character whether he or she is in the company of other believers or not. I for one need the fellowship of other believers after wrestling with the non-believers. God, I believe, has called us to do most of our witnessing among non-believers but to fellowship with the believers for rejuvenation.
I also agree with Tim on his interpretation on the BRI document. I believe that both parties were saying that a person needs Christ’s grace in order to be saved. The disagreement is over the status of a person before he or she accepts Christ’s grace. Somethings, I believe although need to be studied doesn’t need to be debated. However, I believe that a person is either saved or lost. There are no in-betweens. At the same time, it’s not, in my estimation, humankind’s place to try to figure out whether a person is saved or lost.
Comment #13
This comment is in response to Dale Baker’s reflection on the BRI document and on Whidden chapter 13. I feel that Dale summed the whole BRI document and chapter 13 out of Whidden in very few understandable words. Dale stated Ellen White that we are only saved by through Christ by faith. This is what the Bible says. Yes, we are only saved by Christ. There is nothing that we can do in and of ourselves to gain salvation. The Bible lets us know that all of our righteousness is as filthy rags. Therefore, we have to have someone else’s righteousness covering us. That someone else is Christ. In Him we have our beginning and our end. Salvation is not of us. The underlining idea of this whole great controversy is worship and the battle is between Christ and Satan.
It is true that every person from the first man created to the last person to be born comes into this world needing a personal Savior. Christ is the justifier of humankind and we can only receive His justification if allow Him to put faith in our hearts and accept His atoning sacrifice. We are born needing Christ because of sin. Not that we have committed sin when we are first born but because we are sinners by nature and if we live long enough we will eventually commit sin. Christ’s merit makes up and/or covers our deficiencies. Therefore without Christ’s merits, we are all hopeless.
Comment #14
This comment is in response to Rudolph Sterling’s reflection on Romans 14 and the BRI document. Romans 14 say just as Rudy states. Rudy give a good synopsis of his understanding of Romans 14 and the BRI document. I believe there is a need for us to maintain a degree of unity within the Christian realm, at least among the same denominations. Paul in his advice to the Romans were telling them that people are different but even with their being different there are some things that they can do to get, hold, and maintain a balance of unity. Those who eat certain things need not bother those who don’t and vice versa. This is what causes disunity. When people disagree on each other rather than on an issue or when one tries to exact his or her views upon another while not being open to other views, is what causes disunity and strife among people. The people who have been justified should esteem others above themselves. Not because others are better than them, but because the person realizes what Christ has done for them, personally. Because of this, the one who has been justified will put other above himself or herself. In short, Paul alludes to doing whatever it takes to unify people and keep peace among them this is what ought to be done.
Rudy makes a good point by stating that people should see that evolution is not real by looking at the reality of original sin. However, the fact of the matter is that many people can see original sin as an off shoot or even as evidence for evolution. Many scientist and even religious people claim that animals were long destroying, killing and eating each other, before man ever existed. I wish not to get into the theory of evolution. There is a great concern among believers that plagues their thoughts about the idea sin and perfection. This too is another area where a lot of research is conducted but a disparity of beliefs is shared among believers.
Comment #15
I want to thank Matena Kefa for opening up my eyes and getting me to see something that I never saw before. I never thought to use the Gentiles as an example for the offering the priests were making in the temple as a sacrifice to God. I would like to extend what was said a little farther and say that the Gentiles were being sacrificed. I don’t mean that they were literary being killed but they were a living sacrifice as Paul said earlier in Romans. I believe that we, not as pastors and teachers, per se but as Christian should seek out the Gentiles and straying Jews to bring them back into the sheepfold that they too can present themselves to God as a living sacrifice. This in my estimation is one of the ideas about salvation. Not what we have done, but what we have allowed Christ to do through us.
While I appreciate the comment, I believe that Matena was mistaken on one fact. Yes, Paul was sent to the Gentiles but so was Peter. If my memory serves me correctly, Peter went to the Gentiles first, to the house of Cornelius. The idea here stems from the fact that everybody needs to hear the gospel message. Salvation is for everyone. It is for the Gentiles and the Greeks just as well as it are for the Jews. It made no difference to Paul just like it shouldn’t make any difference to us about a person’s nationality. We soon forget that not all Gentiles were of the same country and nationality. When Peter spoke at Pentecost, there were a number of representatives from different nationalities there. Our duty as Christian is to present the gospel to as many as we can. However we should make the gospel as attractive as we can without watering it down. People need to hear the gospel truth just like it is presented in the Bible, in the life of Christ, and in the life of believers. It is our duty to find and use methods to minister the gospel in an attractive way to make it acceptable to postmodern people living in this postmodern world.
In his commentary of Chapter 13 of Romans Rudy wrote:There seem to be three good lessons in the 13th chapter of Romans; here the apostle enlarges more upon his precepts than he had done in the foregoing chapter, finding them more needful to be fully pressed. Lessons in: subjection to lawful authority, justice and love to our brethren, sobriety and godliness in ourselves. We are here taught how to conduct ourselves towards the higher powers, intimating their authority, including not only the king as supreme, but all inferior magistrates under him; not just the persons that are in that power, but the place of power itself, or the office of the power.
I agree with Rudy on this matter too often we respect the person and not the office, as a result we are people focus in this regard rather than dealing with the position and office.
Rudolph reflects on Romans 14 and the BRI document. Rudy give a brief synopsis of his viewpoint of Romans 14 and the BRI document. I share the view of unity, however the purpose for unity, I believe is important in order to establish the way forward. For instance uniting with ecumenical movements and organizations that promote systems that collide directly with our beliefs is unwise. Paul in his advice to the Romans that people are different but, being means that there are different things that they can do to maintain unity. He spoke about the contention between what some eat versus others, the question is what is really referring to in the statement? Those who eat certain things need not bother those who don’t and vice versa. The people who have been justified should esteem others above themselves as well as esteem themselves high as Ambassadors of the kingdom of Heaven.
I agree with Freddy that God gave us the gift of his saving power through Jesus Christ. Indeed we are called to respond to that gift in faith. Our response to the opportunity immediately and daily becomes a witness to those with whom we come in contact. Therefore, we are not just called to accept, but also to live.Interesting, quite interesting!
Garfield
Jeff Carlson comment #10 is reality. As Christians and as church members we cannot embrace ourselves and our achievements to the detriment of the purpose for which we are called. We are responsible to recognize that individually and collectively our achievements are simply through the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and nothing else. We must therefore rejoice only in Ebenezer- For hitherto hath the Lord brought us.
Garfield
This comment is in response to Jonathan Russell's reflection of How Perfect is Perfect? --- Or--
Is Christian Perfection Possible?
Many Jewish believers, having stepped out of Judaism into Christianity want to reverse their course in order to escape persecution by their countrymen.
The writer of Hebrews exhorts them to "go on to perfection" Heb 6:1 (KJV) Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentence from dead works, and of faith toward God.
His appeal is based on the superiority of Christ over the Judiac system. Christ is better that the angels, for they worship Him. He is better than Moses, for He created him. He is better than the Aaronic priesthood, for His sacrifice was once for all time. He is better than the law, for He meditates a better covenant. In short there is more to be gained in Christ than to be lost in Judaism.
Pressing on in Christ produces tested faith, self-discipline, and a visible love seen in good works.
This is a general comment from Steps to Christ:
The church of Christ is God’s appointed agency for the salvation of men.
It’s mission is to carry the gospel to the world. And the obligation rests upon all Christians. Everyone, to the extent of his talent and opportunity is to fulfill the Savior’s commission. The love of Christ, revealed to us, makes us debtors to all who know Him not. God has given us light, not for ourselves alone, but to shed upon them.
Blessings & Peace!
Responding to Garfield Comment
I aggree with you that when God counts one a perfect person, he does it in a sense that, he no longer cherishes sin in his life or commits overt sin deliberately or willfully planned.
Responding to Motten's comment
I agree with you that many who claim to be seeking God come with their eyes shut and their ears closed so that they do not know when God is talking to them because they have already made up their minds that their views and opinions are right and don’t want to hear anything to the contrary.
Responding to Luke's comment
I am in aggrement with you that Salvation is ultimately much bigger than me and my decision, but it doesn’t make my decision to accept Christ any less important, it points more to God’s goodness.
Responding to Andy's Comment
I appreciate your comment that
Responding to Andy
I love your comment that our belief in God is evidenced by our obedience and trust and this is credited to us as righteousness.
Comment on Betty Toussaint’s reflection paper 4
Thanks for the reflection paper and I totally agree with you in the relationship between our faith and obedience to God’s law. It reflects a genuine love of a repented sinner to his Lord and Savior who gave His life for salvation of men. Jesus Himself often said in Scripture that: “If you love Me, keep My commandments.” It is not in a legalistic manner in which other may perceive but it flows out of a responsive love to our Creator God. Appreciated your reflection.
My comment is in regard to Earl Reflection #7 paper were you said “we need to come to a clear doctrinal understanding about perfection. . . help this already tough journey be a little more bearable.”
I can feel your concern Earl and admit to you I have felt the same way. Through my days of study and growing in my relationship with Christ I can say now that just as I have to believe and have faith that I have to put on Christ righteousness to be righteous I have to believe and have faith that only if I put on Christ perfection I will be perfect. Not the perfection of my doing but being a believer in Christ life-sacrifice for me. As far as sin in my life, I sin daily either knowingly or sometimes maybe unknowingly. As I grow in my relationship with Christ I choose not to willfully sin, but if I do sin I immediately remember I have an advocate (Jesus) because I am not depending on my life to be sinless, but on His intercession for me and the conviction of the Holy Spirit that I will desire to confess, and repent, and turn from my sin(s). It was stated well about Noah, Abraham, and Job was declared “perfect men” but their lives were far from being sinless. Remember who declared them perfect and why? They had an on-going relationship with Jesus the Christ. We need to work daily on our relationship and just have faith in Jesus and the scripture(s) just to give one you know but may not take at face value as we say, “Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” Matthew 5:48. NASB Again not our perfection but Christ perfection>
My comment is to Ednah: Ednah I agree with you that the BRI-Salvation by Faith was a good article. In that article I could see as well how grace is given to a sinner like me and I thank God that it doesn’t start with my works. But as I remember our class discussion about the terms passive and active, in this article and in your reflection paper I could see the passive term being used in Rom 11:6. Then however I see the active term mentioned in your reflection as you stated, “we as human beings have to do nothing, apart from following our master as He leads.” The second half of your statement is active, something we have to do. So we are involved in the process of Salvation by faith and that’s good news for me that nothing is forced on me it is of my free will I choose. Ednah I see works as a bi-product of my being grateful for the grace God gives me.
Post a Comment